Hilton College won’t be playing rugby against Glenwood in 2015. Hilton has provided Glenwood with their reasons for the decision.
Here are statements from the headmasters of both schools:
Hilton:
Hilton College has, with a heavy heart, decided to discontinue all rugby fixtures against Glenwood for the foreseeable future. The simple reason for this decision is that Glenwood’s fairly recent strategy has, in our firm opinion, now moved them into a different league. Apart from the increased risk of injury, which is associated with such mismatches, we see no educational value (for any of the players) in playing matches where the contest is decidedly one-sided.
I have spoken openly to the Headmaster of Glenwood about this and have made it clear that these are the only reasons for our decision. This is not a protest and there is no animosity between the two schools. Hilton College would welcome, should Glenwood so choose, continuing to play fixtures against them in other sports.
Glenwood:
We are obviously disappointed that Hilton will not be playing Rugby against us in 2015. They have their reasons and they have communicated their reasons to us…
They are our oldest fixture – 1924 I think – and so we are sad when a tradition such as this comes to an end. Hopefully they will see themselves clear again soon to rejoin our fixture list.
@Grasshopper: I don’t think Hilton have a problem getting spanked by st Davids but everybody has a problem getting spanked by a SA Barbarians side.
@Gungets Tuft:
The Sharks weren’t so professional this last Friday
@Gungets Tuft: I saw Hilton got spanked by St Davids I think in tennis, wonder if they going to withdraw from that fixture…
@Springkahn: WP should definitely withdraw from the S15 – ridiculous playing against other franchises that have taken a “professional” approach.
@GreenBlooded: Having a look at the WP Super 15 starting XV this years I am sure Alistair Coetzee will make sure his guys are better conditioned for next year (LOL) He had 15 starting members all injured? Not sure injuries are a result of lack of conditioning?
Hi guys: Is this still about Hilton pulling the plug? You just get me excited when you post here, but then I don’t read about Hilton. Something new on the issue?
@Roger: Yep, I like Brink, had a great junior world cup. Hard as nails. HM is smoking some huge greens at the moment with his pensioners club, come on man! Girth-row, Schalk Britz, Schalk Burger, Matfield, Bakkies, Ruan Pienaar, Jannie etc…..our average age in the squad must be 30 something….Scarra isn’t bad, but far too small to be a Bok hooker. Tiaan Liebenberg is another ‘has-been’. Kyle is the future, just needs some extra practice with John Smit. I like Marx too, but he should go back to flank, he seems too tall for a hooker and is not being utilised stuck in the front row…
@Grasshopper: HM seems to favour Scarra, Schalk Britz and Tiaan Liebenberg ahead of Cooper. Marx – give him time – he has all the physical attributes but line out throwing needs work. He only converted to hooker in 2011. Personally I think Kyle Brink could be KES’s next Bok (injuries aside) – great player. We could also see Wandile Mjekevu turning out for France pretty soon……
@Pedantic: Under severe duress I run a Windows OS and Microsoft Office on my laptop. My laptop spends most of it’s time plugged into some proprietary device or another, either PLC type hardware or my test instruments which all run on ONLY windows and reports in ONLY MS Excel. Otherwise I would give Bill Gates the middle finger as well and run a Linux OS (Ubuntu is great) with Open Office.
But that’s enough about that – soon the Nazi Topic Monitor is going to be breathing down my neck.
PS: Nothing in my Latin Phrasebook to cover this……
Looks like there are a lot more schools crossing each other off the fixtures list.
http://www.mycomlink.co.za/posting.php?i=13508
@GreenBlooded: Haha, I didn’t ask for a i-Anything review. So I guess you’re using Ubuntu or Debian on your PC ? Hoc falso!
@GreenBlooded: et omnia, blando nomine inductus mortua
@Pedantic: iPhone? I will never own an i-anything. Very anti the whole closed source / vendor lock in system. Steve Jobs was a master visionary with the Apple Products, but he was a commercial scallywag of the worst kind. However, enough on that – de mortuis nil nisi bonum as they say………
@Playa: His name was removed from the honours board shortly after he was found out.
@Grasshopper:He is an Old Dalian by virtue of having walked the corridors in the uniform,and joined the ODU.Do we claim him as a product of the school?No.You won’t see him on the honours board of international reps.
I’d be interested in how Siya Tom is labelled at the Green Machine headquarters?
@GreenBlooded: What the hell with all the latin ? Is it a new app you have on your iPhone ?
I need google translate to understand half your messages these days
@Roger: Who? Scarra? Marx?…..no chance. Kyle is a beast, a ‘pure’ hooker strong in the scrum. He will improve his throwing and will make it, I’m sure of it. An injury to Adriaan or Bizzie and he’ll be called up….
@GreenBlooded: I actually knew Darryl, he was a bright spark……but that bright to be Dux, not sure….I went to Van Riebeeck Park before being ‘bought’ by Brighton Beach…
@GreenBlooded: Ask Sparks what he thinks of bigger players……
@Springkahn: Your anecdote regarding the MHS boy is a shocker. I now see where your comments are coming from. Clearly this boy’s priorities were completely wrong. This guy needed guidance. Where was it? Complicit perhaps?
@Springkahn: Don’t agree. Injuries are a function of lack of conditioning, match fitness and most importantly contact skills. There are plenty of David and Goliath tackles where Goliath comes second so I don’t think it’s a pure function of Newtonian physics. I agree that a bigger player is more likely to injure a badly coached player than a smaller player – but the problem still rests with the victim – not the big player who has conditioned himself and has been well coached.
@Pedantic: Ahhhh – you figured me out. Mea Culpa.
@kosie: Jst one final point, before I go and find an ambulance to chase – when I was in cubicle world, and interviewing staff, I was always more inclined to hire a persona who had captained a sports team than one who was a prefect that didn’t play sport – even a head boy who didn’t play sport. Captains have been tested under fire, had to lead and makes decisions on their own. I didn’t care what team – but I always asked about sport and leadership.
@Pedantic: I will consider myself chased to the nearest flyover ..
@Springkahn: I’m sure that there are many examples of kids, and their support structures, making poor judgement calls as in the case that you refer to. I don’t know that you can blame the current environment for his obsession with rugby. I’d be surprised if the MHS coaching structure were encouraging him in pursuit of a rugby career if he didn’t have what it took to at least take the next step – a junior contract. That leaves the parents who should take primary responsibility for a poor and possibly life changing decision.
I have several concerns about how schoolboy rugby is evolving but, notwithstanding the odd poor choice made by individuals, at the moment this issue is not one of them.
I’d be far more concerned about the attrition rate that takes place through the early stages of a pro career at U19 & U21 level where three – four years are spent mostly with very little tertiary educational progress and around a 90% drop out rate. These are young men who have ticked all the boxes to having a shot at least at the pro game and I’m aware of examples who achieved straight A’s at school but have been unable to make any academic progress since. Even the very few who make it at the highest or best remunerated, level need to have a something to fall back on when their short careers are over. I have to think that a College football type intermediate structure, despite its flaws, would be healthier.
@meadows: I see a lot of this term “living vicariously through their children” these days.
From some of the comments here it would seem many old boys are living vicariously through their schools’ 1st XV!
Just saying …
@Springkahn: I hear your argument but let me give you another perspective.
I do not have figures for KZN but I can say that in the Pretoria area the kids that partake in sporting activities are on average also the kids that achieve academically.
If we look at the averages of all schools you will find the majority of kids fall in the 70% range of good scholars. If a kid falls in the 15% poor scholar range and plays rugby or any sport he is likely to struggle academically. If a kid falls in the 15 % excellent achievers and plays sport he is still a high achiever.
I think what is important is to keep a balanced view on all school activities. You can play sport at the highest level and produce good results as long as the focus is right. For example, if you need to study for exams, extra time must be put in to study at the expense of sport, so too extra time must be put in to achieve a sporting goal.
The trick is to get the timing right for each. I can give you numerous examples where the kids, with the help of the schools and coaches/ teachers, get the focus of the activity right.
You are right when you say that a very small percentage of schoolboys end up playing after school. The point is, sport and more specifically a team sport like rugby moulds a kid and teaches the average kid to prioritise their time. Where we should spend a lot more effort is in conveying the balance or when to juggle what.
In your work you also juggle certain tasks and they somehow all get done. Not all at the same time.
@Gungets Tuft: Probably one of the best posts I have seen on this blog in a long time – thanks for that!
Now gungets tuft and do some work
@Springkahn: Boksmart only record catastrophic head and neck injuries
@Springkahn: That’s a serious stat, very concerning. When you consider that this was a “small” fixture with probably about 20 teams, maybe less? Imagine the big ones such as PRG vs GCB.
And another sobering note – http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Players-fund-supports-WP-lock-20140903
A little stat worth having in mind that may bring a little perspective as to how the increased pressure on performance on rugby is having an effect on our beautiful game. In the last fixture MHS Kearsney fixture, Kearsney had 75 kids either concussed or on the sidelines with injury. 75 kids that is 5 full teams of just injuries. Think back a few decades and this was certainly not the case. there were injuries but they were negligable. Bigger kids, bigger collisions more injuries. sad but true
@meadows: @meadows: Hi Meadows, I see the shirt and I draw anecdotal evidence from your school. I am only focussed on the top of each age group and witness the drive to play “A” team or 1st XV I don’t believe it to be a real issue with those playing in 4ths and 5ths. A MHS kid obsessed with rugby last year was focussed on making the first team at all costs. He dropped to maths lit as he was not cutting it in the classroom, but put rugby before his academics. He spent hours in the gym according to classmates. He could not get into UCT as a result of his maths standard and has subsequently given up rugby as there is no pressure to continue post school. How different could this kids life have been? If he had backed off and applied his mind to maths and got into the faculty of his choice at UCT? One swallow does not make a summer but this is evidence of how wrong schools, coaches and parents can get it. This is an extreme example, I know, but it is a sign of everything that can be wrong with this over fixation at school boy rugby. How many other kids are there that have similar experiences. That is my point. Some will get it right but many won’t and they have to live with the consequences long after the school and coach have forgotten about them. It is not all wrong but these kids are easily influenced and the more the school, websites, television coverage, parents old boys build them up, they more they will lose perspective and the above example becomes more common place. That is what we have to protect against.
@meadows: I suppose I am a littl jaundiced by more recent experience on the matric to tertiary study thing as well. I seriously now think that kids should do just enough to get the matric pass they require for entracne to the course of their choice. If you want to study medicine or veterinary, then by all means go your gums for a 8 x A symbol pass. You won’t use most of that knowledge for you course, but the entrance requirement makes it necessary. What I am saying is that I have seen kids drive themselves insane studying as well, chasing this 9-A, 95% aggregate, then ending up in a class with kids that got 4-A’s, and they all struggle alike at the new way of studying.
