World Rugby u20 Championship 2016 : Baby Boks’ finish 4th but fail to impress

POS JAP ARG FRA ENG ARG NAME A/G UNION SCHOOL
TUE SAT WED MON SAT
07/6 11/6 15/6 20/6 25/6
WON LOST WON LOST LOST
59-19 13-19 40-31 17-39 19-49
PR 17 17 1 1 Franco vd Berg u20 BB Randburg : 1 of 1
HK 2 2 16 2 2 Jan-Henning Campher u20 BB Garsfontein : 1 of 3
PR 3 18 18 3 3 Carlo Sadie u19 WP Bellville : 1 of 1
LK 19 19 4 4 4 Ruben de Villiers u19 WP HJS Paarl BH : 1 of 1
LK 5 5 5 5 Eli Snyman u20 BB St John’s (Harare) : 1 of 1
FL 6 6 6 6 6 Zain Davids u20 WP Rondebosch : 1 of 1
FL 7 7 20 7 7 Cobus Wiese u19 WP Upington : 1 of 1
No8 8 8 8 8 8 Junior Pokomela u20 EP Grey HS : 1 of 4
SH 21 9 9 Marco Jv Vuren u20 GL Transvalia : 1 of 1
FH 10 15 10 10 10 Manie Libbok u20 BB Outeniqua : 2 of 2
WG 23 11 11 11 Edwill vd Merwe u20 WP Paul Roos : 1 of 1
CT 12 22 12 12 12 JT Jackson u20 BB Oakdale : 1 of 1
CT 13 13 13 13 13 Franco Naude u20 BB Garsfontein : 3 of 3
WG 11 11 14 14 Stedman Gans u19 BB Waterkloof : 1 of 1
FB 15 10 15 15 15 Curwin Bosch u19 SH Grey HS : 3 of 4
HK 17 16 2 16 16 Tango Balekile u20 EP Selborne : 1 of 1
PR 16 1 1 17 17 Kwenzo Blose u20 FS Glenwood : 1 of 1
PR 18 3 3 18 18 NJ Oosthuizen u20 EP Marlow : 1 of 1
LK 4 19 19 19 Eduard Zandberg u20 WP Outeniqua : 1 of 2
LK 4 20 7 20 20 Denzel Hill u20 GL Jeppe : 1 of 2
SH 9 21 21 21 21 James Hall u20 EP Kearsney : 1 of 1
CT 22 12 22 22 22 Benhard Jv Rensburg u20 Leo Frikkie Meyer : 1 of 1
FB 23 23 23 23 Keanu Vers u20 EP Grey HS : 4 of 4
PR 1 Jaco Holtzhausen u20 BB Monument : 1 of 1
No8 20 20 Ernst van Rhyn u19 WP Paarl Gim : 1 of 1
CT Mosolwa Mafuma u19 FS St Benedict’s : 1 of 1
WG 14 14 14 INJ INJ Sibusiso Nkosi u20 SH Jeppe : 2 of 2
SH 21 9 INJ INJ Embrose Papier u19 BB Garsfontein : 2 of 3
FH SUS Jeremy Ward u20 EP Grey HS : 2 of 4

Standings after pool matches

# Team POOL P W D L PF PA PD TF TA BP PTS
1 England U20 B 3 3 0 0 109 23 86 12 2 2 14
2 Ireland U20 A 3 3 0 0 94 56 38 10 9 1 13
3 Argentina U20 C 3 3 0 0 82 48 34 8 6 1 13
4 South Africa U20 C 3 2 0 1 112 69 43 14 8 3 11
5 New Zealand U20 A 3 2 0 1 97 50 47 15 4 2 10
6 Scotland U20 B 3 2 0 1 42 73 -31 6 9 1 9
7 Australia U20 B 3 1 0 2 61 42 19 7 4 3 7
8 Wales U20 A 3 1 0 2 52 53 -1 6 5 3 7
9 France U20 C 3 1 0 2 92 78 14 13 9 2 6
10 Georgia U20 A 3 0 0 3 16 100 -84 1 14 1 1
11 Japan U20 C 3 0 0 3 53 144 -91 8 20 0 0
12 Italy U20 B 3 0 0 3 39 113 -74 5 15 0 0

370 Comments

  1. Ons bloed is groen! Good luck to the Baby Boks, make us proud.
    Anyone know of Superbru pools the schoolboyrugby supporters are playing in?

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  2. All our losses in the semis resulting in us coming third, against who was it each year? Can anyone help maybe?
    That is in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013 & 2015.
    Got a feeling that it happened more than once against …..NZ !

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  3. Good grief. Is lightning going to strike twice? The baby Boks are down by 19 to 7 after 32 minutes v Japan. 8-O 8-O

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  4. The Baby Boks have scored three converted tries in the past 7 minutes. They’re up by 28 to 19 after 45 minutes.

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  5. The Baby Boks won by 59 to 19 after being 19 to 7 down two minutes before HT. Anyone watch the game? WTF happened in the first half?

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  6. @Vleis: It seems we waited for something to happen in the first half. When we realised we needed to play in order to win, the flood gates opened.

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  7. Well played bokkies…. the intensity lacked in defense during the 1st 20m but it came through in the second half…. scrums also better in 2nd half….

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  8. Geez the Baby Boks made such a big deal out of this game against Japan…that first half was a disaster….scrums & break downs again an issue…Zain Davids runs & plays like a centre…..that loose trio lacks balance.

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  9. Even when one ignores the poor start, that wasn’t the most convincing team performance. This is a tournament where you have to be dead certain you will win all your group matches or you need to put away minnows like Japan so that if it comes down to points difference, you give yourself the best chance of claiming that “wildcard” 4th semifinal place. Hopefully better things to come from the BB’s.

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  10. @beet: fortunate the yellow card broke Japs back. Davids was strong all game. Much like his CW last year excellent player. To be honest next years Bokkies team to watch.

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  11. Ek sien maar swaarigheid vir die klein bokkies. Flambojante eerste span en 019 flair word vervang met stereotiepe stormram, een demensionele springbok ‘groef’ rugby. Dankie tog ek kan skolerugby nog kyk oor naweke om my van hierdie erge pyn te verlig.

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  12. I am pretty convinced that Glenwood would be our last rugby world champions ever

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  13. @Speartackle: hahah, yeah because we have at least learnt how to play the Japs. Those who laughed off the Japs side see now they not that kak, especially when half the teams are Maori.

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  14. Boeta Chamberlain – die prins van losskakels, maak sy terugkeer na die rugbyveld teen Boland Landbou die naweek. Draf vir die 3des uit. Hy het sy oogkas op 4 plekke gekraak by St Johns, sterkte ou bul!

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  15. hoe swak is Dawie Theron regtig-ek verstaan nie hoe die palooka sy job hou nie.

    kannie Skrum/maul/pass nie

    goeie genade

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  16. @boerboel: Ek is geneig om met jou saam te stem.

    Ek wil nie hoor van daar was onvoldoende voorbereiding nie.

    Ek wil nie hoor van dit en daai en dit en daai nie.

    Vir manne wat n loopbaan uit rugby wil maak…sien ek swarigheid.

    Die talent is daar……maar daar is beslis n gebrek aan afrigting in SA….kyk maar met die bokke saterdag.

    Ons gaan nog meer verdedigend speel as onder die afrigting van Heyneke…

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  17. Ek stem saam met boerboel ons het gesikkel teen die Japs ,en daar is net twee groot spelers in daai span, die res weeg nie eers 75kg nie. So nou weet ek nie hoe wil die BB teen NZ, Wales,Ireland of enige van die ander lande speel in die World Cup nie , al die spanne het meer as die helfde spelers wat groot is en vining is en wat in hulle span hoort . Dit is die swakste SA o/20 span wat ek nog ooit gesien het,en dit is nou van dat die o/20 World Cup begin het. As ek kyk hoe hulle speel onder druk ,,, almal praat oor CB ,maar hy kan nie onder druk speel nie ,chip sommer die balle in die Japs se hande ,hy wil nie sy liggaam op die spel sit, hy spring nie vir die balle nie en sy verdediging is swak, die Maori vat die bal by hom en druk sy twede drie…. En ek kan nie glo dat daar nie beter spelers in SA is nie die losskop stut was so swak …… Ek dink ons kan nog ons Pool wen maar daar na is dit net nag….

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  18. We were too individualistic in the first half and didn’t swarm like a pack should. Turned over when it looked like we would score. I think Dawie gave them a clap around the ears at halftime and that did the trick. Our big game is this Saturday and will be live on SS6 at 7. We need to close this one out and have Japan do us a huge favour by beating the French, then we will be in the pound seats. For my sake, I hope we play in the semi’s (top 4 ) because I push the button for the air tickets. We have the talent and the size to make hay and we mustn’t forget that. It is a case of being clinical when the opportunity arises.

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  19. I think it is time we forget about schoolboy heroes and use the u-19 CC as a tool for selection. I must admit The EP players in yesterday’s team performed well as they should cause they won CC last year. Some of the schoolboy prodigees were very ordinary and then I’d rather not single out those who were completely out of their depth

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  20. @Buffel: To be very honest with you I think your boy had an outstanding game. He was very quick and cleaned up nicely. His passes were shocking though in the first half but I’ll put that down to nerves and take this as constructive criticism please. He had a an excellent second half though.

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  21. @Buffel: To add to old Spear’s comments. Congrats..I thought he gave his 10 very nice quick ball…got a good pass and his options taking was good. The greatest skill a scrummy can possess is a bullet pass from the ground…he’s got that and it always gives the backs that extra second or two they need. Best prospect at 9 I have seen for a while. Definitely one to watch for the future!..

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  22. Dawie Theron leaving for Japan After the tournament. I fancy Sean Erasmus to take up the reigns after him. I believe SE has proved himself through out the years. Just a thought…

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  23. @BoishaaiPa: that has to do with good coaching, good players and a good gameplan, nothing to do with God supporting them only. That is completely against what the religion stands for…just saying…

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  24. @BoishaaiPa: I know boet, I just find it wrong to include religion in sport. What if half the guys are Muslim (likely in the Cape), some atheist (likely too) and some Christian. I just doesn’t sit with me well associating victories to god etc. The worst is to get the boys to join happy clappy churches and make them attend and get involved in prayer sessions etc.

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  25. @BoishaaiPa: Yep, everybody to their own but not for me. I prefer to keep my motivation to inspiring quotes etc and keep religion out of it. It can back-fire on you, seen it before…

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  26. @BoishaaiPa: @Speartackle: Thanks Guys.Critisism welcomed. I have just been on the line to him. Those short passes to the pod need to have a little less steam on them but all in all, he did the basics well. Enjoyed the way he worked the base to both sides so not one dimensional. I think the occasion got to them at the start but when they went into the shed at half time , Dawie read them the riot act and they listened. Big game on Saturday.

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  27. @ Buffel: jou seun het goed gespeel maar ek dink daar is twee groot probleme in die SA 20 span. Ek glo nie Libbok is die regte losskakel wat hulle gekies het nie sy bal verspreiding is baie swak en te vining na buite en met jou seuns se aangee wat baie goed is hardloop hy nog steeds terug na die voorspelers en as hy hardloop is dit te skeef amper soos Bulletjie rugby , reguit na die kanltyn toe hy maak die spasie toe en dink hy gaan met spoed om die spelers hardloop .Die manne gaan hom bymekaar maak in die volgende paar games . Die Bulle het die beste losskakel In die name van Tinus De Beer en word baie aangeskrewe deur Naas Botha.. Waar is die jong man heen weet iemand.

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  28. @Speartackle: Regardless of the religious comments , at the end of the day the job is done. Which is obviously the main goal. I’m sure no one is hurt because of religious reason :)

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  29. @burra: No sir, after he had a major influence on selecting the squad this year, it can only be Robbi Kempson.

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  30. With regard to Blose from GW, there was a Blose who played Academy week last year as a flank. He also played on and off in the GW 1st team in that position and as lock. If he is the same guy then to transform into a prop a year later for the SA U20s is quantum jump. I remember my son being ripped out of a ruck by him at U15 level and his shoulder was never the same again. :mrgreen:

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  31. @star: I think it’s the same guy, played mostly 2nd team lock/flank. How he is playing prop now only God knows, very different positions.

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  32. @Buffel: As you are closer to the scene than I am, what happened to Kenny Van Niekerk? He was an immense scrummager? Also, guys like Morne Joubert, Corne Vermaak, Tristan Dixon, Chris Klopper, Bader Pretorius, Mchunu, Sisink-Clee, Quma etc…

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  33. @Buffel: gutted to read your lad has signed a 3 year deal with Oyannax. And they’ve just been relegated the ProD2. Hopefully it’s French paper talk :(

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  34. @Slam: agreed!
    I don’t understand why a player will sign a contract on the eve of a JWC (I’m sure it was done beforehand and not during the tournament). If he does well, more people / clubs will take notice of him. I have to admit I haven’t seen much of him but he has a brilliant pass among other things. I trust that all options have been considered before signing the contract

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  35. @BuffelsCM: at least he will have a few Saffers to keep him company at Oyannax. Dean “Penalty Machine Greyling, Steven Sykes and Callie Visagie have all put pen to paper at the club. They’re confident they’ll get promoted back to the Top 14 after 1 year otherwise it could be a while till we see the lad on tv playing in a European or the Top 14 competition.

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  36. @Slam: With the contract that was signed with SARU, James can ply his trade after the Super Rugby season either here or overseas, returning in time for Super Rugby 2017. The contract is a 1 plus 2 so he has the option to renew for years 2 and 3. They just announced he has signed for 3 years which is technically incorrect. James hasn’t left our shores forever, he will return and is just as hungry to play for South Africa in the future as any young South African should he be lucky enough to be selected. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

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  37. @Buffel: That is really good to hear. I just wish these details could have been reported initially. ….no fault of your son obviously! I really think he / you should consider his future options carefully

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  38. The loss of the junoir Boks yesterday, although very sad, was to be expected.
    I saw them in action on 2 occasions locally, and the warning lights already flashed strongly. They narrowly beat a depleted o/19 WP Institude side(a number of their players was in the junior Bok squad).

    My concern is not so much with the current selected side. They certainly did not select themselves, and I am sure they are giving their best. Most of them would have been 1st. choice, anyway.
    However, the flawed selection proceess has ensured that quite a few players are totally out of their depth. I am almost certain that some of these players will struggle to make the starting teams of some of our stronger provincial u/19 sides.

    Up to now, the coach and his assistants relied heavily on past reputations , hearsay etc. when selecting their initial training squad. This , for obvious reasons, wil not ensure that all the best and form players will be included.

    What I would like to see, is that the coaching staff attend the U/19 Currie Cup matches, where all teams will play at least 12 matches. This is a very strong and competitive competition.However, there is no tv matches, apart from the finals. In other words, the coaches cannot truely judge the form of the players, if they are not present. They have to rely on other persons oppinions. However, if they do it properly, it would mean that each of the coaching panel will see each team, at least twice in the season. They can create a data base, where each of the week’s performers can be acommodated.Then, add to them the few stars who are already involved in senior competitions, as well as the really stand out players from Craven week. That should give them a huge starting point, when selecting the 1st training squad.

    Once these players are in camp, use the 1st. two weeks to sort out the men from the boys, in full contact sessions. Forget about skills and conditioning training in these weeks. If a player is not skillfull or fit, he should not have been invited in the 1st. place. After this has been done, the coaches can start with their game plan etc.

