HELP! I’m trying to build a comprehensive head to head database of the traditional derbies. Your assistance would be appreciated. Please comment below or email me at be***@te******.net. Thanks!
| School | vs School | Since | Played | Won | Lost | Draw |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Paarl Gim | Paarl BH | 1915 | 87 | 41 | 37 | 9 |
| Grey College | Paarl BH | 36 | 29 | 5 | 2 | |
| Grey College | Paul Roos | 46 | 36 | 7 | 3 | |
| Grey College | Paarl Gim | 31 | 25 | 3 | 3 | |
| Grey College | Grey High | 49 | 39 | 7 | 3 | |
| Grey College | Selborne | 35 | 26 | 5 | 4 | |
| Grey College | Dale | 18 | 14 | 3 | 1 | |
| Grey College | Queens | 68 | 38 | 20 | 10 | |
| Grey College | Maritzburg College | 19 | 16 | 2 | 1 | |
| Grey College | Affies | 32 | 25 | 4 | 3 | |
| Queens | Dale | 1891 | 168 | 78 | 75 | 16 |
| Queens | Selborne | 165 | 88 | 66 | 11 | |
| Queens | St Andrews (G/T) | 73 | 33 | 31 | 9 | |
| Queens | Grey High | 59 | 26 | 26 | 7 | |
| Dale | Selborne | 1892 | 185 | 99 | 76 | 10 |
| Dale | Kingswood | 1911 | 73 | 47 | 22 | 4 |
| Dale | Grey High | 1918 | 91 | 37 | 44 | 10 |
| Dale | St Andrews (G/T) | 1923 | 67 | 37 | 27 | 3 |
| Maritzburg College | Hilton | 1875 | 164 | 112 | 41 | 11 |
| Maritzburg College | St Charles | 1882 | 80 | 53 | 18 | 9 |
| Maritzburg College | Michaelhouse | 1901 | 163 | 104 | 45 | 14 |
| Maritzburg College | DHS | 1910 | 188 | 118 | 57 | 13 |
| Maritzburg College | Glenwood | 1921 | 163 | 109 | 38 | 16 |
| Maritzburg College | Kearsney | 1943 | 69 | 57 | 10 | 2 |
| Maritzburg College | Northwood | 1956 | 40 | 37 | 0 | 3 |
| Maritzburg College | Westville | 1987 | 27 | 22 | 3 | 2 |
| Glenwood | Hilton | 1915 | 96 | 37 | 54 | 5 |
| Glenwood | DHS | 1922 | 141 | 50 | 80 | 11 |
| Glenwood | Michaelhouse | 1933 | 82 | 33 | 47 | 2 |
| Glenwood | Kearsney | 1942 | 70 | 41 | 26 | 3 |
| Glenwood | Northwood | 1955 | 52 | 37 | 11 | 4 |
| Glenwood | Westville | 1964 | 47 | 31 | 14 | 2 |
| Westville | Kearsney | 52 | 26 | 26 |
@Vyfster: Grey to this day call Queens “the old foe”. Monnas have won 5/11 games with 2 draws if Im correct (Maybe Andre T can help).On an elongated graph though, QC has the best record against them. They were the two biggest boarding schools in Africa and competed for the same boys.
@ Playa: absolutely incredible that 170 + games between Dale and Queens and they have basically equal wins….looking at respective results it seems that Dale should be one ahead for the first time since 1934, come the end of season, but of course you can never tell with derbies….but this is surely a golden opportunity for you guys
Interesting to see that Queens is by far the most successful team in country against GCB. although I suspect Monnas has a better winning percentage against GCB than anyone else(although not as many games played)…unfortunately it is not reflected on this post…can someone confirm if I am correct
Time to get this updated Beet? Had a look at Dale-Queens H2H and realised Dale will be level with Queens for the first time since 1978 if they win. If they double QC this year Dale will be ahead for the first time since anyone on this blog was born…that year being 1934 if my records are correct.I’ll send you my updates. We miss you @Gungets Tuft: please send College’s.
Oh,I was also informed today that the three oldest schools at KERF this year were incidentally Queens (1858), Dale (1861), and Selborne (1872). Thanks to College missing this one the oldest buggers were from Border
@beet: Please do the changes as i sent you.
