Baby Bok South Africa u20 – final squad 2016

1 PR NJ Oosthuizen u20 EP : 1 of 6 Marlow : 1 of 1
2 PR Jaco Holtzhausen u20 BB : 1 of 9 Monument : 1 of 1
3 PR Carlo Sadie u19 WP : 1 of 7 Bellville : 1 of 1
4 PR Franco van den Berg u20 BB : 2 of 9 Randburg : 1 of 1
5 PR Kwenzo Blose u20 FS : 1 of 2 Glenwood : 1 of 1
6 HK Jan-Henning Campher u20 BB : 3 of 9 Garsfontein : 1 of 3
7 HK Tango Balekile u20 EP : 2 of 6 Selborne : 1 of 1
8 LK Ruben de Villiers u19 WP : 2 of 7 HJS Paarl BH : 1 of 1
9 LK Eduard Zandberg u20 WP : 3 of 7 Outeniqua : 1 of 2
10 LK Eli Snyman u20 BB : 4 of 9 St John’s (Harare) : 1 of 1
11 LK Cobus Wiese u19 WP : 4 of 7 Upington : 1 of 1
12 FL Zain Davids u20 WP : 5 of 7 Rondebosch : 1 of 1
13 FL Ernst van Rhyn u19 WP : 6 of 7 Paarl Gim : 1 of 1
14 No8 Denzel Hill u20 GL : 1 of 2 Jeppe : 1 of 2
15 No8 Junior Pokomela u20 EP : 3 of 6 Grey HS : 1 of 4
16 SH James Hall u20 EP : 4 of 6 Kearsney : 1 of 1
17 SH Marco Jansen van Vuren u20 GL : 2 of 2 Transvalia : 1 of 1
18 FH Manie Libbok u19 BB : 5 of 9 Outeniqua : 2 of 2
19 SH Embrose Papier u19 BB : 6 of 9 Garsfontein : 2 of 3
20 CT Franco Naude u20 BB : 7 of 9 Garsfontein : 3 of 3
21 CT Jeremy Ward u20 EP : 5 of 6 Grey HS : 2 of 4
22 CT Stedman Gans u19 BB : 8 of 9 Waterkloof : 1 of 1
23 CT JT Jackson u20 BB : 9 of 9 Oakdale : 1 of 1
24 WG Mosolwa Mafuma u19 FS : 2 of 2 St Benedict’s : 1 of 1
25 WG Sibusiso Nkosi u20 SH : 1 of 2 Jeppe : 2 of 2
26 WG Edwill van der Merwe u20 WP : 7 of 7 Paul Roos : 1 of 1
27 FB Curwin Bosch u19 SH : 2 of 2 Grey HS : 3 of 4
28 FB Keanu Vers u20 EP : 6 of 6 Grey HS : 4 of 4


  1. Well done to all the young men, especially to Glenwood OB Kwenzo Blose. I think he played 2nd team at school. Just shows how much post school development can happen. Looks a good starting 15, especially with Eduard Zandberg at lock. He was phenomenal at school.

  2. Where is ou Buffel? Fantastic news on his boy. Shoot for the stars young man. I think I will let him off all the beers he owes me :lol:

  3. @BOG: there are some glaring omissions for reasons we all know, but for me Papier, Bosch, Zandberg & Campher are all brilliant!

  4. Well done buffel – great to see the young man’s name up there. all the best for the tournament.

    Not often one sees a SA squad with no GCB names!

  5. My biggest concern is omission of guys like Keyter, Morne Joubert, Ignacios Prinsloo, Jaco Coetzee, Jaco Willemse, Arnold Gerber, Tinus de Beer & Barend Smit? I mean Keyter & Joubert were in another league, surely go even as utility backs. Tristan Tedder?

  6. Between the Top 3 boys’ schools in SA…….Grey Bloem, Affies and Paul Roos…..there is one representative….and if you add Paarl Boishaai, it’s 2

    I’m sure there are some worried parents out there

  7. James Venter & Kenny Van Niekerk, I know I’m biased but both are doing well at the Lions. Tristan Dixon?

  8. Chidoma, but he might not qualify due to being Zimbabwean. I know he has lived here a few years though

  9. @boerboel: Biased or honest and truthful? If you are prepared to bury your head in the sand or stick it somewhere else for the sake of political correctness, expedience and dishonesty, dont expect others with moral fibre, to do the same. As elsewhere, the proof will be in the pudding. Only last week, I read the profile of a young matric boy- a captain of one of the top school teams. He is not even hanging around- he is leaving for France directly after school. Im sure that there are many more and good for them. Perhaps this team was selected with the following criteria in mind:

  10. @BOG: I see that Zimbabwe, Nambia and RSA tri-nations happening sooner rather than later. By 2025 at the latest…

  11. I hoped that common sense would prevail in the end….based on what I’ve seen at CC level this year without a doubt Manie Libbok is a better player @10 than “the most expensive schoolboy in SA rugby history” Curwin Bosch. 8)

  12. Who is Oom Dawie?-I just find it amusing that an adult can act like this when his alma mater(a school) pupils or ex pupils are not selected for a national team

    signs of a sad lonely life …

  13. When and where is this tournament and in who’s group are we in?

    I see Italy u/18 beat England u/18 so we do not have to worry about the red necks

  14. @Grasshopper: Tedder is too skinny boet…. the guy needs to juice up big time…he’s been decent @10 for the Sharks this year in the CC though…word is that he’s leaving for a mega contract abroad.

  15. @Speartackle: I saw him miss a bucket load of one on one tackles for the KZN Impi during the Varsity Cup especially in the game against Wits….we can’t afford to have a flyhalf that doesn’t have heart on “D”….I ain’t saying his garbage we all know he can jol…now just take a back seat Oom and watch Libbok run the show @10. :wink:

  16. @boerboel: No, it goes far beyond pupils from my alma mater. It merely confirms that you do have your head up your arse .Signs of a smelly, dark and lonely life—

  17. @boerboel: I think you’ll find a few bloggers are irritated by exclusions, if you meaning me personally then you are the sad lonely troll just trying to stir. Mine were questions of exclusion not outrage of exclusion, big difference.

  18. @Muzi: Was that the only game you saw him in…………………and my question wasn’t on TV………Live?

  19. @Muzi: I have seen him, yep pretty small indeed. I do remember people saying Dillon Leyds was too skinny….

  20. @knowthegame: No, Muzi is the younger brother- and only fan, of that flank of the Bulls, famous for his 30 mtr sprint against the FS a few yrs ago.

  21. @BOG: We lost to Japan at the RWC…with a team with 4 POC, and a coaching staff with no pressure to pick ‘quotas’ whatsoever. Whats your point?

    Arrgh…this has actually gotten old now, seriously.

  22. Grasshoppper -no i was referring the gcb obsessed g/man-i agree we are not favourites to win this tournament

    he needs to accept the world does not evolve around grey-its a good school but nothing more

  23. @Speartackle: feel sorry for Rhyno Hebst. Officialy injured,but it must be the only player not good for selection due to a stabbing injury…..what a place…jaaaa boet

  24. Congrutulations to the boys who have been selected hard work and dedication does pay off. Special mention to the two Jeppe Boys selected for the worldcup team you chaps are absolute stars and deserve youR opportunities seize them. I remember being told how devastaed Nkosi was for not making the SA schools team in 2014 glad to see the young man kept at it and now gets a chance to dance on the big stage. Really think this team has all the attributes to do something special in England this June. Go Jurnior Bokke!!!!!!!

  25. @Grasshopper: I know Jaco Coetzee is out injured with a fractured lower back. Joubert was in and out of the camp quite a bit and Tinus got dropped early on.

    Just hope the backline gets room to do their damage because it’s electric. What they lack in size they certainly make up for in skill.

  26. @Playa: Of course there was interference with the WC team. And you are missing the point. Its not about how many of any colour- its about political interference- of ANY kind. As long as it is there, get use to the criticism, because it will get a lot older.@boerboel: You seem to conveniently read very selectively what I say- even where it was repeated slowly. How many times did I tell you that its not about a particular school- in a short space of time? Yet, you just continue with the same line. If you are struggling with basic comprehension, ask for help

  27. Wonder hukom da nie speler van di Vrede in die span is nie? Gehoor hle het soos altyd weer n bulspan! Let’s be honest there will always be dissapointment with selection of teams! I for one say let’s support the chosen! At the end of de day we all play to win but sometimes it is maybe more important on how you play the game especially when the great scorer comes to write against your name!! So good luck to the selected – go and make us proud!!????

  28. Hats off to Jeremy Ward for being named captain. I thought he was the most impressive centre at 2014 CW, but wasn’t selected for the SA Schools’ side – quite a surprise. Way to go boy!

  29. @BOG: good old Boggie – can always be relied upon to spew utter sh!t……….

    Good luck boys – go and win it so Bog can then print this thread off and use it to dry his eyes :mrgreen:

  30. Well done to our Glenwood boy! As far as transformation is concerned, I think we have arrived. No going back from here.
    Good luck to the boys!

  31. @Roger: I have to admit it was the first time ever a KES oke made me laugh out loud.

    I was actually hoping you’d tell him to wipe his backside with it

    @BOG: Sorry ou Bog…..maar dit was skreeusnaaks

  32. Congrats to Jeremy Ward! Well deserved. Good player with a level head. A great future awaits if he stays humble and focused.

    The squad seems a bit unbalanced. Too many in the squad without experience beyond schoolboy rugby, in comparison with the squads of AUS, NZ, ENG and even ARG. The backline will have to spark for this team to progress deep into the tournament. Nothing to be excited about in the front row and loosies. Last year the loosies were dynamite. There were complaints about the line outs after the last practice match, expect that to continue. To play running rugby, you need possession.

    Talk about merit, how can an average schoolboy player not touch a rugby ball for a year and then get selected for a Junior Bok team? What does that say about the state of the rugby structures in SA? And i agree with sentiments expressed above……the major schools cannot produce Junior Boks?

  33. @The Don: Gosh, fractured back sounds a bit career ending to me. I bit like JD Schickerling. Joubert is unlucky then, maybe next year.

  34. @Playa: Are you really suggesting that there was no political interference in the selection of the Springbok side over the last few years? You are probably the only one and perhaps old Roger@Roger: And your misguided intellectual opinion, spewed from the dark chalmbers of your inner being, accessible only via your arsehole? Pull out your head, give it a scrub and clout yourself. Just maybe, something will move or come loose.The article which I posted at 14 was obviously not just meant for the minister, but for you as well. Read it and get someone to explain it to you.@Speartackle: Jou sin van humor het, lyk my, n knock gevat. Miskien verduidelik die skielike erns.@spot: Dont ask valid truthful questions here. As you can see, it offends many here and touches their raw nerves in a dramatic way.

  35. Baie, baie geluk aan ons 3 garsies in die groep! Ons het n bulspan gehad in 2014 en eks trots op julle jan-henning, franco en natuurlik embrose!!! Well done manne!!!

  36. @BOG: Ek is eintlik so bly jy begin ook weer die pot roer…ek het genuine begin dink Pik Botha is besig om onder jou naam te post

  37. My only worry is that the squad lacks a quality 10 with the ability to boss his own and opposition back line, determine the pace and direction of play and most importantly, defend his channel. Theron missed a trick by not picking Jordan Chait in my opinion, full package with the right temperament and skill-set for the big occasion

  38. @Ploegskaar: I also said last year after CW that Chait, who I watched at AW, was the best 10.

    But Muzi says that Libbok will run the show from 10

  39. @Speartackle: Libbok is ‘n 15, Bosch ook. Libbok sal run, maar nie noodwendig die hele show nie. Dink 10 het ‘n veel groter skill-set as hol of pass nodig, en weereens, temperament en selfvertroue is die sleutel

  40. Congratulations to all chosen. Go do us all proud. We will all be routing for you guys.

    @Rugbyman: Daar word steeds met groot respek in ons huis verwys na die 2014 Garsie span en ook die manne wat die span gehaal het. Jy kan met reg trots wees en ek sal verstaan as jy ‘n traan wil weg pik. Dis iets om op trots te wees.

  41. I didn’t congratulate the young men who made it.Well done gents,and wish you all the success.

    Buffel you must be proud of your son Congratulations to you both.

  42. @spot: I beg to differ on your statement that the loosies not good (enough). Davids (fetcher and plays to the ball) and Van Rhyn excellent ball players and although Wiese is on lock, he is a deadly 7 or 8. These are players that can read a game and adapt quickly, as well.

  43. Well done and congratulations to everyone selected. 21 Different schools have representatives in the team and therefore there shouldn’t be any claims of selectors being biased. By the way Zain Davids is still under 19.
    Ek is veral trots op Carlü Sadie van Bellville. Dit wys IMO dat as jy goed genoeg is, jy bo kan uitkom, m.a.w vanuit ‘n nie-tradisionele rugbyskool.
    Geluk ook aan die kaptein en onder-kapteins. Ernst Van Rhyn is bo en behalwe ‘n puik speler ook ‘n uitstaande jong man. Sterkte aan die leiers en spelers.
    Ek weet nie of ander afrigters hier lees nie maar baie geluk aan julle en jul bydrae tot die spelers se ontwikkeling. Rugbyman….geluk meneer!!

  44. Baie geluk aan al die manne! Weet julle sal jul bes doen. Gaan maak ons trots!

  45. Baie geluk aan die spelers en hul afrigters op skolevlak. Ek is net bevrees dat SA vandag n hele paar spelers verloor het en ek voel jammer vir julle wat nie gekies is nie, daar is vele van julle wat in die span moes gewees het mmar die kies vd span is ongelukkig nie in ons hande nie. Ek dink dadelik aan 3 spelers wat tot vandag toe gewag het en wat alreeds redelike kontrakte het wat in aug die jaar verstryk mag julle oorsee se ondervinding en spel tot hoogtes gaan en maak naam en wie weet oor 3 jaar speel julle teen die bokke vir die res wat daaraan dink om oorsee te gaan om nie vir n sa span te speel nie gee dit jou as jong rugby speler weer n geleentheid om vir n ander land uit te draf. Net een waarskuwing die venster van geleenthede gaan stelsel matig toe gaan. Net voordat iemand op my kop wil spring dit is my opinie en nie gemik op kwotas nie die 3 waarvan ek praat wil ek net se dat 3 wit seuns in hul plekke gekies is en ja ek weet net 28 kan gekies word. Is dit die beste 28 my antwoord is NEE en volgens my gaan die span nie goed doen nie.

  46. Ek weet regtig nie waar ou T aan die neiging kom om te dink dat daar net 3 of 4 tradisionele rugbyskole is nie..inteendeel…omtrent 22 of 23 van die 28 kom uit welbekende rugbyskole…Skole soos Jeppe, Monnas, Grey PE , Outeniqua ens ens produseer al jare lank goeie rugbyspanne…Dis vir my goed dat daar so baie verskillende skole verteenwoordig is…inteendeel…ek sou bekommerd gewees het as die meerderheid spelers slegs uit 2 of 3 skole kom!…”New kids on the block” soos Garsies se spelers begin nou deurkom en dit is beloning vir harde werk agter die skerms. Julle sal oplet dat meerderheid van die skole was op een of ander stadium die laaste 2 jaar onder top 20 gerate…So dit is vanselfsprekend dat hulle spelers sal deurkom. Sommige spelers is ongelukkig om dit nie te maak nie en soos enige span wat al ooit gekies is, sal daar opinies wees oor wie moes gekies word en wie nie…maar soos Dok Craven gese het…die couch keurders het altyd die een voordeel dat hulle span nooit hoef te speel nie en sal altyd volgens hulle dus teoreties die beste span wees!..

    Geluk aan al die manne wat dit gemaak het…Doen net jou beste vir jou land en jou skool, dis al wat ondersteuners kan vra!

  47. @Playa: You are STILL missing my point. Its not the team of the day which played Japan- its the selection policies in place for the last ??? yrs. Do you realize that SA is one of the few countries which even has a minister of sport? Politicians should stay away from sport as far as possible. Even now, my gripe with this team, is not with these players, but the SELECTION policies. I feel as sorry for those who should have been in the team as I do for those who are, but undeservedly so. As in the past, they will simply disappear over the next 3 yrs and they are being misled.

  48. sad old man – you’ve had your day in the sun ou Bog – now ride off into the sunset and leave it to the next generation. They can do no worse than yours

  49. @Roger: If you do not have the moral courage to speak out against an injustice, do not expect others to follow your pathetic and cowardly example. Your surname is not Bacher by any chance? Get your head out of your arsehole, go for counselling and try and use it- if anything is recoverable.Otherwise, crawl back under your rock.

  50. @BOG: I kind of agree with you, politics and sport should never mix, it’s toxic. Next thing there will be quotas for swimming and they don’t pick Le Clos or Van den Berg. It’s a flippin insult to the PD players picked, having even an ounce of doubt they maybe there due to colour. They should believe they are there because they are the best. Time for quotas and BEEEBEEBEBEBEEBBEEE to be scraped. It’s a false economy of sorts.

  51. @Grasshopper: The irony is that under the old dispensation, I was called a communist and under the present one, an AWB. Of course, im neither.If one stands on a moral principle, it is wrong to deviate from that, no matter who is in government. You dont adjust your morality to suit the government of the day. As I pointed out to Playa, most First World countries do not even have ministers of sport and that is how it should be. If there is justification for the separation of state and religion, it is even more so with state and sport. MERIT should be the ONLY criteria. Thats not being naive- its being morally firm and consistent.

  52. @BOG: Agree with you 100 %. If some of these u 20 players were white they would never have been picked!

    Pick the best players!

  53. @BOG: Totally agree. I even think those countries that do not have a reverse engineering system in place should boycott playing us. They want to play our best not our best decided by the government who have absolutely no clue about that specific sport. I don’t care if the whole team is black as long as it’s our best one.

  54. @BOG: no normal sport in an abnormal society ou Bog – if you were regarded as a communist under the previous regime you would definitely remember that catchy slogan :wink:

  55. @Grasshopper: “I kind of agree with you, politics and sport should never mix, it’s toxic.”

    Fortunately this never happened pre-1994…..


  56. @akw: It’s happened in SA for over a century, not saying it’s any different now. But one can say enough is enough.

  57. @akw: We are post 1994 @Roger: And I can believe that you would see the current abortion, as “normal” !That at least,explains your previous “comments”. That article is certainly meant for you.

  58. @BOG: It’s really sad that politics create seperation amongst us South African’s. There will never be a day in South African sport that we all compete equally for positions. NEVER.
    One positive thing from the quota system, our ticket prices for Internationals will drop considerably.