    With Dawie Theron having already resigned, SA Rugby should now appoint his successor and his assistants. The u/19 Currie Cup kicks off next week! They can already start their proccess for next year.

    Just my 2 cents worth of useless information!

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  39. @Kattes-Strofes: No useless information at all Kattes. In a squad like this you want to see a large number of under 20 players. I know if you are good enough you are old enough but you need some “ou hande & harde baarde”. I don’t have a problem with the number of under 19 players but is this perhaps an indication of the (lack of) quality of the current under 20’s (the under 18 boys of 2014…they have lost one “test” against the English if I’m not mistaken) ? It is tough on the under 19 boys to carry the flag for an under 20 side…. my 2 cents

    I agree with your idea about watching the current under 19 players…you need to see as much rugby as possible from the guys that are in contention of being selected. This principle should apply right through the various provincial structures as well (in SBR that is).

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  40. @Kattes-Strofes: Uitstekende waarneming. Stem egter nie saam dat baie van die huidige spelers in die span werklik eerste keuse in hul posisies is nie. Daar is n paar spelers in die span wat weinig rugby vanjaar en verlede jaar gespeel het.

    I agree with your idea about watching the current under 19/20 players – the coaches and selector need to see as much possible from the guys that are in contention of being selected.

    Why not organize a mini tournament against NZ , Aus and Arg before the tournament? These games will help with the players confidence and structures. If needed select your final group after these games

    Playing specialist players out of position does not help either. Defense is a commitment not a skill and it showed yesterday.

    Sommige spelers is so behep met die skeidsregter se beslissings of dan gebrek aan beslissings dat basiese foute begaan word omdat hulle nie konsentreer nie. Glo steeds dat hulle kan die Franse maklik klop

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  41. The coach. De Beertjie is nog in Pretoria…. Hoe dink jy gaan hy spankry met Libbok en Bosch wat volgens my albei overrated is!

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  42. @Kattes-Strofes: realistically I think the 2014 year group that we actually watching wasn’t a good vintage. Also quite a few of them from Grey High in that year. As we saw in last year’s CW with many of 2014. I believe next year and 2017 to be a good 1. They rate Curwin Bosch very highly but defensively and not in a competitive team he shy’s away. He was basically an usher to the tryline last night. Tactical play of his under pressure seems to be an issue. We haven’t seen it much due to him having stronger team around him most of u18. But there’s enough starting to occur lately. As a whole baby boks ineffective play as with the Boks.

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  43. My two cents worth… I think the talent is there… I agree with Kattes surrounding the selection process… but… and this is a big BUT… the way those boys play, the way they are taught to play, is not up to standard. There is no rythm in their play… its pass and barge rugby! They bash with the forwards, and then when that doesnt work, the slow balls are being passed to the flyhalf… not to mention the glaring holes in their defensive pattern… I was shocked to see the talent on display wasted (again) by the way our boys are forced to play… looked very similar to the way the boks played on Saturday…

    Gents, our rugby is in deep, deep trouble… our problems are much deeper than the bokkies or the boks… I am going to say it… We have a serious lack of proper coaches at the franchises… Two years ago I had to listen to the wise men of a very big franchise shooting down the way the lions play saying its too risky, too dangerous… they will implode, that way of playing doesnt work in super rugby etc. Well how wrong the wise men were… the only side in the country that hasnt forgotten what rugby is all about… the rest are coached into “safe” conservative robotism… and now our u20s are also safe robots…

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  44. @Grasshopper: @BuffelsCM: Yes because for some reason in this country there is a belief that a good player will automatically be a good coach… Steve Hansen and Graham Henry in my mind doesnt pop in my head as world beater players… but boy they can coach…

    Many of the franchise coaches at u19, u21 curriecup and super rugby doesnt really have that much coaching experience…

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  45. @Rugbyman: I mean Robbie Fleck coaching one of our main franchises is a joke! The oke hasn’t even coached a school team yet. Really coaches need to earn their stripes lower down. Sean Erasmus has coached at that level close on 15 years now, he has earned the right to go up. Jake White was another…

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  46. @odie15: katte stem nie saam tov 2014 krop nie, daar is baie goeie spelers wat by die huis gebly het vir spelers van 2015. Waar is spelers soos Eduan Keyter, Thinus de Beer, Morne Joubert net om vinnig aan n paar te dink.

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  47. @pietretief: Boere generaal!! Dit was nie ek wat gese het 2014 se manne is vrot nie! My klaagliedere het gegaan oor die gebrekkige talent identifisering/ kies van spanne! Nietemin , dit blyk tog ook of daar sekere waarheid steek in van die manne se waarnemings dat die 2014 groep nie so sterk was nie. Ek meen egter ten spyte hiervan, kon ons steeds n beter span in die veld stoot.
    Kom ons bly egter steeds positief en hoopvol. Die verkose jong manne is nou daar, en verteenwoordig ons almal.

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  48. @Kattes-Strofes: jammer katte het verkeerd gelees, probleem le nie by spelers nie, hulle kies nie hul self nie……dis die manne wat dink hulle weet en n sekere rugby wil speel wat baie jare terug vir griekwas gewerk het.

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  49. @Rugbyman: Some players can make the step up as coach but they need to start at the bottom and not at the top like for example Matfield tried to do. In that regard the unions should take the responsibility as well. Make the coach (ex player) go through the steps from the bottom but I suppose another union will simply employ him.
    Swys de Bruin is an example of a brilliant coach who came through the ranks: he has played a huge role in the “revival” at the Lions IMO. He should be used higher up and would IMO be the ideal coach at the Jong Bokkies. He will use their talent and in fact develop it. I was hoping that Theron would see the light with the slightly smaller and younger pack to play a more expansive game at this tournament. I know the weather didn’t play along but I don’t think he would have adopted a new approach.

    Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Nick Mallett for instance started as player / coach overseas albeit in a lower league (I think so).
    Anyhow RUGBYMAN I agree with your views.

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  50. @BuffelsCM: Not that I am aware. Jaco Coetzee is though, saw him at Monnas 2 weeks ago walking around. He looked OK, but overheard he is out for a while. He should have been in the Baby Boks squad if not injured. Shramm is another…

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  51. A guy like Kevin Musikanth has coached at School Level, Club Level and Varsity Cup with great success. I think a younger coach like him, particularly with his attacking rugby philosophy would be the perfect guy to be given the job for a few years. I think he coached the WP amateurs as well.

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  52. Oulike storie oor hoe dit nou eintlik in SA rugby werk. Verlede jaar voor die Bellville game teen Marlow by die Oakdale Rugbyweek was beide die loskop van Bellville en vaskop van Marlow op die Cheetahs se radar. Gedurende die game skrum die Bellville loskop die Marlow vaskop uit sy toks en in ‘n Kings kontrak in, letterlik. Hoe ironies is dit dan dat: Daardie vaskop nou vir die Bokkies speel, Bellville se vaskop op daardie dag ook daar is (laagste carry en tackle count van enige top vaskop in die WK verlede jaar) en GW se slot/flank is daar op loskop!

    Soos Kattes tereg gesê het, overrated spelers beland op hoorsê, hype en storietjies van agente/ooms/pappas/familie/skole-afrigters in die stelsel. Tyd dat die relevante mense ‘n slag van onder af op self ‘n paar games kom kyk, soos ‘n top WP beampte wat die moeite gedoen het om Saterdag se game op die Plaas te kom kyk. Teugvoer? Hy weet werklik nie waaroor die hype rondom sekere spelers is nie, en hy kon duidelik sien waarom sommige so hoog aangeslaan word.

    Eerlik nou ouens, as almal aanhou ‘n ou punt wat op nasionale TV alles in sy vermoë gedoen het om weg van ‘n tackle te harloop, kon julle wragtig nie meer verwag het nie!

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  53. John Dobson is also a very good candidate as he did very well with the WP u/19’s and u/21’s. I think Robbie Kempson might perhaps have the inside lane to the job after his success with the EP u/19’s last year.

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  54. @Ploegskaar: Dis alles goed en wel, maar mens kan ook nie op een wedstryd n oordeel trek nie…jy moet n paar wedstryde van spelers dophou om te sien wat in hulle steek. Party keurders dink hulle weet genoeg om n speler op een helfte te beoordeel!..Daar is baie faktore wat kan veroorsaak dat spelers op n spesifieke dag effens af is…Dis hoekom hulle oor n tydperk in verskillende wedstryde dopgehou moet word.Mens sal dan ook sekere patrone en swakhede begin raaksien.

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  55. @BoishaaiPa: Een game is verseker nie genoeg nie, maar steeds meer werd as roesmoes-proewe. Die oplossing is natuurlik dat die hordes dikgat uniebeamptes eenvoudig elke Saterdag die onderskeie wedstryde gaan kyk en weekliks notas vergelyk, maar dis duidelik te veel gevra

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  56. @Ploegskaar: Ek dink nie eers proewe is nodig as jy die spelers en wedstryde volg nie…Sover het meeste van ons omtrent 98% korrektheid en samestemming oor wie die bestes in hulle posisies is…Dis net die 2% wat uitgesort moet word. Jy leer minder uit proewe as uit n wedstryd situasie. Die konsep het keurders blykbaar nog nie besef nie!

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  57. @BoishaaiPa: Proewe dus eintlik net ‘n geleentheid vir keurders om rond te pronk en eerste keer ‘n gesig by ‘n naam te sit sodat hulle darem weet van wie almal praat….en selfs dan neuk hulle steeds op! Landbou is baie bekommerd oor ‘n sekere Henco Marais wat in die o18 groep van 46 ingesluit is, ons het hom nognie sien speel nie. Henlo Marais speel wel great rugby die jaar en was Saterdag weer op sy kop…Wonder hoe graag iemand by ‘n unie wil teken wat nie eers jou naam kan regkry nie ???

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  58. @Grasshopper: Not to take anything away from your point, I just feel I should point out that Robbie Fleck coached at UCT with John Dobson for some years before getting the call up to WP.

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  59. @BoishaaiPa: think last year was the big issue. Reality hit when they had named the team and captain. Then at Suidkus tournament they knew an issue had arouse. Best no 4 lock in country was named for bench and captain of WP CW was in doubt of starting. So they had to make space for capt at flank and loose trio players then lost out on game time. So now they want to be careful this year in committing to official names and capt this year. As far as I know the squad of 46 for CW & Akedemie are unofficial still although out in open.

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  60. @Ploegskaar: I see your comment ” Eerlik nou ouens, as almal aanhou ‘n ou punt wat op nasionale TV alles in sy vermoë gedoen het om weg van ‘n tackle te harloop, kon julle wragtig nie meer verwag het nie!” Is that about a certain flyhalf/fullback ?

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  61. Not sure of the composition of the side for Wednesday but we need a big win against France to make the top 4. There are a number of perms and come game time for our boys, we will know exactly what needs to be done. Wales could do us a huge favour and beat the Baby Blacks then we will be in if we win. Then its down to bonus points. If all blacks get 4 points and we get 5 we go through automatically. Japan beat Argies( very unlikely) and we win we go through. Georgia beat Ireland and prevent them getting a point , then we go through. There are others but we must at all costs get 5 points.

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  62. @Buffel: We were in a similar position in 2012 after we lost the opening game to ireland at Danie Craven…The Babyboks had to beat a strong England side and put 4 tries past them…They came out in the second half ignoring the original game plan and started playing as they can…and did score the 4 tries and played some of the best rugby in that tournament for that second half….and went on to win the Cup…Maybe its a good omen that we need to start focusing before the playoffs again…

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  63. @BoishaaiPa: All I know is that they have been read the riot act. They need a combo of flair and brawn. let the ball do the work. Pick the right combos and it might just work.

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  64. Inskrywing 75 hierbo slaan die spyker op die kop. As ons gedink het SA het diepte is dit die naweek bevestig dat meeste van die diepte by die huis in hul rusbanke diep gesit het. Daar word persepsies geskep agv waarskynlike briljantheid en ware talent word misgekyk. Na skool en selfs tot o/21 vlak word meeste spelers gekies op St9 en 10 welslae. 80-90% van die o/19s wat verlede jaar gespeel het kon presies dieselfde welslae behaal het as wat die huidige gekose groepie bereik het. Almal wat daar jol behoort rugby te kan speel. Ipv Jong Bokkies moet dit verander na “opkomende talent en moet daar uit die 6/7 provinsies so 4 tot 5 spanne gekies word. Elkeen speel n wedstryd teen die ander lande se 4 of 5 opkomende talent spanne en ‘n gewaardeerde groep van 35 word dan gekies. Kontrakte word te vinnig uitgedeel en die persepsies word verkeerd geskep op skool en o/19 vlak. Droomwereld ja, maar beter realitiet.

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  65. @Kattes-Strofes: If you don’t mind i would like to respond to your post above.

    Firstly i support your notion not to knock the players but that SARU should review the selection process. Unlike popular opinion, the current predicament SA Rugby finds itself in (at all levels) is not due to transformation, but the lack thereof. I believe what SARU is implementing currently under the banner of transformation is nothing but a quota system which will not be sustainable. Transformation means “change”. Change the way we have been thinking and the way we have been doing things. One of those things is how the U20 squad is identified every year. You have offered a solution in your post.

    SARU should be extremely concerned listening to Dawie’s comments after the squad was announced. He said, and he is still maintaining, that the squad consists of the best players in SA currently at this level. Put into context he is rubbishing the efforts of the WPRI, Sharks Academy, Academies of Bulls, Lions, etc, junior Currie Cup competitions (u19 & u21), and the Varsity Cup. What he is saying is put together, those structures cannot produce a strong, experienced enough u20 group of 28 players to go and dominate the u20 Championship every year. Therefore he believes that players who were exposed to school rugby only are best suited to represent SA at that level. If SARU was not rocked by Dawie’s statements, they have no idea what transformation is and that spells a major problem for SA Rugby going forward.

    Coming back to your proposal of a selection process, i agree with you to a certain extent, but differ slightly in how it could be implemented. Can you tell me what the purpose of the SARU High Performance unit is? I am trying to establish what their Inputs, Outputs and Outcomes are in terms of measuring performance and successes. I know about identifying a large group of u16’s following the Grant Khomo, but to achieve what? How many of the 2012 u16 HP players are in the current u20 squad?

    I am trying to say that the High Performance unit must be responsible for identifying the extended u20 group, not the coaches, not at u20 level, so that SARU can manage their transformation strategies themselves and not leave it to the coaches who are employed for a short period in any case. They can mess up and leave SARU to answer (to Fekile).

    There are so many ex-players wanting a chance to give back and help SA Rugby out of this dark hole. The HP center can employ those who are willing to offer their time as scouts (lets not call them selectors) with a small fee to cover traveling and accommodation expenses every time they attend a u19 CC match, and other tournaments where those age players are involved. The HP Center can draw up scoring sheets or rating sheets for players. The scouts must rotate so that they never score the same players in a certain team more than once. The players with high ratings from the majority of the scouts can be gathered in Stellenbosch every 3 months where they are tested for strength, fitness, skills, etc. The HP Center gives feedback to Unions where improvement is required for each player. After 3 months they are tested again and so on.

    Come the time of the u20 Championship, the extended squad is handed over to the coaching staff and they get to select the final 28.

    The door obviously will never be closed for a schoolboy prodigy. Every now and then such a player will emerge (ala Handre Pollard). Never ever 10 of them at a time! Then the system has failed.