The head to head table which can be found under the menu STATS has been updated to include some of Grey College’s results
@beet: Please put those Grey stats on here as well
@beet: Whats that email address again so i can send you GB results against there main rivals
Okay I’ve updated this one with Gimmies vs Boishaai interschools
@Playa: Well this is the biggest rugby interschools in the world and many a GalPil or Bloedwors will tell you about the upsets in this rivalry. Worth a listen to old Bokke playing for Paarl Gym in the past on their marketing video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aISpoGaLsE&feature=youtu.be
@Grasshopper: The 5 Beachwood matches must have been from 1984 to 1988 cos I seem to remember playing them every year. I suspect that Pinetown will join St Henry’s and Grosvenor as ‘schools we used to play’. I see they are not on the fixture list this year. The mismatch last year was ridiculous.
@Greenblooded, finally got the Beachwood stats. Between 1965 and 1989 Glenwood played Beachwood 5 times winning 4 and losing 1. I also have the stats against old rivals who became to weak in the late 80’s and 90’s so fixtures were called off.
vs St Henry’s
Played: 20
Won: 18
Lost: 1
Drew: 1
vs Grosvenor
Played: 22
won: 19
Lost: 3
Grosvenor must have been competitive in the 70’s.
I also have the analysis per decade from 1934 to 1989, as follows;
Period-played-won-lost-drawn-win %
(1934-1940)-72-15-51-6-21%
(1941-1950)-131-47-71-13-36%
(1951-1960)-131-81-38-12-62%
(1961-1970)-135-80-42-13-59%
(1971-1980)-129-82-38-9-64%
(1981-1989)-113-77-36-0-68%
Total: 711-382-276-53
54% overall win ratio. This shows the 30’s and 40’s were shocking for us but the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were pretty good. The 90’s let us down and now we are back to about the 80’s standards.
@PaarlBok: Very close rivalry. Very few games with a score difference of more than 10 points, and very few points scored of more than 20.
Gim vs Bois Interskole:
Results Down the Years:
1915: Boys’ High won 10-0
1916: Gim won 7-5
1917: Gim won 3-0
1918: Gim won 3-0
1919: Gim won 9-0
1920: Gim won 20-0
1921: Draw 6-6
1922: Draw 3-3
1923: Boys’ High won 3-0
1924: Boys’ High won 13-5
1925: Boys’ High won 7-3
1926: Boys’ High won 6-5
1927: Gim won 5-3
1928: No match
1929: Draw 3-3
1930: Boys’ High won 5-3
1931: Gim won 6-0
1932: Gim won 7-3
1933: Boys’ High won 3-0
1934: Boys’ High won 5-4
1935: Draw 0-0
1936: Gim won 11-6
1937: Gim won 5-3
1938: Gim won 5-3
1939: Gim won 9-8
1940: Draw 3-3
1941: Gim won 6-0
1942: Draw 0-0
1943: Gim won 9-6
1944: Boys’ High won 6-0
1945: Boys’ High won 14-6
1946: Draw 3-3
1947: Boys’ High won 8-3
1948: Draw 3-3
1949: Gim won 9-3
1950: Boys’ High won 6-3
1951: Boys’ High won 6-0
1952: Boys’ High won 11-0
1953: Boys’ High won 6-5
1956: Gim won 6-3
1957: Gim won 5-3
1958: Gim won 11-0
1959: Boys’ High won 11-3
1960: Gim won 9-3
1961: Boys’ High won 6-0
1962: Boys’ High won 6-0
1963: Boys’ High won 8-0
1964: Gim won 9-8
1965: Gim won 11-0
1966: Gim won 8-0
1967: Gim won 8-6
1968: Gim won 3-0
1969: Boys’ High won 8-5
1970: Gim won 19-8
1971: Boys’ High won 11-6
1972: Boys’ High won 6-3
1973: Boys’ High won 19-6
1974: Gim won 9-3
1975: Boys’ High won 3-0
1976: Gim won 8-6
1977: Boys’ High won 15-6
1978: Gim won 13-10
1979: Gim won 12-6
1980: Gim won 9-3
1981: Gim won 12-0
1982: Boys’ High won 16-15
1983: Gim won 15-6
1984: Gim won 10-4
1985: Boys’ High won 16-6
1986: Draw 0-0
1987: Boys’ High won 15-7
1988: Draw 6-6
1989: Gim won 15-4
1990: Boys’ High won 10-6
1991: Boys’ High won 8-4
1992: Gim won 20-15
1993: Boys’ High won 19-17
1994: Boys’ High won 11-6
1995: Boys’ High won 17-3
1996: Gim won 18-16
1997: Gim won 13-10
1998: Boys’ High won 16-5
1999: Gim won 13-6
2000: Boys’ High won 15-7
2001: Boys’ High won 12-3
2002: Gim won 15-0
2003: Boys’ High won 25-6
2004: Gim won 13-3
2005: Gim won 22-10
2006: Gim won 23-17
2007: Gim won 10-0
2008: Gim won 35-8
2009: Boys’ High won 24-12
2010: Draw 19-19
2011: Gim won 22-19
2012: Gim won 16-9
@beet: Sorry taking so long got back yesterday will email you Grey Bloem derby results before the end of the week
@beet: I will have the Grey Bloem head to heads with you in a few days have just sent them off to my old friend at Grey just to see if they are correct.