    @Grasshopper-Swimming will become like athletics non-existent in KZN.

    I’m born South African, it makes me African. I love SA but our policies are killing the future for our kids and creating division. It’s what the government wants. They don’t whites to benefit from anything in this wonderful country of ours. We have had our time, it’s time for us to suffer. Viva South Africa Viva

  59. @Bush: I feel the same. I have a nearly 4 year old daughter and 1 year old son. For me I need to think long and hard about their opportunities in this country. They had no dealings in Apartheid and should never suffer because of it. Reverse apartheid will really affect them. It’s really sad as my daughters best friend is a little black girl who she adores. If whites are really unwanted the gov should give us a little subsidy to seek opportunities abroad, a kind of severance pay to get rid of the wrong doers..

  60. We need to start choosing more black players.

    This country is not built on Grey College.

    The *** is long out of favour.

    To be honest Grey College took long “dick” from Grey PE in 2014 so it is justifiable that the Grey PE boys of 2014 have the most reps.

    Tough luck Affies and Grey.

    Move on Bog.

  61. @Bush: You summed it up 100% correctly.@Grasshopper: Given my age, Im here for the duration and to irritate un principled characters, as demonstrated so well above. As you know, my one son is abroad, and my daughter is following. But as I pointed out yesterday, the rugby players, are now beginning to leave immediately after school. They are not even interested in hanging around for junior rugby. And we should not fool ourselves. The crowds at Super rugby has dwindled dramatically. While people like us are still enthusiastic about SBR, it represents just a small % universally. Look at the numbers attending CW (200-500 pd) and the numbers attending school matches (up to 20 000) The people are not blind and they are not interested in “political teams”

  62. @The Beast: What you should do, is read the comments. If you had, you will notice that it has nothing to do with GCB. And for the record, Grey High beat GCB LAST yr, the first time in many. So, using your illogical argument, it should only impact in 2017. But that is beyond the point

  63. @BOG: It was in 2014 that Grey High beat Grey Bloem.

    This is my Springbok starting XV:
    15. Kolbe,
    14. Senatla,
    13. Mapoe,
    12. DeJong,
    11. Mvovo,
    10. Jantjies,
    9. Paige,
    8. Carr,
    7. Notshe,
    6. Kolisi,
    5. Etzebeth,
    4. Du Toit,
    3. Malherbe,
    2. Maratulle,
    1. Beast

    Far more representative of our country, still looking for an Indian to maybe play in the front row.

  64. As a sports journalist, I follow this site because of the good natured school rugby banter, which I find to be very humourous and informative. There’s a lot a learn here and the many people who comment here know what they’re talking about. What I’ve found quite interesting and disappointing with these comments in this section is the culture of entitlement. The nature of sport is cyclical and to have a truly representative team, it needs to showcase all spheres of South African society. GCB is one of, if not the premier rugby school in the country since 1992 but other schools have found ways to catch up. If players are coming from far-flung areas of the country and representing South Africa, that’s the best thing that could have. If we’re honest with ourselves, there’s everything wrong with 80% of past and present Boks coming from 20 or so schools. That shows how little the game has grown outside of its traditional circle and that lack of societal transformation is one of the reasons why rugby lags behind in terms of player numbers and support when it comes to soccer. One also should understand the effects of aparheid will linger for decades, if not centuries because you can transform teams and other spheres through legislation, but minds can only be transformed at home. If a young player wants to leave for France, then let him be, there are many other players who are pining for that opportunity he will leave behind. In a country of 50-million-plus, we can find plenty of rugby players to cry for one who has made up his mind. New Zealand’s population is not even a 10th of ours yet they thrive despite an unending player exodus because rugby there has a hearts and minds approach which is also very inclusive. I’m not sure the same could be said of South Africa.

  65. @BOG: I understood you to point out the SA u19 cricket loss to Nam and Zim to be a sign of the downfall of SA sports – despite the fact that in 2014, under the same policy, the SA u19 side won the cricket WC. My response with regard to the Bok loss to Jap was to illustrate that a side that hasn’t been politically interfered with can actually lose to a minion side. Call it a bad day at the office, or just that the side on the day was weak. In 20 years since the introduction of quotas, there is no empirical evidence linking that to a decline in results. The doomsayers were around in 1996 putting time frames to SA sports decline, they’re still here today, and they’ll still be here in 20 years. To each their own.

  66. @Outside Looking in: But rugby does not lag behind soccer when it comes to results.

    I have lived in the Eastern Cape and Western Cape, where the rugby culture is very strong. But an aspiring black rugby player in Lusikisiki, Qunu or Matatiele will not be able to further his rugby career playing in those areas, and that is why they end up at Glenwood, Selborne or Dale.

    In Pta there is no rugby culture in places like Mamelodi or Shoshanguve. Even Eersterust Club is dying a slow death.

  67. @Playa: Doomsayers will always be around, I honestly couldn’t be bothered to argue/debate with them anymore. Ignorance is a choice, if one doesn’t want to see the situation for what it really is, that is their problem ?

  68. @akw: What does troll mean? Are you confused with that Jersey? Are you perhaps a Broederbonder?

    I am merely expressing my very well informed opinion.

    This country needs to transform quicker, simple as that and if you not happy with current or future selection policies, move to Orania.

    Well done on the Garsies boys making the team by the way and bad luck on the GCB boys not making it, so a bit bitter and a little sweet for you, I would say.

  69. @The Beast: “troll. One who posts a deliberately provocative message…”

    Paige gave it away…..

    As far as your comments about the Broederbond and Orania is concerned…”troll. One who posts a deliberately provocative message….”

  70. @akw: So there must be heaps on trollers on here then cos many of the statements made are provocative. Why do you wear two jerseys of two such different schools by the way? Not provoking you, just merely asking you a trolling question.

    @Grasshopper: Well done on Glenwood’s win at Sanix. Things are looking good in the Hood, again.

  71. @The Beast: why bring politics into everything. It was comments about schools not being represented not about anything els. if all 15 players are of colour and they win everyone will be happy and if they don’t then people will scream, colour or not.

    We are are a proud rugby natoin and we hate it to lose, at any level. So please keep the politics out of your comments.

  72. @Roger: I think its safe to say that you are probably the last person who I would seek for advice. I read that article, but when I got to the part where he mentions his “visionaries”, he lost all credibility. You should really read what people like Bruggemans, Heystek, Marc Faber, Jesse Columbo, RW Johnson, to mention a few, has to say. They could all contribute substantially to address your delusional opinions.@The Beast: Excellent. Would those players still be around in 2-3 yrs from now when SA participates in the 3 Nations- along with Zim and Namibia? Any idea where Andre T or Speartackle might be?@Outside Looking in: You are missing the point. It has nothing to do with certain schools, but all to do with selection criteria. And dont give me the apartheid song. I opposed it as a student, but people must not add distotions in an attempt to strengthen their argument. At least 7 million (black) people from all over the continent, came to live under apartheid, to actually IMPROVE their lives. It was VERY far from perfect, but what existed elsewhere in Africa, was even worse. And I experienced it personally.@Playa: As long as there is political interference of any sort, its immoral- period. And the doomsayers in 1996, were speculating. In 2016, its a proven fact. And if you cannot see the dramatic decline, well, then you need new glasses

  73. @The Beast: I am actually happiest for NJ, who played in the Marlow side with my sister’s son.

    Good scrummager and scored the try against a good Framesby side in 2013 that won the match for Marlow after being behind by about 20 points.

  74. @akw: That’s something I don’t disagree with. I’m an Eastern Caper and I know how the talent pathways work in the province and each township has it’s own sporting strength. The northern ones have always been football havens while the Cape ones have been the rugby and boxing breeding grounds.

    However, rugby and soccer results can’t be compared because of soccer’s continental and global reach. South African teams have to qualify for events because of the continental and international quality and quantity. I don’t begrudge that rugby and cricket have it easier but the beds are there and the respective sporting codes have to sleep in them.

    I’m of the opinion that if all of South Africa’s major sports can be developed outside of their traditional strongholds, you’d find that all of South Africa’s teams would be representative of the population demographics without the need for quotas. The freedom of choice that comes with being able to play the sport that you want is massive.

    I can under BOG’s frustration of his school not being represented at the U/20 WC’s but the nature of sport should be as such that other schools who have players who prosper have to have their efforts rewarded at some stage. If we’re also fair to each other, while GCB have hovered around the top five schools in the country in the past 6 years with strong teams, they haven’t produced the kind of head turning players like they did in the previous decade. The more minor schools that produced junior age group quality players, the better. That only helps to strengthen the various provincial age group teams and adds to the betterment of SA rugby.

  75. @Outside Looking in: Your statement saying that “if a young player wants to leave for france , let him leave as there will be plenty to fill that opportunity” …. you cant be serious , rugby like any other sport is made up of players whom have a combination of talent , genetics and hard work …. however , if you look at the 2007 RWC winning springbok team for example , if the team didn’t have John Smits leadership , Bakkies and Victors brilliance , Fourie dupreez genius , jacques fouries ability to finish , Habanas brilliance , Juan Smit < Schalk !! , Percys kicking and Whites loyalty and vision …would we have won ?? lets say half of that side had left our shores early in their carreers , would we have won ? who would have been the next Burger , Smit ,Os , Habana …. this side had 7/8 best players in the world in their positions … these players don't come off your assumed production line … they are rugby greats , not fill ins … they were the Usain Bolts , why would you assume that there are many players of equall ability roaming around SA …that's like saying lets get rid of Chad Leclos and change him for the next best ….the next best isn't as good , and the quality drops and drops again and again ….. in addition to the competition for places weakening , resulting in less pressure on the selected players ….. we are heading for mediocrity !!

  76. @Outside Looking in: “you’d find that all of South Africa’s teams would be representative of the population demographics without the need for quotas.”

    If this is the case why do you find a hugely disproportionate amount of black NFL and NBA players, whereas in the USA swimming teams and in the NHL black participants are VERY scarce?

  77. @BrotherBear: I am not doubting their talent at all. Its the lack of experience. The tournament requires players with experience who played the game higher than at schoolboy level. I would think the selectors would identify the squad from players who played u19 CC, U21 CC, Currie Cup, Varsity Cup and even Super Rugby. Not schoolboys. Unless the player has proven to be a prodigy at schoolboy level ala Handre Pollard.

    I think last year the approach was not to pick schoolboys, but u20’s only, because the lack of experience of playing the game at a higher level was detrimental to the previous campaigns. So its doing the same thing now expecting a different result.

  78. @akw: The US has different racial and sporting politics at play. South African soccer is a great example of how sport can transform without quotas. Bafana has capped more white players than the Proteas and Boks have PoC’s put together. Bafana has also had more white captains and white coaches than it’s counterparts have had black coaches and captains.

    You also need to understand the physical and athletic differences African Americans have as compared to their lighter-skinned compatriots. Because of their stronger physical genes, they have tended to thrive in the Basketball and Gridiron

  79. @BOG: completely agree with you on the decline of this sport we love so much…so who and what to blame.The player pool in this country due to a weak currency and political interference will eventualy make us ..yes us a very mediocre rugby playing country..but if that what you want,thats what you will get

  80. @oldschool: You’re missing the point. Here’s a question.. What guarantees do you have that the said kid who is leaving for France after matriculating will become a French international?

  81. @Outside Looking in: You keep on harping about specific schools, but if you take the time to actually read the comments, you will realize that its about the SELECTION criteria. Personally I dont care if all the players were black, pink or blue, and all came from Mdantsane Secondary, PROVIDING they got into the team on MERIT. And as those who dont deserve to be there, fall by the way side in the next 2-3 yrs, it will prove my point. As it consistently has, in the past.They are leaving the shores indeed, as they did in Zim and Namibia, and we all know what happened to rugby there. Do you mainly report on netball? @Ludz: I suppose you regard the weatherman, predicting a cold front, the economist a recession, or the doctor a terminal illness, all as “doomsdayers”?

  82. @knowthegame: Why do you think our game will get weaker and weaker?

    You cannot say that, we need to pick players and give them a run, everytime we pick a PD player he gets limited opportunity to settle into the team and seems always to be playing harder for his place than others.

    People need to get over this colour story, we have many players of colour who will never disgrace us if given the opportunity.

  83. @Outside Looking in: Yet again, you are missing the point. Going to France, there is hope and he knows that his colour will not be a handicap. Just his ability as a player. And that is what we all want. He just wants fairness- something which is absent in SA

  84. @The Beast: What is a “PD” player? If “previously disadvantaged”, then when exactly? If this occurred since 1994, and he was “disadvantaged”, based on colour, then he should immediately report it to the SACHR. But he should not expect favour in a national rugby team

  85. @Outside Looking in: Dude, let’s spell it our for you. BOG is NOT REFERRING TO GREY BLOEM IN PARTICULAR, he is referring to a principle. A principle applied in every other country in the world except SA, they pick their best teams full-stop. To think that only 4 or 5 players of the top rugby schools in SA contributed to this squad is madness. These schools are head and shoulders above any other. They have produced plenty of world class players. These players are going to leave our shores to win trophies with France, England, Italy etc. Look at these top 5 schools sides, they are not white only. Look at the Boishaai fullback who single-handedly beat Affies, is he white.

  86. @BOG: I have no issue with your disapproval of transformation. It is your democratic right. And we have failed to convince each other on our respective stances over the years, so I am not on that tip. What I have a problem is when people look for Koos on a team list, but see Mpho in his place, and jump to the conclusion that he was chosen to make up black numbers. Whilst the complainant has seen Koos play from birth but has never even heard of Mpho, never mind seeing him play. There is a fallacy in that because people think that because there exists a policy of transformation, therefore that means there are not many black players that are as good as their white counterparts – hence when a 28 man squad has 14 black players, you start looking for reasons as to how politics could have played a part in eliminating the white players that you know and think should be there.

    Superiority complex?Entitlement complex? @Outside Looking in: summarised it nicely with the incorporation of the whole school factor.

  87. The comments below from Naas Botha at the launch of the Beeld trophy should settle a number of arguments once and for all. Whether Affies is buying players, whether playing for a trophy is good or bad, etc.

    Talent in Suid-Afrikaanse rugby word al op skoolvlak gesmoor, meen die legendariese Bok-losskakel Naas Botha. “Is dit nie miskien tyd dat ons afrigters die kinders wat talent het, laat speel en die spelpatroon so ’n bietjie wegpak nie?” Botha was een van die gassprekers by die bekendstelling van die Virseker-Beeldtrofee gister op die Bronberg-landgoed net buite Pretoria.

    Hy het verwys na die wedstryd die naweek waarin Grey-kollege van Bloemfontein die Afrikaanse Hoër Seunskool van Pretoria met ¬53-29 geklop het. “Die gehalte van die rugby wat gespeel is en die vaardighede wat die spelers gewys het, is net ongelooflik.” Hy hoop “die beter rugby” sal vanjaar gespeel word. Botha het aangename herinneringe aan toe hy in die 1970’s as leerling aan die Hoërskool Hendrik Verwoerd deelgeneem het aan die Administrateurs-beker-kompetisie, soos die kompetisie toe geheet het.

    Om spelers te “koop” is nie ’n nuwe ding nie, het hy gesê. Die voormalige Bok-skrumskakel Dirk de Vos het hom genader het om Affies toe te kom. Botha se skopskoen was die grootste rede hoekom Hendrik Verwoerd Affies in 1975 uit die kompetisie geskakel het.

    Hy meen die klagte dat die wenmotief in kompetisierugby te groot is, is ongegrond. “Jy daag elke Saterdag op om iemand te klop, of jy aan ’n kompetisie deelneem of nie. As jy nie opdaag om iemand te klop nie, kan jy maar by die huis bly. Die kompetisie sou nie al so lank oorleef het as dit nie goed was nie.”

    Die trofee bestaan al sedert 1920 in verskillende gedaantes. Voorheen was dit bekend as die Beeld Noordvaal Trofee, Beeldtrofee, Administrateursbeker en die Direkteurstrofee. “Die manne in die Kaap . . . hou nie van kompetisies nie. En daar is niks fout daarmee nie, maar daar is ook niks daarmee fout om ’n kompetisie soos dié te hê nie,” sê hy. Botha meen dié kompetisie is die belangrikste op skoolvlak in Suid-Afrika.

  88. @BOG: Boet, you flogging a dead horse. Something I know quite a bit about on this blog. For some reason people can’t see that MERIT should be the only selection criteria. Like with academic bursaries, the ones with the best intellect should get them. ” Flies are buzzing about the corpse as we speak”….

  89. @Playa: That isn’t the case at all. An open gov policy to implement quota’s puts the doubt into people who look at the list. If the gov had no policy on this the avg man in the street wouldn’t care if it was Koos or Sipho as long as they are the best picked….

  90. @Djou: Ouboet..dis net in Pretoria en Noorde wat mense na Naas se kakpraatjies luister…As hy iets gesê het neem ek dit maar met m knippie sout :mrgreen: …vra die balju!

  91. @BOG: If rugby doomsayers behaved like economists, then they would be a predicting a positive rugby future, given that in the past selections were race based and political – leading to SA being a powerhouse. Unless the insinuation is that black is inferior where rugby is concerned, in which case the negative ‘predictions’ would be justified. Then again, we cannot prove that given equal opportunity and resources, blacks are actually inferior.

    As doctors – the doomsayers would provide a list of symptoms. Again, point me to symptoms of decline. Two Tri-Nations trophies, and a World Cup – add to that 3 victories in one year against the AlL Blacks, under a black coach hardly spell a decline.

    As weathermen – we all know how reliable those guys are, don’t we :mrgreen:

  92. @BOG: This is how sad it has actually got. We know a lovely mixed race couple in our estate, White male and Indian female. We were walking our kids about on a lovely evening and she suddenly said, Í’m so glad my little Johnny has some colour in him, so many more opportunities will open up for him’. Just imagine myself and my wife, both white, thinking about our own kids future. I grew up at the end of apartheid, had nothing to do with it really. I caught a few green buses because they were cheaper, but other than that not part of this injustice. But now my kids are being affected by it….very sad indeed…

  93. @BOG: Let’s not be insulting in terms of our professions now and let’s deal with the matter at hand. Merit is a very loosely used word is South African sport and it’s very objective. What’s merit to you is different to everyone else. If you have issues with the selection criteria, get in touch with Dawie Theron and let him explain how he goes about picking his teams. I’m going to pull from Nomboniso Gasa’s numbering page now to break down my argument.