These are the years – this is when the kids must do whatever wakes them up in the morning, they will never (now and at Varsity) be more free to just enjoy each day. If they want to gym, play rugby and jol, go for it, these times will surely pass.
All that said – Dads and Moms – make sure it is their own life they are living, and dream they are chasing. Enable, assist, guide, then get out of the way. No matter what they achieve it’s not going to patch the holes in your own school days, or your life now.
Now … work. The “enable” part comes at a price … I have cars to tow.
@Springkahn: Your fundamental premise seems to be that boys, who have no prospect of a career in rugby, are spending an inordinate proportion of their time focused on rugby at the expense of studies and that this is a direct consequence of the increasing levels of interest, even obsession, fueled by the media and driven by parents, teachers and old Boys.
You rely on anecdotal evidence in concluding that academic performance is being compromised by pressure to invest a disproportionate time in rugby.
Let’s accept that schoolboy rugby has an increasingly obsessive following that at times borders on the unhealthy. Certainly the pressure put on kids by parents living vicariously through their children is plain to see. I would argue that that is a personality defect and you will find that little dynamic being played out at the side of swimming pools, hockey fields, tennis courts and golf courses as well as any number of other sporting venues. Obsession and the resulting undue pressure applied on children is clearly unhealthy.
Interest in school sport has always been there. I’m sure that the Paarl derby attracted as many spectators decades ago as it does now. High school football in the US also has an almost fanatical following and that’s before getting on to “amateur’ College football with its 100 000 seat stadia.
What has changed, across all aspects of life, and affects school sport specifically, is access to information through televised games, dedicated websites, ease of communication and increased travel. You could be reading match reports and comment on your alma mater’s weekend game on your mobile phone at an airport in Kazakhstan. Just over 20 years ago unless you happened to read the school sports results in the Sunday papers you wouldn’t have had a clue how your old school was doing year on year and certainly not how that compared to the results of some school in another province that you hadn’t heard of.
You have concluded that this media interest fuels an obsession on the part of parents, schoolteachers and coaches that results directly in a disproportionate number of kids who have no prospect of being professional sportsman sacrificing their studies and other interests to play rugby.
I think that’s a fallacy.
I very much doubt that many of the youngsters who are turning out for the C team every Saturday, and thoroughly enjoying doing so, are foregoing their studies to push weights furiously in the vain hope of a pro rugby future. I also doubt that very many of the 1st XV at most schools realistically harbour such aspirations unless they have been part of the provincial set ups through the age groups.
I agree that even those who do have what may seem reasonable prospects at that time are not going to make it and had better have a Plan B in place.
The vast majority of boys are focused on doing as well as they can in their sport of choice, hopefully getting a decent pass, and moving on to further their studies and possibly continue to play a bit of club or Varsity sport.
@Springkahn: Just define “best prepared”. You say “it is whether the boys involved are best prepared for their future lives when they have spent an in ordinate amount of time focussed on rugby”.
1. What is an inordinate time. If all they need is 1.5 hours independent study time, and 5 hours schoolwork a day to get the results needed to get into their chosen field at varsity/tech/whatever, then that enough. This is shown by matric results. Non-sportsmen do not necessarily spend any more time studying, they do X-Box, watch TV, whatever, top sportsmen are more focussed on their sports development. You make it sound like a zero sum game, but it isn’t. It might be snag-and-release optional time they are sacrificing. That is why I say – show the evidence in the matric results – otherwise it is speculation which is not helpful.
Bigger hits – logic that boys will get hurt?? Well, I am not so sure of that in every case. As GB says, there are records. If your hypothesis (not conclusion) is correct then the stats will show it. The issue might just be about preparation – so what Hilton is actually saying is that they lack the ability to prepare their boys to the level required by the modern game.
@star: Boys have been knocked out for years. My son was flattened 3 years ago in his 1-match return to rugby. Not by a bigger kid, but deliberately kneed in the head by a player in a maul. It doesn’t take a 100kg plus player to knock you out, just a bad tackle.
Are kids shying off in the game, because of bigger, better prepared kids – quite probably – if a whole school can do it, why not an individual.
Bottom line – if Hilton have evidence of the increased injury rate against Glenwood, they must haal uit an wys, because THAT is useful information. Until then I will regard their stance as a protest against Glenwood. Hilton was not competitive this year – last year they were very competitive. Has so much changed in a year with regards to Glenwood???
Look, I know I am provoking a bit, and naturally the laws of physics have some influence, but would still like some evidence, and then want to know why it is only aimed against Glenwood. Why not against Kearsney last year when they had such a great BIG team, or is it just because Hilton also had their well conditioned big guys last year. Man on man, how did Glenwood stack up against Hilton this year in the size stakes – let’s start there and move on?
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Tortured-pupil-claims-R25m-20140903
interesting
@Grasshopper: Whitely – great player – deserves his call up – and a likely lad to boot – are you sure he wasn’t poached from Westville
Not with you on Kyle Cooper though – plenty rakes ahead of him in the queue
According to Boksmart, all rugby injuries should be recorded by the medics on duty and a match report should be logged with Boksmart. These get sent through and are logged in an annual report – 2013’s is available at this link
http://images.supersport.com/content/Website%20Serious%20injury%20table%20updated%20January%202014.pdf
I am not sure whether they would be prepared to drill them down. When I attended the Boksmart Medic training they did tell us that they monitor the prevalence of injuries in all teams. While there are still way too many serious injuries, it is good to see the BokSmart is making a difference.
@Gungets Tuft: ;Hi I see you are missing the point and perhaps I am not articulating it well enough. It is not whether GW has good academic results it is whether the boys involved are best prepared for their future lives when they have spent an in ordinate amount of time focussed on rugby. This is not about only rugby focussed schools it is a general observation on any kid over fixated with school sport. Only a very small percentage may pursue rugby as a career. The rest have to go and fight their way around in the real world. Could those boys have achieved better results if so much of their time and focus was not on rugby. My guess is yes. The more time you spend on anything, your experience will grow and you will become better. Standard sport philosophy but equally applicable to accounting.
The injuries question is just logic. The bigger the hits, the more likely the chance of injury, Full stop. Specialised rugby programs produce superior athletes who will be bigger, stronger and fitter than those not involved in a specialised conditioning program, This was the reason many schools stopped playing Old Boys games against the first teams, The old boys were bigger and stronger and there were injuries. I don’t think it is a difficult concept. That is were we are headed and I am not sure that parents of the future would want their 15yr olds to sustain injuries in school sport that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives and so the rot begins. Less boys motivated to play rugby will mean less talent in the pool and it is a slow spiral downhill to mediocrity and yet those involved pushing their programs only have this season or next season in their sights. That is a whole debate on its own but lets not go down that path, that is SARU to figure out at some stage when we continue to lose to NZ.
@ Gungets- I heard recently about a boy being knocked out and the reason given was that he was bounced by a boy who has increased his weight to over 100kgs. Physics is absolute. Maybe the lack of injuries is because the opposition do not engage as much which is evidenced by some blow out scores of late. Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place. I suppose Hilton just want to be able define there are own process and priorities.
@Springkahn: 1. Were there more injuries from the Glenwood match than the others. Thats the reason they gave – is it true.
2. Does Glenwood do worse at academics, or do their Elite academy kids do worse.
Those are the two premises of the Hilton, and your, argument. Give me the facts on that, not the physics theory, then the rest of your arguments have foundation. Start with the example you gave – the House kids that were injured. How, when, where – they played just 1 “rugby focussed” school, and lost narrowly if I am not mistaken?
There’s an argument to be made, but not the way you have made it. I guarantee that any of the first 15 squads will be in the normal distribution curve for Matric results and varsity entrance – comparing well with sportsmen from other “non rugby focussed” schools.
How about you make that a thesis for the off-season – check out the Tier-1 results?
@Gungets Tuft: The arguments are quite sound and one is basic arithmetic and the other physics. In terms of academics, this has nothing to do academies and don’t get defensive on this issue. There is limited time in a kids life to develop in all aspects of life to prepare them for the future. Any over exposure in one area will naturally cause an under exposure in another area, These forums indicate how much some people are obsessed with school rugby in particular and this unbalance is created. In “serious” rugby school cultures, the pressure is on the boys to spend many hours in the gym, training etc ext. Only a handful will ever kick onto a professional career in rugby and hit sis good for them but for the majority they have lost out on other opportunities to prepare for the future. Just as sport require a solid foundation, hard work and experience to do well so does any child’s career. If one only has an hour spare in a day, I would argue that that time is better spent focussed on what will be his career than on rugby. Parents, coaches and schools would rather get the instant gratification of their child’s sport’s team doing well than consider the long term career opportunities.
The second is simple physics. F=MA (force equals mass times acceleration) the is no doubt that the kids are getting bigger and quicker and hence the force in each contact has increased substantially. The rugby academies are breeding bigger and quicker personnel ( they spend more time in a gym and conditioning than non rugby focussed schools) As sated in my school,l club and provincial career I have never witnessed as many injuries as I now see in rugby. This is purely down to the fact that the hits are bigger. Ergo rugby academy schools will create more damage to non rugby focussed schools.
I think the logic of the argument is sound but it may not suit the reader.
@Grasshopper: The Rhodes scholar from my year Darryl Lee was also from the Bluff Republic. Brighton Beach SP I think.
@Gungets Tuft: yes, it changed to Durban Academy in the mid 90’s and bilingual, hence Warren being English. The Bluff used to have two big Afrikaans schools in Dirkie Uys and Andries Pretorius, huge derby when they played. I even remember my dad voting at AP for the NP and there were AWB guys on horses there. Most really good Bluff primary school sportsman go to Glenwood, I was one of them catching a bus to to school with the Durban girls high girls…naaice!
Congrats to Warren Whiteley, on Bok bench. If he runs on it will be Glenwood’s 7th Bok! Couldn’t go to a better guy. Next Kyle Cooper for end of year tour….
@Grasshopper: I presume the Dirkie Uys you are referring to is the school on the Bluff as the other Dirkie Uys Primary is in Moorreesburg. A bit far away. Thomas du Toit SA schools was in the one from Moorreesburg
@Grasshopper: Still there, I think.
https://www.facebook.com/dbnacademy
@GreenBlooded: Is this Dirkie Uys Bluff? I thought that closed years ago. Or another Dirkie Uys. Warren sounds as Durban English as one could get…
@Springkahn: Intuitively it is logical that an 80kg boy propping against 120kg opposition runs the risk of injury and that is probably true of most positions across the field.