    You will notice i did not mention the words “previously disadvantage”. This is because this transformation strategy is meant to produce and to benefit young talented players across the board, so as to secure the future of SA Rugby. Parallel to this SARU can include their programs for identifying black talent to make sure development and progress are equal. So there are inputs and outputs as explained above, with the outcomes being we dominate the u20 Championship every year and produce top level players (black and white), who can go on to play for the Springboks.

    Let me stop there, i can write a book on this subject.

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  66. @spot: Spot!! You are spot on (excuse the pun!). However, where I disagree with you, is your mention of the u/16 SA Elite group. My oppinion and rating of this group is , to put it mildly, very questionable. I doubt the abilty of most of the selectors. I have seen far too many average players included in these squads. I am almost sure (and I unfortunately do not have the stats) that very few of these so-called elite players become profesional players. It is also a well known fact that certain players are late bloomers, while other young stars again fall by the wayside.

    Where both you and I agree , is the fact that the u/19 Currie Cup competition, should form the basis of selecting your SA u/20 team of the following season. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is more than enough matches, (at least 12 by each team) and time, for whoever does selection, to compile a solid data base of the players.

    Finally, the inclusion of players of colour should not even have to be a discussion point. We have ample talent of all creeds and colours, which can ensure a team selected on pure merit. We do not need a numbers game. If the side have a few more players of the one race, or the other, I do not think the general rugby loving public will be complaning, if it is done fairly and correctly.

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  67. @Buffel: Why do the coach always have to read the riot act to the players. He had to do it after the lost against Arg and second half against the kamikaze’s. Surely , if you play in any side and represent your country you cant be complacent. Have not seen the so called X factors in the team as mentioned by Dawie. Only a few fat cats.

    Nuwe afrigter vir Junior Boks ? Many options but only a few candidates . Makoena van Pukke gaan die nuwe afrigter word. Mark my words

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  68. @Ploegskaar: alhoewel ons menings al so bietjie verskil het, kan ek sien dat jy na die regte ” potential and performance metrics” kyk. Kan jy iemand hier bo in Noordvaal aanbeveel wat selfde dink? @Rugbyman en ek verskil ook oor paar sake, maar sy rugby-denke is tops.

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  69. @loverugby: I agree with you that Makoena will be a strong candidate. Also heard the name of Deon Davids. He is currently the SWD senior coach, and was formally the Boland head coach. Before this he had a successful stint in club rugby where he coached Roses United to become Boland club champs. He is currently also one of Akkers’ assistants with the SA A side.

    I just hope that the appointment of the coaching staff are done promptly in order for them to get working!

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  70. @spot: I thought the 2nd best flyhalf at u20 level is Adriaan v/d Bank of last year’s boland CW. The best is still at school and will be WP pivot.

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  71. Odie, what r u talking about? Ernst van Ryn was WP captain, SA schools captain and SA u/18 player of the year! His place was never in any doubt! Ask the Boishaai players that played with him…let’s not start rumors that are false…he was the first name on the teamsheet

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  72. For Junior Boks to stay alive we need any combination of the following miracles: Wales to narrowly beat NZ (a draw even better) or Japan to beat Arg. Then SA to beat France by a huge margin (which means an open running game by SA, which will fit France perfectly :cry: ).

    As they say, miracles do happen.

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  73. @bloedwors: No rumours but let’s be honest now. He was selected as #4 lock and captain of WP. They went to try out combos at southern cape tourney. Team then ran out vs BB he played flank with 4 on his back due to him being Captain. Let’s be honest he was only lock at GIM. He hasn’t been a lock above school league. Doesn’t mean he’s not a good capt and good rugby player but not lock.

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  74. @Kattes-Strofes: so SARU contracts players @ u20 level? How many? Isn’t this maybe the biggest issue? @ u20 level your only contract should be to your union or institute. Surely if you have contracted a group of players and spending the money on them you are committed and have no choice but to play them. In saying so there’s no place for the “late bloomer”. They should have a home union contract and once selected for baby Boks receive a good match fee or let’s call it Baby Bok Bonus. Then a coach has the whole pool of u20s to select his best JWC squad. That’s incl u19 stars available.

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  75. More manne, ek wou net se dat in my 21jaar van afrigting en om met jong manne te werk , het my geleer dat ,dit maak nie saak hoe jy daarna gaan kyk nie ,maar daar is geen kans vir die Baby Boks om deur te gaan nie,,, Daar is nog spelers wat in die span is wat nog nie eers n kans gekry het om te speel nie ,volgens reels moet almal speel so in Woensdag se game sal al daai kantlyn siters moet speel , En onder hulle is die swart prop wat net 20 min gespeel het die eerste game. Daaris spelers wat oorskat word en nog skole rugby wil speel op internationale vlak. Die ander groot ding is dat die u/20 rugby net gaan swakker en swakker word soos die jare aan gaan , met al die politieke inmenging in ons rugby . Maar soos die Hoof van SARU gese het in n toespraak ; It is not about winning is about pleasing the people of the Country ; Ek voel regtig jammer dat Talentvolle jong manne van Suid -African moet plek maak vir spelers wat gekies word om “the People of The Country the please “.

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  76. @the coach: I don’t know about weaker from next year. From last year’s CW and coming year we have some great players of colour on merit. Honesty requires us to accept that the quality of SA coaching is weak. So many milking the system within rugby. My personal opinion is that our senior level coaching and management have no vision. As soon as they feel they in trouble we defend defend kick and chase. I know we have young skilled players there’s no doubt. But our asset management is poor. Contracts are signed far too quickly. We should implement salary caps on u21s unless the talent is so good he plays immediately for a superrugby franchise then he can negotiate accordingly. This will then focus on rugby not individuals. But as a whole our coaching needs a shake up only Ackerman is performing. The rest are producing dull kick,chase, tackle hope rugby!

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  77. @spot: We need 5 points , period. If The baby Blacks win and don’t get the bonus point then we go through. That seems to be where we are. There are other perms like Aus beating England but that I believe is a long shot. We need to look at how the pool b results go and that will determine what we need to do.

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  78. Why should a coach have to read thr riot act to players representing their country? Life is not going to treat you well if that is how you need to be motivated.

    @ploeg Dink jy dat daar enige scout in ons land is wat dag na dag videos kyk van spelers? As jy dedication wil sien gaan Google Mel Kiper Jr. Hy scout elke jaar elke liewe College Football speler in Amerika en ken almal op naam en kyk ure se videos om spelers te leer ken. Ek luister soms na sy podcast net om te hoor hoe die man sy job tackle elke dag.

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  79. @CharlesZA: Ek sal verbaas wees indien daar so iemand is. Soos voorheen genoem werk meeste ouens ongelukkig meestal op hoorsê en reputasie, gefilterde inligting. Behalwe vir basiese minimum posisionele fisiese vereistes, vra mense maar min oor minimum posisionele teikens en nog minder oor ‘n speler se off field profile, wat karakter, doelgerigdheid in afseisoen of recovery, deursettingsvermoeë en geaardheid insluit

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  80. @Buffel: I hear you. Dawie has now put his faith in the u19’s in the squad. Problem is they are in the most critical positions. 15, 10 and 9. Time for these boys to repay the coach. However, I agree with other comments that it will be all over by the time SA takes the field.

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  81. Bulls dodged a bullet by not signing Bosch….he doesn’t have heart on “D” at 10…..due to political pressure white players like De Beer, Keyter & Joubert had to miss out on representing their country disgraceful.

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  82. @Muzi: Won’t say that I agree but I remember Keyter as the star in a struggling Affies side in 2014. Exceptional talent.

    Die 2014 CW was vir my (persoonlike opinie) teleurstellend en so ook die SA-skolespan.Dit was selfde dat ek oortuigende spel gesien het. Ek dink mense kyk te diep hierin. Die Baba Bokke sal volgende jaar weer baie sterk wees.

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  83. Muzi my maat ek stem saam met jou, De Beer was die beste 10 in die land laas jaar en Joubert die beste 15 . het gestraand perongeluk op die game van doe Sharks teen die Bulle op SS 10 af gekom en sien toe Joubert speel 14 vir die Sharks CC span en het n prag individuele drie geduk en ek het net weer besef hoe talentvolle speller hy is… Ek sal nie een van die twee bgn spelers kwalik neem as hulle oor see wil gaan speel nie.

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  84. The 2014 SA Schools squad is:

    Fullbacks: Morné Joubert (Glenwood HS, KwaZulu-Natal), Eduan Keyter (Affies, Blue Bulls), Keanu Vers (Grey HS, Eastern Province).

    Wings: Nazo Nkala (Welkom Gimnasium, Griffons), Jerry Danquah (Queens College, Border), Andell Loubsher (Menlo Park, Blue Bulls).

    Centres: Barend Smit (HTS Middelburg, Pumas), JT Jackson (Oakdale Agric, SWD).

    Flyhalves: Curwin Bosch (Grey HS, Eastern Province), Thinus de Beer (Waterkloof, Blue Bulls).

    Scrumhalves: Marko Janse van Vuuren (HS Transvalia, Valke), Embrose Papier (Garsfontein, Blue Bulls).

    Loose forwards: Jakobus Coetzee (Glenwood, KwaZulu-Natal), Junior Pokomela (Grey HS, Eastern Province), Edmund Rheeder (HS Klerksdorp, Leopards), Cobus Wiese (HS Upington, Griquas Country Districts), Victor Maruping (Louis Botha, Free State), Arnold Gerber (Menlo Park, Blue Bulls).

    Locks: Eduard Zandberg (Outeniqua HS, SWD), Jaco Willemse (Paarl Gimnasium, Western Province), Ashton Fortuin (Southdown College, Blue Bulls).

    Hookers: Jan-Henning Campher (Garsfontein, Blue Bulls), Le Roux Baard (Outeniqua HS, SWD).

    Props: Ignatius Prinsloo (Grey College, Free State), Sarel-Marco Smit (Eldoraigne, Blue Bulls), Ngonidzashe Chidoma (Northwood HS, KwaZulu-Natal), Michael Kumbirai (St Albans College, Blue Bulls), Lupumlo Mguca (Daniel Pienaar, Eastern Province).

    Coach: Hein Kriek (Paul Roos, Western Province)

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  85. Not sure where to place this – but an interesting read on referee abuse at lower levels – and not rugby only. really is an issue at all levels – have seen some hockey umpires getting shouted at too unfortunately this year.

    Really great to see schools like Weston, Hilton, St Charles and Maritzburg College encouraging young pupils to get involved in reffing – but all of us spectators need to tow the line too.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/a-shortage-of-young-referees-due-to-abuse-from-parents-and-coaches/article570900/

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  86. @Rugger fan: My son is coaching school
    And club hockey at the moment. Umpires a lot, especially the club tournaments at the u10 – U12 level. The abuse is just silly. A few weeks ago he stopped his game, walked over to a dad, pointed at his bag which was lying nearby and told him to grab a spare whistle and come onto the field and blow (my boy was umpiring on his own). The big ole dad went very quiet and 1/2 apologized, told the lightie to carry on. U10, come on, percent need to get a grip.

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  87. @Gungets Tuft: I might be sometimes a bit vocal here..but I am the quietest sport spectator you will ever see..because I have played, coached and umpired some sports in my time…I still dont get why parents feel the urge to shout at officials..be it hockey , cricket or rugby. I just don’t understand.

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  88. @BoishaaiPa: Indeed. I don’t know why parents feel the urge to shout at anyone, not officials for sure, but much less the kids. My son went to a certain Durban primary school where the parent were absolutely diabolical. It was embarrassing to be around them. One of the moms, on a Cape Town tour that we all followed one year, was loudly heard to describe the ref in sexually gynecological terms. Eeisch. Eventually one other dad and myself refused to sit with the schools parents, we took ourselves off to the opposite corner of the field and just chilled, often with the opposition parents. Many on the forum would be surprised if I trotted out the names of the culprits :roll:

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  89. I guess all the Curwin Bosch haters are waiting for him to cock up before they start ranting.

    Buffel – if I was coach of the Boks,your son would be in my squad for the Championship.

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  90. So na al die gemoan en afbreek en sleg se is die bokkies toe deur na die semis.

    Ek dink ons het vergeet dis in Engeland. Australie het twee keer verloor en AB’s het verloor teen Ierland en net net gewen teen Wallis.

    Daar is baie gepraat oor ‘n sekere Davids wat net ‘n “show pony” is. Hy het ‘n baie goeie drie gedruk en ‘n paar balle gesteel. Dan is daar uit die boland gemoan oor ‘n sekere stut van Bellville. Daar is ‘n paar balle op die Franse se ingooi gewen en goed skoongemaak deur die man. Ja hy duik nie op in die vleul kanaal nie maar hy doen sy werk!!!

    Hierdie span kan ons almal verras en die beker wen en wat se ons dan?

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  91. @Playa: to be fair Papier played well. Has x-factor. Hall a different kind of player. We lucky to have theae guys to be honest. in previous years we’ve struggled at 9

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  92. @Gungets Tuft: My daughter also umpires and as far as I know there is a rule (or does hockey also have “laws”?) that a team’s captain could be sent off if there is misbehaviour from that team’s coaching staff. Is this not applicable to supporters as well?

    Must say I’ve been to many hockey games and tournaments over the last 6 years (going to Bloem again last week of June), and I have never experienced that kind of spectator behaviour. Rugby, often!

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  93. @Buffel: Well they through I must say I didn’t believe they would get that lucky. I was surprised to see the ABs so poor. Franchies were on fire till quite deep in. But bonus point and by 22 points was too much.

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  94. @tzavosky: Not sure about players being sent off for coaching behaviour, never seen that. I have seen the coaches getting banished from the field of play. My son doesn’t umpire at that level, I doubt he would ever send off a player for the coaching staff behaviour. I’ll find out though.

    Agree I’ve never seen behaviour at hockey that I’ve seen at rugby. A ref mate of mine once got punched in the face by a father after an U20 match …

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  95. @Slam: WTF is Muesli?!?!..how old are you like 12 or something?!?! so I see Bosch finally grew a pair of balls last night good for him now we will see how he does in the playoffs…don’t get ahead of yourself fan boy it ain’t over until the fat lady sings.

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  96. Papier & Pollard FLAMES!!!!!…in 2017/2018 that could be a good 9/10 for the Bulls.

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  97. It took a loss against Argentina for Dawie Theron to pick the best side against France?!?!?!…..I WANT to see Jaco Kriel….Warren Whitely….Ruan Combrinck…Franco Mostert & Elton Jantjies in the match day squad against Ireland or else I ain’t fucking watching the Springbok on Saturday.

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  98. @Playa: Cry Me A River……Curwin Bosch was pathetic at 10 on “D” against Argentina….he looked scared to put his body on the line….why should he get a free pass?!?!…I stand by what I said about him he deserved to get crucified by me…15 is his best position IMHO.

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  99. Goeie more manne, as iemand iets goed doen moet ons krediet aan daardie person gee en Curwin Bosch ,Libbok en Papier het regtig goed gespeel en van al die games wat gister gespeel was het die jong Bokkies n baie baie mooi game gespeel wat lekker was om te kyk. Nou moet ons fokus op Engeland en hoop ons kan die selfde game speel en vir 80 min. Ander lekke ding is die All Blacks is uit …… Yes Please ….

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  100. Baby Boks better but still not great, very lucky to get that win. Bosch played well. Where is Zandberg? Baby Blacks completely bullied by the Welsh, surprised they squeaked that one. Only world class player in their side was the 15. England will probably bully us up front again!