    1. Responding to your last comment, “fairness” doesn’t exist in South African sport and if a players feels he can get better playing opportunities elsewhere, then so be it. After all, the SA rugby system can only absorb so many players so when one departs, it opens up space for another to make the most of that gap. We’ve got plenty of props who can bridge that gap and thrive in the space that he’s open. You don’t see New Zealand crying over an untried player who leaves their shores. Despite the apparent pessimism, we generate enough players to fill voids in the event of a player leaving. That’s why I don’t understand why there’s an outcry when players choose to play elsewhere when there’s a talent pool to pick from.

    2. Selection in South African sports is subjected. Having spent time at a CW where Theron was watching, all the coaches said a specific flyhalf was the best of the tournament but Theron saw things differently and decided to pick a player he preferred. Despite the initial complaints three years ago, it’s turned out that he made the right decision after all and the said player he picked now plays Super Rugby. The player, a PoC, went to sevens and is carving a name for himself.

    3. Merit: Having covered rugby at various level, merit is a difficult word to apply. I’ve come across coaches who’ve picked on how players speak the predominant team language ahead of how good players are. What’s merit to an afrikaans speaking coach who doesn’t have or take the time to watch township rugby will be different to an open-minded coach who has time to watch different types of rugby and is able to make inform decisions about players and the holistic packages they bring. I’ve come across plenty of white coaches who are open-minded and have an eye for talent regardless of the background and I know of many black coaches who still think white players are robotic and lack flair.

    4. Inclusivity: Since you said you’ve experience both sides of SA’s social spectrum, you’ll know fully well how PoC’s have more hurdles to climb outside of the game to get to the top. That already skews the fairness debate as what is fair to one player will not be fair to another player. Rugby always has a way of balancing things out and in any sport, the cream always rises to the top

  94. @Playa: Look at our record vs the All Blacks since readmission, if that isn’t a decline in standards I’m not too sure what is. Again, BEE, EE and quotas have played their role now for 20 years, let’s start on a clean slate and pick on merit only. How long are people expecting BEE & quotas are run before we have transformation? 50 years, 100 years? There has to be a point where enough is enough, especially when SA is supposed to be a free and democratic country. I certainly didn’t feel to free on Freedom day..

  95. @Grasshopper: You need to understand that SA sport, especially rugby and cricket, have a very loose understanding of what is the “best” team. For some, the best team is one that’s lily-white and for some, that’s all black. Unfortunately, that exists in all spheres of society and that’s been inbuilt through years of apartheid and that thinking will take centuries to undo.

    There are sectors of society who think our national teams in the respective age groups can only function at their best if they only reflect the respective colour groupings. If we look back, some of the best age group teams we’ve had in cricket, rugby and soccer have been the most racially diverse teams. Hark back to the age group teams coached by Peter de Villiers, Jake White and even Dawie Theron’s class of 2012 and those are examples of teams where the balance was achieved.

    One needs to understand that South Africa’s past will ALWAYS have an impact on how national teams are picked. Unfortunately, not everyone is a progressive thinker and sees players from what they bring from a playing perspective. Politics and sport have always been intertwined and will always be bedfellows.

  96. @BOG: that’s good – ‘cos if you were my client I would have fired you years ago!

    @knowthegame: Bog is an anachronism, a throw back – someone who refuses to listen to anyone’s view but his own. He should either circle his wagons or take to gap – either way, wherever he is in the world he will be unhappy!

  97. @Grasshopper: Therein lies the problem. Looking at schools before individual talent. That is what transformation should aim to address. There is no level playing ground if selection starts at looking at the ‘top 5 schools’, then the rest to make up numbers, is there? You are advocating fairness and merit picking and yet you hold that view. Unbelievable!

  98. @Outside Looking in: Well then watch the exodus of talent big time! Future talent too as I know plenty of parents looking overseas due to this policy….not just white may I add…Indian and Coloured too as they are not black enough.

  99. @Playa: What school did Bakkies Botha go to? Now don’t Google it? Where did Bryan Habana go to? I’m going somewhere with this, trust me. Success attracts success so naturally many of the best players drift to these academies no matter skin colour….trust me. Dale is considered to be one of these rugby academies too…

  100. @Grasshopper: Quotas were introduced in 1996. Go have a look at pre-96 results vs post-96, then come back to me.

    On rugby, and this side in particular. I am not here to convince you to embrace transformation. I would like you to present something comparative that would make you say Tedder, should be there before Bosch, or White A before Tango Balekile, or White B before Sibusiso Nkosi etc….and all of this based on your experience of both players in each position. Failure to do that is just emotional opinion, which I cannot debate with.

  101. @Playa: I’ll save you the search, Vereeninging THS, certainly not a well known rugby playing school. He rose out of the abyss due to talent. Bryan Habana attended a rugby school. My point here is that if you that good you will make it somehow. It’s only obvious for selectors to look at the best performing schools/provinces first as the majority of the talent has aggregated there. Also, these top schools and provinces are playing against the best and at the highest level all the time. It’s the responsibilty of the selectors to ensure the net is cast wide to ensure nothing is missed. But you see success breeds success and average players become good ones just by playing with the best. You’ll see at Craven Week level the coaches usually choose combinations and kids who have proved themselves at a certain level. There maybe an individual in the B league schools who might be better, but how do we know that when they playing weaker opposition. So as a player it’s key to ensure you do your best to attend the school that will expose you to the best, hence the move towards probably 30 to 40 rugby schools in SA. If you good at rugby then go to one of these schools or risk being lost in the system. No quotas applied, just betting clever. In most cases I reckon the Grey Bloem or Boishaai school team could beat the SA Schools team as they trying to be all inclusive. Pick the best, really simple…

  102. @Playa: What level is Tedder playing? What level is Bosch playing? I’m not saying Tedder is better, just saying Tedder based on the level he is playing should have been in the mix at least.

  103. @Grasshopper: My point is if you do not care what colour a person as long as they are good enough, you should naturally not care what school they come from either. It’s contradictory to believe one is ok, and not the other. The big, historical schools are a great breeding ground, but they are not the only ground.

    P.S. I would rather these scouts spent their Saturday afternoons at Ngqamakwe or New Brighton than CB Jennings.

  104. @Playa: Glenwood vs KZN Development this weekend;

    I can bet the best players in these sides will be at Glenwood next year. That is how the cream is rising to the top currently. I can list the number of PD boys who used to be in township schools, who were offered places at Glenwood and went on to play KZN Schools, many of them. The same happens at the other big rugby schools, probably Dale too.

  105. @Grasshopper: there were very few (if any) quotas in SA rugby for the first 10 or so years after readmission and we still got our pipes cleaned year after year by NZ (besides 1998). We were not too flash against Aus or Eng either. I will never forget Naas Botha’s lily white Springbok team getting thumped by Aus at Newlands in 1992. All the talk was how we were going to show the world that Aus were not the real WC champions because they had not played us – well – looks at the scoreboard! You should read Tim Horan and Davis Campese’s memoirs of that game, they were none too complimentary – the arrogance that existed in SA Rugby was astounding (unfortunately that is still the case).

    Well done Fikile Mmbalula – it was the wake up call SA Rugby needed

  106. @Roger: What happened in 1986 with the NZ Cavaliers who eventually made up most of the 1987 WC winning side?

  107. @Grasshopper: I think I mentioned this in last week’s discussion on this topic. Representation at schoolboy level is not a problem. The problem is post under 18.

    Just keep an eye on the story of Garth April that begins to unfold this weekend with Pat Lambie’s return from injury.

  108. Transformation encompasses a change of mindset, not just numbers on the field. Unfortunately that’s where South African society is failing.

  109. @Playa: To be fair Lambie is the incumbent and captain, he should always be picked ahead of a replacement if returning. They could maybe find room for both of them. April is great, but has he really proved himself yet. Lambie has proven himself over 5 years at least. I’m no Lambie fan might I add..

  110. Afternoon Guys- been a real hectic 2 days. I wish to thank the guys for their comments about James and what advice I can give to any aspiring rugby player. Yes you need a skill set but hard work is 70% and skill 30%. James was a small lad right through his schooling- 136cm and 42 kgs at Craven Week 2009. His determination to make it was the biggest factor and he has put in the extra hours that is required for success. Last year was a watershed year for James with the Kings winning the u19CC and it is good to see 6 boys from that side making it into Dawie’s side. Jeremy Ward was very unlucky not to make Craven Week in 2014 but this is true vindication. It is going to be very interesting because with front foot ball, that backline will do wonders at the WC.

  111. @Outside Looking in: spot on

    @Grasshopper: what on earth is wrong with Campese and Horan – both world class players who wrote memoirs of that 1992 test and how the Aussies were so keen to get out there and drill SA because they were shown zero respect as world champs – and drill us they did. It was a rugby lesson we have been taught over and over and over again – when big can’t beat small our skills are non-existent.

    Not sure really why you reference the Cavaliers either – it was not a sanctioned tour, with zero support from the NZ government or the union or the NZ public. They players were playing for cash – not each other or the country. Given the context around that tour and Ken Rowlands whistle – SA should have smashed them out of sight, not just sneaked home 3-1.

  112. @Grasshopper: If I was coach, with a mandate to select on MERIT, but ‘desperate’ to have Lambie in my starting side with the reasons you’ve provided…I would slot him in at 12, in place of an Esterhuizen who disappoints week-in-week-out, rather than bench a young man who has stepped up during a fly-half crisis, and is building his confidence. But hey, what do I know.

  113. @Outside Looking in: Please quote the number of white soccer internationals compared to the combined number of previously disadvantaged players in cricket and rugby since 1996.

    Then also quote the number of current white PSL players to the number of previously disadvantaged players in the Currie Cup and franchise cricker squads.

    Just to verify your statements as an ethical journalist….

  114. @Playa: I agree with you, play Lambie at fullback and Willie at outside centre, find room. Esterhuizen should not be playing centre…

  115. @akw: So fkc opportunity, let’s respect the elderly, as we have done with Burger, Matfield? It would have been interesting to see what would happen if Garth April’s name was Johan Goosen, or Handre Pollard. Also of interest would be what happens when Sbu Sithole returns from injury.But I’m speculating :roll:

  116. @Playa: Last I looked Pat Lambie was 25, not exactly elderly. Matfield was closing on 40. I would suggest as captain then Goosen and Pollard would be relegated to the bench…

  117. @Grasshopper: True, not a dead horse. Its past the stage of decomposing- only the skeleton remains. But at the end of the day, the realities will dawn upon them. History in Africa has proven it and SA will be no exception. In fact, Zimbabwe, at the same stage after “independence”, generally speaking, was in a better condition than what SA is now. That is a really frightening truth.@Roger: At least you have shown your true colours- an apologist for a corrupt and incompetent regime. Read what RW Johnson has to say rather than the Uncle Sams who you suck up to. Just maybe it will help to unscramble the confusion between the ears.

  118. @Playa: I am sorry, but comparing Lambie to Marfield is ridiculous. And I think April is great, but it does not matter to me whether Jesus was chosen at 10, playing Lambie is the correct thing to do. If you went off sick at work and came back and was moved to a different position because the guy that stood in for you did a good job you would be pissed off, why is this different?

  119. @akw: Can I post graphics here? There’s a graphic I helped compile in 2014 which I need to update on the respective numbers in rugby, soccer and cricket. I sourced the information from the various cricket, rugby and soccer annuals and the database websites…

  120. @akw: I read our questions out of context. There was an article out a few months back with numbers and names of what he is talking about. I’ll try and track it down and send the link.

    @Grasshopper: Figure of speech, no meant literally. April is 25, a year younger. My point was, it has failed us to pick players because they are the incumbent instead of picking those who are putting their hands up. And you guys advocate that we do, and yet complain when this happens till they turn 40. We are 10 games into Super Rugby, the Sharks have been doing rather well in the last 3 weeks, and it is ok to fast track a player coming from injury,who hasn’t featured at all in the campaign (last competitive game in November 2015) because he is the incumbent???

  121. @Outside Looking in: Ah, changing the mindset. Now we are getting closer to the truth. You mean like the old Soviet Union? Like Communist China ? What about North Korea? For that we need political Commissars.In every school, do you think? Or just as “regional inspectors”?@Grasshopper: And no, in Africa, it means compromise. It means discarding your values and embracing those which has seen the continent being the begging bowl of the world. They have seen what their policies/ views have resulted in on the rugby and cricket fields, but they want more. They have confused transformation with destruction and we – those with their eyes open at least, inside and outside of SA,can see this over the total spectrum of SA society. But yet this “minister”, the one who destroyed his own department, wants to interfere in sport and demands “transformation”. He is part of the most corrupt regime in Africa- and that says a lot, the third most violent country in the world, yet considers himself to prescribe to sporting bodies. That is how absolutely sick, society has become. And then we have apologists for this political abortion.

  122. @Playa: you and I both agree on Esterhuizen – and now I see Rob Houwing on News 24 touting him as possible springbok no 12 (can you believe it). I also agree 100% with you on Lambie – play him at 12 and April at 10 and drop the one trick pony that is Esterhuizen. Think of the chaos Lambie and April could cause together interchanging at 10 and 12 off 3rd and 4th phase ball – would love to watch

  123. @Outside Looking in, @Playa, @Roger: The general jist of your arguments lean to a FAIR and equitable playing field – not so? t.

    Do any of you believe that we should be DISCRIMINATING against deserving players of ANY colour to achieve “targets”? Just answer Yes or No please – the arguments to substantiate “grey” statements do unravel a bit.

    @Roger: You have somehow already answered it with your support of our “illustrious” sport minister’s (sic) actions.

  124. @akw: Playing him at 10, when he doubles up as a quality 12, at a time when there’s an idiot in that position, and the current 10 is playing good rugby is NOT right.

    I’ll leave you to decide the level of ridiculousness when it comes to your analogy of an employee going on sick leave :mrgreen:

  125. @BOG: you read and believe what you want to and I’ll do the same – geddit, goddit – good – and have a nice life :wink:

  126. @Buffel: I recollect that Ward was picked for the 2014 EP CW side with Heino Bezuidenhout as centre partner…Did he get injured just before the tournament again?

  127. @Playa: Because he is the captain boet. Remember the captain is the leader. He is not just a squad player. Remember again I am not a Lambie fan, but there are certain morals and ethics that need to stand precedent. Also, April is not the only reason the Sharks are playing better…

  128. @BrotherBear: Yes – if two players of equal or similar ability are competing for the same position then the POC gets selected.

    I support good ‘ol Fikile to the point where I believe SA Rugby needed a proper wake up call

  129. @BOG: I think what quite a few bloggers and ministers lack is perspective. They have lived in SA their whole lives and not seen how the rest of the world operates. I have lived and worked in 5 countries, England, Ireland, Denmark, South Africa and Israel. Visited over 40. I think I have some perspective. But what do people with experience know……

  130. @Roger: Even though winning a Rugby Wold Cup bid might create thousands of jobs and give SA a massive cash injection from global supporters carrying stronger currencies? Old Fikile needs to think a little…

  131. @Playa: I agree, April must be allowed to start again this week. Either Lambie comes off the bench for the final 25 (bleed him back in slowly) or starts at 12. Why change a winning Sharks side with a 10 growing in confidence?

  132. @Grasshopper: don’t for one minute think you are the only one on this blog who has worked and travelled elsewhere Hopper – I too have lived and worked in the UK and Italy for 10 years and have travelled thru’ Africa, the Far East, Europe, the USA and Canada.

    SA Rugby will still be allowed to bid an the WC – they have opened dialogue with the minister but they have been warned and if you try to understand where Playa and I are coming from (I certainly understand where you are coming from) then all the better for it.

  133. @Grasshopper: Ja you are a Zeilinga fan. Our supposed messiah at 10, I think you referred to him as the ‘Jonny Wilkinson of South Africa”?

  134. @Roger: well you are a rare breed amongst us then, seems most people have their blinkers on. Imagine having to listen to Fikile, I would tell him exactly where to go. SA Rugby is not a flippin charity.

  135. @Bwana: Yes, if he was given that opportunity to play SA Under 20 when he could of he would be excelling now. But they decided to bring in Pollard off the school field. Fred was an amazing schoolboy player, College supporters should know that. He was doing well for the Sharks, got a very unlucky injury and then the Sharks dumped him. He is a confidence player and his has been severely damaged. The Cheetah’s are not exactly a franchise to relaunch yourself from.

  136. @Roger: I saw that…my pencil was sharpened and I was ready to pluck both my eyes out 8-O
    But then, I kept hope alive, and believed that one day, I will get to see April at 10, with Lambie at 12 doing wonders and causing havoc…without my eyes I wouldn’t be able to witness that, so I put my pencil down. The fact that a utility back who is captain in SA, on coming back from injury has to go into the position he was originally picked for, even though there is a glaring weakness in a position he plays just as well (if not better) should not deter me from keeping hope alive.

  137. @BrotherBear: The general jist of your arguments lean to a FAIR and equitable playing field – not so? t.

    Do any of you believe that we should be DISCRIMINATING against deserving players of ANY colour to achieve “targets”?
    YES – if 2 players are of the same quality

  138. @Roger: No matter what way or angle you look at it, your comment is a racists statement. No matter that it is officially sanctioned by “ANY” authority, it remains racist as it benefits one “race” above the other. If you had said; ” give one to the greenie and the alternative to the pienkie” it would probably be more equitable and acceptable.

  139. @Playa: During the previous “regime” people also hid behind “official policy” and used it to advance their personal agendas – it did not make it right then, and it is not right now.

  140. At the end of the day Quotas, BEE, EE whatever you want to call it is racist. The World should treat this as they did apartheid and stand against it. Remember not only white people can be racist. This is something many still need to grasp…

  141. @BrotherBear: As a person with a conscience (I would like to believe I do), I sympathise sometimes, and I feel these things should happen naturally…until I think of Chilliboy (converting Derrick Kuhn from flank to hooker), Derrick Hougard as a scrum half, being picked and refusing to be picked at wing ahead of Mvovo, Kolisi being bypassed by a lock when he was already in the match 23, the current April situation, to name but a few…and I ask myself…where were the BOGs of this world when this was happening? Why do he newspapers, and other rugby pundits make excuses such as ‘game plan’ for these unfair practices? What happened to letting a player play himself out of position? The trouble is people like you look at this from the perspective that race based selection in the favour of a white person ended in 1992. Well, the wake up call you need is that it is still an ongoing thing, the blinkers, as Grassy would say, are worn by those who do not see it. That is the transformation needed – the ongoing practices of the past!

  142. @Roger: What is it with everyone? What cant’t they see what we see?

    We are not going back to the Broeder days, we are now in the Brother days.