I am not however convinced that that had anything to do with Hilton’s decision. As recently as last year they were competitive against most opposition and in fact seemed to be throwing significant money at ensuring that they remained so.
They lost heavily this year to a number of their traditional rivals as well as Glenwood. All of the smaller schools are more exposed to these cycles than the bigger schools of 1200+ boys but I don’t think that there is at this stage a significant difference in the conditioning and gym programs followed by 1st XV players at Glenwood, College or the smaller private schools. MHS, who seem not to embarked on the kind of “professionalism” that is an anathema to Hilton, and others, lost to Glenwood by a few points in Durban – hardly a basis for the “boys against men” concern that Hilton seem to have raised.
I’m sure that rugby in general is being affected by the increased size and strength and fitness of players today compared to decades ago and schoolboys aren’t sheltered from this.
To me there seems to be a divergence of approach that will result, in the opinions of some, in a perpetual widening of the gap which then brings into question the merit of the fixture. It is every schools prerogative to make that assessment and act accordingly.
There are many aspects of increasing professionalism of rugby at a schoolboy level that I find abhorrent and believe to be detrimental to skills development and the ethos of amateur school sport but I don’t think that there is anything wrong with schools trying to be the best that they can and providing the coaching, conditioning support and guidance, and environment to allow boys to realise their potential at that level. Sure only a few will go on to make a career of rugby (or any other sport offered) but equally only a few will get the benefit of Ad Math or music or some other academic and cultural offerings.
@Ploegskaar: There shouldn’t even be a discussion about a Durban boy going from a primary school to any high school he wants to, much less a Durban high school. It’s been well noted that much of the Grade 7 recruitment is a bit of a flyer, very little certainty of how it’s going to turn out. Unless your dad is Hagrid and mom is Maxime.
@GreenBlooded: Yes, excellent example of recruitment done right. Yes, the school benefited, but the player gained so much more, with regards to a better educational environment, coaching, conditioning and being associated with and part of a successful team.
@Gungets Tuft: Let’s just say he was hijacked from Dirkie Uys – a school very few here would have even heard of much less know where to locate. In the spirit of the “what’s best for the boy” criteria espoused on another thread – would a move to Glenwood in this case cut the mustard??
@QC86: He was at Dirkie Uys for primary school, Glenwood for his whole high school.
@Springkahn: The problem with your whole argument is this. There is no evidence that the so-called Academy Schools have inferior academics, and no evidence that there are more injuries when playing against them. In fact the number of House injured actually points to fewer matches doing nothing to reduce the injury attrition. One might easily argue that the lack of game time has affected their conditioning negatively and left them more prone to injury. Too many straw men built on assumptions in your argument to dispute each point.
I am also not convinced that the elite sports academy idea at school is a good one, but your argument just struggles for foundation.
@Springkahn: Are you aware you can actually injure yourself, twisting an ankle etc. There is absolutely no evidence that Glenwood cause more injuries than say Westville or College, however Hilton are still playing them…..sounds like bull kak to me…..
@QC86: I believe he was there from grade 8…….let me ask you about Greg Somerville at Dale College on a year’s exchange programme, is he a Dalian or not? Are 1 year exchanges OK?
@meadows: Been off line for bit but I still need to weigh in here of the support of Hilton and other schools in similar positions.
There are two reasons for my believing Hilton are going down the right path. The first is from an academic perspective and the second is personal injury
There is no doubt that some schools place an unbalanced focus on school sport and in particular rugby. Only 0.7% of school leavers kick on to participate in formalised school sport after matric. It makes no sense that you would not consider the other 99.3% who need to be well prepared for life after school With this sport focus there is always an opportunity cost and the boys who are led down this path by schools, coaches and parents will only experience this opportunity cost later in life. Could one more hour in philosophy class better prepare kids for the future or do they spend that extra hour in the gym? I have no doubt that the kids would be better prepared for the future if they spent less time in a gym and practising for a sport they will not continue (ignoring the 0 .7%) That is the one side of the argument
The other is the size and physicality of the sport nowadays. MHS play approximately 8 games per year in a shortened season. It was interesting to see that at their last game of the season, that 8 of the starting U15XV where on the sideline unable to play as a result of injury. Anyone who has had reconstructive surgery understands that these injuries will be with you for life. Why would a school, coach or parent willingly want their kids to suffer this predicament. I can recall in my school rugby career going through seasons without any serious injuries to any of our players and we played many more games than the new shortened season. The reason is a result of school academies focussing on condition and training. In the past there were no such academies or specialised school rugby programs and all kids were similar and natural talent and depth in a school, were the only factors. Graduates from these academies are on a different level and their sheer physicality will introduce more injuries. One cannot take the stance that the other schools should do the same, as the other schools may not place as much emphasis on school rugby or not want their students to sacrifice other opportunities for a sport that in all likelihood they will not continue post matric. These schools (academies) should not be playing against other schools where it is just considered a sport and not a win at all cost activity. They should play against other academies if that is their desire but the injury toll will be the same. Kids form lessor rugby focussed schools are forced to play against specialised athletes and whether they are more talented or not, size and conditioning will result in more injuries. We need to step back, take the foot off the pressure and allow kids to be kids. They have plenty of time to develop post matric, ( look at the difference Aussie made to Rathbone post U21) there is no need for kids to develop at school the way they are being pushed by coaches. I strongly support any school not wishing to play against rugby academies for a personal safety perspective. It is not worth having your 15 yr old son carrying an injury for the rest of his life as a result of being coerced into participating in a sport that he will not continue after school by his school, coach or parent.
@Grasshopper: In what grade was Warren Whiteley bought ? and did GW have anything to do with his development
@star: Not a contest? That only and entire theme of that diatribe was “Westville is better than Glenwood”. Next time just stipulate and I’ll concede – just to save the argument.
@Grasshopper: You really don’t get it do you? Obviously really proud of both your family and your school, and with justification. But others do tire of it. And I’ve read your comments since the 365 days.
End of my few comments, and almost certainly not yours as you WILL that’ve the last word, won’t you?
@Grasshopper: Have you ever not had the last word? Obviously like a Jack Russell. Find out what Umgodyi means and they enjoy meeting JRs!
@Umgodoyi: so you about as old as my uncle who played Glenwood 1st in 1964 & 1965 making Natal schools both years and dad at DHS in 69, playing 2nds there. Your comment wasn’t satire, you obviously don’t really understand satire then….
@Grasshopper: I’m not sure if you’re old enough or not, and for what, but I had already finished Varsity before you were born, unless of course you were 21 in matric, which I’m sure were not. But hey, my tongue is really beginning to hurt my cheek! Learn to relax and take more criticsm than you give, and then I’m certain you won’t get as much flak as you get. Sorry, this sounds like my old man giving me a few tips on coping with going to boarding school in the mid sixties. Now you will be starting to guess my age….really ancient! If I’d had your attitude then I would never have survived, and neither would anyone else.
@CRC: the shrinks call it projection
@Grasshopper: I believe it is called satire and you need a sense of humour to understand it.
@Umgodoyi: you obviously new here, I commented on all those issues and made suggestions many times. I finished in 96, old enough?
@Grasshopper: not concerned about banter, but going on and on about “my school is better than yours” etc. reminds me of SMALL kids talk, and by that I mean of seven or eight year olds. How about more comment about actual issues, eg. like this Hilton-GW blog,your alma mater’s apparent poaching, depth at some schools, what can be done to raise general standards and so on, without degenerating to juvenile statements?
Your mentioning of “always” using those nicknames was certainly not as evident in my time, but that might have been before you were born, or soon thereafter . I suppose that makes me a bit of a dinosaur and probably explains our differences of attitude.
@Umgodoyi: go and read the article posted in the newspaper by a Hilton Old boy and compare it to my tongue in cheek comment above, no comparison…..schools have always had nicknames for their rivals, Queersney, Wetsville, Gaywood, Durban Homosexual Society (DHS) etc…..it’s called banter…
I cannot believe some of the absolutely childish comments that I would have been ashamed of at prep school let alone seeing being written by adults!….by all means be proud, but what about just a little humility?
@Grasshopper: Childish comment don’t you think. After all it’s not the boys themselves who made the decision.
@GreenBlooded: heard too, a nice 100 odd run win vs some girls in white…
@Grasshopper: I hear there was a little cricket match that took place today? Last time perhaps?
@star: Westville didn’t win the local surfing comp, it was actually Northwood followed by Clifton; http://www.northwoodschool.co.za/2014/07/22/northwood-take-the-kzn-schools-surfing-final-at-the-durban-july-surfing-extravaganza/
Nice spin there. Anybody can choose their best sports and spin it….spin doctor deluxe.
@star: I was there too, excuses….cricket is about winning and losing tosses. I lost a few games on wet pitches due to losing the toss, never complained. Anyway, you win with your ‘all round’ excellent school, well done. There are others out there also providing all round excellence, you just need to look a little further than the pavilion…….
@ GB- again this is not a contest. Although it would be nice if you could whisper into the missus’s ear
You go on about GW haters and that the tall wind catches the most wind. I am simply stating that this might not necessarily be the case and that when people comment there might be a bigger picture at hand.
@ Grassy- you go on about the game at Westville when Andile P was on fire. Allow me to comment as I actually was at the game. The conditions and pitch were a nightmare. Proof was the fact that GW were 50 for 5 in reply. Whoever won the toss was to going to win the game . Over and out. What has struck me however is the difference in the response to when we beat GW on Dixons in the T20 coastal semi final. At Westville the masters opened the bar and entertained an obviously ” happy” GW team. This was not the situation at GW and I later heard the first team was hauled before the headmaster to account for the sin of being beaten by Westville. This certainly would not have happened at Westville. Need I say more. You say ” a few were incorrect but hey ho” Please give details so I can apologise appropriately.
@star: OK – yours is the biggest. Satisfied?
@star: oh yes just to add, Glenwood certainly don’t have to be jealous about anything, especially history & tradition. Also we have a new Protea in Shezi and Bok squad player in Warren Whiteley….
@star: nice selection of sports there, a few were incorrect but hey ho. What about tennis, squash, baseball & athletics? You conveniently forgot about the 1st term hiding Glenwood gave Westville in real cricket. Andile P on fire! The schools are pretty even when you take all sports into consideration. Academics is a no brainer really, wealthier parents = more extra lessons = better results. Anyway this is not a place for dick waving more a place to chat about rugby which Glenwood won fair and square this year. Over the past 7 years Westville have won one 1st team game….