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  101. @Grasshopper: At 24-13 to Les Bleu, I did not think we would come back and win. Lets give the baby Boks some credit. To come back as they did at least shows character.

    You’re right, the baby boks are going to struggle up front against the English. Lets hope they can give some ball to the backs. Do you know how many of the English played against our SA schools in 2014?

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  102. @AntonT: Die stut het ‘n beter game gehad gister, hoop hy kan op die vertoning bou. Maar ter agtergrond, ek skiet nie net uit die heup nie, is goed vetroud met hom en het sy span vir 3 jaar geborg so het ‘n beter spelerprofiel van hom op en van die veld as meeste. Selfde geld vir Davids, ongetwyfeld ‘n spesiale speler sedert LS, maar eerder ‘n 12 as 6 in my opinie. Bosch is ‘n 15

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  103. @kosie: side vs SA U18 in 2014

    England Under 18 team to play South Africa
    15 Taylor Prell (Giggleswick School & Yorkshire Carnegie)
    14 Kai Little (Hartpury College)
    13 Max Clark (Bryanston School & Bath Rugby)
    12 Harry Mallinder (Rugby School & Northampton Saints) – In U20 squad, been playing at 10
    11 Rotimi Segun (Stowe School & Northampton Saints)
    10 Rory Jennings (Bryanston School & Bath Rugby)
    9 Will Homer (Sherborne School & Bath Rugby)
    1 Lewis Boyce (Prince Henry’s & Yorkshire Carnegie) – in U20 squad
    2 Ollie Adams (St Pauls Catholic College & London Irish)
    3 Ciaran Parker (St Ambrose & Sale Sharks)
    4 Kieran Treadwell (John Fisher & Harlequins)
    5 Joe Batley (Hartpury College & Gloucester Rugby)
    6 Charlie Beckett (QEW & Leicester Tigers) (c)
    7 Sam Underhill (Sir Thomas Rich’s School & Gloucester Rugby)
    8 Lewis Ludlam (St Joseph’s College & Northampton Saints)
    Replacements:
    16 James Fish (Trent College & Northampton Saints)
    17 Owen Hills (QEW & Leicester Tigers)
    18 Seb Adeniran-Olule (Wellington College & Harlequins)
    19 Joe Maksymiw (QEW & Leicester Tigers)
    20 George Nott (Kings School Chester & Sale Sharks) – In U20 squad
    21 Joe Marchant (Peter Symonds & Harlequins) – In U20 squad
    22 Ollie Thorley (Cheltenham College & Gloucester Rugby) – In U20 squad
    23 John Williams (St Pauls College & London Irish) – In U20 squad
    24 Cameron Cowell (St Pauls College & London Irish)
    25 Theo Brophy Clews (Abingdon School & London Irish) – Was in u20 squad, injured so out of tournament

    I’m surprised England didn’t push for Sam Underhill to be included in this squad. There was actually talk of him being fast tracked into the England senior side setup.

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  104. @Slam: England’s pool of players is almost 5 times that of SA’s and these young men have been playing club level for 3 years already. They play together in the 6 nations too so should whip us! Maybe we should be fast tracking the best at around 16, Grant Khomo level. Into an academy together…

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  105. @Muzi: I’ve suggested 12 on a number of occasions to the relevant parties, but keep in mind that the extremely talented Cornel Smit has the inside lane at 12 in my opinion, outside Williams and Chait with Britz at 2nd center. Don’t believe he has enough top-end speed for 13 though, so maybe 12 is something to try at a later stage. For the purpose of the u19 comp he will still do well at 6, maybe just pick a blind and 8 that balances the loosies

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  106. @Grasshopper: Seeing that the 6N u.20’s are doing quite well at this Junior WC, it’s probably time for the 4 SH teams to start a similar competition, running concurrently with the Championship.

    I would suggest bringing the u.19 CC forward and let the national u.19’s then play during the Championship with a view to preparation for the next year’s Junior WC.

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  107. @tzavosky: Completely agree, 4 Nations – Argies, SA, Aus and NZ. These Northern buggers are getting to confident now…

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  108. @Ploegskaar: Hoekom praat jy van Chait op 13 (as ek reg verstaan)? Volgens my n uitstekende skole 10 gewees. Speel hy daar by die WP akademie? Ek weet WP het vd Bank, George en Grobler van HJS as moontlike loskakels. Weet jy hoe lyk die situasie daar en hoe hulle o19 Currie Cup gaan aanpak?

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  109. @Gimoldboy
    Gister het Chiat op 10 begin met van der Bank wat later hom vervang het. Cornel Smit was beseer met George Lourens wat die wedstryd op 12 begin het in ‘n wedstryd waarin die WP Instituut span teen ‘n WP 0/21 span wat hoofsaaklik uit WP akademie spelers en so ‘n paar WP 0/19 spelers van 2015 bestaan het.

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  110. @Ploeg

    Ek was daar die WP 0/19 span kort nog 5 SA 0/20 voorspelers maar as die WP 0/21 voltallig is sal daai driee telling van gister net omgedraai wees in die 0/21 span se guns.

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  111. @Scrum5: Ek sal ‘n geldjie betaal om die 2 groepe op volle sterkte te sien jol, en nog ‘n geldjie op die o19 groep sit

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  112. @odie15: I think he’s a great talent and a great prospect.More than just me liking him,there were some Muzirable comments made about him on the blog last year which didn’t sit too well with me.

    @Slam: Agreed on Papier.Quality player.It’s just that having watched Hall over the last year he has been the type of scrumhalf I like.He’s like a super charged version of me as a scrummy in my time :mrgreen: .We certainly don’t have to worry about the 9 Jersey in tears to come.Both of them are full value.

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  113. @Ploegskaar: hmmmm he’s a loosie. Him and visser awesome combo…..next year should be Best combos available. De Villiers/moerat, visser/davids and best of all Duimpie/Smit/Ras

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  114. @Ploegskaar: ploegie I love banter everyone has an opinion. Cornel Smit is an awesome talent. The space he creates is phenomenal. His combo with Manny last year reminded me of Michael dup and Danie Gerber. That’s my favourite of all time. I have yet to see a combo beat them. (Even AB combos)

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  115. @odie15: I didn’t have the pleasure of watching them. Only a few highlights.
    My all-time favourite is the Tim Horan-Jason Little combo! As Aussie as they are.

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  116. @Playa: They were good Horan/little that is. But there’s no doubt Gerber most special player ever. Was fortunate to be at Northerns Tech in 94. The Boks were on NZ tour. While we ran the lines at practice he spoke of the 81 tour….listening to him was amazing. The time we had those days just talking rugby and his experiences was unbelievable. I was 22 playing /running on same field as my 80s hero. The speed he did average rugby at was awesome. And when he did awesome things at speed opposition watched in awe…..do yourself a favour and get a copy of Springbok Saga. Also battle of the Giants the NZ Cavaliers. In a 4 Test series we scored 96-62. I believe scoring 13 tries to 4. Will need to confirm that. He names Willie and Michael duP as his favourite partners in his book. But I saw him more with Michael. Michael duP was a genius both inside center and flyhalf but that era only Naas was the flyhalf so Michael at inside was natural choice. I am a spoilt rugby watcher I watched the greatest there’s been. The WP backs of the 80s ran the ball under Dawie Snyman. They were in 9 out of 11 finals from 1979 to 1989. Winning 5 in a row and 2 draws. But I have yet to see a Bok center pair equal to them….never mind a pair that dominated opposition totally in their era.

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  117. @Grasshopper: They only played together 93,94….. Fuls ended up too many injury problems to play for Boks but if I recall quite a long first class career. Pieter Muller was strong but also injuries.

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  118. @odie15: Interesting him naming Willie Doep, as Willie was the only local guy whom I saw that could really contain Gerber. I don’t think he ever played with Peter Whipp, but I would have loved to see that – Whipp made anyone playing with him look good (even Johan Oosthuyzen).

    As for Pieter Muller, he was the prototype of the modern bashing IC, not my kind of player.

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  119. @tzavosky: whipp was class and no I don’t believe Danie play with him.

    @BoishaaiPa: yeah as a Boishaaier he stands out. Mr Vic Fourie spoke fondly of his attempts to get Mannetjies to conform a bit to involve the rest of the backs. I believe he asked him to not just Sprint to the whitewash after taking the gap. He should rather slow down and scan for support pass to be in better scoring positions. Then at Interschools I think it was u15/u16 Mannetjies took the gap was straight through slowed down drew the fullback passed to support player who fumbled knocked on…..They lost that game as it was last min gasp, he was never again told what to do. The Boks in that 2 decades were awesome. I don’t doubt for a minute had there been RWC we would have won at least 4 out of every 5 we were that dominant. Only the 74 Lions were better. But Lions couldn’t compete in a RWC. We know the story of final test in 81. But cowboys don’t cry.

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  120. Odie 15.Mannetjies finished school at Paarl Boys in the late 50’s whilst Vic Fourie only started to teach at Boishaai in the 70’s.

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  121. Is SA playing or just making up the numbers. 5 min two tries against. Cant do this anymore. Changing to soccer. Goodbye.

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  122. If we believe it is just coaching and quotas we are only fooling ourselves. In other words if we get a better coach we’ll win the junior WC. What are we smoking ?

    Let’s be brutally honest with each other :

    1. We have a system problem from the beginning to end.
    2. Tonight’s match – professional vs amateur
    3. England’s group have been in intensive academies for last 4 years. Our team was selected 4 weeks ago. The coach still does not know the top halfbacks – 4 different sets in 4 matches.
    4. England played 5 tests earlier this year + a number of other warm-up matches. We played 3 pickup matches against secondrate teams.
    5. We have the best schoolboy players in the world, but 2 years later very few can compete at under 20. Why ?
    6. Do we have an under 19 or 20 competition leading up to the WC ? No.
    7. The England players feature in professional senior squads. How many of our players have played or even feature in super 16 squads.

    By amateurish planning and inadequate structures and coaching we lead our talented players like lambs to the slaughter. The rest of the world is leaving us behind and it has absolutely squat to do with quotas. The exact same can be said about our senior side.

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  123. @robbie: totally agree with you! You can’t cobble together a side a month before the tourno and expect to win it. The SA Schools & Academy teams should be looked after. Either we set up a tri-nations with Aus & NZ or the SA under 20 side should play in the Varsity Cup or something to start to gel. I reckon any of our top10 school sides would have given that team a run for its money, bloody embarrassing.

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  124. @robbie: what was worse was having to listen to that English twat Dewi Morris commentate, jeepers how bias can one get!

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  125. Baby Boks deserved to get hammered….that’s the price you pay for leaving out the best white players and balancing the demographics in the squad with black/coloured players that are out of their depth at this level…I feel sorry for players like De Beer, Keyter, Joubert, Jaco Willemse ect….you guys were screwed over by the selectors…..it will be interesting to watch Bosch at Super Rugby level especially on “D”…..he will get exposed at that level like I said he doesn’t have heart….in one of the tries scored by England he showed zero commitment….pathetic if you ask me.

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  126. @Muzi: James Venter & Jaco Coetzee would have made a difference and that’s just two Glenwood OB’s I know…

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  127. @robbie: You make a number of good and valid points! Problem is that SARU is so busy with other issues that no one is taking the lead in sorting out rugby…

    SA rugby is in big trouble… I said it earlier and I will stand by that… we have forgotten the essence of the game and unfortunately alot of it is due to coaching (and I am not referring to dawie theron only). Our core skills are slowly eroding…. Players who had great skills at school suddenly cannot pass a ball, cannot step, cannot think for themselves! The defense of the junior boks last night was weak… no line speed, very compressed and this is a system issue ie coaching… I saw the glaring flaws in their defensive system in the beginning of the tournament and obviously so did the poms and the rest is history…

    our franchise coaches each do their own thing and have their own opinions on attack and defense! There is no working together between them to improve the Springboks way of play… without proper leadership from SARU (which probably wont happen) and a change in the thought process of SA rugby in general plus better coaching we are unfortunately doomed… Some of you spoke about the flaws in selecting the side and you are probably correct but you will see that nothing changes for next year’s tournament… There are many issues beside the selection adding to our problems but writing all of that down on this blog will keep keep me busy the whole day…

    Graham Henry wrote an article in the week saying that the springboks have lost their aura of invincibility… He is so right! Nobody who can do something about it seems to realise it though… The boks maybe should’ve lost to ireland by 50 and loose every other game this year for people to wake up… I have never heard a bok team being booed in my life at halftime… I was at ellispark on Saturday and i have never ever seen a performance as poor as that first half by a bok team!

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  128. @Muzi: I must agree with you on bosch… very talented but he just does not tackle and runs himself out of most tackle scenarios…

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  129. @Robbie: We have the most professional school boy setup in world rugby in terms of sponsorship, rankings, festivals and the acquisition of players. Unfortunately we also have the worst coaching of the major rugby nations. We seek quick fixes rather than proper coaching structures.
    One only has to look at the makeup of the CW teams to see the problem is getting worse and worse. Most regions are represented by a few schools who are totally dominant.
    At school level we play to be ranked not to win leagues/ competitions.
    Our rugby is in huge trouble and the problems have their origins in school boy rugby.

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  130. Muzi, making a good hoo-haa about quota selections will get us nowhere. If we highlight the quota players as weak, I can mention a few white players who shouldn’t have been there. The only two players I can see progressing to senior rugby are no. 6 and 15. Both players of colour. Are they quotas or are you using selective thinking. We have far bigger problems than quotas.