  143. @The Beast: @Roger: Sure, ask the people of Zimbobwe, where the fools rule and the bigger ones follow. Or what am I saying.? Undoubtedly, both of you fall in the latter category. You may be king in your own fools paradise, but there is a bigger world out there.@Grasshopper: They are fed propaganda in small quantities daily and dont realize that the ship which they so admire, is sinking at a rapid rate. Any person, who shows support for that vertically and mentally challenged minister,must himself have diminished capacity.

  144. @The Beast: Your comment is yet another reflection of your political ignorance. The “Broeders” have a very warm relationship with the current regime, Andre T. The blind can see? Its not dark- its the inside of your arse.

  145. @BOG: Typical arrogant Grey Broeder…….maybe you need to work on your relationship with the Current Regime cos you living in la-la land.

  146. I do not want to get involved with this debate. However, I would like to state a few facts, for all of you to consider.
    Fact 1: 6 Players of the unbeaten starting 15 of Boishaai, 2015 team, that won 21 games on a trot, were black.
    Fact 2 : 7 Players of the current unbeaten starting 15, are black.
    Fact 3: All of these players was/is chosen on merit, with no quotas involved.
    Fact 4: According to player agents, talented black players are locally ,much more sought after, than their white counterparts.
    Fact 5: This, obviously, is then even more advantageous to the black players as well, when negotiating their contracts.
    Fact 6: The number of black players to be included in representitive sides, is also an advantage to some of them, but definately not all.
    Fact 7: Being part of a so called rugby school , is definately an advantage, when it comes to recognition for higher honours.
    Fact 8 : Their is plenty of quality and talented black players in our country.

    My view point on this whole issue, is that the government,s quota system, wants to hide the fact that they have not put in the efforts/ finance at grassroots level, to even up the playing field for the disadvantaged majority. Instead of investing in proper playing surfaces and coaching for these citizens of ours, they will send huge delegations to big sporting events, at a huge cost.To keep their supporters happy,in a cosmetic way, they promote the quota system, saying that the officials of a sporting code does not want to transform.
    Of course there is people, in all facets of life, who are negative to change. However, I am sure that they are a small minority.

    Lastly I want to mention that talented black players from rural, or so called none rugby schools , are very sought after by talent scouts of schools, as well as player agents, who make a living from such players. They are quikly being snuffed out, and offered burseries at so called rugby schools.

  147. @The Beast, @Roger: Sorry to see you guys have now been pushed off the cliff and digressed to “barstool” talk. Probably the reason why @Outside Looking in has left you to your own devices.
    @Playa: I agree with you that the present selection process still contains remnants of the past and is definitely not always equitable (both ways). All I am asking for is an equal playing field, regardless of “who your auntie was”.

  148. @Kattes-Strofes: totally agree with you. Glenwood paints a similar picture with Victor Tsewu & Lucky Maduna playing 1st team in 95 & 96 on merit. Both made Natal Schools in 1997. Since then Glenwood has picked non white players on merit only and done quite well producing many non white KZN reps. This was 20 years ago! The gov needs to scrap this quotas bullocks!

  149. @The Beast: @The Beast: Wow. A blast from the past. PW stating adapt or die! No difference Basil d’Oliveira being told you are to dark for the the team or telling a 11 year old boy at Gauteng trails “Sorry, your race is not right, you are to white. Maybe you are a PW fan?

  150. @Kattes-Strofes: There is only ONE question which must be asked and its the following: Are the representative teams in SA selected on purely merit and can it categorically be stated that there there are No instructions/guidelines regarding the racial composition of the team? We know that the answer to this is NO !!! It has NOTHING to do with individual school representation, Ashwin Desai, in a recent article alluded to the fact that you can have all the development and transformation that you want, but if NUTRITION and INFRASTRUCTURE is absent, it is MEANINGLESS. Both these areas are the responsibility of government and they have failed dismally. The garden knome is part of that regime and he is trying to hide his personal and his governments failures behind “transformation”

  151. @BrotherBear: what, where, what …how – what just happened – what have I missed?!

    Bog still predicting the end of the world – check
    Grasshopper still threatening to emigrate (again) – check
    Beast still trolling- check
    Playa still the voice of reason – check

    same shi#t different day :roll:

  152. @Roger: hahahah! Well the country is in the dwang! Only an idiot would still be keeping their head in the sand if they were not considering it.

  153. @Playa: You sure it was Derick – maybe Francois Hougaard?
    Thing is, as I see it there is discrimination to both sides. You mentioned quite a number of them especially where a white player was preferred to a black player. But we also know certain players should not have been in the World Cup squad on merit. Some non white players were very good, but even better players were left at home.
    And this is the problem.
    We constantly see a lot of young black players coming through, just for another white player developing and becoming better. Then the white player is selected.
    But on the other hand, when black players eclipse a white player, the black players struggle to get the recognition they deserve – and it takes a lot longer for them to be selected.
    So, the moral is as long as we judge players according to skin colour and not for the person and player they are, we will have problems with selection.
    But right now, if we are honest and select purely according to merit, we will at most have 5 non-whites in a Springbok squad of 23. If however, we look at 2019, it can be 8 to 9, but not the 50% promised by SARU.
    And SARU promised 50% because they did not do a proper scientific analysis. As usual!

  154. Of all the mostly average comments here, the mention of Lambie at 12 and le Roux at 13 is by far the most disconcerting. I can only assume that posting the team was supposed to spark a bit of debate on the specific players, strengths, weaknesses, alternatives etc. But, it is fair to say, some of you rather chose to let yourselves down, quite badly

  155. @Grasshopper: Roger has obviously run out of content- CHECK !! Same sh1t EVERY day . When someone says that he will fire a client, you know that he is confused.

  156. Having read through the whole thread again, it has to be said, you cannot script a modern SA soapie better, all the characters are here! A few defiant disempowered Afrikaners, a typical Soutie that sat at the Apartheid table, enjoyed the fruits (tut-tutting disapprovingly at how distasteful it is, while the butler whiped his bek), the educated but angry black guy, frustrated with the governments failures and archaic white coaches (things will get better, son, the coaches will leave, but you will have to vote that government out) and lastly the educated black boy that has obviously attended a few EFF rallies recently. Priceless ?

  157. The reality is that racism is still rampant in a lot of unions, especially at school level where the unions tend to be run be ‘old school’ guys who still harbor a lot of ill feelings towards different races. I have seen it first hand and continue to see it. If there was no quota system most players who are deserving and better would not get a look in. I still see it often where a top black center is moved to wing. I am so positive with the quality of POC coming through, South african rugby does need a wake up call and the balances will be corrected. We will one day have a situation where real merit is chosen. After all our country has been through we need to do this.

    We are in a mess and maybe its this mess that will move us forward.

  158. @Djou: Francois…my apologies. Slip of the finger.

    You make a good point. And I agree with you on principle.But you forget the other side…sometimes we see a black player coming through and become the ‘best available’ in his position, only for a white one to surpass him because he is labelled as ‘the next best thing’. Case in point would be to recall what happened with Johan Goosen/Elton Jantjies in 2012. Mind you Goosen wasn’t even the ‘incumbent’ as the defence claims in Lambie’s case.

    See, from my view it’s a chicken and egg situation-or not…because in this case we know which came first. If we were to be honest with each other, and say we have a brilliant white centre playing for Paarl Gym today, and there was an equally brilliant black centre playing for Union High. Which one would be viewed as a ‘future Bok’ by the people on this forum? Which one would be seen as a great Biltzbokke prospect?It’s those perceptions, which filter to selectors. Mindset needs to change. Just last year, there were already perceptions of Bosch ending up like Earl Rose…I recall no such thing when Handre Pollard was running the show as a high schoolboy. For as long as those perceptions exist, there will remain a need for a black biased approach, otherwise we will never achieve equilibrium.

    The basic punch line for solving a maths equation is “what you do to the left, you must do to the right’. It’s time to do to the right what has been (and still being done) to the left.

  159. @Ploegskaar: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: and the enlightened Duchie tending to his vineyard in Stellenbos and extending his middle finger to the world with a bottle of chilled Sauvignon Blanc at hand …..

    @Orbit: spot on

    @BOG: you fired ou Bog – accept it and move on !

  160. @Orbit: And all that remains is a civil war.

    BOG, I’m sorry that various people have been hammering you about your culture and school. I’m a full on “Soutpeel” don’t even know if I spelt that correct. The people that are from or attend Grey College Bloem are the salt of the earth. Much the same as the people from the Eastern Cape.
    I myself with my dick hanging in the salty sea made friends with a family from Grey Bloem. It was the best thing that could have ever happen to myself and my Lilly White family. We over the years have gotten to understand the Culture of the Afrikaner (Boer).

    We all stand for one thing-FAIRNESS. Who cares if the next generation of Springboks are SA’s “All Blacks” much the same as Dale College formidable teams. As long as its fair for all. SA Rugby does need a wake up call for sure. But what will the cost be? Its sad :cry:

  161. @Roger: For someone who probably drinks Paarl Perle, your attempt to show off your “knowledge” of wines, is laughable. Check into an old age home or join the Mbalula fan club where you can suck up to him at a discount.

  162. @Roger: I think you might have overplayed your hand a bit. But then, not seeing it in that light is a further enlightenment (on the essence of being).

  163. @Bush: Yes, my culture is rather mixed with my family being English- as in British. As far as the spelling is concerned, I shall leave it to one of the others to correct- just one letter out. The irony here, is that this has absolutely NOTHING to do with GCB or any other school in particular. Its about a principle, called MERIT.and being colour blind with team selections.

  164. @Orbit: Focus on fact, rather than fairy tales. Racism is not confined to one particular group- its evenly distributed.And we are in a nosedive

  165. @Playa: The difference is the centre at Gim will be playing equally as good centres, defences and players from Boishaai, Paul Roos, Outeniqua, Oakdale, Boland Landbou, SACS, Wynberg, Grey Bloem etc every week. The centre at Union High won’t be playing against the same calibre of opposition so might look amazing at that level until they step up. Now nothing is to say the centre at Gim isn’t non white, which is actually most likely the case. Most of the Cape Schools backlines are about 90% non white….

  166. @Grasshopper: I never judge, observe yes. Soutie was not aimed at you ou maat, you went to an Afrikaans Technical HS. But every soapie needs a conflicted/ambivalent character. Consider yourself hired ?

  167. @BOG: impossible to be colour blind when the convener of selectors hates a certain race and thinks the game belongs to white people.

  168. @Roger: Sub a-political for enlightened, purveyer of protein for wine farmer and a rumbustious Andreas Shiraz for that SB ?

  169. Bog, comparing SA in 2016 with Zim in 2000/1 ???? Really? You need help.

    Grasshopper stop making excuses for Fred he’s not good enough qha ke. Harping on about how good he was in school won’t make him a decent S18 player.

    Playa, abantu bebala bazohlala besilwa oko ngenxa yabantu abafana naba balapha kule nyewe. Abantu abangafuni umamela. Inoba uzode uphume izimvi kucacisa into enye mhla nezolo. Andiqondi uba ikhona into endinophinda ndiyongeze, amagama akho mahle acwengile futhi zinyani zodwa.

  170. @Ploegskaar: perfect weather in JHB for a few bottles of that right now – accompanied by my world famous (in my mind) lamb knuckle potjie!

  171. @Umtata: Not making excuses for Fred, he had the potential but never met it, it happens unfortunately. I must say I enjoyed the 32-5 win over Dale this year :wink:

  172. @Outside Looking in: As jy as n gerekende,erkende skrywer sou wees sou jy lees dat dit nie hier gaan oor KWOTAS nie maar dit gaan oor die uitnodiging en dan meer die samestelling van die jong bokkies, die groep waaruit gekies is is na 1994 gebore en almal was saam op skool en ook saam en teen mekaar gespeel. ALMAL is dit eens maak nie saak wie gekies word nie dit moet net die beste wees en om vir n jong man te se jy kan maar waai oorsee ons het jou nie nodig nie is een oogag as jy weet wat dit beteken en om af te sluit sit ek n span vir jou op sonder name as dit jou sou pas wat ons dink n goeie span sou wees:
    1 wp
    2 bulle
    3 leeus
    4 wp
    5 vs
    6 wp
    7 ep
    8 ep
    9 bulle
    10 bulle
    11 vs
    12 ep
    13 bulle
    14 wp
    15 leeus
    16 wp
    17 bulle
    18 sharks
    19 sharks
    20 bulle
    21 ep
    22 leeus
    23 vs
    24 ep
    25 wp
    26 wp
    27 vs
    28 bulle
    Hierdie is n baba bokkie groep op meriete en nie kwotas of ras nie

  173. @Roger: Sounds spot on and similar to my favourite, whole bone in leg of lamb potjie. Red wine, peeled tomatoes, salt, pepper, bay leaves, fresh garlic, baby potatoes, zukini (all to be served on a mash side or basmati), plenty of kameeldoring, 4 hours to kick back and a well oiled mechanical arm ???

  174. Fact is that there are players there who wouldn’t have been selected if they hadn’t been non-white. Otherwise why have a 50% quota and scrape in with exactly 50%, as they do every year? Why not 15 or 16 or 17 coloured/black players?

    Long term I think “transforming” the game could make us stronger. But they’re doing it wrong. Destroying the very base from where their strongest players come from and trying to replace them with lesser talented players. Complete BS

  175. @Umtata: No, Im not comparing Zim with SA. As I pointed out, Zim in 1999/2000, WAS in fact in a better state than SA now. You seem surprized? Perhaps a sign that you should wake up

  176. The bottom line and in conclusion, is this. The ANC regime, over the last 20 years, has embarked on a “program” of “transformation”. The result is chaos and destruction. Virtually everything they have laid their hands on, they have destroyed. And its there for everyone to see.Every area, every government department, has been mismanaged into the ground. And now, they have decided with this tried and tested proof of failure, to focus on sport, including rugby. Given their lack of capacity, their destructive behaviour, I can understand this obsession . However, what goes beyond me, is that there are people, here also, who actually think, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that sport (rugby) will be an exception. Yes, and my grandfather is pope Benedict VI. They are not merely naive- they are downright stupid

  177. @vatikaki: I’m not sure that this has been mentioned before……2019……all schools that want players to considered for CW or GK selection must have a 1stXV that is 50% non white. Non compliance results in exclusion from trials.

  178. @umbiloburger: Already, CW is a farce and with what you have just said, its about to become an even bigger one. Many schools will withdraw from CW altogether and several provinces wont be present at all. Hopefully, this will encourage them to create alternative or paralell structures even sooner. As it is, we already have bigger interest in some of the festivals than in CW, and understandably so.

  179. I like how it’s said that the RWC squad had no pressure to pick quotas.

    But Marcell Coetzee missed out to Siya Kolisi (don’t gimme that injury BS. Marcell was good to go on opening day).

    BOG the only one on here saying it like it is.

    Eks bly eks n buitelander. Die haat tussen rasse maak dat die onsekerheid altyd daar gaan wees. Ek sal terug kom wanneer Malema wen en ons moet begin muure bou om ons volk en land te beskerm. Judge Jansen se dit soos dit is en die gemors wil nie f****n hoor nie. Hulle wil net aangaan. Nee Dankie.

    En ek lag as mense probleem het met Grey. Ek was klein tydjie op Fichardtpark en daar het almal gedink Grey is klomp liberaale gemors.

  180. @BOG: I think schools will be divided. Systems like Bokkie week will develop with strength. Private and self funded school boys rugby week

  181. @Bush: That was going to be my question too. Surely the gov can’t instruct the private schools to do anything. The private schools will get stronger and there will be a big private school tourno where quotas will not apply. Gosh crowds will flock there..

  182. @umbiloburger: please provide the credible source of your statement, or are you feeding the blog “slap chips”?

  183. Bog stop lying, SA is not in a worse state then Zim 2000/1 please stop.

    Vati….please Kolisi deserves to be in the mix don’t start that drivel

    Umbilo…please direct us to a link where that has been stated by saru or a cw official.

    Vati…Bog has been preaching about the demise of SA rugby just like the Mayans preached about the end of days.

  184. @kcob: I agree with you, he is a bit slight in stature but doing well for 20. I do think Chait is up there too. But as these young men are lillywhite I fear they will be lost to other countries. Same can be said for talents like Malcolm Marx, Jason Jenkins, RG Snyman etc. Paul Willemse will end up playing for France.

  185. @kcob: Next thing the peanut gallery are going to say Oupa Mahoje is better than PSDT, Lood, Eben, RG Snyman and Jason Jenkins. I like Oupa, but he is not quite international standard yet. Nizaam Carr & Kolisi are now.

  186. The poor BOG-not only no GCB reps in SA u 20-his country is now worse off than ZIM pre 2001!!!!

    8-O 8-O 8-O

  187. @Umtata: Lying? I was in Zimbabwe personally in that period and witnessed it myself. As little as you may dislike this fact, it remains the truth.And that is my concern here- people avoid the facts. Five years later, Zim was in total chaos. And that is the point I tried to illustrate. A country seldom collapses overnight. Much of what we are seeing right now in SA, did not start its demise under Zuma- it began 20 yrs ago. The legacy of Zuma is still ahead. And that is a frightening prospect. And in case you have not noticed- SA until 2 yrs ago, the economic giant of Africa, has now been pushed into 3rd place after Nigeria and Egypt. Perhaps a prelude for SA rugby?

  188. @kcob: So you’re just going to dismiss the fact that Bosch had a few injuries? Tedder is good but not better than Bosch.

  189. @Umtata: Kufuneka bayazi ukuba abekho msulwa kuyo yonke lento. Futhi bethanda bengathanda izokwenzeka. Kudala sicengana nabo, sidikiwe ngoku.

  190. I read that the riff raff of SA society, the ANCYL, yesterday, marched to the offices of SARU in CT, demanding the acceleration of “transformation”. The country is on the verge of collapse, but this is their priority. At least it explains the state of Africa. They said that the march was just the “warning shot” and that if their demands are not met, they will disrupt matches. Excellent ! This should encourage sporting bodies to speed up the process of creating alternative non racial bodies. It should also give momentum to those abroad who wants to demonstrate against SA teams which have been selected along racial lines and where the regime has interfered. SANZAR rules are clear. There shall be NO political interference with teams, and the time is now fast approaching where they will have to adhere to their own rules.

  191. @BOG: once people get bored of watching manufactured teams play Super Rugby & Currie Cup etc, they will switch off Supersport1, watch school rugby instead and then the 60% or so SA contributes to SANZAR will rapidly reduce. Then SANZAR & World Rugby will start to boycott SA rugby, it’s going to happen.