@ GB- You go on about GW haters. I thought I had better do a bit of introspection to see if maybe I was one. Well it cannot be from a historical perspective as my family built the suburb . Maybe it has to do with current relationships . My best golf partners are all GW boys so that cannot be it either. Possibly it has to with the fact that my son is at Westville and there is some pathological short term jealously issue. Well lets have a gander then .
How about soccer ? Well Westville played 16 games against GW and lost only one. I actually feel for the GW boys who can never have a home game as they are not allowed to play on Dixons. Hockey then? Westville won 8 and lost 2 against GW and won all the A team games. They were also ranked number 1 in the country before they stopped playing. Cricket? Westville is the only school in the country to play at the T20 nationals 3 years consecutively. They are also currently ranked above GW and have been for seasons now. Swimming- besides the volumes already expressed I would like to add the 13 Commonwealth medals that were recently earned by old boys. Can any school in the Commonwealth say that? How many medals did GW bring home? I have also just learnt that Westville has won the Midmar race for the 19th consecutive year. Well that will take some beating( Grassy). I will see you in 20 years time 
Then it must be the dominance of GWs rugby. Since my son has been at Westville ( 2011) Westville has overall won more games than it has lost and has a positive points differential. The U16As have won 2 and drawn one. The firsts have won 1 and lost 2. Hardly stuff to push me over the edge. Westville even won the local surfing competition.
Sport. Golf is out and we need not go there :mrgreen:By the way Westville were 2nd to Hilton in that tourno. We did not need our granddads hickory throw aways.
Drama- I had the privilege of watching the production of Joseph and heard from independent reviewers that is was the best school production in a while.
What is left then? Of course the reason the boys are at the school -Academics. But wait – was Westville not rated the top boys school in the country by a Sunday Times review. Grassy will say that it only included mathematics and science subjects. OK moving on Over the last 3 decades has Westville not had the top KZN student at least 8 times. What school can come close? I am getting worried now. If I am a GW hater than I must be clinically insane. Then it dawns on me . Maybe the position I take has nothing to do GW at all but more to do with a destructive process that will destroy what we all hold dear about SBR. I will hold off on the shrink for now
@Playa: https://www.facebook.com/groups/444016355643295/
@beet: Not a war or words at all. Just a nice balanced article from Glenwood putting into perspective it’s rugby program in the context of everything else that Glenwood does well!! Every Glenwood hater should be made to write it out 20 times.
Hilton pulls the plug but the water is still running out-for days now. Someone has obviously left the taps open because it’s not getting empty.
@Grasshopper: Executive summary please…
I guess the war of words sells newspapers
@Grasshopper: which paper ?
@Vleis: The headmaster in the 90’s was Mike Maher and he was not that focused on sport, well athletics yes hence Glenwood winning the D&D (Durban & Districts) athletics 7 years in a row and winning the double (athletics & swimming) one year. The athletics team in the early 90’s produced 4 SA Schools athletes, Tyrone Peacock, Ryan Renaud (high jump, both jumped over 2,10m with Tyrone jumping 2,18), Attila Dudas (100m/200m), & Lucky Hadebe. Other great athletes were Barrett Pardey (shot put/discus), Cameron Steenkamp (Javelin) and Rudi de Vry (discus)…..the list goes on. Rugby was not a focus and we battled badly…..I think 96 must be our worst season ever, played about 16 and won 3…
Nice response from TK today in the Saturday paper…..:-)
@Vleis: I hope he hangs onto his day job, The Onion is not going to headhunt him based on that effort. But perhaps you are right – it might be an attempt at satire, in a blacksmith sort of way. It’s Saturday, I am going to try to be generous …
@Roger: @GreenBlooded: @Gungets Tuft: I think that the article is satirical, rather than sinister. It could also be seen as self-depracating given that golf is an unimportant school sport compared to rugby. By the way, I attended a government school before anyone accuses me of being a Hilton apologist.
@Grasshopper: Looks like most of your Rhodes scholars graduated from Glenwood in the 90’s and late 80’s when your rugby was crap. Did the headmaster at the time (in contrast to the current version/upgrade) set up a vigorous academic academy that relegated the rugby players to the cheap seats?
@GreenBlooded: Maybe Ellsie Ballot or Smuts Scholarship, we had a few of those too. I remember a guy called Zelen Hunter, his family left for the US in grade 11. Gosh, that dude was Mensa easily. They announced in assembly he came 2nd in the US for SAT’s and he then went on to top his Ivy league College….now he was a bright spark..
@GreenBlooded:did you play against us at the Saints festival 1988 – if you did you will remember the result –
@Grasshopper: Darryl Lee. Dux in my year 1988. Clever boykie – not surprising to see him there.
@Grasshopper: Sorry 8, including Kameel…cut & paste error…hahah
Whilst I am on academics, Glenwood’s Rhodes Scholars;
n total, Glenwood has had 7 pupils awarded the prestigious Rhodes Scholarship. They are:
E. Osborn – 1952
K.R McCall – 1958
F. Fincham – 1977
D.R Lee – 1993
M. Wesson – 1994
A. Coutsoudis – 1998
A. Sienaert – 1998
Kameel Premhid – 2013
Not bad for a ‘non academic’ school…
@Roger: Don’t be silly – Glenwood is a rugby academy.
@GreenBlooded: “classic case of exitus acta probat”
I’m impressed – did they offer Latin in the sixth form at Glenwood
@Grasshopper: It’s not bigotry for me, it’s a classless display of an inferiority complex. Forget that they beat every other school as well, single out the ones who you feel might have embarrassed you. To me, speaks volumes about the author. My opinion of Hilton doesn’t change, every family has it’s cousin that they don’t invite per for Christmas.
@GreenBlooded: ok – that’s a shocker – I read the article in the Witness
some people take themselves a bit too seriously
@Roger: http://www.schoolsportsnews.co.za/rugby/hiltonglenwood-battle-rages-on/
@McCulleys Workshop: Not sure exactly which parts you refer to – his post makes a lot of sense to me at least.
TK is no fool – one does not aspire to, or indeed remain in the position of headmaster of a premier boy’s high school by being an impulsive renegade with a single minded focus on his rugby team. Those tags have been given to him by people who have far less knowledge and experience in his field than he does, not earned by him. As Hopper says – he is currently reading for a post-graduate degree in Education – PhD if I’m not mistaken – so one has to assume that the soon-to-be Dr TK is at least a little passionate about what he does. At the very least, us armchair critics need to admit that perhaps, just perhaps, he knows a thing or two better than we do and that he is privvy to one or two things that we are not.
He is entirely focussed on his vision for Glenwood – and for a top educationalist, it does not simply comprise of a champion win-at-all-costs rugby team. It might not be popular or palatable for some but history will be the judge of whether he was right or wrong. In 20 years from now, if Glenwood is a shining light in a sea of mediocrity, many might salute him as a visionary who had the foresight to set Glenwood on a path of survival. Conversely, if Glenwood is battling to attract learners due to a reputation problem, he will be hung out to dry. I don’t know which way it will go but I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt for now, partly because of loyalty and partly because I recognise that he probably knows more about running a school and the landscape of the education business than I do. While he has applicants standing 3-4 deep at each 2nd form desk, he can probably afford to thumb his nose at his critics and continue on his path. Let’s just see – it may just end up a classic case of exitus acta probat.
@Gungets Tuft: must be reading different articles
@Gungets Tuft: Agreed, never seen a better example of bigotry in my life…..I actually had to read it twice to believe it!
FYI, Glenwood does OK in academics too; http://www.glenwoodhighschool.co.za/glenwood-boys-represent-kzn-national-science-expo
@Roger: For one thing – anybody who still believes that deals are done on the golf course is living back in the 70’s. Second – anyone with that much unprovoked emotion about money has his head so far up his backside he can see his own tonsils. If there was ever a case to be made for a top education not buying manners and class that is it. The gentry at Hilton will be embarrassed, at least the ones I know will be. The good thing, he won’t have to explain it to any Glenwood people next to a rugby field for a while.
@GreenBlooded: GH’s post above.
@McCulleys Workshop: What is?
@Grasshopper: what was wrong with that? They obviously have a top class golf outfit?
@McCulleys Workshop: Did you see the Hilton drivel yesterday in the paper about their golf team, classy!
@Grasshopper: What a lot of dribble!
@RBugger: And Kershaw doesn’t? Hmmm, he has been in teaching for 30 plus years and at Glenwood for 20 plus, he knows what he is doing. Also, he is doing a post grad course in management, not dumb. Although everybody has their faults and maybe he has made a few mistakes. He certainly won’t roll over especially considering he runs one of the biggest schools in the country…
Ja, that is most certainly Sammy Gunn of Selborne College. A great Headmaster who understands the importance of schooling being an educational institution which offers sport as an added benefit to the kids – to me, he has it spot on.
@GreenBlooded: didn’t he roll over on Marnegate – got his tummy tickled nicely
@Roger: I don’t expect TK will roll over and bare his neck. He is not the type that avoids a confrontation – unlike the headm……….ahhh forget it.
@Roger: Yep. I’m sure TK will be fine….
Reading that letter it was obviously written by the Selborne headmaster and he is spitting bullets. Good luck TK at the conference
The recent Mercury story online; http://www.iol.co.za/mercury/school-rugby-stop-the-money-rot-1.1742553?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it#.U__3m6sazCQ
@GreenBlooded: Well, I can safely assure you that there was never an arrogant take on it in our Monday assemblies. In the afternoon we kitted up and practiced as usual, with the coaches quite certain that improvement was necessary because we had made a long series of mistakes. I clearly remember the Monday after I had scored one of my very very few tries, with the other lock also scoring one, that we were held up as an example of just how poor our backs were that the tight forwards had to rescue them. No complacency evident, on fact I probably did laps for my socks being down or something.
@GreenBlooded: yep, he was like that…that was disgusting though!
@Grasshopper: I recall with clarity one Monday morning after a particularly bad College massacre – Maher in assembly reads out the results one by one (not a single victory), leers at all of us from the lectern, says “Boy’s I’m disgusted” and storms out without another word…….Eesh!
@Gungets Tuft: The conversion rate of brilliant u13 athletes/players is as low as 5-6/30 at u16 level and can drop to 2-3/30 at u19 level. These are by my personal calculations over the years. Conversely the conversion rate of brilliant u15 athletes/players is as high as 8-9/15 at u19 level. I will never waste my time with recruiting/investing at u13 level, you can pick out the gems 2 years later.
I can imagine if you took College results from all the teams since the 60’s they would have around an 80% win rate. I remember on Monday’s just seeing L next to each team, it was depressing.