@beet: The point I wanted to make about the unions and sponsorships, its a risk being dependent on a sponsor and has the potential to place a school in a financial predicament. For now it seems like an extreme but the obsession with winning sometimes brings about irrational behaviour in some, while others wanting to keep up might feel that mimicking is the only to go. With regards to recruitment, things must not be allowed to spiral out of control.
Wishing you all a happy, healthy and prosperous new year, will be in order. May the best team always win this year and may that team always be Grey. May the boys all prosper with bursaries, accommodation and six figure salaries- while it lasts!
@Grasshopper: Out of control spending habits should be a concern to all. In KZN our recruitment has become like the “arms race” as described in that Australian newspaper article. At some point in the near future recruitment needs to be regulated along with what can and cannot be offered to a prospective player. We are not too far away from professional rugby players at school. In a few instances, schoolboys are already receiving pocket money – this comes from the unions and not the schools themselves. Others will point to the increased number of sports bursaries and scholarships being handed out and will argue that pro players are already present in our schools. But I’m talking about schools actually paying boys a monthly salary to play for the school over and above paying for education, boarding and sundries. Schools will have to fund this and could foreseeable become dependent on external sponsorships. Then it will really turn into a EPL type scenario of the bigger budget teams reaping the rewards. There will however be a Saffa rugby flavour to this though. In SA there is a shortage of major companies in our economy to fund this big spending – recently the Cheetahs and Lions really had to sweat until Toyota and MTN became their new backers. I think the Sharks / Mr Price deal is coming up for renewal soon. The Sharks might also find themselves in a spot of bother when this happens with many financial obligations to fulfil and problems securing the amount they desire from a sponsor.
Perhaps it’s time for SARU to step in and declare SBR to be an amateur sport. Kids can get school fees, boarding and basic essentials paid for but may not receive remuneration of any kind. Make the rules now based on a prevention is better than cure philosophy
@Horsie, I think schools with depth can consistently be good, so Glenwood, Westville and College should always be up there with Northwood and DHS coming to the party now. The privates will have some excellent years but will find it hard to produce good sides every year….
@Grasshopper: would be some achievement if GWD stayed up there but i dont think itll ever happen again since other schools are upping their game,
@Beet, I would like that consistency to carry on for another few decades, only then can Glenwood be considered a rugby powerhouse. If we can consistently compete with Affies, Grey Bloem and win over 60% of our local games then I will be a very happy old Boy. However, with other schools now spending, they will catch up and even surpass Glenwood as we cannot compete in the money stakes unfortunately……it’s now like the English premier league football, the more money you have the better the results……look at Man City and Chelsea…..
@Greenwood: The stats speak for themselves, Glenwood’s rugby programme took the lead in KZN a few years back and all others have been trying to get back on level terms. Michaelhouse finally dethroned Glenwood in 2012 after about 6 seasons as the no.1 team. An outstanding achievement by House but it is about consistency over time and like the College teams of old, Glenwood has been very consistent.