  192. And this whole blogging in Xhosa, what’s that all about? Nothing worse than people being disrespectful and talking in a language that some in the conversation don’t understand. I should maybe blog in Gaelic going forward…

  193. The same can be said for Afrikaans. It’s an English blog lets blog in English. It’s not Skoolseunsrugbyblog is it?

  194. @Grasshopper: You might want to reconsider that statement considering the amount of Afrikaans that gets written on this blog. If you’re interested in what we’re saying, jus ask for a translation, and I’ll happily provide one for you.

  195. @Playa: It’s bloody irritating to have to use Google translate or ask a friend, takes time. This blog should have an English only policy…

  196. And so we regress and deviate further, was just a question of time before the language issue reared its tired childish head. Congrats to Midas Man Andre Tredoux by the way, saw both Blose & Mafuma’s potential, just reward for both boys and one of the best talent scouts in SA rugby. Maybe time for a more appreciative Union to contract his services

  197. @Grasshopper: The attendance figures for the Super matches, have shown quite a dramatic decline, first in NZ and Oz and now in SA. Many people have retained their DSTV subscription for one reason only- sport. But now they are canceling in numbers. Those who are demanding transformation and political interference, are the last ones who will pay to go and watch rugby. Very typical, because they feel absolutely nothing for the sport. Athletes are given almost no help and must find their own way to sporting events around the world. But politicians, who are about 1000 shits behind schedule and have never been on a sporting field, are given business class tickets to visit events, primarily to indulge in the food , rather the sport. As I said, if someone cannot see that we are on a road of self destruction, he must be blind and stupid.

  198. @Grasshopper: Reference to my post at 19:20 last night regarding perceptions, and the need for a change of mindsets. Basically saying because of that, the white population (generally) should also take some blame for their refusal to accept the other side of the argument – the argument provided in that post.

  199. This is such a sad thread.

    I am looking forward to seeing our 2019 WC scrumhalf playing.

  200. @Playa: remember Verwoed and co was 50 years ago, current whites in the working world have absolutely no affiliation to him, his policies etc. We don’t care, we just want to be treated equally as did non whites in apartheid. I’m not saying it’s at the same level but BEE, EE and quotas are in affect white oppression. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Merit is the only way forward to stop another racial divide. We have had enough of it in our country, we need to move forward when all South Africans are treated equally.

  201. @Ploegskaar: should we bring in the age debate too whilst we rubbing salt into wounds. Are we sure all of these under 20 players are under 20. Our old mate Siyabonga Tom and his other alias’s burnt Glenwood badly. Some of the kids playing now certainly don’t look like kids.

  202. @Grasshopper: I unfortunately do not have as much time on my hands as I did yesterday. But i’ll say one thing…if you think Verwoerd’s ideals and mindset died with him, or died in 1990 when Mandela was released…or died in 1992, or even in 1995…you have got to be the most naïve person alive. Or maybe you just see good in people…or maybe, just maybe, your skin colour is not dark enough to experience the shait we still have to deal with EVERDAY. But I’ll leave it at that.

  203. @Playa: I believe everybody in this country is experiencing “shait” of some sort. If only we can all agree to get rid of the bugger and get something in place EVERYBODY can believe in. “The head of the snake will lead us into strange and dark burrows.”

  204. @Grasshopper: I think there are more positives with regards to GW to focus on currently. You really need to be a desperate detractor to pull that tired old stick out now. Looking forward to seeing this GW team mix it up with the big boys this year & would be surprised if they don’t finish T5

  205. @Playa: same can be said for Marxism, Communism, Nationalism etc. It doesn’t mean the majority believe in that kak. Trust me Boet there is oppression all over the world for many reasons other than race. Ask Jewish people. They don’t pull the anti-Semitic card all the time, they push on. Same with the Irish etc. How a majority with a black gov can still feel oppressed I don’t know. If I was a talented black sportsman I would be asking for the scrapping of quotas. Any doubt in my selection would irritate me highly. I would want to be there for being the best! Full

  206. @Ploegskaar: well Monnas at Monnas is first up after we play a tough DHS derby, I’ll be there. If they can get a win there then the boys will believe they can win in Pretoria, especially with Palvie & Smit back to beef up the pack. I think Grey Bloem will be a step too far but who knows. It could be a close to 95% win season which would be our best year since 2000!

  207. @Grasshopper: Eish, Glenwood will really have to be good to beat a star-studded Monnas team this year. My contact tells me they are so good that a full 15 Monnas players are in the preliminary U18 CW and Academy week teams. Wow, they must be sh.t hot to let Helpies and Jeppe suck on the hind tit. Two teams that put one (and a bit more) over them earlier this year.

  208. @BrotherBear: Well for once our pack won’t be smaller than Monnas at 835kg, so we might be able to compete there and let our backs do the talking. Holtzhausen and Maduna are hot! Lubbe and co on the wings are quick. But the same can be said for Monnas. At altitude it will be a huge ask but still possible, the boys must believe…

  209. Im not sure how Verwoerds name was brought into this discussion, but Im guessing its his role as “architect of apartheid”. Yet again, one of those historic lies which are being perpetuated. He was certainly not the “architect”- he merely made a few adjustments to the structure. The people who must get credit for the main structure, are the British and Colonial authorities. And dont challenge me- I could list the apartheid laws which were promulgated long before 1948. Not as an admirer of him- just correcting a misconception, the one thing which there seems in over- supply , here. And dont give the impression here that racism is confined to a certain group. The fact that Crap24 ignores most of what is happening, does not mean that its not taking place. There are hundreds of comments by black people, which are sickening. But when a white does something similar, its blown out of proportion and presented as if its common. Remember Penny Sparrow?

  210. @BOG: Yes, you must remember the strapline, ónly whites can be racist’……sorry I mentioned Verwoerd, but you are right these ideas were spawned pre Roman times, he just enhanced them to a degree. Hitler has his own views too, so did Stalin, Ghingus Khan, the list is endless…

  211. @BOG: you are officially the most pig headed naive and self rightous person I have ever had the misfortune of reading. You have not got the faintest idea the crippling and impact Apartheid on generations of black people how lintching and slavery changed the mental state of generations of Black people. I truly do not understand how with a clear concious you could utter bile you have writen on this thread. I hate the ANC and the corruption and rot they have perpetuated through looting. However people like you are the sole reason the ANC will stay in power cause in every corporate and every facet of life there is that angry old uncle like yourself who believes they are better than black people at everything they do you could be a car mechanic but walk into a black doctors office and think you are better qualified merely because you are a pale male in fact what I am saying because in the sad crawl space you inhibit you would never go to a black doctor cause our brains are not big enough to comprehend medical literature right and plus there is a more deserving white person who could have been a better doctor out there right. You are a truly pathetic being and the fact some of the people who agree with the bile you spew also agree with people like Judge Marble Jansen is truly dispicable and shows you off for what you trully are its starts with a R but at at least you are liberal Racist though that should make you feel better about you sad pathetic existence …. @vatikaki please stay in whatever foreign crawl space you choose your words which right Afrikaans as if to hide from the masses are disgusting, and

    @ grasshooper you choose to stand with these people I am at loss for words next time you want say apartheid is over move on think of all the help you got from your parents when you where younger take it away. Think of the hundreds of people who have to get up 3 am and take 100 km train trip daily to get to work and I am not talking about the Gautrain….. you trully at are aware of the social engineering that ripped away at the self esteem of black people that was apartheid. But it is fine please emigrate it will solve your problems

  212. That is all I will say on this topic each to their own crawl space…. shameful the commentary on this thread

  213. @BOG: @Grasshopper: “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is SUPERIOR.”

    Remember the main differentiator is that you must believe that your race is superior. There may well be ‘a few hundred’ black people who believe they are superior to white people – I too know a few. The problem here is that at the mention of white racism, you tend to go on the defensive, to point that it exists on the other side as well, and not just take ownership of yours. So yes, blacks can be racist as well…now what?

  214. @Ringo: Don’t tell me I had a privileged upbringing boet. My mom passed away when I was 10, my dad grew up in a below average income household and paid for his own Technikon. He worked 2 jobs to pay for our schooling. We lived on very little on the Bluff. Not quite township squalor but very tight. I know what it’s like to pay my own way. What you forget is this was the past, we have had 20 years of ‘re-balancing’, how much longer should this go on for? My kids are completely oblivious to any of these struggles, why should they be affected. Let us deal with our past issues not them. My main point is BEE, EE and quotas are racist, why should that be allowed now just to correct an imbalance of the past. Now, I’m not saying there isn’t poverty, illiteracy and unemployment now, but that is not the white peoples fault, it’s that of the government the majority elected. Vote for a party that will make unselfish changes and you will see an improvement. However, the masses will never vote for a ‘white’ party like the DA, because of fear of going back to apartheid. Their opinion is Musi is a white pawn. Rubbish, he is a very well educated and wise young leader, someone I have no issue voting for and will do for going forward. If only the masses could see that. We seem to dwell in the past too much, let’s look forward and move together as a nation, because BEE, EE and quotas are a ticking time bomb….

  215. @Ringo: I am not really concerned about your opinion, but clearly you have not read the comments, but just fired from the hip. When your family were positioning themselves for a privileged position in the old dispensation, I was active in student politics. And just for the record, I have several children of colour who I raise as my own. So, stick your misguided opinion up your liberal arse or share it with your hypocritical family and friends. But what I do stand for, is TRUTH. Obviously something you and several here, are allergic to.. And it will either shock or surprize you, but many here, support me. And while you feel compelled to give me advice, perhaps you can tell me why more than 7 million (black) people from all over Africa chose to live under apartheid in SA? They all said it was to seek jobs, housing, medical care, education, but in your infinite wisdom, you seem to say that they were misguided and came here, exclusively to be oppressed?Apartheid was very far from perfect and I was very vocal about it, but I soon discovered that what existed north of SA, was far worse. If you want to bark with the big dogs, make sure that you at least have the facts before offering a misguided opinion.

  216. @Playa: As long as you recognise it isn’t a one-way street then I’m fine with it. However, many many don’t believe that non whites can be racist. I mean come on. Julius believes he is better than everybody, same with old Jacob. Jacob actually believes he is a traditional chief running a tribe and can do what he wants…..he doesn’t really understand a democracy and what a constitution really is….it’s white noise to him. Any other president in the world would have been impeached for violating the constitution like he has. I even heard he is looking for a 3rd term, that is like kicking every South African in the teeth!

  217. @BOG: then you get the ‘struggle’ victims who ran off to the US, UK and Europe to get a western degree etc. They were really struggling out there. Those ‘struggle’ victims are the biggest hypocrites in the world. I respect those who stayed and really struggled to get freedom. For me as a minority I can’t really do much, so I either suck it up and stay or move abroad to where I am considered an equal. You never ever hear in the UK when they picking a football or rugby team about the race of the players, more about club bias..

  218. @Ringo: I guess you have now crawled back under you rock. And to ad to what Hopper says about “privilege”, I had to work as a stoker on steam trains and catch snoek on the West coast and Hout Bay to pay for my studies. How many of the present crop, would do it? And how did YOU do it? Did daddy pay? Is that why you are driven by guilt? If so, dot offload it on others to make yourself feel better.

  219. @Grasshopper: I personally witnessed them “struggling” in places like London, Lusaka Maputo—. Human trafficking, bank heists, diamond and gold smuggling, the drug trade—. Why do you think no one can touch Bob Mugarbage? He knows about all their misdemeanors when they were in exile . The same why the ministers appear so loyal to JZ. He was “intelligence” head (?????) of MK and he too, knows about their escapades

  220. @BOG: I was in OR Tambo last week and saw a bottle of Remy Martin Louis XIII going for a meagre R56,250 per bottle. I then wondered how many of those old Jacob gets through in a month….

  221. @Grasshopper: I never said you were priveledged do not put words in my mouth…. its like I am talking to wall as intelligent as you have professed to be you will never get it or you choose not to comprehend it….. Fact number one your dad was paid at least 3 times as much as any black people in an equivalent position that is if black people in the same position in fact that is if black people where allowed to do the job and so in fact your dad was earning the wage of six of his black colleagues between his two jobs and again that is if blacks were allowed to work with your dad….. whether you believe it or not white people becuase of the networks they have better opportunities and the opportunities that you had as white kid in the 80 and 90 even as one from the wrong side of the street/bluff are better than even Kagiso Rabada who went Saints bye the way. What BBBEE and representation quotas are meant to do is to provide opportunities to deserving black people with ability that equal if not better than their white counterparts to be natured and the Nats and British had 350 years and yet when Africans have had less than a generation you say that is enough to redress 350 years…. come on buddy get some perspective not everything that happens is about just you and your family. The evils of Apartheid will need atleast 2 generations to give equity and dignity to the African. Bye the way I would never vote for the DA cause Mmusi takes instructions from people like BOG so over my dead body will the BOG’s of this world ever rule SA as long as I am alive….. Madiba said if the ANC does to us what the Apartheid governent did to them we must do to the ANC what they did to apartheid government and OR Tambo said comrades let us speak the truth even if the truth echoes the words of the enemy…… truths are been spoken and we are quite aware of the rot in the ANC and we rovolting against them…. but the BOG’s, vatikaki, Penny Sparrow and Marble Jansens of this world do make me think maybe the Broederband have secretly been sabotaging our goverment go to any municipality while the majority of the political office bearers are black the beaurecrats are very much lily white and the same can be said about parastatals and goverment departments …. I audited enough of them to know what I am talking about

  222. @BOG: I paid for studies through student loan a total R 165 K which I paid back at R 3k a month over 5 yrs. Thank you very much. Its called black tax a heavy tax which still pay at work today I constantly have to prove myself to white people who less qualified than I am “yet earn more money than I do” funny. I will persevere cause I know I am good enough nobody gave me my qualifications I sweated hard for them.You and people like you just do not get it…. I have nothing else to say to you crawl back to oranje where you belong :roll:

  223. @Ringo: I call it victim mentality if you have to redress 350 years back. I’m Irish, we have suffered at the hands of the English for centuries. We not asking to redress these events. Again, it’s time to look forward. BEE has actually caused too many incompetent CEO’s etc. One should only be a CEO if experienced and qualified enough, not because of your skin colour. I have had to fix many an f-up by unqualified BEE appointments. If we a a democracy (which I dont believe we are) why should my kids be discriminated against? My dad worked hard at school and tech to deserve what he earned.

  224. @Ringo: victim mentality again. How do you know what your colleagues earn, unless you the FD. My current boss is a St Andrews Bloem educated black guy, only 35, so 2 years younger than I am. He earns R500k a year more than I do and less qualified & experienced. He is a flippin great guy, but he got the position due to BEE requirements. I’m actually fine with this, congrats to him. You see not all non whites are victims

  225. @Ringo: I was going to suggest that you are politically naive. Clearly, Im wrong. You are just blatantly stupid. But I do notice that you very conveniently side-step the question that I asked you, ie why more than 7 million black people from elsewhere in Africa, CHOSE to live in apartheid SA.They said it was for better salaries, education, medical care, security—. Have you been in Africa? I mean real Africa- West, Central—?Does not sound like it. Another FACTUAL surprize for you- to further raise your irritation levels. In the 70s, when apartheid was at its strictest, SA, including the black people, the victims, were more free than more than half of the world- at the time, under the yoke of communist, one-party and military regimes. Strange that you mention Mabel Jansen. If you dont recognise that it was a set up, you really confirm your stupidity. That peace of trash who interviewed her more than a yr ago- she is member of the EFF, decided that she had this “moral urge”to make it known. FACT is that the judge was confronted by high numbers of rapists of children who did not seem to think that their deeds were wrong and she made an honest attempt to try and understand it. Malemas case will soon be heard and guess who the presiding judge would have been? No you wont- Jansen. So, Schutte will certainly be rewarded by her master, Julius. And what about all the black racist policemen and government employees who openly encourage hatred, murder and even genocide against white people on FB? NOTHING ! You are pathetic and as in the past in Africa, the realities will soon dawn upon you. Ask those in Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Angola, Mozambique, Malawi. Crawl into your sewer and remain there until you smell the Doom.

  226. @Grasshopper: victim mentally or facts …. I did the budget for my department when I was restructuring it and then noticed that 3 people salaries exceeded those of the other 5 in the department and they also happen to be the least qualified except for fact that they are the only pale males in the department

  227. @Ringo: And given the absolute absence of substance in that what you are trying to say, Im reminded of what a labour lawyer told a trade union after long and meaningless exchanges- much like yours. He said to them: If this continues, you will leave me no option but to respond with two brief words, the first having a sexual connotation. Knowing that you are rather dof, let me provide you with an abbreviation as well: FO !!

  228. @BOG: I didn’t think you could do worse, but this has to take the cake:

    “In the 70s, when apartheid was at its strictest, SA, including the black people, the victims, were more free than more than half of the world- at the time, under the yoke of communist, one-party and military regimes.”

    Now let me go find some deaf people to tell that they’re better off than blind people… :roll:

  229. @Ringo: read a book by Scott Peck, a Road Less Traveled’, my dad quoted it a lot whilst growing up. Life is hard, once you accept that, it will become easier.

  230. @Playa: @Ringo: I remember reading a detective “who done it” novel, and the main character was a guy called Alex West, at some point quite far into the book, after I had lived line by line with the dude, and met his Nanna and kids, it suddenly dawned on me that the guy was black, and all along in my minds eye I had pictured the guy as a white guy. I was quite shocked and taken aback that I had so easily arrived at that assumption, when there was no reason for me to, other than my own point of reference! And Ringo when you went on the rampage just now, I had a similar sense, as an invisible blogger I had just assumed you were a white guy, whats with that! And why should we be defined by language, skin colour, gender or religious persuasion, although as with my perceptions, some things are sadly deeply ingrained. Sadly this has become a black vs white thing, as opposed to the development of talent and fair opportunity for all. I’ve never been pro the PDA quota system or whatever its called, but I’ve also never been disadvantaged, to the contrary, and to be honest I can’t even realistically imagine the hardship, daily struggle, crime and violence nor the battle for basic survival so many families have had to endure, let alone overcoming prejudice and alienation in a so called new democracy. I’m not sure the quota system is right or wrong, it just is what it is.

  231. @McCulleys Workshop: it certainly isn’t black vs white, it’s racial oppression (quotas) vs equal standing (merit). Why should reverse racism be allowed! It’s contrary to everything democracy stands for. Remove the past from the equation, we can’t change that. Let’s start on a clean slate and move forward equally…

  232. @Playa: You dispute it, but fail to motivate. Yet again, as in the case with Umtata, questioning my comparison with Zim, what I said, was absolutely true. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why so many black people chose to live in SA, even under apartheid. Are you really trying to to convince me that it was worse than in the communist,one-party and military dictatorships? I can give you a few comparisons between the SA black people at that time and the Soviet Union, to support my comment.