@Gungets Tuft: I suspect that those win – loss ratios are influenced by a relative strengths in the first half of the last century. I have it on good authority that the 1930’s (or was it ’20’s) were ‘House’s golden era
Your point is made although wins against College since the 60’s have been very much the exception rather than the norm and savored all the more for it. I particularly enjoyed the 36-16 game in ’08 which I think was the first win in about 10 years (they drew in ’04).
All schools suffer the odd heavy defeat in weak years, especially schools of just over 500 odd boys, – a few years ago the MHS winning margin was 40 pts in both games against Hilton – followed by a protracted Hilton losing streak. The tables were turned last year against a weak ‘House side. Hilton had a competitive side last year that held their own against most opposition so I’m surprised at the official rationale for their decision.
@Dixon’s: I have similar memories, plenty of ruck marks on my back after College, they certainly knew how to ruck, maul, scrum and jump. They always seemed to have huge legs. Our big blokes were just fat and got shunted everywhere by better coached and prepared teams. College just knew how to do the basics very well. The structure was amazing and if injuries occurred they just slotted into the team above. Glenwood has got it right to C team but a long way to go to get the D, E & F teams there….
@Gungets Tuft: i think the aura that College has also comes from the lower teams as much as it does from the !st XV, never an easy game!!!. I never played higher than the D team and the 5th XV and I never came within 30 points of a College side in the 5 years i was at Glenwood. lost a large amount of skin and blood on Leaches and Nicholsons… i cant call them fields… more like rock hard earth covered with dusi sand rather than grass. felt like you where lying on sandpaper when you happened to be stuck at the bottom of a ruck with a rampaging College pack climbing all over your back! That aura that College has is something that every school in Natal will always try and achieve! i think Glenwood is slowly getting there, but not there yet!
@meadows: Can’t argue with that. The risks that schools take with Grade 8 bursaries, I wonder what the hit rate is with bursary kids and eventual representation. That’s a post-grad study for an aspiring sport scientist.
You might be surprised about the success of schools like Hilton against College over the years, excluding the 80’s (the Golden Years). They seldom took a real belting and were never taken lightly. Till 2011 Hilton have the 3rd most victories against College (41 – biggest defeat 51-9 in 1980), DHS first (57), House second (44 – largest defeat 50-9 in 1972)). I believe Glenwood are on 39, and that with 14 of them in the 2000’s, 13 since 2006 – largest defeat 61-13 in 1995 . Biggest losses to the same teams, for fairness – Hilton 38-22 or 30-6, House 36-16 or 34-0 Glenwood 47-10.
College is flattered by this aura of legend, it’s never been quite as one sided as it sounds.
@Gungets Tuft: The problem with dishing out scholarships to grade 8’s in rugby especially is that there are so many developmental factors that will influence the probability of their development into similarly effective U18’s. It is often the early developers that stand out at prep school and they are then overtaken in their teens. I recall reading somewhere that most top sprinters were/are late developers only picking up the pace, as it were, in their late teens. Of course, as in the case of the du Preez boys, genetics can provide some insight!
I agree that Hilton’s stance is tainted with a dash of hypocrisy which to my mind somewhat undermines their seizure of the moral high ground. I also think that there is more to it than the klap received from Glenwood or the risk of injury. The smaller private schools suffered at the hands of College for decades without anyone threatening to withdraw.
I am convinced that increasingly professional rugby programs at schools with their concomitant over coaching and emphasis on winning low risk rugby, rankings, and provincial representation, are actually to the detriment of skills development (in general) and manifest in all of the negative symptoms like steroid abuse, cheating over age players, and “poaching” impacting on long standing relationships. The only perceived positive is in conditioning but it is highly debatable whether a few extra kgs of “nightclub” muscles are going to improve the prospects of the tiny fraction who make it into the senior ranks.
At the end of the day many life lessons are learnt on the sports field, in team sport in particular, and in that context I don’t think that there is anything wrong with schools having good sports programs, boys being well coached, and teams playing hard, playing to win, enjoying and taking pride in their performances. There is however a significant distinction between playing to win and setting out to win at all costs.
It is a sport after all, an amateur one at that, and meant to be played for the enjoyment and camaraderie of the game and not at this age for financial reward or the prospect of it – something that will only follow for a tiny percentage of these boys.
@Springkahn: The problem is that the other schools (with the unfortunate exception of Kearsney – in the same sort of slump as Hilton) are not in the position of having taken the same sort of klap from Glenwood this year. The generous would say it wasn’t the scoreline that caused it, but the cynical would say different. Hilton bought a team in 2013, dare I say that Kearsney did the same with their Dream Team (they just did it in 2008/9 – back in Grade 9, and put Mr Dick and DPHS on their Christmas card list forever). The “come to earth” has been with a bump, but I have no doubt whatsoever that these two fine shcools will be back in the mix. Hilton however will have to come bearing gifts of food – pie of the humble type springs to mind – asking to ba allowed back into the fold. By that time adjustments to fixture lists might make it impossible, this stand on principle having longer term consequences.
I very much doubt that their “stand” is going to achieve anything at all. The Trad Schools conference is going to be an interesting thing though – that is where the stand is going to be made. With bated breath …….
Agree on the obsession with rugby though, as a hockey dad I can …
@Gungets Tuft: I have to agree with you. I do think it hypocritical of Hilton, given their recent practice and performance you mention. I would be a great deal happier if it were another school making this stand but alas it is not and I support them for the new found ideals. We need to bring school boy rugby back to exactly that. A game played by school boys and not revered as some springboard to success (which it is clearly not). They need time to develop and grow as players and having national rankings and professional coaches will not allow them to do that. Let boys be boys and men should not be over concerned about the frivolities of boys, but school boy rugby has become an obsession to many schools, parents old boys coaches etc etc and it is blatantly wrong.
@Springkahn: That might ring true is Hilton were known for their flair and joie de vivre, but they aren’t. Last year they fielded their own over-aged player (having skirted the HMA in the most cycnical manner), then played their game around the (admittedly very, very good player), by chasing box kicks till the sun went down. While being coached by an imported coach who was earning a reputed R1 million a year.
In our haste to blast Glenwood we are being blinded by this so-called call on principle by Hilton. Nasty thing, principle, it’s only credible when it’s consistent. Hilton probably have to do produce a few home grown teams before they can walk down the street of the Empire in their new clothing.
@meadows: Correct and as we become more professional at school sports the same process will apply, which is to my point. How much better could we be if allowed our juniors to play with absolute abandon and not face the wrath of the coach, school network and parent, if they made an unwise choice. We all have kids and we know the best lessons they learn are lessons they teach themselves. Their ability or opportunity to learn their mistakes in rugby are reducing, the younger and younger we begin entrapping them in win at all cost rugby and trying to ensure our particular school of choice is the number one ranked school in the country. We are over fixated at school boy level and it is not good for either rugby or the athlete. It would be great to stop the bus but unfortunately one cannot and hence I like the idea that Hilton are taking a stance and saying enough. It may bring greater focus to the track our rugby is taking.
@Springkahn: I agree to an extent, but not fully. Firstly, Glenwood is focussed on producing athletes in ALL sports and academics, not jut rugby. That has to be the one thing that people keep forgetting. SA Schools cricket, hockey, rugby, squash, baseball, swimming, tennis, mountain bikers this year alone….
I don’t agree about lack of skills at school level, I coached in the UK and their elite school players are big but much slower and nowhere near as skillful. Guys like Vers, Keyter, Joubert, Coetzee, Alex Jonker, Henry Immelman etc you just don’t get the quantity out there. That is why I love schoolboy rugby, the flair shown. Look at guys like Warren Whiteley, he would be in most countries teams now, great skillful player. Aplon etc…
@Roger: Serfontein and Small Smith were both at a school that, notwithstanding their obvious success on the field, does encourage the boys to play what is in front of them. Their 2007 side with the Ebersohn’s imperious was a great example of that approach and mindset. To me it demonstrates what can be done at this level in a rugby program that is the envy of many of those aspiring to the pinnacle and perversely adopting low risk approaches to get there, or at least thereabouts.
As you correctly point out it will be drummed out of them as they are indoctrinated into the world of “rugby as it should be played” according to Heynecke Meyer and the Bulls coaching set up.
@Springkahn: spot on – did you read the interview with Jacques Piotgieter in the Sydney Morning Herald about the culture and coaching at the Waratahs as opposed to the Bulls. He also mentions that it starts at schoolboy level in SA – bigger is better and crash bang wallop suits the SA stereotype and ego. Read it if you can find it – very interesting.
Remember how brilliant Jan Serfontein was at school – two seasons at the Bulls and his creativity has disappeared altogether. William Small Smith – where’s he? Look out Jesse Kriel….
@GreenBlooded:
“Amen to that!! It’s not only here – it’s the world over. It’s been happening in the States for decades”
I think that as a general trend across the wider population that is correct but i don’t think that at the “sharp end” institutions like Oxford and Cambridge in the UK, MIT, Harvard and other top institutions in the US and elsewhere have compromised on standards.
I think that our tertiary standards are inevitably being compromised as well and a gap will continue to widen between our “sharp end” and theirs. It was not unusual a few decades ago for my peers to go on to undergrad and/or post grad study at the institutions I’ve mentioned above. Academic faculties at these venerated institutions once had a healthy SA representation of people of the calibre of Tobias and Klug (for eg).
i suspect that this is becoming less and less the case as we fall behind.
I will be interested to see what the author you referred to has to say on the US situation.
Back to elite sport programs at high school and Hilton’s decision not to compete…. There is not doubt that there is an increase of injuries at school rugby. I cannot recall a single injury in the 5 years of high school to anyone of my team mates that put them out for a season and yet it is now a common occurrence at school level. The kids are bigger and spending more time in gyms than we ever did. The darker side ( Quote Dr Patricious) is that SA has the highest incidence of steroid abuse amongst school kids in the world. This abuse will be most pre levant amongst the rugby elite schools as we are so fixated with size in SA Rugby. I therefore support Hilton’s approach not to wish to compete against a school that is single mindedly focussed on rugby and creating a rugby academy. The kids that GW will turn out will be physically superior in every way and this can only lead to more injuries. One cannot say then Hilton should apply the same principles as this takes us down a slippery path of professionalism which has already reached an uncomfortable level at school sport.
SA School rugby has become the demise of our senior rugby and we will never produce Sonny Bill Williams or players of exceptional flare as the creativity has been drummed out of our kids before they have developed it. (Wille Le Roux looks great but that is only in comparison to other SA players) With professional coaches at school boy level it is all about winning and playing winning rugby. A good coach will know the statistics and coach his team accordingly. He will create the pattern to which the kids must adhere to. If he does not win, he is replaced and hence he will enforce that the kids play according to his pattern. The creativity and flare of the individual is squashed.