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  131. Article on friends Facebook page;

    Article
    “Springboks have no fire and pride… I’m struggling to understand why”
    Admin – never thought the day would come when we’d have to educate ex-AB coach Graham Henry WHY. But here it is.
    After SA’s loss to Ireland, he said: “In my time as All Black coach, when we played against Bok teams… you knew you were in for an absolute war. That fire and pride seems to be dying slowly and I am struggling to understand why.”
    Mr Henry, let me tell you why.
    The Springboks are developing a new team after losing the old guard of Matfield, Bakkies, du Preez, the du Plessis brothers, Habana and de Villiers. That includes three former Bok captains. A devastating outflow of talent and experience that has crippled the team.
    The new captain, Strauss, comes from the Bulls who are lying 4th in the SA Group of Super Rugby. He’s probably our 3rd best Hooker after Bismarck (playing in France) and Marx (Lions). Consequently, the players don’t respect him as captain. The real captains are Duane Vermeulen and Warren Whiteley.
    Our new coach, AC, former Stormers, comes from a losing rugby culture. Twice a Super semi-finalist, he failed to bring home trophies. His claim to fame is assistant to Jake White at RWC2007. But in nine years he’s been unable to win anything as head coach in any league, except the Currie Cup. His assistant coaches have no record, reputation or respect from the players.
    AC’s player selection is prejudiced against the Lions, our best Super Rugby team. In the 2nd Irish test, he fielded 5 Stormers, 4 Sharks and only 3 Lions. The Springboks first half performance was worse than the entire 1st test against Ireland. By the end of the 2nd test, there were 7 Lions on the field – 2 scored, and SA staged an unlikely comeback to win.
    AC’s coaching has come under major criticism. He himself acknowledges the inferior skills of our forwards in the contact, incorrect body positions, slow cleaning out leading to slow ball. Backline skills are well below par. AC has not revealed a clear vision of the game he wants to play, and the players are confused. He talks a lot about “values”. In fact, that’s his problem. An ex-teacher, he’s a prolific talker but not a doer.
    It shouldn’t be an excuse, but injuries have removed key players – Lambie, Skalla and Lood. Others are recovering from injury and stuttering along – Vermeulen, Etzebeth and de Allende. Additionally, the Rio Olympics has robbed us of Habana and Hougaard.
    All of the above is enough to undermine any team. We supporters understand it’s difficult changing the guard, and expect teething problems. But worse things are going on behind the scenes, Mr Henry.
    Let’s address your main complaint – that the Springboks have no “fire and pride”.
    Firstly, coach AC is a political appointment, chosen under some vague SARU transformation agenda. The real coach, Ackerman, sits in the wings. His time will come once we’re through the AC mess. Because for sure one thing is true – worse is to come.
    ‘Transformation’ is a massively contentious issue tearing our rugby apart. Debilitating quota targets have been set for RWC19. The psychological effect on Springbok rugby can only be described as poisonous.
    Pride in one’s country is a luxury you Kiwis have. NZ is a united nation, its colonial heritage long reconciled. You have no racial antagonism with only small economic differences between your people. You also have no corruption, according to the Corruption Perceptions Index, and stable government. It’s easy to be a proud Kiwi.
    SA is the opposite. We have a vast difference between rich and poor, with the world’s highest unemployment rate. We’re a country of deep division with increasing racial tension. We’re deeply corrupt, from the President downwards, with daily violent protests against poor governance. Money is pouring out the country; qualified people are fleeing. The cost of living spirals with a weakening Rand and high inflation. The Liberation Movement that brought in 1994‘s democracy remains in power, voted in by an uneducated majority who are held in mental slavery – because the government denies them education. Some say genocide is being committed against our farmers – 4000 murdered so far. I could go on but I don’t want to bore you, Mr Henry.
    Just ask the average Saffer, and you will hear – there’s little to be proud of.
    So here’s the snapshot. If chosen for the Springboks, you’re in a young team under a new coach you don’t trust. You have little confidence in your captain, and few senior players to follow. You suspect maybe a better player than you should be in the team. You knuckle down and play for the guy next to you, but he has similar insecurities. You play for your country but it’s not one you’re proud of. You hope one day you’ll get a foreign rugby contract. The you can earn big bucks to fund a rugby retirement being eroded by the sliding Rand.
    In contrast, NZ has an inferiority complex compared to it’s big brother, Australia – which means you Kiwis have a desire to prove yourselves in all aspects. That’s why you have fire and hope and pride and brilliance in your rugby.
    SA is the crumbling giant of Africa. There’s no more fire and pride here. Only pessimism and depression. That, Mr Henry, can be seen in our rugby.

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  132. @robbie: Agree on a lot of points you made. Problem starts at the top. Dawie Theron had for a long period no selector to help him with selections, ( If that would have made a difference). He then followed his own head and the results and selections proofed it. His side – kicks are so worried about their jobs and did not give any input. The assistant coach were involved at Western Province 0/19 last year – at the least he could give some input on Kuyter , Coetzee, Willemse etc

    About the team. One cannot always blame quotas for everything. Why weren’t players picked to complement these players. Combinations combinations. Some players did not play in one of the warm up games. Ruan Brits (2) had to play in the last few games because an injury to one of the hookers.

    To blame Bosch for his defense in this tournament is valid. Again defense is a commitment not a skill. Just have a look of the last try of the Poms yesterday. One of the subs ran like a sheepdog behind the flock. No commitment , no urgency to make the tackle.

    It is a pity Papier got injured. He at least had variety in his play. The rest had less variety than the road between Laingsburg and Beaufort West. They made it easy for the oppositions defense. One way traffic to the fly half.

    The work rate of some of the players really impressed. De Villers , Davids and Jackson tried hard. Van der Merwe showed signs of his abilities but he did not get the ball in space. The other wing? Oh no

    Well another tournament gone. Maybe – next year – new coach – new hope!!!

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  133. @Muzi: So Muzi…….I remember you stating that Libbok was gonna run the show from 10,,,,,,,,,I am now terribly worried if you are involved with rugby at any level.

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  134. @robbie: although the two players you mention (6 and 15) are not “white”, they are definitely not quota. Both are merit players, although I agree that Bosch actually appeared a bit scared in defense. Libbok cannot tackle either and have this fascination with his own individual brilliance. Has no ability to set his backline up. Right wing (14), may have speed but has very limited ball sense (and sense of space).
    As @rugbyman mentioned, the defensive setup was pathetic (even the scramble defense was poor – no trust in player next door). But defense can be trained in a few weeks – what the hell did they do in past few weeks?
    Loss due to poor coaching and some very bad player selections (part of it being quota, but not all).

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  135. @grasshopper: agree with you on poor locks. They seemed physical but conceded penalties and did not apply themselves to really make a difference. Efforts seemed unco-ordinated.
    Pick and drives where support cannot clean effectively(or too few support players) – the Poms stole multiple balls right in front of their try line. Really basic stuff not done correctly by “baby” boks.

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  136. Got to love Muzi listing Jaco Willemse as someone who should feel hard done by “quotas” considering there is not a single player of colour in the 2nd row, goes to show how baseless your argument is? Masolwa Mafuma was the Varsity Cup player that rocks, Manie Libbok had quite a good few games in Currie Cup, Sbu Nkosi was a form winger in u19 comp and good for UKZN earlier this year! Curwin Bosch so far ahead of most u20 flyhalves, it’s not funny! Junior Pokomela far and away best 8 in the comp last year. Tango a standout for EP Championship side last year. Keanu Vers a versatile player capable at 13 and in the back 3, talented and u19 winning fullback last year.Papier looks a real good prospect! Zain Davids admittedly not the best technical player, but very talented and there were merits to his inclusion! So please spare me the quotas rubbish!

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  137. More manne . ek het nou gestraand probeer na die BB game kyk, en ek coach al vir baie jare en regtig Bosch is soos n skou perd, hy het n attitude problem, as hy onder druk is skreeu hy op sy mede spanmaats, elke keer as hy gevang word met bal in besit dan is hy geirriteer met die op opposisie en hulle het die reels oortree . Die bal word op hom geskop (up and under ) dan wag hy dat ander spelers die bal moet vat en hy trippel nader in die rigting van die bal . Hy is die last line of defence en soos ons almal weer eens gesien het … geen commitment …. @BrotherBear; Moerat is n goeie speller maar volgende jaar moet die SA Schools en U/20 Baby Boks uit 50 % African spelers bestaan en dan nog die paar colourds wat moet plek kry….. Colourds tel nie meer as quota nie … So my maat Moerat gaan a lonely brother wees in daai span. Wat my plae is die feit dat daar nog twee Backline players is wat nog nie eers gespeel het nie in die name Gans wat senter speel en Vers wat n Heelagter is …. Wanneer gaan Theron hulle speel…..? Gans is baie skerp seun en was die Hoofseun by Waterkloof en studeer by Tukkies hy is al van die 19 Maart weg van sy klasse en studies …. net om vir die Baby Boks te speel en daar sit hy… Dit gaan nie help om van u/16 in n high performance squad te speel en hoop jy gaan u/20 die wereld beker wen nie.. Ja soos in NZ of Engeland is die seun in so HP groep maar hulle is almal die beste spelers wat in daai lande is . Ek kan nou twee nuwe U/20 spanne op die veld sit wat kringe om hierdie huidige SA 28 Groep spelers sal speel en asb ek soek nie vir Bosch of LIbbok in my span nie.

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  138. @Ludz: Dude, Bosch isn’t that hot. Remember rugby is not only about attack. He is a liability of defence. Chait is light years ahead of him. Even Tedder has a better allround game. It’s not about quotas it’s about the coaching, management and strategy from SARU. These guys need more than a handful of games to gel.

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  139. Not that it would have probably mattered in the end, but did anyone notice with the first two England tries they won both turnovers coming in from the side and should have been penalties to us?..That gave them the momentum and we could never recover from that.

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  140. @Grasshopper: Moerat is a big physical player but I don’t know if the second rower would hold his own (yet) at U20 international level. The tight 5 sometimes come through later. Great prospect but they shouldn’t pull a Goosen or Serfontein on the guy. The same applies to JJvdM. Enjoyed your comments though.
    @Brotherbear: @Ludz: The quota expectation is an absolute and in my view most of those guys deserve their jerseys and should enjoy our collective support. Players don’t select themselves and good players don’t like the quota label any more than the average rugby supporter out there. I think it is a rugby problem. I think our approach might not be professional enough and our players are not exposed to high level rugby (as with the English team who seem to be the trend setters at the moment). I also think Theron serves SA Rugby very well for a long time but he is on his way out and that is part of any career as it is part of rugby. I think the selection strategy is not effective at the moment. Hope to hear his comments about the campaign and state of affairs soon. Of this team I don’t expect too many future superstars although I did enjoy Zain Davids’ efforts and also Bosch (on attack). Libbok did not seem as good as expected though. Hope they beat Argentina but it will be tough. Maybe they will give the guys a run that have not had opportunity to play much.

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  141. @Grasshopper: Their was a couple of dodgy decisions going against us, but I dont think it would have mattered in the end…it could have made the game a bit closer though and not create all this doom and gloom! ..

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  142. @BoishaaiPa: @Grasshopper: Yes I agree on both counts. In from the side and that first one looked forward as well. Those were significant errors on behalf of the officials and gave England a solid foundation to build from.

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  143. @Grasshopper: Yet to see a boy in Bosch’s class, I want to see it with my own eyes, defence an important part of the game and Bosch struggles, no denying that, but it seems a little too much attention is paid to Bosch’s weaknesses which is odd considering how much excitement we usuallly have for exciting attacking talents, yet on this exceptional one, we always trying to find the negatives, that absolutely grinds my nuts!

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  144. Bosch NEEDS to grow a pair and man up on “D”….I ain’t going to give him a free pass….against Argentina he ran away from a tackle….maybe if he showed some commitment I’d be easy on him….BUT mammamia the guy looked scared to put his body on the line….if he wants to develop into a quality 10/15 he’ll have to work on his “D”….we all know he’s a good attacking player…..learn how to tackle bud.

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  145. @Ludz: so your argument is that the mentioned players are the best SA u/20 has to offer? REALLY? Then we are in REALLY BIG trouble, as their performance at this level has been rather pedestrian (given that some of the other non-PD players were even worse).
    Tries were scored by the Poms due to Bosch’s poor defense. Even though he has twinkle toes, he could not convert it into enough points for us to win – so do the two balance? Is he but an average player if not complete? Same argument for example goes for Jesse Kriel (not a PD or quota issue).
    If the truth and some facts sound a bit negative then you will be suffering from “blou balle” for a while to come. Hehehe

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  146. @Grasshopper: Bosch is a talented player BUT massively overrated…everyone thinks he’s Dan Carter 2.0…agree with you on Tedder..Chair…hell even Van Der Bank….I can guarantee you defensively they would put a better shift.

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  147. @Ludz: Did you ever watch Morne Joubert or Eduard Keyter, those two alone have similar attacking ability but far better on defence. Morne just played for the Sharks in Mauritius in the 10’s tourno there. This is not a race debate so please don’t go down that route….

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  148. @Grasshopper: Bosch should have been flyhalf and Morne Joubert selected at fullback end of. Libbock is the most overrated flyhalf I have seen. He might have some x factor but defensively he has been a liability. Dawie missed a trick here.

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  149. @Ludz: ….playing 10/15 is not only about attacking…..Bosch got exposed on “D”…it’s all about attitude and heart….it was disgraceful to watch he ran away from contact….because he didn’t want to get hurt….sorry bud that’s not good enough for me….like I said in 2015 Earl Rose 2.0….

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  150. @Slam: I wish Bosch played 10 so everyone can see he’s woeful defensively…Dawie Theron put him at 15 to hide his “D” frailties….. Sharks have a talented player in Curwin but sorry bud he WILL get found wanting at Super Rugby level unless he learns how to put his body on the line.

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  151. @Muzi: That Mallinder kids was huge for a flyhalf, would have had a field day running over Bosch…

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  152. @Speartackle: As I pointed out, Im out of circulation- away from the media and TV. What is the cause for the depressing comments here? Oh yes, and how are “our boys” doing at the WC for U 20s ? Are we in the final?

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  153. @Grasshopper: Keyter for one played one or two games at 15 from u19s last year, so once again a baseless argument based on reputation or perceived ability! I never make anything about race, those who at the first sign of trouble blame transformation or quotas. As for Morne Joubert, watched him in a poor Sharks side last year and wasn’t blown away. Heard good things about him though, so maybe he was a miss, but what irks me is people who haven’t watch these kids since they were schoolboys screaming players of colour are inept when the coach is inept. That is unacceptable!

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  154. @BoishaaiPa: I could swear I heard the ref shout “Roll away white!”…only for a player in white to come away with the ball…and TRY TIME! Soon we’re going to need robots to ref rugby games

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  155. @Ludz: Boet if you think Morne Joubert is just OK then you haven’t seen him play. I have watched Bosch and co many times. Joubert is the complete package, attack and defence. Davids will end up like Shaun Adendorff, on the rubbish heap…too small. I think Libbock and co too, just too small…

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  156. @Grasshopper: Yes we did lose experience but not more than the ABs with McCaw,Carter,Nonu,Smith ect. How did they cope then? Listen to Hansen and he consistently refers to the big picture and concepts like a proactive” environment” and “shared leadership” and therefore they move seamlessly from one dynasty to the next. There are no unnecessary distractions and everyone from top to bottom is pulling in the same direction.In fact John Hart in giving a summation of the Boks prospects referred to ” quotas” as a potential pitfall. Let me give a ” potential” example of the Kiwi’s situation as opposed to our toxic one. The night before the last cricket WC semi final our selectors get a ” call” to change a selection which to all pundits is not logically supportable. The captain threatens to resign and the group are in disarray. How did the 2 players involved feel and what was the focus of the rest of the team when it should have been on one and one thing only? While this soap opera was playing out , the Kiwi’s were tucked up safely in bed readying themselves for the one challenge that mattered.Could the preparation have been more different. We ended up losing by a few runs which are the tight margins that exist at the top level.What honestly is surprising is that we are as competitive as we are in our team sports. In individual sports like golf SA punches well above its weight as the environment is personally managed. In swimming Chad Le Clos just gets on and does the business with the support of Bert.
    We can blame the coaches , training methods and even compare PD players against their white counterparts until the cows come home but it will all come to naught if the overall environment is a toxic one. That is why reference is made to the bok coaching job as “the poison chalice. ” By the way the concept of shared leadership is one of the reasons I like WW who is very much in the mould of Teich. :lol:

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  157. My two cents worth! I mentioned on another thread that the selection process is a huge problem. This has absolutely nothing do do with quotas. There is more than enough players of colour to merit their inclusion in the team. However, the problem lies with identifying the best players(black or white).

    I watched two of the warm up matches played by the Junior Boks. I knew already then that we will not make it, and was actually surprised that we qualified for the semis.
    Problem areas were the set scrums where our props got nailed. Lineouts, where both our hookers struggled with their lineout work. I do not think the locks were all that bad, and looked worse because of all the poor throw-ins from the hookers. Rubin de Villiers worked tireleesly in general play, and as the commentator mentioned, had the most tackles and metres made in the previous match. Our loosies were mostly good with ball in hand, but failed to do the donkey work in rucks and mauls,which ensured numerous turnovers for the opposition. Zane Davids is very good with ball in hand. However, he will have to up his workrate at the point of breakdown to become a top class flank.