  233. @Grasshopper: Thats like asking the Jews to forget Auschwitz when you were the guy operating the gas leaver, or your wife telling you to stop being suspicious and twitchy and forget her sexual indiscretions because she only did it with four of your friends therefore you must stop being so sensitive! Easy hey.

  234. @McCulleys Workshop: Hahaha! There is something called ‘The Look’ – I cant explain it, I’ll show you one day when I make it up Botha’s Hill on time. I get it all the time. Talk to someone on the phone, correspond on e-mail, and then when you eventually meet, you get ‘The Look’. Almost always, ‘The Look’, is followed by an apology…one which doesn’t make sense…then you realise that this person thought you were white all along. It can be very condescending at times depending on the person, but I laugh it off most times. I have my theories as to why this is so, but I will not get into it. Just know that you’re not alone.

    Now you make a great point. Here I am on my way to let deaf people know they’re better off than blind people, and yet I have never been either…oh wait…I have just closed my eyes for a minute, then blocked my ears for another minute…now I know…yep…being deaf is better.

    The sad story of South African race relations. But one has to appreciate the honesty on this forum…bitter and tough as it is to swallow – Sparrow and Thieneusen (sic) are not isolated cases, neither is Malema…

    …Chicken and egg anyone?

  235. @Grasshopper: Well said. It has nothing to do with colour. Strange how the arguments against the apartheid system changed since they now hold the protected privileged positions. Personal interest and all the morals out the window.

  236. @BOG: I have experienced apartheid, I have experienced a one party state (which the Nats were effectively)…those were HELL! It is to this day the worst thing I have ever experienced…and the scars still linger – with family members whose whereabouts are still unknown, I tear up uncontrollably at the sight of a gun in front of me…and there is the small matter of the first 5 years of my life spent without a father, and a mother who wept every night …years I’ll never get back. So ja, excuse me if I cannot compare that pain to communism and military dictatorships which I have never experienced.

  237. @McCulleys Workshop: That’s the point the kids of today were not those operating the gas lever. I see it everyday, my 3 year old daughter doesn’t see colour at all…

  238. @Grasshopper: No, but the selectors and coaches were of the generation that operated the lever and thats where the mistrust exists. It is also not your three year old daughter who is arguing here, although it often sounds like it, but a 30 something year old with ingrained biases, as we all have based on so many factors, and those biases often don’t allow us to see the other side.

  239. @Playa: Just for reference, how old are you? I’m 37 so saw the last part of apartheid. A dark tanned french Mauritian friend of mine getting thrown off the beach, white only toilets & buses and white only schools. The first non white guys arrived in 1990 when I was in standard 4. Apartheid was wrong and sickening, we all know that. So why is a similar system in sport and business now OK. Yes, it’s not violent but equally as hurtful…

  240. Quasi politicians – get off our rugby blog. I’m getting pissed off by the apartheid excuses and the quota/transformation experts. Let’s talk rugby !!!! We need to face reality. We have a problem and we need to find a solution. If we agree to quotas we are in fact acknowledging that players of colour need a hand up to play with the best. That they lack the ability to compete. I refuse to believe that. There are enough successes to prove that. If we accept quotas as the beginning and end of transformation everything is lost anyway. You are all clever people. Come up with solutions that will satisfy all parties. If you want to sling political insults at each other get yourself another blog.

  241. @McCulleys Workshop: OK, up until when will that apply. 50 years once that generation dies off? If the gov could give me a timeline for how long quotas need to be applied I can maybe accept it. But it seems like it’s set-in for a while. I don’t want my boy to have fewer opportunities just because he is white.

  242. @robbie: Try another thread on the blog, you don’t have to read this one….well we not holding a gun to your head to read it..

  243. @Ringo:

    I enjoy how you put the lack of progress down solely to apartheid. As if to say the natives were civilised and cultured before the Europeans landed in Southern Africa. In your mind Shaka didn’t murder thousands of his own people just because he was sad, or slaughter women and children after already murdering the Retief delegation.

    They’re trying to rewrite history here. Like I said already, Jansens comments were spot on. Just because someone is offended doesn’t make her wrong.

    South Africa is in an unhappy marriage. There will be no hand-holding, that’s being seen to by the left who tolerate the brutal crimes against innocent people. That’s just the worst of it.

    Ou Steve nailed it on the head as well. You don’t see Afrikaans boys scaling fences so they can rape and murder elderly black woman. I try not have hate in my heart, but it’s slowly but surely building. Turning a blind eye doesn’t help anyone.

  244. @Grasshopper: I’m 34…ask Gungets about life in Mbali Township, in Pietermaritzburg in the 80s.
    But this is not a dick size measuring fest…
    If you don’t want your boy to experience fewer opportunities just because he is white, I suggest his dad stops thinking FOR the other side, and starts to empathise, and work towards a solution. I am not saying agree with what is going on, but rather understand where it comes from, where it is, and rather assist in fine tuning the process.

    Now where are those deaf mense

  245. In regards to rugby… It’s going to be a complete joke until the politicians find something else to keep them occupied.

    When I see people questioning why Scarra Ntubeni, Elton Jantjies and Lionel Mapoe weren’t at the World Cup, or why Paige didn’t play a major role, then I know that it’s no longer about giving good black players a chance but rather just replacing the white skin with black. And that they have no clue about rugby.

  246. Sad, this crap continues. You’ll carry on arguing and going around in circles till all your heads are up someone’s arses.

  247. @BOG: unless you are the Apartheid area Statistician general you are fabricating your number of 7 million. ….. there is no way on gods green earth the Apartheid goverment would have let 7 million Blacks into the country absolutely no way…. the actual number was between 350 – 500 and mainly miners from the Sadac region.. I qualified CA(SA) you ignorant racist idiot I have worked in Uganda, Kenya, Namibia, Botswana, Nigeria and Zimbabwe. I know how black people can oppress other blacks. However you are an Apartheid denilist at your core. The reason we need quotas is to unfortunately force people like you to accept change has come and need to force yoy to embrace it. I will not use anymore of my greymatter entertaining your drivel. The excuse that racist use to say I am angry hence my racist runt is insane. I once got peeed on by a group of white guys when we were on rowing tour for going out with a white girl do I go around thinking all white wanna piss on me no in fact I treat each individual as such and do generalise. I have seen that majority of cases of fraud I have seen where perpetrated by white men do I think all white I fraudsters…. No !!!!!! I do not generalise. …. I have been reading your delusional racist statements Do I think you are an idiot definitely Yes!!!!!!!!!

    @McCulleys Workshop: I guess we are predisposed to all our inherent baises the trick is to work together to save our country. Notice how when Bog realised I am black all of sudden I was stupid. There is no room in our society for people like him really sad being it happens though….. in varsity I would try explain to my white classmates at Wits that even though we were in the same class getting the same tution we were not equal…. For instance they got up at 7 drove to varsity picked up a cuppa Joe at Vida and would complain about life being hard….. I would wake at 5 am take a train to varsity for 2 hours and then only have one meal a day of pap and water but anything worth having you suffer….. when we at school at Jeppe me and my brother did not get new clothes for the entire time we there in fact we would share shoes I kid you not and we would get up 4 so that my dad could drop us off at 6h15 in order for him to drive to work in Enenerdale which is 67 km in the oppossite direction. These are apartheid structures that have made it almost impossible for black people to be on equal footing.

  248. @McCulleys Workshop: Those who are trying to defend an indefensible system of racial quotas in sport. If racism was wrong during apartheid, then racism is wrong now . Morals and principles do not change with a regime change

  249. Bog you once said Umtata high School is run down and has broken windows, since that day I have known that whatever you say might be a lie.

    Grasshopper…no one is born a bigot or a racist, your upbringing and environment determine your behavior. For example Andre Esterhuizen a “born free”

    Grasshopper…when the blog becomes strictly English I’ll stop using Xhosa. Okwa ngoku qina bhuti.

    Playa…andizudinwa tuu, ndizoba ngowoku gqibela ubhala apha. Iskhumba sam somelele.

  250. @Playa: I told you that I was a student activist, and I cannot condone everything under apartheid. But in later years, I saw the rest of Africa, and even with the excesses, it was worse elsewhere in Africa for the ordinary citizen.And then I have not yet come to the Soviet Union and Red China, which saw 30 and 40 million massacred by Stalin and Mao respectively. The black population of SA then, was 18 million and they had more vehicles than the entire Soviet population of almost 300 million. So, yes as it might have been tough, but it was even worse, in many other places. And the 7 million is proof

  251. @Umtata: Are you relly trying to tell me that Umtata High is in a good condition? I drove right past it and many of the windows, were clearly broken. And that was just one area of delapidation. Goodness me, I was on the premises as a youngste and compared with then it was a ruin, much like the rest of the Transkei, like Butterworth, Dutywa. Its heart breaking and places like QT, KWT, Stutt and EL are beginning to look the same. Everyone is talking about it. Clearly, you are either blind, and in denial or we have very different standards

  252. @Ringo: Quoting you : “Apartheid will take at least two generations to give equity and dignity to the African”.Wishful thinking Ringo. Try five generations wrt equity. Wrt dignity, I disagree. And that’s being optimistic. The negative effect of apartheid did not cease on 27 April 1994. @vatikaki: Mabel Jansen speaking the truth??? You cannot be serious. What she said was shocking, disappointing and embarrassing to me as an Afrikaner, and most of all, untrue. Referring to people not agreeing with her as “gemors”???? Come on.

  253. BOG stop your drivel, none of the windows are broken, None!!! I’m 110% sure of what I’m saying are you? The school is in good condition. I challenge you to take a flight to Umtata airport, drive on the R61(which is being upgraded) and go to the school. You will be surprised at what is going on there.

    Your only contribution to this blog is to complain about the ANC “regime” and the demise of SA sports, try something new.

  254. @Umtata: Ní rachaidh mé glacadh le ciníochas i bhfoirm ar bith sa spórt. A ligean ar aontú go n-aontaíonn

  255. @Grasshopper: I too have young kids, 11 and 7. I am also very concerned about their future in SA, with good reason. A quota system is unfair , just does not make any sense. But, do you honestly believe that currently all selections in SA rugby are made on the basis of race? Right now? Don’t you see that some sort of change is required? Perhaps the minister has noother choice. What is your solution to the genuinely strange selections sometimes made, specifically those mentioned by Playa above? @BOG: I have worked in most of South Saharan Africa. I know it well enough. Much of it is really shocking, and I sometimes fear we are going the same way. The signs are there, no doubt. Cannot be ignored. However, all of these countries are still suffering from the legacy of colonialism. That is no excuse for the corruption and other atrocities though. The right, realistic and honest choices must be made, and simply, the lack of realism is just shocking.

  256. @Ringo: The most appropriate response would be FO ! Yet again, a case of not liking the FACTS. Those figures were accepted by Home Affairs, later the UNHCR and international finanancial institutions.I notice that the truth is getting under your skin? Good, given the fact that you are probably a victim of the ANCs failed education policy. These people were all over SA, including the homelands where thousands of professional were like doctors and teachers, many from Ghana, Uganda– There were more than 3 million just from Mozambique and Zim, many illegal, of course. To counter the propaganda which you have been exposed to, I suggest you get yourself the book by Martin Meredith on “50 years after Colonilism” (something like that) to counter your ignorance. A white racist with black children? Brilliant assumption.

  257. @Deon: I put some dumb selections down to a dumb coach, Heyneke Meyer. He didn’t trust any non Bull and non white player. He is gone thank goodness, we have Allister there now so no excuses going forward. Honestly on merit there are enough non white players in the Boks mix. My side now on merit.

    15. Cheslin Kolbe/ Willie on the bench
    14. Siyabonga Senatla/ Ruan Combrinck on the bench
    13. Lionel Mapoe/Juan d Jongh on bench with experience
    12. Damian de Allende
    11. Lwazi Mvovo
    10. Elton Jantjes
    9. Faf de Klerk
    8. Warren Whiteley (Captain) – a must for me and not because I’m a GOB.
    7. Nizaan Carr/ Jaco Kriel on bench
    6. Siya Kolisi
    5. Eben Etzebeth
    4. PSDT/ Lood on bench. Maybe Oupa if fit to cover flank too.
    3. Trevor Nyakane
    2. Adriaan Strauss (VC)/Scarra on bench
    1. Beast/Thomas duToit on bench covering both prop postions

  258. @Deon: See the book which I recommended for Ringo. In fact, everyone in Africa should have a copy as reference. And Meredith is not just some white rightwinger who hates blacks. He is a liberal but very objective. And very critical of apartheid.Sadly, most countries in Africa, were better off under colonialism. I found a copy in my local library- so start there. A5 format, more than 700 pages in small print, so its comprehensive.

  259. @Grasshopper: Agree with most of your team. Not sure about Whiteley though, but he is a great captain.

    Willie le Roux on the bench yes, the bench of some dorpspan in the Karoo.

  260. @Ringo: Some of the most ignorant people I have met, were PhDs If you can gaze into figures all day, it does not mean that you have an understanding of history and international dynamics.

  261. Quotas are a necessary evil….. they mask symptoms instead of treating the alignment of a crambling education system but they are needed becuase of gate keepers in the rugby structurers ….. that is my 10 cents on this matter

  262. @Deon: Who is the best No8 in South Africa then? Remember the key word is ín’….better captain?

  263. Ringo, great to see you’re talking rugby now. If you support quotas you are kicking true development in the teeth. Supporters of quotas are putting a ceiling on true representation. If the quota is 10, 12, 15 that is exactly what you will get. Where does that leave the masses ? The quota window dressing will satisfy the elite, but will it do anything for sport at grassroots level. No. We need to be far more creative in our strategies so that the masses become the bearers of sport future of our country irrespective of their colour. Quotas are a cop out just as the education system which deserts the masses is a cop out. What do we do to solve the problem : we send our kids to model C schools and apply quotas to sport teams because we think we are solving inequality.

  264. @Ringo: Cannot make up my mind on this. The unfairness of the quota system just doesn’t do it for me. And in no way can this level the playing field. How can it? Only development can level playing fields. Assisting the township kid in getting the right training, access to fields and equipment etc. And that’s a socio-economic problem which I cannot see a quota system “fixing” Evil cannot be right, or necessary, ever. What I honestly do believe is that at senior level quotas SHOULD not be necessary, as there are ample black players to reach the 2019 quota now already. Why they are not selected, well…..I firmly believe racism is partly to blame. And I am sad about that. Hope Allistair wil address that problem. At school level, I am not sure, I simply do not know the players well enough.

  265. @Grasshopper: Marx is a good prospect but there are a number of players who have performed well for more than one season in the same position. Frans I agree. Lambie has played how many s18 games since November? Kriel must improve his defence

  266. Bog…most African countries were better of under colonialism? Your stupid BOG! Try telling that to the thousands of children in Congo who had their hands chopped of cause their fathers didn’t meet rubber quotas imposed by belgium

  267. @Deon: hmmm, not sure I agree with that. Watch Warren closely, he has no equal regarding skills in the loose trio. Yes, Duane made that one back pass that help Fourie Dup score, but that was a freak not his normal game. Physicality yes Duane, but running into space, put players away, line-out skills, tackle count, positioning, captaincy….so equal. If he was a Kiwi he would have about 40 caps by now on the flank….

  268. @Umtata: Legacy of Leopoldt and his obsession with African “possessions”. Cruel and inhumane beyond believe. And still revered in Belgium to this day, while at the same time there is an outcry against Hergé’s Tin-Tin in the Congo all over the place. You won’t find it in any bookstore, not that I want it. Doesn’t add up.

  269. Running around never won a test match. Even the most creative coaches acknowledge that test matches are won upfront. The grunt comes upfront and only then can the play be creative. The Lions play creative rugby, but they were badly exposed 10 days ago. All running and little grunt.

  270. @Grasshopper: I will do so, with an open mind. At least I’ll try my best. Was really concerned about his performance against the Canes though.

  271. @Grasshopper: He’s not alone then, quite a few players showed good touch last year. Bummer for the guys who are outstanding right now, think Esterhuizen for instance. We’ve a wealth of talent, who’d be a selector or coach.

  272. @Deon: I think any 8 would battle with a retreating pack. The Lions have lost a few key front row guys, without that go forward they will battle. Redlinghuys and co are vital…

  273. @Deon: I agree with most of your comments but I think Whitley is the man to take the boks into a new era…… dimensions changing stuff heard a rumour the turned down nearly R5 million to move to France to stay try win Super rugby which might take three years and he is fully committed to that cause watch the Lions roar and we should have the most boks coming from the lions and also think guys who are oversees should not be considered for selection and definetly not be the captain

  274. Any Bok team picked this year without Whiteley,Kriel and Redelinghuys is not a proper team. Wont have ball to run with without good tighthead. Kriek and WW simply above any other loosies in SA.

  275. @Umtata: The fact that you focus on an exception like Leopoldt in the Congo, shows that you are scraping the barrel. Im not suggesting that colonialism was perfect, as with apartheid, but what followed, was far worse.Chopping off limbs in several West African countries, has since become a norm, with a few cannibals as “heads of state”, Bokassa from CAR and Idi Amin from Uganda, to mention just two. They ate their opponents !! Many people, even here, have traveled past Umtata High. It may have the occasional flair up, but generally, along with everything else in the Eastern Cape, education is in a shambles. The worst of the worst under the ANC regime.But looking for the cause of the problems being faced? Here are some.Schools are burning, the taps are empty, a new R 4 billion plane is being bought for Skebenga One, while the country is going bankrupt—but the “good story continues—” But not for long. And hear what Mashudu Mukhola says about the challenges: 80% of black males are absent fathers. More than 80% of black mothers are single mothers.The majority of black children need a father figure. And the ANCYL marches on the SARU offices to demand that “transformation” is speeded up? Denial of the real challenges facing SA and sport, is the major problem. And I have seen it demonstrated here, very well too.

  276. @BOG: Help nie jy redeneer met die manne nie “swart logika”is soms net nie logies nie.Die waarheid is rassisties,korrupsie is agv kolonialisme 22jaar na apartheid 50jaar+ na kolonialisme ry ons nog steeds die trein.Een van my werkers het sy “gillfrend” verkrag haar kakkebeen gebreek in die hof het hy dit as sy reg beskou omdat hy haar “support”Jansen haal feite aan en nou is sy n rassis,belaglik.
    Dis miskien weer tyd vir proewe soos van ouds, miskien n 8) 8) wit span teen n swart span of is dit nou te rassisties.