I had an interesting chat with a top U16 rugby player who went on exchange to NZ to a top rugby school. He said he was amazed as to how relaxed the games were. In the middle of the game the centre asked him to swop as he wanted a chance at fly half. Can you imagine that happening at GW or Grey. The NZ kids don’t have the same pressure and hence experiment so much more than our kids do. This is the damage that over emphasis on school rugby has on our kids. Watch carefully the skill and vision the NZ tight five, this is developed in the junior years when they can play loose unstructured rugby.
I can go on, but I am pleased Hilton have made a stance and hopefully many other schools will do the same and slowly release the pressure and emphasis forums like this place on school boy rugby. It is after all only a sport and only for 4 or 5 years of a kids life but it can effect him for a lifetime.
@kosie: True – and all treatments are dispensed with a smile at the Springbok bar in Hatfield I am told
@Redblack White: The symptoms you are describing is a clear indication that you suffer from PMS. Post Matric Syndrome. At least is can be treated!
@Gungets Tuft:
@Redblack White: I suffer from PMS, ADD, ADHD and OCD. I would like to murder you NOW but I can’t concentrate on that immediately, I need to go and wash my hands ….
@Grasshopper: I got given my matric for good attendance, and some serious lobbyinig of the head and the education by all the teachers that dreaded the prospect of me repeating. Pity actually, I might have been able to afford a far better class of truck if I had decent matric marks. I am also told the clever okes get to park under the more desirable bridges. The Einsteins end up like Michael de Broglio
@GreenBlooded: @meadows: @GreenBlooded: @Roger: Totally agree – standards must be raised because we are creating a perfect platform for varsity dropouts!
My kid was an 8 A’s over achiever and quickly realised at Varsity that the work required to get a matric A was not good enough for a 60 at uni. Fortunately he had some spare in the tank and was able to up his game – but a lot of okes don’t.
Then again, in our days the reason why we battled to get the high grades is that we all suffered from ADD, ADHD etc. without knowing it ( I have read the symptoms and I definitely had it !!)
Admittedly I read the symptoms in my wifes You magazines and going by that I also suffer from PMS
@GreenBlooded: these kids get found out very quickly at Uni though, especially in the Science courses – engineering, actuarial science, applied maths etc etc. Check the amount of Uni drop outs between first and second year at Wits, Stellenbosch, UCT etc –
@meadows: Amen to that!! It’s not only here – it’s the world over. It’s been happening in the States for decades – it’s just noticeable here because of the rate. Read the book by Charlotte Iserbyt.
When I was at school and varsity / Tech, there was a standard. If you met it – you passed, if you didn’t you failed. Simple. Nowdays it’s virtually impossible to fail a kid – and only once per phase (Phases are Foundation Gr1-Gr3, Intermediate Gr4-G6 and High School Gr7-Gr12).
The standard has definitely dropped to cater for the student – as opposed to the student rising to the standard which is a little more difficult. Not only in schools – but in tertiary institutions as well. I see this on a daily basis – young lighties with something like NHDip, BTech, MSAIEE, MSAIETE, MSAILE behind their names that do not know the basic application of Ohms Law or cannot solve a simple ratio/proportion maths problem that I could do in Std 8.
@meadows: Totally agree. I finished in 1996 and our dux got 6A’s, only 3 got 6. There were about 15 A aggregates in total out of 230 boys. Admittedly Glenwood isn’t really known as an academic school but the same happened elsewhere. These days schools are getting 70 plus A aggregates, that is more than 2 classes…..
@GreenBlooded: @Grasshopper: On the subject of A’s one of my pet gripes at the moment is the continual dumbing down of our standards. I can’t believe that this does anyone any good. When I was at school – admittedly a hell of a long time ago – 6 A’s were extremely rare. Now it seems to almost be the norm and outperformers are getting 9!
To make the point I recently read Phillip Tobias’s autobiography. He was nominated 3 times for the Nobel Prize and was probably the preeminent paleontologist in the world certainly one of the foremost scientists this country has produced. He matriculated as Dux of DHS with 4 A’s. He refers in the book to his predecessor as Dux, Aaron Klug, who won the Nobel prize for chemistry in 1982 who also received the grand total of 4 A’s.
@GreenBlooded: Me too, I got 6 A’s in 2nd form ranking 11th in the standard then it dropped to 5B’s and a C by 4th form, they said I should be top 10 but I had dropped to 35th in the standard. Daily report helped me get back to 4A’s and 2B’s for matric…..thank goodness…
I think the based performance on our IQ and EQ results…
@Grasshopper: You just ruined my day with that reference to “Daily Report”. It was always implemented after the 1st term results and reassessed on a termly basis. Needless to say, I was on it for all of the possible 15 terms during my 5 year stay at Glenwood.
Then I surprised them all by getting an A Matric. 
@Gungets Tuft: As it has been explained to me, the elite academy is by invitation – and the idea behind it is to develop athletes in all sporting codes who have the potential to make it to provincial and national level. The Average Joe who plays sport for the enjoyment of it fit’s into the normal coaching program – which in itself is very good.
As I’ve pointed out before – there is also an ‘elite academy’ for academics too (I think they call it A cubed or something) where the really bright kids are given additional work in maths, science and languages outside of the normal syllabus. The idea is to take kids with potential, in all endeavours, and produce excellence. That’s how I understand the system anyway – maybe Ou Umbiloburger will pop around sometime and confirm/deny.
@Gungets Tuft: Not sure mate, I’m not that close to the ground. I know boys that do not perform academically or reaching their potential are on ‘daily report’ which requires each teacher to write up a daily report for the lesson and it gets reviewed with the Head of year and parent weekly or bi-weekly.
Looking forward to cricket season now and Michaelmas at College..
@Grasshopper: All the athletes, or just those in the elite academy?
What is the criteria for admission to the elite acadamy, or is it open to all boys who play sport. The pragmatist in me says it must be reserved for 1st and 2nd team, then A team squads only.
@Springkahn: I understand that you don’t mean that as a general statement, I know that there are many teachers, and schools, that provide a healthy balance. I know of at least 2 instances at College last year where boys were on academic warnings that if they did not fulfil certain academic commitments that they would be suspended. I know of one case where this was followed through and the boy did not play, in a very high team.
Parents …. well .. that’s a different matter. Sometimes I think that there should be an area around schools and sports fields, like the technical area for coaching staff, where parents should not be allowed. It’s sad and sometimes amusing to see how far an umbilical cord can stretch between father and son when it comes to sport. That, more than anything I think, is why when a boy gets to varsity he drops the single-minded focus on sport. He is breathing unassisted for the first time, and the fresh air is toooo lekker for dad’s aspirations, gnome sane?
@Springkahn: just an FYI Glenwood’s sports athletes get a program to include extra lessons etc to ensure the academics are covered, it’s like flexible working. I think only 1 first team boy has failed in the past 5 years and he was very weak. In fact there has been quite a few A’s and boys with multiple A’s. That being said an A is not that hard these days. Just saying just because one is good at sport they need to let academics go to the dogs.
@GreenBlooded: it all depends on the focus, I agreed sport is part of the process but when you sacrifice the basic fundamentals of education to over succeed at schools sports, you have lost the plot. Less than 1% of school leavers in SA continue in formalised sport after school and yet so much emphasis is placed on school sports by parents coaches and schools. The poor kids are the losers in the long run. I recently heard of a kid who was so obsessed ( as a result of pressure to perform by school, father and coach) to make the first team he sacrificed maths for Maths Lit. He could not get in to his chosen faculty at varsity and without the Trio egging him on he has given up rugby. How different would his life have been if he could have pursued his chosen career. There are hundreds of kids facing the same issues as a result of over hype at school sports and yet the Schools, , Parents and Coaches don’t care as long as the weekend results are achieved. They are not concerned about the education of the kid.
@Springkahn:
“Too often school sports distract kids from this preparation”
Disagree! Sport is PART of the education process. Not a distraction from it.
The real issue starts when Schools, Old Boys and Parents (The Trio) start to forget why their boys are at school. School is preparation for the life that happens soon after matric. The kids have to be well educated in order to embrace this effectively. Too often school sports distract kids from this preparation. Hours, days, weeks and months are wasted in the gym and rugby pre season preparation, when in reality less than .01% of kids will take up a professional sports career. This is not in the kids best interest, it is purely self serving to the Trio and they are less interested in what careers these kids follow, than they are the result for next weeks game. The other 99.99% have to deal with the world out there and be properly educated to tackle it and yet the basic foundations of good education are not always cemented properly as the kids have been manipulated by the Trio to put sport before education. School sport does play an effective role in the development of kids but when you have professional coaches, pre season rugby starting in October etc etc I suspect Trio have lost the plot and are not educating the kids any longer. Fast track ten years ahead and who is to say, how much better those 1st XV kids would have been if they spent more time in the classroom. I agree with Hilton’s approach and the level of professionalism in school sport is now counter productive to education. (that is not what Hilton stance was but it eludes to this fact)
@Queenian: I haven’t heard about any boys going to St Alban’s. Do you know what ages they are? Are you not confusing St Alban’s with Southdowns? There are six boys (which is much more than recent years) going into grade 8 next year on sporting scholarships, but none are from the E Cape. Note that a sporting scholarship means a reduction in fees between 10% and 35%.
I’m told by an insider that one or two boys were brought to St Alban’s (by the Bulls?) last year but declined to attend when told they’d also need to put some effort into their academics. Could be hogwash though. What I can say with certainty is that there are currently no E Caoe rugby boys at the school, but there are many at Southdowns. Funny enough, Southdowns A teams are at the level of St Alban’s B or maybe even C teams.
@Queenian:
maybe I should be more like Speartackle, and we’ll see the application forms pile up on Mike Eddy’s desk
@beet: Is this article still in the pipeline?
@BOG: You speak about the one with no sin cast the first stone, I suppose a school like Dale could do that have not see them buy any players of late.
Could also be they saw some of Playa’s blogs on here and thought bloody hell not going to that school.
@QC86: I have heard that 6 boys from the border area are going to St Sithians and St Albans any truth in that.
@BOG: I think you more like Sadam Hussein.
Many schools have quietly stopped buying players,it caused so much unhappiness that it was not worth the small gains that were achieved.Kwagga’s and Grey PE spring to mind,some comments about the Grey PE coach’s wage package last year was that they could employ 4 maths teachers and that would benefit all the kids not just the first xv players,so hopefully pressure from all parties will force some people to make the right decisions.
@Bosveldpa: Do I understand you correctly that it is OK to occupy the moral high ground only when there are no expenses involved for the other party?