Beet – “Glenwood are the new College of KZN Rugby” having been at GWD some time ago this is like music to my ears – my days at GWD were College & “School ” regularly have the better of Glenwood – so I take this as a huge compliment to both Glenwood and College who were the benchmark for KZN SBR rugby
Happy New Year to all the bloggers, looking forward to a great year ahead of schoolboy rugga and blog debate…
@Grasshopper: The pressure will be no more than it always is, remember that the 150 year celebrations are not all about rugby, the school is a lot more than that. I think that there were huge lessons learned by all, especially the Old Boys, at Reunion this year. I certainly never want to see that sort of emotion on boys faces after a game and I hope the hierarchy in the school, rugby management and Old Boys make that very clear this year. To expect the boys of 2013 to carry 150 years of tradition on their shoulders is a ludicrous notion.
The boys of 2013 are responsible for 2013, no more, no less, unless someone sees fit to add “Rugby” to Honesty, Integrity, Courage, Self-Discipline, Commitment, Respect. Success in life, academics and sport flows from those – it is not an ingredient, it is a result.
Everyone hopes they will do well – as we do every year – but there is no pack drill as a consequence if they do not win at rugby.
Any Old Boys out there reading this – you feel differently – then join us in the Old Boys batch in Dusi, Midmar Mile and the “run past” College in the Comrades, and show the boys how it is done. Nothing like serving as an example to give the school a lift!!
@Grasshopper:
True that. Cricket being very successful when LCW Theobald was coach and also when Alan Norton was.
Swimming great from late 90’s till 2007 and Water Polo very good all the way till 2009.
Don’t see swimming coming back to us but I do see the other two sports slowly coming back
@Gungets, yes Glenwood have some good set of results against College in recent years, but that has coincided with probably College’s worst decade of rugga. We will take the wins with a smile and hope we can win a few more going forward. I don’t think parity in wins will ever be achieved though…..
@Horsie, yes my dad said DHS was always known as a cricket and aquatics school with a decent rugga side. College had the KZN rugga powerhouse tag for the majority of the last century…..
@Beet, agreed! I like the fact that Glenwood are out of the lime light and are not carrying the favourites tag for 2013. It may release the team to play a more open game plan. The pressure is heavily on College (150yrs), Westville and Kearsney. I am hoping Glenwood can surprise a few next year….Go Green!
@Gungets Tuft: Could be an exciting set of games between these 2 in 2013 again. Glenwood are the new College of KZN rugby. Their results in 2012 were not bad but I think by the high standards they have set for themselves, they believe they were capable of performing better. In 2013 they get to start a season out of the limelight, as underdogs for a change and this could make them into a very dangerous proposition for favourite teams in KZN and top rated schools from outside the province. By comparision College will feel a lot of pressure simply due to it being their 150th. They will be in the spotlight. Hopefully they thrive on this attention. They have enough quality to make it a successful year but I can’t help feel that crucial to this success will be securing their own lineout ball. They really need lineout jumpers and Khatide to step up to the plate in 2013.
@Grasshopper: From there :
2010 – Glenwood won 20-13 at Dixons and College 35-16 at Goldstones
2011 – Glenwood won 31-30 at Goldstones and 31-3 at Dixons
2012 – Draws 16-16 at Dixons and 27-27 at Goldstones (Not the first time there have been 2 draws in a season – it happened in 1939 as well (0-0 Dixons and 8-8 Goldstones)
Played: 163
Won: 38
Lost: 109
Drawn: 16
Agrees with your numbers – I think the errors may be much further back.
Since 2006 been very good for Glenwood – Played 13, Won 9, Lost 2, Drawn 2. That is 24% of your wins in the last 7 years.
@Grasshopper:
To be truthful DHS has never been a rugby school, it was always more of an aquatic school than any other thing.
@Gungets, I have these official stats up to 2009;
Played: 157
Won: 35
Lost: 108
Drawn: 14
So work it out from there, I might have made an error since 2009….
@Horsie, yes I have since 2000 played 17, won 11, lost 5, drawn 1. What was surprising was that in our worst decade in the 90’s it was played 13, won 6, lost 7 which is pretty good……
@Grasshopper:
I think those results are to GWDs favour due to the last 12 years. What’s it now, P 17 W 11 L6 am I correct?