  277. @Everyone Politics is not my favourite subject and Im not very good at it either. Would it not be better that we stop referring to all the players (school or post school) as players and not white or black players? That already is the wrong starting position. Then dont you think we should grade the schools, D, C, B, A. Then to address who is disadvantaged or who is not, the apply provincial representation at a model level. There kids and players of all colours coming through these model type schools. The model represents a level of disadvantage. I dont think colour of your skin should be discused when making selections but rather the model of school you attended. I trying to say that there are coloured kids at private schools who have equal oppotunity to whites, so why make a selection on skin colour forcefully through a policy; but rather give all colour and creed kids a equal oppotunity based of the model they come through. The various model define who is more privillaged than anither, not colour guys…dont whip me but just trying to think of a fair solution to take us forward. We really need go find common ground, otherwise we will forever tear each other apart. :cry:

  278. @Deon:

    What did she say that was untrue? I didn’t really follow it in depth. I just know the saw the punchlines. I laugh at anyone saying it’s not true when they read the news article and it points out what she said, followed by “South Africa has the highest rate of…..”. New Zealand has given me the opportunity to go see how things work in other places, and I can’t think of any other country where a female is in the kind of danger and risk of sex crimes as in Soufh Africa. But if you must stick your head in the sand then be my guest. Even the Middle Easterners who stone women have more respect for them.

    @umtata: I’ll gladly stay here. I know a white mans opinion doesn’t matter in South Africa. And I quote “We are the majority so we do what we want. That’s how democracy works”.

    @grasshopper: that Springbok barometer of yours shows your lack of rugby nous. I mean that in the nicest possible way. Scarra isn’t a hookers backside. Malcolm Marx will fold him any day. The guy isn’t even a sure thing as Stormers hooker. He’s a development project. Given every opportunity in the hope that he will keep the politicians quiet for a minute. In a fair world Marx would be ahead of him by miles.

    Nyakane at tight head another ridiculous call. You’ve got one of the best young tightheads in the world in Frans Malherbe and you wanna replace him with a guy who got dropped recently for behavioural reasons and only fills in at tighthead very occasionally.

    I laughed that you even mentioned Oupa.

    Jaco Kriel behind either Nizaam or Siya on what they’ve delivered so far this year? You gotta be kidding me.

    Seabelo Senatla has speed. It makes him a brilliant sevens player. If he stuck to it he will probably be the greastest 7s winger ever. But his rugby skills are lacking. I can pull out club players here in Wellington who will do the basics better then he will in a 15-mans game. That you want to pick him ahead of Combrinck bothers me.

    Lwazi Mvovo never kicked on and is a poor mans Habana. I’ve still got my fingers crossed for a couple big games from Zas to squeeze his way in to be honest. Mvovo would have a day job had he played rugby in New Zealand.

  279. @kcob: That is quite a good idea, because there are many non white kids at private schools with parents paying their way, they certainly are not disadvantaged. However a boy from Mitchell’s Plain High School certainly is. I agree race shouldn’t even come into the equation at all. I see plenty of white guys begging at traffic lights these days. But quotas make it about race. Rather scrap quotas and focus on helping kids in poor areas. Upgrade facilities, maybe give them free Gym memberships etc. I like the idea of giving each sportsman a mentor, someone willing to really look after the kid by giving life advice, ensuring they studying, working hard etc. Imagine Ashwin Willemse or Breyton Paulse as a mentor to a talented boy at Mitchells Plain High. They don’t have to be celeb players like them, just level headed adults to help out. That will certainly help disadvantaged boys out of their situations…

  280. @kcob: *Standing Ovation*…As my father always says…”Don’t bring me problems, bring me solutions”. Nice one kcob.Now we’re talking. We may not all agree on the current model, but it is the onus of those who do not agree to bring up alternatives. That is the only way that common ground can be reached. The let’s just be equal, and forget all else attitude is not it.

    @Deon: Welcome back old friend, you have been really scarce! Hope you’re doing well.

    @Umtata: Hahaha! Ezinyani bangafuni ukuziva, bazoziva apha kuthi.

  281. @vatikaki: Boet, it’s called picking with sensitivity in mind considering the above debate. We all know Redlinghuys and Malherbe are our best tightheads by far, but Trevor is up there. Not as mobile as the other too. Boet, I know my rugby, coached it for years. However, we have to think how Allister is going to think because like it not he is picking the side going forward. I wouldn’t be surprised if he picks de Jongh as captain…

  282. @CharlesZA: Ja ek was daar…ek het die 0/15 en 1ste span game gekyk…het in n hele paar ou kennisse vasgeloop..maar sommer daar aan die oorkant van die veld gestaan en dinge bekyk.

  283. @vatikaki: “Jaco Kriel behind either Nizaam or Siya on what they’ve delivered so far this year? You gotta be kidding me.”

    Have you watched any Super Rugby at all this year???

  284. @Playa: I think Notshe is showing promise too. Looks a retreaded centre of something, has a good step on him…

  285. @vatikaki: On merit being if there are 3 players of similar ability/merit then the non white player will be picked under Allister. Under Heyneke it was the white player.

  286. @Grasshopper: Only problem I have with that statement about you knowing rugby is that how come you have not heard of Jeremy Ward then?..I first watched him play as an u/16 around 2012 I think and he impressed me then…In 2014 I actually told the agent of the Du Plessis brothers and Frans Steyn to look at him in the game against Paul Roos..he was impressed as well. He was the Captain of the EP u/19 CC squad that won the title last year…or do you only focus on GOB’s?

  287. @kcob: That is the gist of all my comments- that we look at players as players- not as white, black, coloured, Indian—. I have children in my care, white, coloured, black, but I see them as CHILDREN. Not so, the community. When we are in public with them, we are stared at by both white and black

  288. @BoishaaiPa: Nope, I just haven’t heard any hype around him and I have good friends in St Francis with three boys attending Grey PE now. They just go on about the Grey PE No8. Maybe his name just doesn’t stand out, like Kapstok van Greuning or Baksteen Nel or Leolin Zas or something double barreled. I mean who is he playing for now? EP?

  289. Bog…it became a norm because it was introduced by Belgians. There are many cases this was just one.
    The school has maintained a matric passrate of above 95 % for the last 10 years(OBE era) so I don’t think their education is in “shambles” as you put it. Driving past the school? It has a 3m wall on the side next to the N2 so tell me how you saw all the broken windows? Occasional flair up? Lol

    Vati…you left SA for a reason so don’t concern yourself about “quotas” that don’t affect you. The Mabel Jansen jibe shows that your a size 10 spanner

  290. @vatikaki: Let’s agree to disagree. Kriel had a fantastic season in 2015…Carr has come into his own this year, in my view.

  291. @Playa: I think of Queenstown and KWT a bit like Jamaica and Trinidad & Tobago, something in the water there produces quick skillful backline players like those Islands produce sprinters. The Dale side look like a league side, hardly any difference in the size of the backs and forwards, bar the chunky props. They will always battle for ball against big packs but kick to them and they will run you raggered! Glenwood found that out in the their draw with Dale a few years back…

  292. @Playa: Bishops think they run from everywhere, watch Dale. It’s madness, literally no kicking at all. Run from behind the goal line, run……run, run it, run it, run it… matter if you get smashed back by a massive flank or No8, run it……it’s like the players know only one way….run it!!

  293. 15. Willie le Roux (not a big fan of him but currently no other option – never ever the midget Kolbe)
    14. Ruan Combrinck (need to work on his defence)
    13. Jessie Kriel
    12. Damian de Allende (should get his form back soon)
    11. Lwazi Mvovo/Sergeal Peterson
    10. Pat Lambie – VC (don’t like him but nothing better at the moment) If Pollard is back and work on his kicking game he is the best option)
    9. Faf de Klerk (very thin on 9 without Reinach and Hougie)
    8. Duane (sorry but Whiteley reminds me too much of Jannie Breedt and he disappears when the pressure is on).
    7. Jaco Kriel
    6. Chris Cloete – I know this is a roughie but he impressed me
    5. Eben Etzebeth/Lood
    4. PSDT/Lood
    3. Julian Redelinghuis/Lourens Adriaanse
    2. Adriaan Strauss (Captain) /Malcolm Marx on the bench)
    1. Beast/Trevor Nyakane

  294. @Babbelas: Boet Duane has forfeited his opportunity by going to France. I agree with Jake White, foreign based players should be excluded. You can’t have your cake and eat it. Listen to what Kiwi coaches say about Whiteley, listen carefully. He may look a little lean, he doesn’t smash players over, try to run over them…..he uses skill to put other players away. He is quick…..look at the number of tackles he makes, He is a born leader, someone other teams and the media will respect. It’s not only about smashing players and looking like a hero. He is a silent assassin… picked by a previous brute in Ackerman…..he must know something…

  295. @Umtata: Denial of the realities, seem to be the core of most problems in Africa, which explains the state of the continent. And in 20 short yrs, the EC now resembles the rest of Africa. With the decline in standards, how on earth do you fail? Apply in triplicate, 5 yrs in advance? Africa is an absolute disaster and it has been the case since Kwame Nkrumah led Ghana to “independence”in 1959. To single out an exception here and there is not very clever. And what has happened in Zaire, DRC and now Congo, is a lot worse. And did JZ send troops there in the interests of SA? No, to protect his, Mugarbage and “little” cousin, Duduzanes interests in a diamond mine and oil concessions. But back at the ranch, “50 schools torched in Vhembe” and “China buys a colony (Zim) for a mere $40 million” Wake up, the ship is sinking and your coffee is getting cold. And with everything crumbling, the ANCYL marches on the offices of SARU ! Are they real ?

  296. @Playa: Thank you my friend.Good to “see” you too.@vatikaki: If you do not recognize the racial profiling and gross generalization Mabel Janse is guilty of, even only in the “punchline”, well , I am afraid you do not want to see it and actually make an effort not to see it. And to fall into what someone referred to as a “trap”, and that on social media makes me doubt her mental capacity. To state that because “SA has the highest rate of….” simply means that what she said is true, really true, and therefore applies unconditionally to her target group…come on. The Middle-East comparison??? A judge, a High Court judge moreover, judging citizens with that kind and degree of prejudice ingrained in her thought process is a crime in itself and most certainly will not be tolerated in New Zealand. With respect, as long as you maintain the “us and them/ons en hulle” approach it is better for all of us that you remain abroad. You have chosen to emigrate to NZ, refer to yourself as a foreigner, so it is to be expected that you focus on the NZ political environment.

  297. @Playa: If I am not mistaken he was in Zimasa Primary…They had some decent schoolboy teams around 2004-2006. My son played against them and we often had coaching session with them coming out from Langa to the Northern Subs. They have produced a couple of WP u/13 players through the years and most of them are takin in by the Southern Subs schools..I remember a guy nicknamed Lilo who came from Zimasa, but then was drafted into SACS junior…he played WP u/13 Cricket and rugby. Went to SACS a horrible knee injury at u/15 playing against Boishaai. Kept on playing cricket for SACS 1st team.Then only played in his matric year again. I bumped into him at SACS the other day and he told me was playing fullback at Hamiltons but is going to study and try and make the UCT Varcity Cup team. I am waiting in anticipation!

  298. Gimme:
    15 Willie le Roux (I think Gelant will take this jersey when he’s fit. Gelant the best fit but needs a good run before debut)
    14 Sergeal Petersen – Genuine finisher please. JP doesn’t score tries because he seems disinterested, as he always has.
    13 Jesse Kriel
    12 Damian de Allende – But Jan Serfontein if de Allende doesn’t pull himself together really soon.
    11 Leolin Zas – Another real finisher here thanks. Have seen enough to say he’s better then Mvovo and co. Combrinck unlucky, but he a better rugby player then he is a winger.
    10 Elton Jantjies – but this reverts back to Pollard if he’s fit and playing well. Has more to his game then Jantjies, You don’t tell your own Dan Carter to take a hike.
    9 I have really no idea. I’d go with Michael Claassens at the moment to tell the truth.
    8 Warren Whiteley. Not enough separating him and Duane to pick the overseas player.
    7 Used to be overloaded on 7’s. Japan game was a fluke so gimme Pieter Steph du Toit here again.
    6 Jaco Kriel
    5 Lood de Jager
    4 Eben Etzebeth
    3 Frans Malherbe – would even look at him for vice captain and soon to be captain.
    2 Adriaan Strauss
    1 Beast Mtawarira with Trevor on the bench.

  299. @Grasshopper: Whiteley had 4 games for the Boks and did not impress! He is already 28 and I can’t see that he will improve but he might surprise me….

  300. @Babbelas: off the bench under pressure in a turbo reverse losing Bok team. As a starting captain he is different. People in SA don’t give leadership in the team enough thought. The captain is essential…..

  301. @Deon:

    Good luck with all the hand holding. They’ll do the same to the Afrikaans folk that happens to minorities all across Africa and into the Middle East if they get the chance. I’m just thankful most people keep their wits about them.

    Maak my naar dat jy nie wil onderskei nie terwyl hulle ou mense martel oor die kleur van hul vel en omdat hulle op n plaas bly.

    Black academics like that Qwabe fool telling us we are all thieves and should force other whites like my grandparents to give away their farm, but if I were to say that in return they should stop the disproportionate rate of disgusting sexual violence and murder against those people I’ll be labelled a fool. Riiiiiight.

    The ANC government thrives on dividing us. When’s the last time parliament sat and they haven’t had a moan about whites? I’m just making sure people don’t let their guard down.

  302. @vatikaki: Interesting call on PSDT, may work. A bit like Juan Smith, a key ball carrier….he certainly is quick and fit enough for it. I really like Jason Jenkins, maybe he should try that position at the Bulls.

  303. @vatikaki: My fav in parliament is Naledi Pandor, comes across as this really intellectual academic & speaks very well but then she supports indefensible things like Zuma and Nkandla, bloody idiot…

  304. @Grasshopper: Whiteley at best a Super 16 player..when the going gets tough..he against Hurricanes…as with the Boks…you need someone that even in the toughest of times is still visible and makes an impact. Everyone can look good going forward…its how you look when you go backwards that counts and he hasn’t convinced me in that aspect yet.

  305. @BoishaaiPa: Bringing the Lions from not playing Super rugby to being our 2nd best side in Super rugby last year and probably again this. If that isn’t considered a miracle then I don’t know what else he has to do. He has been in the trenches for 3 years, backing his troops, urging them on, instilling belief in the youngsters. You can just see the respect he holds within that squad. The Lions play for the enjoyment of the game, you can see how happy they are to play. They may not all have the same talent or size as others, but they play together as a team. I would rather have Whiteley giving his all than some marauding idiot playing for himself and flying out from Europe to games to earn a buck or two. Whiteley is the man to bring back the pride in Bok rugby and build a cohesive team. Gary Teichmann was never the best No8, but he was a great leader. I see Warren like him but better….

  306. @Grasshopper: Yes you will..cause you are looking through tinted GOB lenses..If you think the Lions success is due to him you know even less that I thought..sure..he played a part, but he was most definitely not instrumental in their success. Go talk to the real men behind the like Altman Ahlers and Kevin de Klerk. They will give him credit for his captaincy and role he played, but it was not by his design. You have way to much of a romantic idea about his captaincy role at the Lions…

  307. @BoishaaiPa: Yes, part of the team. It’s never down to one player or coach. And I don’t care what school he went to, when I see great leadership I like to reward it. He has that. Go and ask your coach Sean about him, see what he says about Warren. Probably say he wasn’t the mist talented player he ever coached but certainly one of the hardest working and best leaders. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion and I’ll have mine. Even the WP loving Mallet is touting Whiteley now, Jake White too….they obviously know nothing about rugby…

  308. @Grasshopper:

    Just depends on how Allister wants to play really. I don’t think we’re ready for a small/more versatile blindside. Don’t want to move away from our strengths too much. But if he wants to throw numbers at the breakdown then Kolisi would probably make sense. I’m with Jake White in believing everyone underestimates the value of a great line-out so give me the height.

    And agreed on Whiteley. Though I wouldn’t make him captain. He has a brilliant attitude and we need more of the Lions players who play with purpose in the team. They look like a squad who knows what they’re doing and Warren is at the forefront. Just think there’s too many question marks and competition to make him captain. If he was the clear cut first choice then yes.

  309. @vatikaki: Well Duane is injured now isn’t he anyway. I can’t see any other No8 standing out, so for now he is our best option and won’t let any team down. If not captain, then who? Malherbe?….no, de Jongh…, Strauss……no, Beast…, PSDT…..maybe in a few years…..I just don’t see the leaders there…

  310. @BoishaaiPa: Strauss couldn’t inspire a dog to eat a piece if fillet. The oke has as much character as a piece of cardboard. You just don’t want a genuinely good guy who attended Glenwood to be a Bok captain, even if it’s in the interim during a rebuilding phase to hand the reigns onto a PSDT or someone like him…simple really…

  311. Adriaan Strauss captain. End of.

    Make it very clear that it’s not a “through to the next WC deal” though.

    Future captaincy options:
    Frans Malherbe – I like this.
    Arno Botha – I had him as this years captain before SR but he been playing terribly. If he were playing well he’d be a good leader.
    Handré Pollard. But I don’t like backs as captain.

  312. @Grasshopper: Well, that is your opinion. Have you ever met Strauss or talked to a player who played with and under him?..Come with facts…I just genuinely want my Bok captain to be the best player in his own position and command respect from his International peers…WW is still not there yet.

  313. @BoishaaiPa: Talked to a player who played with him, but that is that players opinion. I bet if you asked any Kiwi who they thought the best captain and No8 in SA was, they would say WW. Anyway, lets see what happens. Allister won’t take a risk so it will likely be a boring uninspiring choice…

  314. @Grasshopper: Are we doing Lambs or Sheep, or both? It does make a change from 200 beds 400 boys, but most of us are quite versatile, like ou Warren, he could also play at 6, not sure about 9, that makes him a possible 68, 1 short of the full enchilada.

  315. @Grasshopper: Disagree, Teichman was the best nr 8 when he was the captain. Nick Mallet is on record that the greatest mistake he made was to replace Teichman with Skinstad.

    We can’t afford another John Smith or Francois Pienaar situation. You choose your best team and then the best captain in the team! Finish and klaar.

    Agree with BHP, when the going gets tough, WW is missing in action.

  316. @Babbelas: It’s a pity for him he never emigrated to the UK or NZ or Aus as he would be a test veteran by now. Fixation on size in this country…

  317. Looking forward to the drive to Bloem to watch , firstly the Sharks CC side and then the Southern Kings. Last game for the franchise before the preparation starts for the U20 WC. Can’t wait.