@beet: The worst “prize” that you could ever pass my way, is one named after Jimmy Carter. Even Barack Hoosein Obama, would be preferable.@Playa: A somewhat strange analogy, but I get your point. What I have been saying in recent times, is this. We are merely witnessing a dogfight for survival. In my opinion, humble of course,and looking ahead, most resources, if not all, will be concentrated in a few centres(schools) öf excellence” around the country . The rest, most will deteriorate even further, while a few will maintain the status quo at best. The trend is clear.
@BOG: Well done Bog. You seem to have arranged a KZN ceasefire of sorts. Not easy to do. The Jimmy Carter prize is heading your way
@Bosveldpa:
Firstly I think the schools need each other more than they don’t need each other. Affies’ reason for leaving the Beeld was to focus more on the providing opportunities for all their teams and Glenwood with close to 30 teams fulfils that need.
Secondly why punish the Glenwood boys. They have done nothing wrong in all of this. Furthermore the Glenwood officials have also not broken any rules.
I for one wished Dr Pierre Edwards had handled the Garsfontein matter differently. It’s an understatement to say his decision did not go down well. But that’s in the past now. He remains a respected leader in many circles of influence. Instead of trying to decide which fires to put out next year, wouldn’t it be great if Dr PE could channel his energy into developing national rules that end the “huursoldate” problem for once and for all. SBR is crying out for a hero in this regard and someone of Dr PE’s stature will find a receptive audience a very easy to come by.
@tzavosky: Wouldn’t be surprised if the spectators saw the last Affie vs Glenwood match in 2014 (till further notice). Maybe Affies continued this year because of transport paid upfront…
Just thinking….
@BOG: It was an analogy. My point is exactly what you point out. If poaching and this excessive recruitment is not stopped now, it will destroy schoolboy rugby in the next few years. Meditate on that during the off season.
@Bosveldpa: You say:
“What I do observe is the support towards the decision and a lot of people referring to the gentleman/men involved, unlike the downgraded remarks when Dr Edwards did the same…for the same reasons.”
Whilst I’m not involved with any of these schools whatsoever, I think you should read the above quoted paragraph carefully again. Then ask yourself why Dr Edwards stated that Affies don’t play against “huursoldate”, but they didn’t have any problem with playing Glenwood?
Some irony in that. One could even call it hypocrisy!
Maybe the Affies record breaking blog should be reopened…
@Playa: I don’t know how corruption was brought into this, but since you have now raised it, it is in South Africa, at a different dimension and if not stopped now, will destroy the country in the next few years. Meditate on that during the off season. @beet: I vaguely recall the letter. Apart from the one boy, a player of colour”, whose mother was a single parent, the others all had bonds with gcb, some very close, through their fathers. But let’s concentrate on the subject before us. Glen wood is accused. Letting the one with no sin, cast the first stone. I’m waiting— a
@ Beet- well no one is perfect
But is that not precisely the point to be made here. Westville is not claiming complete innocence and I am sure other commentators are of the same persuasion. That however does not preclude us and others from calling a spade a spade when we see one. The Hudson Park transfers raised heated debate amongst Westville commentators. Very different from the usual GW response of deflection which at one point included the statement ” viva recruitment viva”.
@star: What I found interesting about the DHS boy going to Westville was that Westville actually encouraged the parents to go and resolve their issues with DHS first. Westville also communicated with DHS. Everything was above board.
The handling of the Hudson Park transfers were vastly different.
Some interesting observations by Gary Teichmann and John Allen ( see BuffelsCM link posted at around 09h20)
The problem here is the continued drive towards professionalism at schoolboy level. I am almost certain that the PM teams of the 90’s would not be a match for their younger but better conditioned semi-pro versions of today. I recall a poem at school along the lines of : ” kinders was nog kinders toe ons nog kinders was…”
You can justify this professional approach by saying you are creating exceptional opportunities after school, but lets face it – those opportunities are limited in number. And whilst much is made of the exceptional coaching and rugby structures at the top schools, can one really state that these structures benefit the entire school group – probably not.
I am a proponent of a schoolboy professional club rugby system – where the clubs can franchise and become the business entities and whereby the exceptional schoolboy players can become involved in the pro sports arena – back at the ranch though, the schoolboys can play schoolboy rugby in their traditional old way.
In the interim, I also feel that instead of ranking the schools by their 1st team results only, why not include all the teams in these rankings – as many as 26 games are played in some cases ( from a College perspective anyway) – why not include all these results. True, some smaller schools will not be able to field as many teams, but the BHP formula can accommodate stagger differentials, so why not give it a go. This will very quickly put a different spin on who the real top schools are ( and I am not disputing that GCB will still end up tops, followed by Paul Roos and co, but I also believe Affies would be right up there in the mix)
Remember we are saying the schools are marketable because of the rugby programmes and success – well why not let the success of all the teams tell the story? – all I’m saying.
What does this have to do with the Hilton / GW saga? I guess the Hilton perspective might have been different had they not felt a shift in the pace and aggression of the GW approach to attaining the heights they have – hence the reference to being in a different league
@umbiloburger: I’m aware of this matter regarding Westville. I will blog it as carefully as I can tonight for all to comment on tomorrow. It’s sensitive for a number of reasons but nevertheless an interesting matter.
@ GB- I was actually more concerned about the process around the fence jumping so let me apply that to the 2 boys in question. Before I do, you raise an interesting point about the fact that movement might be due to social media, direct communication( boys talk to each other) and interaction on the local club rugby circuit. I think that could be applied directly to the 2 local boys who moved to Westville. Of course without sworn affidavits
it is still conjecture but we can still apply the reasonable person defence. The GW boy I believe was not a starter for the U16A and possibly given the purchase of more GK players felt his future lay elsewhere. Did Westville approach him? You be the judge. I have made enquiries about the DHS boy ( who was not a GK player at the time of the move) and the general consensus was that it was felt that his previous school did not have the necessary rugby culture. Again your point about social media ect is relevant. This cannot however be logically applied to the 4( at least) GK players that have moved to GW. The EG Jansen parent has actually stated on this blog that he was approached. I think the Selborne boy (or more specifically the Grade 11 candidate) also supported this position. In summary
GW Westville
No of boys 4( at least) 2
Prov rep at time of move 4 GK 0( one boy B team)
Locale EC/ER/NV Local
Period of contact GK Tourno Various
I suppose this is the same as Westville firing a firework and GW responding with a Nuke and you then trying to deflect and justify.
@BOG: I’m not sure of the exact number but I think it was 7 players. The article touched on 7 that had moved from various schools to GCB. A letter responsing to it written by a prominent GCB old boy who’s son was 1st XV captain was also published. The clear message in the was Grey do not poach players. It was a serious situation in the eyes of the GCB community, much as this one is serious to KZN and I can’t recall any at the time choosing to go with your words “stop being hypocrites” when defending Grey.
A bit after the fact, but …. In a public school it is illegal to use school fees paid by parents to give a bursary to another learner to attend a school. The only legal way a school can allow a learner to attend a school on reduced school fees payable by all parents is by way of a scale (determined by law). The only criteria that may be used is the parents financial ability to pay school fees. It is not within the powers of a principal or an SGB to grant reduced fees without going through the rigorous process as laid down by law. I am talking about public schools that levy school fees and not private schools. Granting bursaries with funds other than school fees is totally different matter. School fees are sacrosanct.
@Tang: I don’t think it’s only a case of bursaries. Michaelhouse and Kearsney have managed to keep up without hectic recruiting and they are exactly the same type/size of school. The difference is putting together a coaching structure that works. That’s where Hilton needs to focus or it won’t only be at the hands of Glenwood that they cop a hammering.
@BOG:
Boggie, maybe we should stop talking about the corruption committed by politicians in SA because it happens everywhere else in the world. Let’s be honest some of us are just bored of it being brought up time and time again when it happens. It wont stop until these guys know we’re onto them. Point is there is something wrong here, and Glenwood aren’t the only ones as correctly pointed out, but nothing will be done about it unless we make a “Ring-a-ring-a roses” about it. I suggest you change channels bcause this soap opera is not about to end 
@beet: I gather that you are referring to a player who re-located to bloemfontein and took along with him, his parents and dog. Let’s be honest, a schoolboy can hardly be regarded as “poached”, if that happens. The matter concerning wet pitches, gcb was totally vindicated by similar situations in both durban and pretoria, when the accusers did exactly the same. But, of course with a difference-total silence. But still, we did not go on, and on, and on—–about the situation
@beet:
“A number of attacks seemed motivated by a dislike of a school itself rather than an issue connected to the school.”
Now that is a statement I can wholeheartedly agree with!!
@Bosveldpa: Biggest wallet school boy rugby week.
@umbiloburger: Good thing that never happend taking this years result into consideration.
Interesting to read all the detail as per latest debacle re schoolboy poaching and schools having millions of budget available to do just that.
If we continue like this we will have an “english” thread of what we experienced when a prominent Pretoria school did exactly what Hilton just did earlier this year. So keep on blogging and we might get to a 1012 response thread.
What I do observe is the support towards the decision and a lot of people referring to the gentleman/men involved, unlike the downgraded remarks when Dr Edwards did the same…for the same reasons.
I see the likes of Rugbyman and other commenters and supporters of the Pretoria debate is very silent….
I however see a lekker business opportunity for a company named: Koopkrag
If Koopkrag can start a tournament for all the poaching schools they can then play in their own “Super League” as I’ve also read some refer to.
The banners can read…
Come support the school with the most money at the Koopkrag 2015 Week and decide where your son’s rugby future will earn you the most money!
Keep on blogging!
@umbiloburger: Is this Mike Wesson by any chance? Dale once had the privilege of having a coach by that name, who hailed from Ixopo. He coached under 14As, then under 15As then the great 1999 side. His coaching stint was tragically short-lived following the passing of his wife.
@Grasshopper: So Glenwood will foot the bill of a kid they saw play 3 games at GK week…a kid they watched at the insistence of his parents…a kid they’d never seen or heard of before…in this instance, 6 kids. Well, 4 confirmed, but we started at 1 if I’m not mistaken.
@GreenBlooded: If “poaching” is never involved I’m sure we’d here first hand from at least some of the parents what the actual facts are. Their silence, rightly or wrongly, simply increases suspicions.
@GreenBlooded: If “poaching” is never involved I’m sure we’d here first hand from at least some of the parents what the actual facts are. With those involved on the inside remaining silent suspicions just grow.
@star: Phew…have missed a storm here!! Perhaps you could explain the matric’s moving back to grade 11 after term 2, and being allowed to play sport in their 2nd matric year? I believe this has now been stopped after a HM meeting!! How long has this been going on for?