@Grasshopper: Do you have the detail of the College stats. I have 2 different numbers – my own (Played 162, Won 108, drawn 17, lost 37), the official ones (Played 162, won 109, drawn 17, lost 36) and yours (163, 109, 16, 38). If I compare your detail to mine, then verify against the Jimeloyo Ji results I might find the error.
You have my email address.
@Horsie, any comments on the results against DHS since 1960? Yes, agreed a game has many influences, but the mind is the biggest one. Take the 1996 result we had an atrocious season and the win against a highly rated DHS turned it around for us. To beat your biggest rival in your matric year is all that counts for many……I can say we beat the flies in my final year. The 90’s were are bleak for Glenwood as the noughties have been for DHS……I know how DHS Old Boys are feeling……gatvol!
@Grasshopper:
Once again, I didn’t say it was a fluke, the boys wouldve wanted to prove that it was.
Do agree with the whole want itm ore scenario but only. To an extent, many fctors go into a match
@Greenblooded, going to need to dig deep for the Beachwood stats, they are somewhere in my cupboard in Cape Town. In Durbs at present so going to have to supply in the new year…..I imagine it will be positive for Glenwood though….
@Grasshopper: Can you do a bit more on the Northlands Beachwood Northwood stats? Be interested to see that. Also why the BW stats were excluded from your previous source. Maybe gives a clue as to why the BW old boys dont identify with NW.
Glenwood vs DHS, more in depth analysis;
1922 to 1959
Played: 77
Won: 14
Lost: 56
Drew: 7
% win: 18%
1960 to present
Played: 64
Won: 36
Lost: 24
Drew: 4
% win: 56%
This shows that DHS were strong when Glenwood was a smaller school, but since 1960 have in fact been the weaker rugby school…
@Beet, add a % win column if you can. That would help….
@Horsie, love the term ‘fluke’. That is what happens in derbies, form is thrown out of the window and it comes down to who wants it more on the day. Yes, ref decisions do play a part too as you always seem to point out in the Under14 game, which in the end is just sour grapes. The score said a win to Glenwood at DHS against a side that was supposed to wipe us out on the day. This is the exact reason derbies are so great and why DHS have been competitive against Glenwood at 1st team level recently as they were playing for pride. Glenwood on paper should have beaten DHS at 1st team level by much larger margins. My favourite memory at school was being written off against DHS in 1996 at DHS, we ran out and won 20-17. DHS gave the game away as they were 17-6 ahead at half time but Glenwood guts came through in the end against a much classier DHS side. DHS need to think very long and hard about following through with canceling the biggest and oldest Durban derby…..
@Henkies:
I said that the U14s wouldve been out to prove that it was a fluke, didn’t say it was. I would say that the better team lost that day though, helps when you have the ref on your side…
There were other games we couldve easily won that day so its not all bad. Our U16 age group unfortunately only had 3 sides but when they playerd GWD there were no staggers and after watching all 3 games I can easily say that there’s no difference between these sides, just fact.
@Grasshopper:
Depth will take time but as soon as good rugga playing kids start seeing a good 1st side from DHS they’ll start flowing in
@Henkies, good to see a more balanced view from a DHS supporter. Glenwood and Westville led the semi-professional era and the others have now cottoned on. Let’s just say the games are all alot closer these days. No school will blow the other off the park, which makes for good watching. DHS will improve, but this will take time especially with regards to depth. Depth was always DHS’s strength in the past and this would need to return to change the overall results on a day. DHS cannot accept another day like against KES this year. Really embarrassing for DHS and it’s great history….
Horsie I think we need to eat a few more slices of humble pie. We might have a better overall record than Glenwood but we have had our arses kicked for the last ten years and we need to give our friends at Glenwood more recognition for making such big improvements after struggling through the mid and late 90’s. Our 14’s had an unlucky loss last year but I’m not sure if we won 1 game that day so we can’t really call the loss a fluke. Hopefully there are a few wins for us around the corner – the beer will definitely go down a lot better
@Grasshopper:
Yeah but GWD won’t get 3 more decades like this again against DHS. It was a bad phase for us which is slowly being phased out.
Hey many things went into the cancelling of the fixture not just the van Zyl thing, it just spilled what was already a very full glass of water!