    Agree that Libbok had a mare! Regarding Bosch, I do believe that he is a special player when he receives front foot ball. He has good vision, good hands and feet and a booming boot. As every one agrees, his defence can be his downfall. Proper ways of defending can be coached. However, it still requires heart and commitment, and that can’t be taught.
    He will need to get some serious counciling, to give him the confidence, heart and desire to stop opponents.

    Lastly, I do hope for that SA Rugby will appoint coaches for the future, that have the work ethics to go and watch the current 0/19 Currie cup competition, select on merit and have the ability to produce a game plan that will compliment his chosen players. These coaches still have the luxury of making use of SA Rugby’s rugby division, who have a number of top class specialists coaches.

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  158. @Tang: not so sure, about problems start at school. I believe the biggest problem is contracting of players at a early stage or contracting at all.I don’t have the answer but being in” the system” since GK days give you almost a 90% chance to get a contract. I have seen many good players at Tuks coming through on club level,but 95 % will not get a run at junior levels cause they are not contracted or contracted players have to play as stipulated in their contracts.I believe there need to be a fairer or more opportune system for non contracted players. If i look at last night’s team i cannot see more than 5 players make it into super rugby.Take a look at the bulls 2016 intake.I believe 50 boys are contracted…what a joke.I was told every player was guarantee game time,that’s basically admitting we have no clue of contracting and hoping we find a few good payers among 3 teams.I believe each franchise should be limited to 20 contracted players and then leave 10 positions open to players coming through a club system. In any case 0/19 players only start to play in June,that will leave enough time to find players through a system.That will also be an opportunity for player who payed CW or AW but who did not get contracted to show how good they are if they are hunger.

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  159. @Grasshopper: things are lively today!!!!!! Ruben de Villiers is a great lock. I think he is going to struggle in this team to look good. The 2014 batch is not that good in quality. Moerat/deVilliers best combo I have seen at this level. Even this year Salmaan is not as prevalent as last year in Boishaai team since Ruben and him split. I hope the 2 will be reunited ASAP…. those who been studying the school game over the years all knew that 2014 was a poor vintage. But there’s some champagne coming in near future. Libbok and Bosche well out their depth. This backline would be beaten by WP cravenweek backline easily. Even with Zac Burger now removed!

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  160. Let’s say Glenwood end up ranked 11th in SA, that leaves 10 teams in SA who could have won SANIX. Granted it’s not the hardest tourno in the world but Rotorua are Top10 is NZ. Glenwood beat them relatively easily with a very young side. What the f’ing hell is going on between school and Under20 WC? Granted boys get distracted by jolling & chicks but if they really want to be a professional player then they need to learn to not be distracted. The SA Schools players should all have Bok mentors who watch them and advise with interest. These ex Boks should stop bleating and put their hands up for mentorship. The team needs to be picked 6 months to a year prior to start prep. Even play in the Currie Cup or something to prepare them…..

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  161. @odie15: Ek stem as jy Henrde Stassen op 7 of 8 gekies het , ek rate alby daardie slotte maar dink ons kyk Hendre Stassen SA Skole A span kaptein mis wat vir die laaste game opgekom het verlede jaar , iemand wat die Engelse se gal bietjie kon werk , ons was geboelie voor en agter die heeltyd op die agtervoet . Ek is nie n kenner net n rugby liefhebber , maar ons agterlyn speel nie uit diepte , met Marco wat vir my bietjie lank gevat het om skoon te maak met die tree wat hy elke keer terug vat(baie onder druk) en nie die paas het van James was die Engelse op ons , 80% van die tyd het dit ons twee manne gevat om hul 13 Joe plat te trek en met vinnige bal wat hul wyd gespeel het waar ons wing Mosolwa elke keer na binne verdedig het en nie te praat van hul fly Harry 195 en 103kg in shape :lol: . Ons kan n paar spelers down run , maar gaan niks help .Engelse is goed afgerig en ek glo hul gaan die reeks wen.

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  162. @Grasshopper: I did say I watched him once last year, but reliably informed he was brilll, I just felt I had to point out inconsistencies like comparing a Keyter who played bulk of his rugby at 13. The unfortunate thing is we last watch these kids as schoolboys and think we have a right to punt them as u20s based on what we saw then.

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  163. @BoishaaiPa: I ask a simple and innocent question, sitting in isolation on the Algarve, with my toes in the mild waters of the Med, and you bite my head off.Every TV here, is focused on Portugal at the European Cup. Why so sensitive? They have obviously, but not surprizingly, lost. SA supporters will have to get use to it. Its going to become a lot more frequent. Ask Be-bub-a-loo-loo, the minister. And its only my good school education preventing me from reciprocating with a comparison. Let me order some more Aquardente to raise you from my memory.

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  164. @Ludz: Agreed, plenty develop after school so going from school boy star to Under20 star isn’t a given. I fear we might hype up schoolboy rugby so much that it’s the pinnacle for many boys. At some schools their 1st team boys are like gods and the girls love them. After school that hype dissipates and maybe that is where the boys lose focus and drop out. So maybe our pinnacle needs to be moved into higher age groups and up to the Boks. BUT this has happened because of watered down teams in Super Rugby & Currie Cup, not strength vs strength. Also at school there are no quotas, it’s merit only. Also, the traditions etc are so unique. So maybe we shooting ourselves in the foot putting schoolboy rugby on a pedestal…..

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  165. @Playa: @TW BOSS: @BoishaaiPa: @Grasshopper: We discuss all these boys at length. I flew up to Jbg on Sunday evening and sat next to Terra Lekota. He was quite vibrant and good person to chat to. He spoke of the Bok match and the change in attitude after Combrinck insertion. The discussion then went sideways and he mentioned quota. He said at no stage is person’s colour supposed to determine selection even in superrugby teams. He spoke of 93 CODESA discussions and how it was set out that schools must be made development institutions. Subsequently he says it’s been misinterpreted with politicians using this to gain votes in cycles like they doing something about inequality but nothing actually as it’s from wrong end. Extremely good conversation and enlightening. I could easily chat longer about things with him. Unfortunately we don’t have enough of his type around……

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  166. @odie15: He may have been softening you up to get your vote in August :mrgreen: Just kidding

    I’ll refrain from talking anything quota or transformation as I won’t be saying anything I haven’t said, and will bore the lights out of everyone. I have read with interest some comments, and made some interesting observations. I still need a bigger sample of comments before I release my research :-D . A lot of those inconsistencies you will find in Grassy’s friend’s facebook piece which he posted on 205. We have a very long way to go in this country.

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  167. @odie15: Like I said before the only way you “transform” the country is through good teachers and coaching at school level. Anybody with half a brain will realize quota’s won’t improve anything. It will change the make-up of the team but like Hanson alson noticed it will never improve the standard of the players. Any system that don’t improve the quality of rugby at “grassroots” level is counter productive and will never improve our rugby. Why are South Africans so arrogant? We think we can select teams not on merit and then still beat the best in the world? It is hard enough to beat these guys with your best players and coaches. Viva Lekota viva. Just wish more people will realize this.

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  168. @odie15: Volgende jaar is Moerat en Ruben hopenlik weer saam hopenlik die keer in groen en goud. Daai twee was ongelooflik verlede jaar.

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  169. @Grasshopper: Are you for real on the comment about Moerat? I’m not convinced he will make it beyond u20 based on pure talent alone. RG and company were a class above to me. Maybe I’ve missed it, but I didn’t see him dominate against Grey or PR.

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  170. @Playa: Well I told him point blank I vote for the biggest opposition party which ever it is. Listening to him he made sense as he sounds quite the rugby man. I believe he’s son went to GC. He says he still goes to GC meetings. His belief is create a rugby culture from young. Then eventually it will mature to senior rugby.

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  171. @odie15: Its “Terror” and not Terra. And the name comes from his prowess on the soccer field and not his involvement in violent politics. He also served on the governing body- not sure if he still does.@McCulleys Workshop: Your biggest challenge today, is to talk sense. I recognize that in your case, it might be an abnormal expectation, but please persevere.If you have not overcome by the end of this month, claim back your school fees. I ,and Im sure a few others, could with confidence, confirm that the money spent on your private tuition, was a complete waste of money.

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  172. @odie15: If “Terra” means what he’s says, why doesn’t he stand up in Parliament and speak like that to the masses. It’s all propaganda BS. Our country is burning, businesses are been looted our rugby team the Bokke are losing. The end is here.

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  173. @Bush: You must be wrong. The “Chairperson” of the SABC says that everything in Pretoria is calm and peaceful- no riots. He also says that people should stop using the social media for their information and its only the SABC which is reliable. Yeh, and my grandfather is Pope Benedict VI !!! And in my stupidity, I thought that the smoke hanging over Pretoria, is from celebratery braaivleis fires, after winning the U 20 WC ?

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  174. @Playa: I do have “informants” on matters other than rugby, even as Im sitting here in Albufeira-staring at the Med and reading, yet again, Allan Patons, “Cry My beloved Country”. @BoishaaiPa: Before making another misplaced comment, I would suggest that you go and read your little play mates earlier comment, which led to my reply.

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  175. @BOG: Mentioning you as FB friend of Grassy?..You deem that to be appropriate to justify your reply?. You keep insulting people about their level of intelligence and lack of education etc etc, yet you see absolutely nothing wrong with it because they provoked it in some way?..Pot, kettle, black…work it out!

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  176. @BOG: Maybe we should get together as I am in Lyon for the Portugal game tonight,

    Are we out of the u-20 tournament???? Was in Paris on Sunday for the Montpellier vs Toulon game so also a bit out of touch

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  177. @Playa: Ok I’m back, what did I miss? Oh my education!
    Bog, I’ve said it before, they should have won, the ref was a cheat, your unbeaten record is actually still intact and everything was better under the old regime. Hope you feel better again for a few days.

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  178. @BoishaaiPa: Using the word “gob” was not a typo error- it was deliberate and not the first time. If I refer to you as DooishaaiPa, more than once, you have reason to complain but as you know me, I would never stoop that low.@McCulleys Workshop: Do you want me to send that confirmation/support for your school fee refund application, direct to the school, or via you?@Andre T: Never thought that I would lean towards soccer, but given the state of rugby in SA , I dont have much of an option. Portugal would be my natural choice, given my connection with the Porras. I could even shout a few slogans in Portugues. Come to think of it, where is that prego chomping, hair -in-the-armpits, moustache wearing (ex) mother-in-law of yours? Does she not qualify you as a supporter? Otherwise, Ill have to support Jake Whites side with 13 SAs in it.

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  179. @BOG: BOG, if you get that right regarding the refund. Please I’m next on the list. I love Porra Piri Piri chicken but without the hairy mama.

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  180. @Bush: Unfortunately, no refund for you. Unlike some other, it would appear that the “shortcomings”, was not due to the school.I can help with the Chicken piri piri, but you will have to ask AT about the availability of his mother-in-law. Otherwise, if you like Porra cuisine as much as I do- and I have the body as proof, get the recipe book of Mimi Jardim, “Portuguese Cooking in SA” (something to that effect) But make sure you join a gym first.

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  181. @BOG: You can refer to me as you like because I don’t get offended by pettiness or swearwords. What does offend me is people trying to project an image of innocence but in the meantime are the worst offenders when it comes to insulting people using insinuations and vague references…it is the same thing as insulting someone directly by calling him a swearword. Rather get off that high horse before you topple off!

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  182. @BOG: I don’t suppose saying a grown man has a ‘little play mate’ in another grown man is insulting? You underestimate how low you can stoop, Oom.

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  183. @BOG: I am by no means a psychologist, but I do detect a shift in your persona, approach and attitude. Something smells FISHY!
    Arguments remain the same, but the vigour is a bit disturbing.

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  184. interesting article see link http://www.biznews.com/rugby/2016/06/23/myburgh-to-sa-sport-ditch-cadre-deployment/
    Germany shows winning means ditching cadre deployment

    My suggestions will be for centre’s of sports countrywide to be set up, funded by lotto / big business to enable those talented youngsters not fortunate enough to attend a model c school, to also be identified and receive proper training and support, even for less talented individuals to be exposed to the wonderful benefits of exercise. Unfortunately the township schools with the teacher union Sadtu in control and inadequate facilities should be the logical place to start offering sport in the afternoons, but this will not change for a long time.
    In an ideal world this should be an initiative driven by government/sporting associations !

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  185. @Monte Bello 84: I agree with special effort required. BUT What in the blazes have happened with a bit of initiative and hard work to get things set up and done? Where are all the PREVIOUSLY DISADVANTAGED champions to set these things up and put a bit of energy into the way they see the future. We unfortunately have a culture of; “I DEMAND” rather than “WHAT CAN I DO”. All countries that prosper and have grown from meagre means have the second approach. Yes. there must also be sharing from those that have. @Playa have provided examples of some good work in the “Cape flats”. Why do we not have more of that?
    It really irks me that political intervention is driving a culture of “you owe me”, followed by further division.
    The present government will NOT be able to do anything! Their culture is to showpiece rather than meaningful change.
    If you want something done – get off your arse and do it! (not meant personally to you).

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  186. @BrotherBear: It is interesting to see the increase in the intensity and intransigence of his stance since two events 1. the quota debate and the ultimate demise of SA, where head up arse was his key phrase 2. The loss by CG to Boishaai and his ensuing insinuations about the reffing decisions etc. and the strong response from the Boishaai supporters amongst others.

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  187. @Monte Bello 84: Where your suggestion makes sense is by creating a select number of sports excellence facilities for talented PD sports persons, and not trying to spread an already minimal budget through the entire school system, where the contribution would be meaningless. In that way business could see direct results from their contributions and assist with the governance, but again this becomes a private sector initiative. This is possibly a great initiative for a ministry of sport/Rugby legends collaboration.

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  188. @Vleis: Absolutely. I will looks for a schoolboy rugby game to watch on a Saturday, even drive an hour there and an hour back, but I generally couldn’t be arsed to make my way to the Shark Tank to watch pro rugby. I seldom even tune in, formula rugby.

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  189. @Vleis: I agree fully with them. South African school boy rugby is not as well coached as New Zealand or Australian school boy rugby. In most first teams, if we have an injury to a key player, it will cause disaster to the team. In New Zealand, they quite easily slot in a replacement.
    Each player in New Zealand understands the role and the requirements of the role to be successful.
    We have adequate coaching at school boy level but not top class, make a difference coaching.

    We focus on the individual and not the role. It is easier to acquire players than to coach players (this is a pervasive mentality in our school boy rugby).

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  190. @Vleis: What is redeeming about the article is that a number of the authors are involved in SBR so you would expect them to have a reasonable view. That being said, the side Miller has been involved with has being trying to play BB’s rugby this year. I think the most relevant point they make is creating the correct skills and coaching structures from junior level, and as debated here, many schools have great coaching at 1st team level, but certainly not down the line. I think Bush has debated the fact that the best coaching is needed at u 14 level.

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  191. Maklik die swakste junior protea groep wat ooit iets groens oor hul koppe getrek het!
    Max 3-4 wat dit verdien!
    Ten minste 2 skole in Bloem wie se voorspelers kringe om hierdie groep se voories sal hardloop.
    Skande!
    Elke o20 speler in SA tans wat nie gekies is en verlede jaar o19 CurrieCup gespeel het kan ingedoen voel, elke liewe een!!!!!
    @odie15, nugter alleen weet hoe die POT hier aangewys is!
    All Blacks het ten minste 3 wat skree vir POT erkenning.
    Iets moerse groot is fout!