  318. @boerboel: Yes, like when the Lions beat the high flying Waratah’s in 2015….those sorts of tough games hey? You see it’s not all about being seen, that is where all you pundits have it wrong. Schalk Burger looks like he is doing a lot, but isn’t really. The funniest stat I saw on Schalk was 17 carriers 6 meters made…shows he is going backwards most the time…

  319. 2015 Super Rugby stats;

    8. Warren Whiteley (Lions) – Whiteley has been a huge player for an improved Lions side this season. The back rower has made more tackles than any other player while maintaining an incredible 97% success rate, missing just six of 194 attempted hits. He has also won 13 turnovers for his side and interestingly had made the most passes of any forward this season, which have led to three try assists.

  320. @BoishaaiPa: OK, so if you are the best in Super rugby you not good enough for test rugby? If that was the equation we wouldn’t have a Bok team…

  321. @BoishaaiPa: Ah so a bit like your top 20 then, stats mean nothing? Warren is light years ahead of any other loosie in SA with regards to skills, lines to run, ball protection etc….but you see the untrained eye won’t see that…

  322. @Buffel: You must be incredibly proud of your lad. From the first time I saw him play I thought higher honours would follow.

    Enjoy every moment and convey our support and best wishes.

  323. aahh great!!! back to rugby

    A Strauss for Bok captain!!! tried and tested.

    WW to be one of the loosies but definitely not Captain.

    @BoishaaiPa: who would you choose as you VC?

    Also interested to see who AC chooses at no.9

  324. @BoishaaiPa: Nope, not me. A friend of mine who coaches at a high level points these things out to me. It’s frightening the detail these analysts go into. I would love to know what Rassie thinks..

  325. @Grasshopper: WW will at most be an interim player that holds a position warm until a better player comes along. He won’t be a long playing member of any Springbok squad because of this. He is currently having his moment in the sun and should crab it as the better 8th men are all playing overseas.

  326. @BoishaaiPa: Well from being a Sharks discard to being the Lions captain, winning Currie Cups, being picked for the Boks and being touted as a potential Bok captain I give him huge praise. And I’ll state it again, it doesn’t matter if he went to Glenwood. I just think he is a genuine bloke, excellent player and great team man. These are the things that count for me..

  327. @Umtata: VC should have some experience at Bok level too…and should also be able to hold down his own position. So it will depend mostly on what the team looks like to decide who will be VC. To be honest, the only 9 that showed some spark so far is Faf…We have been spoiled with first Joost and then Fourie over a period of time and I still think that we are very short of talent at 9 at the moment. There is some very good youngsters coming up through the ranks, but it will take another 2/3 years for them to get to that level. ..If you think about it really…If I were a coach I would love to be able to pick from players outside SA!

  328. @Grasshopper: One Currie Cup..Not Cups!..Also losing Captain in one of them!..But as I said..He is a good S18 player and he is doing well…but that is about his highest level. Dont doubt for one minute he is not a great bloke. but his personality is not in discussion here…its his ability at a specific level. There he has not proven himself yet.

  329. @BoishaaiPa: Well, I think he deserves a start to give him that chance, not 3 mins off the bench. Ireland would be a good chance. I mean they chucked in Koch after 3 good performances at Super Rugby level. This bloke is a trojan! How he stays injury free (touch wood) at his size, god only knows…

  330. I wonder why no-one mentions Franco Mostert, the Lions lock, as a candidate for Bok colours. I honestly believe he is currently the best lock in Super Rugby. Since last year , a great work rate and not scared to put his body on the line for his team. Pieter-Stef, Lood and Etzebeth have so far not consistantly produced the form that we know they are capable of. Pieter-Stef was average last year for the Sharks and so far this year only had 2 good outings fot the Stormers . Lood also battling this year in a struggling Cheetahs side and Eben dogged by a number of injuries.

  331. @Grasshopper: You see what happens when you cry wolf too often. :lol: I actually think his work ethic and attitude is right up there with Gary T and he definitely has that humble leadership appeal which has worked well for the Lions. He did go missing in the Hurricanes game but then a few others also fell in the same hole. It was amazing how one weak link at tighthead could cripple the confidence of the team. At that level and definitely higher then can be no passengers. Some here have maybe written him off prematurely. Let us sit back and let the picture unfold. Another player who has caught my eye is the center from the Cheetahs. ( Venter I think). He is also the captain and so can add value to the leadership core.

  332. @Kattes-Strofes: Agree with you, he is a proper workhorse! I think another huge loss to SA rugby was Wiehahn Herbst, especially when we need good tightheads…

  333. @star: Agreed, if he doesn’t make it now in his prime then that’s it. Francois Venter I like too…

  334. @Grasshopper: Classic from our mate Hopper. Always has some mate who is a coach/selector/doorman. Are you still promoting Kyle “woman beater” Cooper to be Bok hooker? The Sharks have realised his limitations and put Franco Marais ahead of him. Let Whiteley start against the Irish and see if he has the ability to step up at the international level.

  335. @Bwana: Yes, Bwana that is correct. Coaches normally know other coaches. I won’t disclose his name on this blog. I would never condone Kyle’s personal behaviour, nothing to do with me or his old school, but he is improving and should take over from Marais soon. I could be quite scathing on some ex College players but won’t go that low…

  336. Allister will do what all coaches do – fall back on experienced test players. So forget about outsiders at 15, 14,13,12,11, 1,2,3,4,5. Only new players will come due to injuries.

  337. @Grasshopper: Am I having a go at Glenwood? I am just commenting on his obvious lack of class and general decorum. Once again you resort to gutter tactics. Why bring up College? So puerile it is scary

  338. @Grasshopper: On form he probably deserves a start, but just to keep the spot warm until a better players comes along or back from overseas…With him at 8th man at test level I will keep feeling “uncomfortable”…like a guy who pitches up at a dogfight with a Jack know he’s got heart and lot of fight…but eventually the big dogs are going to kill him!

  339. @Bwana: No, but you know Kyle is an OB. No gutter tactics, did I say anything? Puerile is a big word for you…I prefer juvenile…

  340. @BoishaaiPa: Let me guess those big dogs will come from the Stormers or Bulls? Pierre Spies had it all, except brains and skills…

  341. @Grasshopper: If Kyle Cooper had gone to College, wait he did for 2 days, I would be as scathing. Where in my statement did I mention Glenwood? Not once. Kyle Cooper is an average rugby player. That is the gist of my argument. His lack of class off the field does not come into my assessment of his abilities. Puerile/Juvenile/Infantile all the same meaning.

  342. Last week, I had a very nice discussion with Pieter Jooste, who was recently appointed by SA Rugby as the conveynor of the selectors of national sides. Mr. Jooste is the only so-called independant selector. He mentioned that all the Super coaches will have an input in the selection of the Bok team. I mentioned to him that, it will be a given, that each team,s coach, will obviously promote his own players. Pieter and myself was for many years coleagues in selecting various teams for WP. Our experience was that if you ask for nominations from clubs, every club thinks that their player is the best. He agreed with me on that fact. However, he was open for the decision taken by SA Rugby, and that they will still decide on the working details.
    I did not mention this to him, but afterwards thought that the only way out of such a tricky situasion, will be to ask the various coaches to select a side, which does not contain any of his own players. After tallying the combined votes, the guys getting the most votes will then surely be a very strong candidate.
    It will be very interesting to see what the various coaches comes up with, don,t you think?

  343. @Deon – I must commend you with the opinion expressed at 403 regarding @vatikaki. As a follow boys higher it is sad to read his comments and his jersey should be removed as he is an insult to my old school. South Africa has so much potential and goodwill, many challenges but people like him will drove us further apart and confirm stereotypes.

  344. @Monte Bello 84: When you criticise a person, you should give your reasons for doing so. One can call another an arsehole- thats his right, but just motivate.

  345. @BOG: One might say variety has provided enough reason.You don’t see that then that’s fine.Let’s move on

  346. @Playa: Exactly- variety. I always say that GCB has produced Roby Leibrandt on the one extreme and Bram Fischer on the other- and every conceivable opinion between those extremes. Im sure that Vatkakis opinion is shared by many of his old boys, while the attitude of Monte Bello 84 might be seen as yellow and cowardly by others. That is variety and free thought.

  347. @BoishaaiPa: Do you still think Strauss and Malherbe are future captains? I saw absolutely nothing from either to say they can motivate their teams….Bulls and Stormers were woeful!

  348. @BOG: A little consistency would be nice.Here you are asking for people to give reasons for why they lable others and yet not a single reason was provided by you for why you labelled these boys as quotas.But I’ll leave you be Oom.

  349. @Playa: Any person of “colour” will be regarded as a quota as long as there are laws/regulations/rules prescribing to the selectors. They define the quotas, not me. And by that Im not saying that some or even most, dont deserve to be there. Stop the interference and and meddling and quotas will stop- simple.

  350. @BOG: Exactly, whilst that term officially exists there will always be doubt. Once it’s removed and merit used then no issues. That is in essence the key point for all of your and my posts. Take the racial segregation away and then we talk just about players…

  351. Now the Lions are showing us what we capable of. Yes, the Blues are the poorest of the NZ teams but that is our blueprint. Now if any watched Whiteley they would have seen what he does. The last try for Mapoe was set up by Whiteley’s drive on the ball. Redlinghuys, Marx, Mostert, Kriel, Jantjes & Mapoe all brillant. Whiteley doing what a captain should do, lead from the front and instill belief in his troops….

  352. @Grasshopper: You are right, Hopper! Warren was very good, as well as the others mentioned by you.And I have to say again! Franco Mostert is playing fantastic rugby. Wins all his lineouts, carries ball strongly, clean out rucks with force, and defends brilliantly. I would love to see his stats, compared to other locks. He is almost like an extra loose forward, after doing his normal donkey work. And I still see and hear no-one mentioning him seriously as a Bok contender. Am I missing something? Good to hear that Lood also had a great game for the Cheetahs.
    My Stormers team hugely dissapointing. Eina!!

  353. @Kattes-Strofes: look Whiteley isn’t the best No8 I’ve ever seen, but so wasn’t Teichmann. Pienaar & Krige were OK too. But all three were inspirational leaders. I think Warren can contribute to the Boks in some form. He should be in the squad at least. Mostert is banging the door down, but again fixation with size might be his downfall. He isn’t the biggest lock out there. Mapoe & Jantjes must start for the Boks. Mapoe & de Allende could form a lethal centre pairing with Francois Venter backing them up. Where is Harold Vorster? Thought he was really good last year.

  354. Franco is unfortunate that we’ve sort of invested in the other 3 (Etzebeth, Lood & PSdT). If all were fair, he’d be picked ahead of Etzebeth. But him going overseas makes that very unlikely.

    @Monte Bello 84:

    If you think I’m going to feel bad in any way think again. I’ll settle when I see the Afrikaners given their rightful due’s in the country they helped build up. Rather than being threatened with land evictions, having their language attacked at schools and universities, excluded from the work force, excluded from sports teams, attacked verbally in parliament and being murdered at incredible rates on their farms. Having our history rewritten and destroyed by Africans. How long before they march on the Voortrekker monument? If they want to provoke and start something, they better be prepared to be on the losing end. I’m rightfully angry. I need not apologise for that so you can shove it.

  355. @Playa

    Did you watch Super rugby this weekend?

    Kolisi & Carr ahead of Kriel seems even more laughable now.

  356. @vatikaki: sê en dink net wat jy wil. Ek hoef nie noodwendig met jou saam te stem nie.
    Monte Bello 84 , wie is jy om te besluit wie is in en wie is uit?
    Speel die bal. los die man.
    Diversiteit, klasverskille, taalverskille, geloofsverskille en kultuurverskille is so eie aan BH. Respectfully agree to disagree, gentlemen.

  357. @vatikaki – You are entitled to your opinions. I would prefer that you submit them (political) under a neutral jersey, and not a Boys High jersey. Both you and Bog have valid points however certain racist statements which have clearly upset other bloggers cannot be condone. For example @Bog thread 307 – in which he said apartheid was not so bad compared to other regimes !

    @Losbal Boys High caters for different viewpoints, however and I do not speak on behalf of them, but as an Old Boy I must speak out when racist statements are made and by implication be perceived that is the viewpoint shared by other old boys as alluded by @Bog in a previous thread 476.

    The question therefore needed to be asked when racist statements are being aired in a specific school jersey, the perceived silence from other school bloggers from the same school, do they condone and approve of it ?
    For example in the case of @Bog and @vatikaki – the silence from the respective schools bloggers were deafening. When the respective schoolboys , parents and old boys read this site and read racist comments being made in a Boys High or Grey jersey is it not by implication being perceived as a viewpoint from that school ?

    What is the difference in people at a party enjoying a racist’s joke and not say a thing and bloggers on this site staying silent ?

  358. @Outside Looking In: agree fully on Mapoe and Jantjies to be in squad. Mapoe has had form for some time now, he deserves more than just a shot. Jantjies has also proven himself this season (after hot & cold in past). Kolbe should be in 7’s squad.

  359. @Monte Bello 84: Quite frankly, I dont think you have the faintest idea what racism is. And yes, I can confirm again, that all people in SA at the height of apartheid was more free than more than half of the world. That is an empirical fact. Just the Soviet Union alone under Stalin, massacred 50 million, under Mao in China, 40 million. In Africa, just as bad. Why on earth do YOU think that more than 7 million people from Africa chose to live in SA under apartheid? Thankfully , at GCB, we were taught to think independently, and my opinion expressed here has nothing to do with my old school. But what is absolutely clear, is that you have NO idea about politics or historical truths. Dont present yourself here as someone concerned about others. The impression, is exactly the opposite. Some may even see you as lacking moral fibre and being a yellow bellied coward

  360. @BOG: You are rather intolerant and condescending for a person who was taught to think independently. How you managed to summarise @Monte Bello 84’s character just from his disagreement with certain remarks is beyond me.

  361. @Playa: He was clearly implying that Vatikakki and I are racists, while its exactly the opposite. And you cant see that??? I have, from the outset, criticised the selection process as being blatantly racist and for him to try and reverse the argument, is laughable. As I pointed out, I question his courage to speak out against the injustices of racism in sport. Fact is that I view people with his opinions, as being racist- it cuts both ways and neither is justifiable.

  362. @BOG: I promised myself that I would not participate in politics on the blog anymore, but I am perplexed as to why Montebello may be considered lacking moral fibre by “some”. Standing up to racism and prejudice is anything but lacking moral fibre. It takes guts, not to be expected from a yellowbelly.

    His initial post was in part directed at someone else for making racist comments, a fact which cannot be denied, being racism as in the negative profiling stereotyping of another race. That’s nothing else than racism. Racism can never be condoned, as you have stated often during the years I have followed this blog. Apparently, you have always felt this way. Montebello’s one point was that condoning a judge (or anyone else for that matter), like Vatikaki did, being prejudiced, is not acceptable. Then Vatikaki described those who do not agree as “gemors”/garbage. This should be enough to make a person like Montebello feel uncomfortable, and congrats to him for stating that he does not agree. Few cared to tell Vatikaki that he must have tolerance for the opinions of others, not calling them gemors for their opinions etc. Some attacked Montebello though. Strange, very strange, intolerance for the opinion of others is ok for some, but not all.

    Staring ourselves blind at the excesses of the Trotskyists, Mao, the Gulag problem,black Africans preferring to stay in SA rather than the rest of Africa,believing or at least appearing to believe the atrocities in other countries make the disgrace and injustices of apartheid and racial profiling ok, is not what I expected from you. Perhaps I misunderstand exactly what you mean. I may be entirely wrong.

    I care about the human rights violations in other countries, and see a lesson it for us all, which must be taken seriously. Genocide is indeed a form of racism. However, right now we should address our own problems, or at least, make an attempt to do so. But for a few Western Nations to sit at the Berlin Convention, deciding which African country belongs to whom, as in possession, where the borders will be etc, did not really help Africa’s case either. How can we ignore this? We must not ignore the excesses and crimes of the current government either, I agree. Corruption and rampant crime are enemies that cannot be ignored, but cannot be used to condone our own past either.

    Ignoring, forgetting, and justifying apartheid/racism is not productive, and immoral. Justifying one form of racism in the light of another form of racism by Vatikaki, was a problem to Montebello. Not realising and admitting what spending R10 for the education of every white child in the old SA (previously more) in relation to R1,00 per black child, did not help leveling the playing field, is not realistic.

    Vatikaki mentioning Qwabe statement regarding land being stolen by whites, as well as the risk of farms being expropriated by the government is problematic in a way too. I do not support land grabs etc. I think Qwabe is a dangerous racist. But does that make him entirely incorrect? Is Malema entirely incorrect? Is there absolutely no grain truth in what they believe? Some of us conveniently choose to ignore the effects of the Native Land Act 1913. Land was indeed stolen, nothing else, confiscated in a worse fashion than what Mugabe ever did. Black people, by Law, being turned into low paid labourers on land they previously owned, many opting to flee to Bechuanaland. Yes, its in the past, but we cannot ignore the effects we still feel today, and it must be addressed. I have no solution for these problems we face though, but I do know that racism by any race, as well ass ignorance of our past, by any race, is not an option.

    In short, I admire Montebello for his moral fibre.

  363. @BOG: I’m sorry but this comment is wrong on all levels. In essence, you’re implying that life was better under apartheid. I’d seriously love to know which rock you were living under during that time that shielded you from all those injustices. What happened in South Africa cannot be compared to what happened in China and the USSR. Yes the repression was large-scale and involved butchering of unimaginable proportions, some of which we’ll never know the proper extent.
    Departure point here is that oppression during apartheid was based on race and those effects are visible today. I don’t know how old you are but you’re in serious need of an history lesson in terms of the large scale detrimental effect apartheid had on black South Africans.
    You can draw your comparisons till the cows come home but you’ll never have parents and grandparents who were denied basic rights to education and services because of the colour of their skin. There have been worse human rights atrocities around the world but what we saw in South Africa and Zimbabwe was a special and sad case because of minority groups that saw fit to see themselves as superior and use legislation to achieve their ways. Apartheid South Africa was a bastion of white superiority that was unjustly supported by the West despite the “sanctions” that were belatedly put in place.
    After all, it’s not said but the current government is still paying of apartheid debt.
    You also need to part ways with playing the man and attack the content of their debate. Calling people “yellow-bellied” is a reflection of self and your inability to hold counsel in a rational debate. If you have children, I hope you haven’t fed them you misguided view of our society. If that’s so, I feel for them.

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