I am sad that next years U15 side won’t have a chance to show that GWDs win this year was just. A fluke though…
@Greenblooded, very true. It seems if any other school eg Hilton or Michaelhouse poach from a local school it’s OK but if any kid moves to Glenwood all sport must be called off, pathetic and double standards in my honest opinion. Schools should boycott Michaelhouse and Hilton now too to be consistent…….
@Grasshopper: Exactly what I heard about van Zyl but any inbound player to Glenwood is going to attract the wrong type of attention. These guys pride is at stake – hard to accept that a school that you regularly dished it to now regularly gives it back.
@Horsie, it’s called a 45 year advantage…….very hard to catch up on but we have done a pretty good job of it in the past decade. Three more decades like that and we would have made up the ground. Will be good to see the rivalry rekindled but DHS Board of Governors have seen the end of that, idiots! Especially for one kid who you even said would have made 2nd team at best…..and I heard from a prominent KZN coach today that he approached Glenwood and Glenwood just offered a standard bursary that was the equivalent of what he was getting at DHS………petty stuff….
Colleges lowest win rate is 62% vs DHS and Glenwood lowest is 28% v College and 35% vs DHS.
With the improvements at DHS don’t see GWD ever clawing back to 50% vs any of college and dhs
@Playa: Yikes
. Okay in now. Thanks 
@beet: Great! You missed the Dale vs Selborne one:
vs Selborne (1892): P185 W99 L76 D10
@Playa: Ta. Got it up
Dale Head-to-Heads
vs Queens (1891): P169 W75 L78 D16
vs Selborne (1892): P185 W99 L76 D10
vs Grey PE (1918): P91 W37 L44 D10
vs St Andrews (1923): P67 W37 L27 D3
vs Kingswood (1911): P73 W47 L22 D4
@Greenblooded, nope I think this is just Northlands and Northwood. Glenwood are ranked about 5th in KZN for overall results since rugga started which is about right considering we are probably the 5th oldest ‘big’ school after College, DHS, Hilton and Michaelhouse. The older the school the more established hence the more they win in the early years. I don’t think Glenwood beat College once in the 50’s, playing 17, losing 14 and drawing 3. Glenwood are justifiably ranked 5th on historical results with Kearsney, Westville, Northwood below them…
@Grasshopper: Thanks Hopper
@Grasshopper: Does the NW stats include Beachwood or not? Not a great record for GW. Only Kearsney, Westville and our friends across the Umgeni that we have the better of. No wonder everyone is at such pains to find justification for our recent surge.
Glenwood vs Traditional Opposition
Hilton (since 1915)
Played: 96
Won: 37
Lost: 54
Drawn: 5
College (since 1921)
Played: 163
Won: 38
Lost: 109
Drawn: 16
DHS (since 1922)
Played: 141
Won: 50
Lost: 80
Drawn: 11
Michaelhouse (since 1933)
Played: 82
Won: 33
Lost: 47
Drawn: 2
Kearsney (since 1942)
Played: 70
Won: 41
Lost: 26
Drawn: 3
Northwood (since 1955)
Played: 52
Won: 37
Lost: 11
Drawn: 4
Westville (since 1964)
Played: 47
Won: 31
Lost: 14
Drawn: 2
@Gungets Tuft: Thanks. I will add the 2011 + 2012 results and you cann. Verify these once you have the update from MC.
College head-to-head stuff sent. Not 100% sure of the 2011 and 2012 stuff, have updated as I remember them.
@Beet, I’ll send you the Glenwood ones in the new year. Please remind me..
@Greenwood: Thanks Greenwood. Enjoy what’s left of Christmas and New Year.
With all the rain that’s fallen there is bound to be a buildup of mud in parts. I’m sure there are a few guys itching to be the first to sling some of it.
Oh well. Time will tell.
First thing that stands out with Queens derbies is that the win loss ratio is relatively even with their local rivals
can’t say that about Glenwood and their 2 main traditional rivals DHS and College In reality they will probably never catch up to a 50/50 win/loss scenario especially with School making an attempt to level the playing the fields within a few years and the age of these 2 schools (being 50 years or more older than Glenwood)
Anyway Beet – all the best for the festive season and we all look forward to good SBR season starting as early as Feb and going right into August/ September and 7’s in October
Looking forward to all the blogging next year – I must comment on the positive change of tone in general on this blog compared to the negative tones in general we had on 365 from
what appears to be the same guys