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  192. Interestingly Dawie Theron after the match reportedly stated: “This young team has a lot of talent, but they need to complement that with the right decisions at the right time on the field”.

    Anyone on this blog could have told him that. The schoolboys were simply out of their depth. Hopefully the new coach will not make the same mistake next year.

    I feel deeply sorry for the boys. They did not pick themselves and now they carry the blame. The Coach and Convener of Selectors signed off the team and they should take full responsibility.

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  193. @odie15: I have no idea.But clearly he’s weaknesses are not greater than his strengths as some would like to believe. :mrgreen:

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  194. Sorry Dawie jy as afrigter het die spelers gefaal my ou maat. Jy het hulle gekies en lankal geweet wat die sterk en swak punte van hulle was sedert laasjaar. Ek dink jou kop was al lankal in Japan voor die toernooi begin het.

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  195. @odie15: He mesmerises people with his step and eye for a gap on attack but is not often seen in the battle line of defence. Perhaps attack counts more when it comes to awards. Perhaps Naas Botha would also have won the POT for his boot rather than his defence had he played junior world cup in his day. :mrgreen:

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  196. @Playa: @kosie: he would be the last player on my list of purchases…in too many matches has he gone missing or just been an usher to the goaline. It isnt a weakness its a huge flaw in his makeup. It shows in the matches they lose. Its not by a few points its by many as the team cannot cover that space all 80 min. Naas Botha had an awesome loose trio that covered a lot of ground. But in this era everyone has to commit to defence. He only can play in teams that have the upper hand up front. The reality is from now on everyone knows he’s a barn door. If the rugby public at large are blind to this then really a 3 match losing team player getting POT while unbeaten team is out there winning tournament? I would be really peeved if I was an English player and the hype of somebody overrides my results on the field.

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  197. That as just plain ugly and unacceptable for a country with our depth of talent! Hopefully no bonuses paid out to Oom Dawie and co. I would love to see an SA Schools side take on that side, might be even more embarrassing for them.

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  198. @McCulleys Workshop: pack is struggling to dominate though….too much time defending and not winning ball. But the scrum as Die Rooi Gevaar came on was impressive……Our ball carrying isnt that fantastic or the protection of ball.

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  199. @odie15: I’m sure Team of the Tournament would suit the English just fine.The beauty of team sports is that you can have an excellent individual in a non-performing team while you can also have a group of average individuals who work very well as a unit.Whether Curwin deserves it or not can be debated by the roll of alternative names.So throw your alternative and let the debate begin

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  200. @Playa: come now he didnt perform other than a couple of long range kicks at posts and that 1 try against France once they realised the semi was non realistic!

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  201. @McCulleys Workshop: @odie15: WW proving some sceptics wrong.I’m one of them.
    Odie an example of what I mean in my previous post is that I don’t agree with JP getting Man Of The Match.I though Faf deserved it. :mrgreen:

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  202. @odie15: I don’t think we were watching the same guy.Or rather I think we focussed on different aspects of his game when watching it.I may have been more positive and you were rather focussing on the negative.I am not at all saying he deserved the award.I admittedly didn’t see enough of other players to make that call-I also don’t believe he had an ‘brilliant’ tournament as an individual.He had two good games one of them was the WOW performance that earned him a Motm.

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  203. @Playa: yeah FAF deserved MOM……and no when you lose 3 matches due to very poor defence how is it possible to be nominated as POT. I agree he has moments of brilliance but it’s moments. I don’t see a few positives as a good thing only if you can play in front foot situation. I need that in difficult matches to overlook faults.

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  204. @McCulleys Workshop: Yeah, I think he had a solid game, nothing flashy but did his job. Combrinck certainly showing he has BMT. I think the team did alot better yesterday, especially of defence. But we are clueless on attack. Give it to de Allende and hope he smashes through, didn’t work. I think with Serfontein and Harold Vorster back, we have two really good centres. Also Frans Venter….only problem is they are the wrong demographics, all of them.

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  205. @odie15: Are you insinuating that the losses were solely due to his lack of defence?If that’s what you mean then I’ll accept what your reasons for him not deserving the award.Though I disagree as I think that he is not the sole reason for the poor defensive showing in those games.

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  206. @Grasshopper: Combrinck had BMT at school, playing the same year as Lambie. I think his Dad is head of rugby at House, ex bulls flank and no nonsense guy. I still can’t fathom how we can’t structure back line play without have a loose forward standing in the Centre channel to bash it up or the back line lying flat relying on de Allende to bang it up. Even the Irish play with dummy runners lying flat and a deeper back line running at pace and angles creating opportunities and space. In fact both the Irish and Enland U20 sides structure their back line play better than the Boks do.

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  207. @Playa: no the teams total lack of commitment and accuracy. As a whole they were poor. A early picture was there struggle with a Japanese. Lineout work was insignificant I didn’t believe once that they even knew they had a 50/50 chance at winning own lineout. Don’t believe the 2 hookers we took to tournament were good enough. I simply cannot justify POT on performance in 2 matches. It was like they had a commentary sheet from day 1 with Capital letters saying BOSCHE. I have no doubt he can play rugby. I have no doubt he has skills. But I have watched about 6 of his matches in high pressure situations where you see him physically remove himself from the battle. Be it survival or if you don’t see me I can’t be tarnished as we lost due to the team effort. If he wants to be a star in future he needs to step up in all situations.

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  208. No coach, nowhere in the world, irrespective of what sport, can be held accountable for a teams performance, if he/she alone, did not have final say over team selection, with total disregard to a political agenda. How difficult is that to understand? Even the Porras lying on the beach here in Albufeira, understand that.

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  209. @Buffel: Famous last words.” We have the size and the talent to make hay” Agree – against Japan and weaker teams. Well , sorry tale

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  210. @BOG: Now the Poms and Irish think they have a chance to win the next WC. We put out kak like that it gives them the psychological belief that what we put out is the best we have and we all know that isn’t the case..

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  211. @Grasshopper: Now that Britain is yet again Great, and regained their independence from the lazy, non-elected, unaccountable, overpaid, incompetent socialists in Brussels, there will be a new pride. And under Eddie Jones, a shrewd tactician, you never know. Lets see what we do against the Wallabies. And you can say what you want about the Poms and Mud Island- technologically, they are a few miles ahead of us. From arriving at the entrance of the polling station, voting and walking out the exit (quite significant), took less than a minute. Nine hours later, 50 million votes counted and results made public.

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  212. @Ploegskaar…..I saw that video clip on your twitter account showing Bosch last year in the CW final against WP….. :lol: :mrgreen: :-P like I said time and time again he doesn’t have B.A.L.L.S & HEART…the way he ran away from making a tackle on a forward was priceless….

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  213. @odie15: :mrgreen: :lol: :-P touché…like I said Bulls/WP may have dodged a bullet by not signing him….I’d understand if he got bounced by a player and stood his ground….the lad is scared to death of getting hurt unbelievable……

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  214. @Muzi: didn’t Sharks pay some serious penalty fee for his signature from Bulls?

    Have you seen the clip of Brits scoring on ploegies twitter account? I see CB defence in there too. If not mistaken it’s him slipping. Clip is a bit blurred….But I think it’s Cornel Smit creating the space and passing to Brits. I think Smit is best inside center I have seen in a while. Can you confirm ploegie?

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  215. @odie15@odie15: he wasn’t cheap….
    It was against the Baby Boks….those WP Under 19 backs are FIRE!!!!!…..I saw that try….in 2017 the junior boks back line should be 9.Papier/Jondre 10.Chait 12.Smit 13.Brits 14.Nico Leonard…….15.Bosch- hopfully by then he would have sorted out his “D”……11?!?!Gans/Troy Payne?!?!

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  216. @Muzi.Replace Chait with Damian Willemse then it is a super back line. I am so excited that the Dawie Theron battering Bulls centers in the Junior Boks teams are gone now.

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  217. @Scrum5: @Muzi: Now that’s WPCW 2015 backs! Add Manny Ras to that as well…..And Nico Leonard. You can’t teach attitude on defence it’s in your heart.

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  218. @Playa: Goes to show the benefits of exit. Ironically, Iceland is the only other country to have left that unholy alliance, the EU, and it has already paid dividends-even on the soccer field. And the two, are certainly not the last. I see that there are strong movements with a groundswell of support in every other member state, who wants to follow out— France, Netherlands, Sweden, Hungary, Poland. Even in Deutchland, with Mrs Hitler in charge.

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  219. You read it “somewhere” ? No, you read it in the international lefts mouthpiece in SA, Nies 24. Otherwise in the the Independent, The Mirror or Guardian, all outlets of Labour in the UK. Be careful that I dont give you a breakdown of those who voted to stay. Its not quite the opposite of what you tried to describe.They pretty much cover the whole spectrum of British society, and the elderly who voted exit, were predominantly Labour- not conservative. And of course, people who are not too well informed about British politics, would fall for the demonizing of those who “dared” to express themselves democratically, and rejected their little socialist scheme for Europe. Ask if you need more information- Comrade.

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  220. @BOG: What happened to the scum Soros, he didn’t manage to manipulate the currency again for his own capitalistic gain?

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  221. @BOG: Intersting that you have a positive outlook even though the pound has stumbled to 30 year lows following the exit.You usually link currency depreciation to a doom.To each their own.No your head is not in the same for thinking positively despite the short term economic effects.Oh and that they lost to a country with a population of less than professional soccer players :mrgreen: Can’t imagine what you’d be saying if this was happening to SA

    @BoishaaiPa: @BOG: Bog is being technical.Labour predominantly votes out….and labour is predominantly the type of people you mention.I stand corrected they are the same group that voted to keep the pound when the euro was introduced.Not might know this better than I.What will this mean for the Scots?They were sold the EU story when their referendum to either stay with the UK or exit was in motion.They therefore overwhelmingly voted for Britain to stay in the EU.

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  222. @Playa: Lol – I like your head positioning! We are meant to stick our heads up our arse when there is doom (30 year currency low and $4 trill wiped off global markets) and we are in denial and think all is peachy! Now what.

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  223. @Playa: The fall of the pound was expected, but that will be corrected as soon of the flow of pounds to the greedy socialists in Brussels stop. Even one of the largest banks in Germany, predicts strong growth for Britain. And no country will decline the opportunity to trade with her. Even Hussain Obama is cuddling up tp to her. Labour, is conservative? Hahaha . Since when? And of course our friend Soros is involved. How dare the British voters exercise their democratic right and demand back their freedom? Labour are mostly socialists, but is “homy to Maoists, Trotkyites and any variation of communism that you can think of. Certainly not conservative. And it was the Conservative (Tories) who voted to retain the pound And in Netherlands they want to Nexit, in France, Frexit, in Sweden, Swexit—

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  224. “Roy Hodgson says he takes full responsibility for England’s exit after a loss to Iceland & that the result has caused damage to the team”. Step up and own up. Respect, if nothing else.

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  225. @BOG: I have a strong suspicion that BREXIT is the work of those “who illuminate what they want the commoner to see”, and profit from the ensuing chaos. It is the beauty of manipulated democracy – the world we live in? Hehehe. Unfortunately mankind is too poorly developed to manage and benefit from a socialist setup. So, let us prosper through greed and mayhem. Eish – rather the chaos I can see (in Africa) than the subterranean smoldering ces-pool (Europe).
    Are you enlightened?

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  226. @spot: Ou JZ could learn a thing or two from that

    @BOG: Thanks for clearing that up.I had it mixed up.Labour…the equivalent of SACP voted out.Go figure.
    I’m still intrigued by this optimism you have.I guess I shouldn’t be surprised since you only take views from people who agree with yours.There is another,less optimistic view on the detrimental effects in the long term.But i wont waste mu breath

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  227. @BrotherBear: If I get to deep into that, I can already hear, “Conspiracy Theories !!”, notwithstanding the fact that I could back what I say, with names,dates, quotes and references. The problem with your view, is that in Africa, you see a lot of chaos and corruption, but that does not mean that you see ALL of it or that which you do not see,is any less than in the first world. In Africa, you are even more deceived than elsewhere, and as its history has shown, it is realized too late. There are literally dozens of examples on the continent.@Playa: I think that you are overlooking my strong links with Britain. I lived there for an extended period of time, I worked there in a political environment, my family is partly British, my son was born there, began his education there and now lives there- as a subject of HRH. It does not make me all-knowing, but it does give me perspective. Fact is that there was bi-partisan support for both Brexit and “Remain”.To demonize or to generalize either side, smacks of deliberate mischief and ignorance of the truth. And of course, London is also where I, as a young starry eyed liberal, shed my liberal political fantasies-ironically.@spot: Despite what we say about the Poms, there are many things that we could learn from them, accountability being one. Fact of the matter, is that a coach, irrespective of what sport, can only be held accountable for a teams performance if he/she had the final say, without political interference or dictates, in the composition of that team. This is a universal principle, but how long do you think it will take them to learn that in SA?

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  228. Sorry, “too deep” not “to deep”@Playa: If you are interested, the stock market is already recovering. And there is a nervousness in Brussels. Britain contributed no less that 15% to the EUs inflated, support-the- lazy bureaucrats, budget. Listen to Nigel Farage s speech to the European “parliament”, “27 years ago, you laughed at me. You are not laughing now” ! That should give you some insight

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  229. @BOG: Ek stem oor baie dinge nie met jou saam nie, veral oor SA, maar hier stem ek saam. Ek het redelik lank in Brussel gewerk en gewoon. Die beste ding wat die VK kon doen was om hulself los te maak van die land van Tin-Tin en Walloniërs wat heeltyd bakhand staan vir ‘n nuwe La Belgique de papa. Die EU “regering” is ‘n kunsmatig geskepte konsep. Farage is bloot realisties en sê dit soos dit is. Engeland sal oor die langtermyn nie spyt wees nie. Hulle het inelkgeval nooit werklik ‘n aptyt gehad vir unifikasie, het die Eurozone vermy, en baie tax konvensies eenvoudig nie geteken nie.

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  230. @Deon: En as jy n bietjie dieper gaan kyk na die agtergronde van daardie onverkose, hoogs besoldigde burokrate, dan sal jy EERS met my saamstem.Britanje, is maar die eerste wie padgee. Die ander kyk eers die kat uit die boom, voordat hulle ook n besluit neem en uiteindelik gaan dit net n paar klein landjes wees wat oorbly om vir so lank as moontlik, voordele te kan trek. En hou in gedagte dat die veldtog/aanslag teen Brexit en EU propaganda en intimidasie, ongenaakbaar was. Dit maak die uitslag soveel te meer, merkwaardig. Wat SA betref, sal ons binne die volgende 2 jaar weet wie van ons reg, of verkeerd is. Ek glo die kredietafgradering in Desember, sal die waterskeiding wees.

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  231. @BOG: but any entity (body, rules, criteria) that is created requires “activity” and thus is an economic driver. Taking the EU away will leave a void. But then, change is what democracy and capitalism thrives on. All that will happen now is that more beaurocracy will be created in Britain and well intended money wasted. Only the “haves” will be better off. The EU will probably not tone down their beaurocracy and thus the member countries will pay more (relatively speaking). So divide for all just increases.
    Best option for us is thus to go off grid, be self sufficient and whinge about things that we have an issue with – sound familiar? Hehehehe

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  232. @BrotherBear: The EU “boat”, like many bloated socialist monstrosities,is full steam on its way to a waterfall. It will self destruct. Most of Britains beaurocracy is still in place and will require very little expansion. This is a blessing in disguise. The EU was duplication and waste on a massive scale. But Britain is going to be less generous to Africa, and they (Africa) will have to stick their cupped hands in their pockets and roll up their sleeves. Its “do or die” time for Africa

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  233. @BOG: so, don’t you think China will play a much bigger role in Africa and practically create economic slaves?
    More important question: will we have a Chinese SBR league setting up shop soon? We can also have an U20 “African Championship”. We are sure to do well, but nothing guaranteed.

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  234. @BOG: I wish there was a way Africa could be less generous to them as well.But as history has it,when they go through a tough time Africa suffers.Not because of the decrease in ‘handouts’ but because their desperation to keep afloat will make them more greedy and ruthless.Bullying tactics applied.Hopefully the looking protests and chaos from the working class that’s about to balloon will keep them busy enough.God Save the Queen

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  235. @Playa: hehehe
    Look, the queen values money more than GSTQ, so watch that space!

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  236. @BrotherBear: Yes, we already heard about the well known Chinese rugby coach, Win Won Soon. Perhaps SA can use him at U20 level. Earlier we spoke about deception and unseen things. I believe that the Chinese bubble could burst at any moment. Google Jesse Columbo and see what he says about China. There are other opinions too. In 2007, when the world went into recession, China embarked on a massive infrastructure investment drive- with borrowed money. Today, they are sitting with about 50 million empty apartments and some of the largest shopping centres in the world, with not a single tenant. Lets be honest, the world is in a terrible mess, largely due to debt. No one will escape unscathed, and some would say that there are only two options, neither pleasant- war or hyper inflation.

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  237. @BOG: Seems like BoishaaiPa was right.It’s the old uneducated folks afraid of losing their ‘benfits’ called handouts and grants in SA that voted out.Basically a situation where COSATU-SACP winning an election in SA.And no i didnt get this from Naspers.I’ve just been on a marathon of webinars hosted by some reputable people.Different views but one thing was clear…this was an entitlement vote win by a generation that’s on its way to 6 feet underground.

    On China.I have a theory.That is they have cooked all their numbers from growth to debt in the last 10 years.We all read about these empty infrastructure investments…but no one has verified them.Just as no one could verify where their 8% yoy growth was coming from.One lesson I’ve learned in investments is not to try and understand something you can’t make sense of.The Chinese are exactly that.Biggest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he doesn’t exist.

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  238. @Playa: Apart from your comment about a “generation on its way to 6 feet under the ground”, there is nothing else that you said, that makes sense. Im not sure if its an attempt on your part to cover up your blooper on the British Labour Party, but I have news for you. Each and every generation which is currently alive, is “on its way to 6 feet under the ground”. And dont make the mistake of assuming that its just older people who are dying. All ages die, especially in countries as violent as ours. As far as the “empty infrastructure investments” in China, are concerned, once you have exhausted all other possible sources, try Youtube- its there. Otherwise, for a more academic opinion, google Jesse Columbo. And just one last word on Brexit. Recently, when I mentioned the manipulation of markets, several here, wet their underwear. Brexit was only the catalyst for what we have since seen. Central banks (privately owned by the way) have been propping up markets ( Read: MANIPULATING) and there is a general consensus that prices were overvalued. Im not even trying to understand the chaos, and I would not dare to explain it, but one thing is certain- and here I agree with you, “Hier kom kak” And that I have seen. And we are all going to be affected by it. Enjoy the ride. Six feet below, might just be a more comfortable option.

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  239. @Playa: Or perhaps you are referring to the generation, who, at the age of 18-20 yrs, bore arms from 1939-1945. Regarded as the generation which sacrificed the most in the history of mankind. A generation, which saw most of their friends and comrades killed in the most brutal manner, next to them on the beaches of Normandy and elsewhere. A generation, which sacrificed education, to fight for freedom. Had it not been for that generation, we would not be having this discussion and the millions of young yobbos who had the privilege of voting in the referendum, would be in some labour camp somewhere right now. That generation?

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  240. @BOG: Yes of course you’re right we’re all going to die.But I think you get what I meant.Moving right along.

    I’m not sure I agree with your follow up post.I’m fact I don’t think you agree with it either because here in our country of birth,we are governed by a generation that arguably sacrificed the most anyone has in the history of this country and yet they make a lot of seriously bad and selfish decisions which young yobbos like me will have to live with.Your views on all such matters are well documented – im surprised you hold this stance where the Brits are concerned

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  241. @Playa: One of the funnier comments I read was..”The Leave Brits were so afraid of immigrants ruining their economy that they preempted them and did it themselves!”

    and another..”The current older generation voted for something the future younger generation don’t want!”…

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  242. @Playa: Anyone who is familiar with British society, and clearly, some here, are not,will know that it would be impossible for any one particular homogenous group- the one described by you and BHP, to have won the referendum. I as an opponent of “Remain”, could attempt to describe that group as “communist/socialist,lesbian/homosexual. pro-abortion, dole relying, lazy louts ++” but even that, would be dishonest. The results clearly show that there was bi-partisan support for both sides and no group could, on its own, have achieved either 48% or 52% support. With the run up to the referendum, the onslaught and propaganda of the EU, the left wing media, even the “moderates”-electronic and print, was relentless. Fearmongering, intimidation, and blatant lies and threats, was the order of the day. And despite all of that, tired of lies and a delusional vision of an European empire, the Brexit vote prevailed. And understandably,the left are angry, pissed off at the “audacity”of the British electorate to have rejected their political fantasy,and are now out to take revenge. Dialectic thinking will be brought down to bare. Now they are trying to “demonize”the Brexit group, and as we see even here,those who are ignorant about European politics, are susceptible to their propaganda. But if they do try and take revenge, it will backfire- right in their own back yard. Why do you think that the left leaning Dutch government, is refusing a referendum?They know very well what the outcome will be. And the French, the Swedes, Poles, Hungarians— Regarding your closing comment earlier regarding the devil, I am very familiar with him. I worked for him, but at 3 am, on 22 July, 1999, I changed sides. And like the EU is now with the British, so too, was he then, and still is- very pissed off with me. As far as sacrifice is concerned, perhaps the difference lies in support. In 1939, that generation, stood alone. The generation you refer to , had support from more than 7 million people from all over Africa, who chose to live in SA, although, at the time, they did say that they came here for jobs, housing,medical care,, schooling ect. Strange!

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  243. @BoishaaiPa: Just some very brief advice for you. It may just help you to be more discerning when it comes to political matters. An “immigrant” generally, is someone who arrives at a port of entry of a country, normally by aeroplane or ship, with documentation of that country, which will confirm their immigrant status. It is not someone who crawls through a fence, or who thinks that a R200 Rand note, is a good substitute for a visa. They are generally referred to as “illegals”. But if the trend in SA continues at the current tempo, you are statistically sure to meet some in the latter group, perhaps even after midnight, leaning over you in your bedroom, with a weapon in his hand.

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  244. @BOG: and I have some brief advice for you…It was a comment I quoted..Stop being so patronizing and think everyone else on here is stupid and uninformed. It would seem that you are the only enlightened one and for the love of me I cant understand why these big business channels have not interviewed you yet as you seem to have all the answers and knows more than half the world economists. These poor twats from well established financial and banking institutions are still very uncertain to predict what the outcome will entail..they should just ask you!

    Seems your 25 years in government has left an inedible mark…everyone that doesn’t agree with you is either a communist or socialist!.. You are of course correct with the shout from some other nations…These shouts mostly comes from the far-right politicians and movements..Far-Right Dutch firebrand Geert Wilders has called for a ‘Nexit’ vote in the Netherlands. In December, a month after the Paris attacks, France’s Front National recorded 27 percent of the vote in regional elections and now the FN’s leader, Marine Le Pen called Brexit ‘an extraordinary victory for democracy. Italy’s 5-Star movement has called for a referendum on retaining the euro.

    A study by the European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR), suggests far-right parties were looking to surf the wave of europhobia created by the Brexit vote.

    The ECFR report said the fear of Turkey joining the EU and the rise of Islamophobia were among the reasons why support for anti-immigrant and anti-EU parties was on the rise across the continent.The ECFR’s Mark Leonard said: ‘Many of these insurgent parties have views on foreign policy that are closer to President Putin than President Obama.

    The far-Right Danish People’s Party (DPP) has called for the country to hold a referendum of its own following the Brexit vote. Kristian Thulesen Dahls, the leader, has demanded reforms to the EU followed by a vote on membership.
    The DPP is not opposed to the EU on principle, but wants to limit the reach of the EU, preventing it from getting involved too closely with the affairs of member states.

    I can go on, but there seems to be a trend that mostly the far-right are in favor of exit and the more moderate and liberal voters are in favor of continuing, At this stage no one can say for certain which is the right decision economically..not even you!

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  245. @BoishaaiPa: My favorite comment from a Frenchman who said “they vote like they cook – it’s diabolical”. That being said, time will ultimatley unveil the severity/benefit of the decision.

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  246. @McCulleys Workshop: For an outsider like me I have yet to decide which option seems the better as there are both compelling cases for and against..Economists are also reluctant to commit themselves to doom or gloom…Yet our own Nostradamus is very much convinced it was the right thing to do..however, what you wish for and what will realize is often not the same.

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  247. @BoishaaiPa: If it was merely an opinion which you quoted and not one which you supported, you could have fooled me. And perhaps you should go back and read your own comment about “old men” associated with Brexit. You once said, referring to cricket, that we do not understand the “nuances” of 4/5 day cricket. However incorrect of you to come to that conclusion, I can reciprocate with the same, “you do not know or understand the nuances of European politics. And yet again, I have made it clear that I do not have all the answers. But of course, speaking from a perspective of a bankster,you would feel uncomfortable with Brexit. And to suggest that all the parties/movements in Europe which are seeking independence, are extreme right wing, is absurd. Perhaps you are led by old Leopoldt Scholtz in Die Burger? Or is it the Palestinian Times T/A Cape Times? Read wider. Right now, there is a backlash against the EU, with no less than 34 separate referendums planned. And the European Council on Foreign Relations, the European version of the CFR in America, a Soros funded front, is not exactly a trustworthy source of information. ((Old Scholla would of course, disagree) Thats why, they speak of “Islamophobia” Have you heard of any Christian, Bhuddist, Hindu organizations who blow themselves up in public places. Take a look at the terror incidents and see who they are associated with? And Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, Boko Haram. El Shabaab, Al Qeida, Taliban—? There is no “phobia” with them- just reality.

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  248. @BOG: Where would you put this ‘reality’ in comparison to all other atrocities that have occured on this earth ie communism,the holocaust,apartheid etc? Worse,not so bad,are they more ‘free’ than victims of those?Or worse off?Interested in your views in this.

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  249. @BOG: I read neither the Burger nor the Cape Times..I get my information from British based news sources and other well known news channels…you are assuming again that I live in isolation…I do know how to access the internet and get a variety of different viewpoints. Fancy That!

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  250. @BoishaaiPa: Surprized, because your long essay could well have been old Scholla speaking. The only time I get this urge to talk politics is when bloggers discuss rugby in SA in isolation as if rugby is played in a normal society, denying the realities. And sure, that pisses me off. Soon we will have CW, with more than half of the teams having to play with their shoe laces tied together. And? Most will be ignoring this.The urge also appears when some blogger here, think that their “brand” of talking crap, is intellectually, more advanced than that of others. I just add to that variety.@Playa: I have told you more than once where I stood on apartheid, but that does not mean that, in criticizing the system, one should exaggerate or add on for hype. So, to compare apartheid with communism and the holocaust, which had hundreds of millions of victims/casualties. is indeed an exaggeration. At some stage of my life, we embarked on a project, comparing apartheid SA- when it was at its height with the rest of the world. Most participants were very critical of the system (apartheid), but still found that the black people in SA, with ALL the negatives, were more free than more than half of the world at the time. Granted, it was a time that the world was saturated with military-, one-party dictatorships and under the yoke of communism. In fact they were more free than most of Africa, which explains the flow of traffic to SA. Am I defending or promoting apartheid? Certainly not-I could write a very long critical essay on the system. What I am saying, is that we lived, and still do, in a filthy world. Regarding the “realities” of Islam, only this. Apart from the countless verses in the Quran which encourages muslims to embark on jihad and violence against infidels- non believers, (I can give you the quotes) let us see what they themselves say.According to the consensus of eminent Jurists of Islam, the world is divided into two parts- Dar el Harb, the House of War; and Dar el islam. In other words, no middle ground. You either submit to the teachings of Islam and its “prophet” or you are at war with it, ie a legitimate target. And their victims/casualties , bare testimony to this- 51 +million Christians, 80 million Hindus, 10 million Buddhists, 120-125 million African people of different cultures. religions—

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  251. Having come back from the Junior World Cup , I have had time to digest the whole thing. IMHO we took a side that was far too young and inexperienced to a tournament where the opposition players have been playing at a very good level, in some cases Premiership etc. 1 year makes a huge difference at this level and a hard u19 CC season under the belt would have done this team a world of good but we were blown off the park against England and were well beaten by the Argies. You cannot take a predominantly u19 side to the biggest tournament at junior level and expect to win. There are a number of cases that we can discuss but some glaring. Tinus de Beer, Tristan Tedder and Michael Brink are just 3. Then you have James Venter as a fetcher and carrier. He has the balls and strength plus ability to make it very difficult for the opposition. I could carry on but the side should have been selected from the u19 CC of last year. This was Dawie’s last year and I think they missed a trick. From my personal view, the French club jumped the gun and announced that James Hall was joining them at the end of July for the 2016/17 season and this coincided with him being left on the bench for the last 3 games . The facts were not told correctly and that he would return to South Africa in early 2017 to continue with the Southern Kings in the SR compo. I will leave that for you all to ponder . Au Revoir !

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  252. @Buffel: Jip – the hind side is always ? ” I refer to one of your comments in an earlier posts – ” We have the size and the talent to make hay ” We could name 30 more players who could have strengthen the team. Why would Dawie leave a player on the bench for miss information? Especially if he will be leaving the team. You are as good as your last performance and the players and Dawie will be remembered for that reason. They will have to proof on a new stage that they are not worthy of that tag.

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  253. @Buffel: Cant agree with you more on your post.

    Our youngsters were just not experienced enough to have a impact to win the tournament. Then again if you look at the All Black squad with a number of guys that has Super Rugby experience they also did not perform well.

    So even though experience does add its not the all in the end.

    We played silly stupid rugby sometimes and that comes back to the coaching side of affairs.

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  254. @Rugbymal: The All Blacks had 1.5 bad games and that cost them. If they had played England in the semis I would say it would have been one hell of a game. I watched them live on 2 occasions and they were just awesome.

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  255. @Buffel: I alluded to something along those lines in a post a week or so ago.There will always be a special player or two that makes it straight out of high school,but the bill must have u19 CC under their belt.

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  256. @Playa: It comes down to the physicality of the boys. 1 year and an extremely hard competition will give them that metal . I just take James Venter as an example. He is tough as teak and doesn’t know what it means to take a step backwards. Its not in his make-up.
    Then there is SF from the EP Kings who is in the same mould. The list goes on. A wise head at flyhalf in Tinus de Beer who controls a game with his boot and is solid in defence. Lusanda Badiyana was the standout lock in 2015 yet was not the tallest around but if things got tough, he was the man to get stuck in. I just hope that next year they take an experienced group along that can match the rest with skill and brawn.
    It was said that Dawie was blooding the youngsters for 2017 but that seems ludicrous with it being his last year in charge. He wanted to go out with a bang rather than a whimper.

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