It’s always best to listen to what is going on at the schools and only then you can hear the truth.
@Hilty: I was somewhat amused to hear that not so long ago, Hilton threatened to withdraw their fixture against Northwood should they not pair up the fixture with George Campbell with Northwood playing the Hilton 2nds!!! @Far Meadows: Wesson, what a legend he was at Ixopo until grade 10….then off to house he went!! And that was in 1991, and here we are squabbling about poaching in 2014. By the way Wesson was a very good player and an example to all on how to make a bad situation work.
@BOG: It’s always different when the problem is closer to home. I’m sure the 2010 criticism of Grey was of great interest to you – the one in which GCB were accused of poaching and went to lengths to clear their name and provided explanations of how numerous top players ending up at the school.
Then a few years later when the effects of poor weather on the field were the reasons for Grey cancelling (postponing in the end) a fixture against Affies. Same charge for withdrawing that you are leveling against Hilton was made against GCB – scared of losing.
The truth of the matter is that in these modern SBR times the KZN private schools are bound to lose a lot more than they win against the Big 3 govt schools from u14 to 1sts. It has not stopped the compo until now.
@Playa: Yep, been on the sidelines many times and heard this sort of chatter. Also, I have a few friends coaching in KZN schoolboy rugby, the stories are hilarious…
@Grasshopper:
At what stage does the school tell the parents that they are in ‘cloud -cuckoo-land’ and that Johnny is actually not the best player in the province and that they should get a grip on reality, and that the chances of him making it as a pro rugby player after school are actually pretty slim ?
@Grasshopper: Do you really believe that?
@QC86: Not always, parent appraoches coach and says my son Johnny is the best No8 in his province but at small school X. He is not getting to play the likes of Grey Bloem, Affies etc and I feel he would be better at a school where there is more competition for places and he gets to play against the best schools in the country. I would also like to get him out of our small town and into a BE with other boys like him, sports focused. Can you have a look at him and see if we could maybe do a bursary deal to get him there as I don’t have the funds to cover the BE costs. Also, I can’t afford kit and tours, could you maybe help there or find an Old Boy who could…….blah blah blah……it happens, all the time…
@QC86: Agree
Ring-a-ring-a-r
rosies—-, a pocket full of posies— heck, this is getting boring. Halton was afraid of getting klapped- that’s it. Glenwood does not do anything different from other schools in kzn, so stop being hypocrites. And that includes hilton. Glen wood, if anything, just does it better
The pressure from parents must have been enormous for Hilton to cancel this fixture.
I must say it does come as little surprise and it will not end with Hilton and Glenwood.
I would love to read comments from Hilton parents about this topic.
I think @Roger made a point earlier about this being a step closer to a super league and I have to agree fully.
The ridiculous mismatches between the “semi professional” sports schools and the schools who play sport have reached crisis levels.
There is and can be no acceptable case for recruiting/ poaching. In the abscence of strict rules and controls, schools who subscribe to this approach will flourish (in terms of sports results).
Hopefully the move by Hilton will precipitate similar moves by schools who do not believe in “semi professional” school sport.
It is sad that a traditional fixture has to be cancelled no matter what the reason. How can Hilton keep pace with the new approach Glenwood have adopted. Hilton would probably have to give 15 rugby bursaries a year just to keep pace with the rate at which school boy rugby is changing. These numbers are not sustainable.
@noordwes: Yes but i feel then the current headmaster and their current rugby coach go to the parents of those 2 kids and tell them that ,look your kids have the talent to go alot further in rugby than what we can offer them and help them approach a suitable school.The school will loose the 2 kids talent but the people in charge have furthered and bettered the kids lives and is that not what schooling is about.
@Grasshopper: Take a screenshot. I am a disagreeable bar-steward, it’s unlikely to happen again soon ….
@beet: Spot on! We on this blog are a minority too, very very passionate Old Boys. Most will be happy to go and watch a couple of games a year and hope the side wins. They won’t know who the coach is or the players just want to soak up the atmosphere again. We sometimes (including me) get wrapped up in the details and forget to stand back and take stock. All I hope and pray for is that the headmasters in KZN come together and agree some rules so that all sport can continue for the boys sakes…
@QC86: The way you feel when Glenwood poached players from E-Cape will be the way that small school feel when someone recruit their players.
I do feel that the time is ripe for a superleague in rugby like in cricket in the old Transvaal.Every school can select a team participating against schools like Waterkloof,Noordheuwel,etc.The regular second team then becomes the first team participating against local schools.
It is only u/18,/16 and 15.
The school decide if they want to participate in that compitition.
@Grasshopper: if a parent approaches Glenwood why does Glenwood foot the bill?? not rocket science to workout who is approaching who.
Ive have a son that spent two and a half years at GW and never made Grant Komo at u16 in 2012. When the dicision was taken to move him to Hilton I was told that he has a future in rugby and that we had now ruined any oppertunity for him to further his rugby career.He went on to play u18 Academy week for the last two years.There are alot of politics involved in GW rugby,ask me I know.But I do hope with a great guy and coach like Rudy Dames at the helm that there will be some positive changes in the near future.
The boy is off to Stellies next year for an education first and play rugby second,no bursaries or scholarships.Would he have been able to achieve this at GW?,cant say no but I have my doubts.To many of us loose focus on schooling and me being one of those in the past.
@GreenBlooded: It’s definitely not a Model T Ford production line. There are all sorts of variations surrounding players moving from one school to another. So I’m definitely not going to try box into one scenario fits all cases, neither will I ever back a rule that prevents a player from moving or prevents him from participating in the sport he loves.
Information sharing is all around us. Kids to kids. Kids to parents. But believe it or not there are people who derive a living from spotting talent and placing them and if they think your kid is good enough they will approach you or him.
In all non-dictatorship decision-making though there are push and pull factors. You have to decide what the overriding one is. I’m sure the vast majority of players move to take up a better financial offer and not make use of the better facilities.
Glenwood is prejudiced by several things.
– This blog being KZN based being one, KZN issues tend to get more attention.
– The culture of the typical KZN traditional school old boy including yourself and other GOBs, which is “old school” – we generally patriotic, do not relate well to parents who shop their kids around or practices that go against tradition and the morals we like to believe our schools hold dear but at the same we are live for the rivalry and want to beat each other on the sports field.
– The annoying of people associated with other schools at some point in the last couple of years, whereas other schools that are also involved in recruiting don’t generally have strained relations.
– Glenwood choosing to use school rugby platforms to market themselves and thereby increasing their profile – iow the bad that comes with the good.
From experience of this blog though, I do believe even stronger than ever before that not all bad news is actually bad.
I also believe that people should take care to focus on the perceived problems which exist. A number of attacks seemed motivated by a dislike of a school itself rather than an issue connected to the school
@Gungets Tuft: Finally we agree again :-)
@Grasshopper: @GreenBlooded: There is a third option (other than the how can they be so good, or jealousy) and that could be all the anecdotal evidence that has built up. Remember that these moves don’t happen in isolation they must be seen along with the previous moves – just another wave on the incoming tide. 4 new U16’s, all GK players, 1/2 way through the year – nobody is going to believe that these kids, after getting GK exposure, suddenly think they are disadvantaged where they currently are.
As for the boy leaving Glenwood for Ville (if the story is true) .. that would be confirmation of exactly what I have said about Northwood when they imported, and Glenwood, and it applies to any school that decides to seek out players – you might as well write a letter to the encumbent telling him that you do not consider him good enough. The reaction can be to work harder (with the thought in the back of the mind that the buyer is ALWAYS going to play the bought product or face some serious questions about the waste of money), or leave and look for another place to get a game at the level they aspire to, and rewards loyalty and dedication.
Look to the lessons that Menlo apparently provide. Ruthless in recruitment, ruthless in disposal. It’s not a world I want to swill around in, and the tide will turn. This rabid recruitment is all a relatively new phenomenon, the social effects are still to be felt. I say it again, this period is not going to be fondly remembered in the annals of schoolboy rugby.
@meadows: DHS, Glenwood and College had 21 years old’s in the 60’s. My dad said some guys would ‘plug’ up to 4 times to play 1st team rugby again, some were just that thick. Mansfield and other schools were even worse. There was no regulation at all, you played what arrived on the Sat, be it men or boys…
@QC86: Do you know for a fact 6 players were ‘bought’? Do you know for a fact that none of the parents approached a few schools? I’m talking facts not grapevine stories…
@oldschool: You are quite right that it changed from year to year and that it eventually was abused.
Unfortunately the 90’s, with the exception of the late 90’s debacle, are the decade that I have the least insight into. My points on the issue are simply that;
– PM was not conceived as as a way to strengthen the 1st XV – that it was eventually abused to do so is self evident.
– the abuse was stopped when it threatened the relationship with Hilton.
– the U18 ruling for Craven Week and first HM’s agreements only acme into effect in the mid 2000’s but which time PM “abuse” had stopped at MHS.
– Many PM’s over the years were guys who had finished at 17 and turned 18 in their PM year as your example of the ’92 KC side illustrates
– IMO the likes of DHS, College and Glenwood had as many 18 and even 19 year old’s in their 1st XV’s – certainly back in the 70’s.
as an anecdotal example of how PM was intended to work a mate of mine’s son finished at MHS in 2004 at 17 and did a PM at Kearsney as MHS had stopped offering it. He happened to be a rugby player and represented KC that year but I know that that was not the intention of doing a PM year.
@GreenBlooded: Totally agree with you. Success attracts stars and Glenwood’s success has attracted more interest from around the country. So when a boy does move, even if his parents pay the fees, others ‘assume’ it’s a poach…..just weird, without even knowing the details. It’s maybe linked to jealously or that it’s an attitude of ‘how can Scumbilo High attract good sportsman’, not sure……..but double standards exist…
@oldschool:
That 91side from MHS had some decent PMs , Zungu, Davidson, Kerr, Wesson , Harvey ( he was a brilliant fly-half) – there were also some pretty decent non PMs in that side – Ireland , Butcher, Cooke, Williamson, Bates and Benkenstein.
I think the only match they lost in KZN was the return fixture vs Hilton and then they lost to Paul Roos.
@noordwes: Thats not recruitment [ poaching ] that is development boet,big diffs.that is giving some okes out in the sticks a chance to better themselves,not going to GK and buying 6 okes that are already playing in tier 1 schools rugby teams.
@meadows: Post matric might not have started out with bad intentions but by the time I was at school it was pretty much sports matric and it was far worse than the recruitment issues of today. In many cases a top player who was between the ages of 18.5 and 19 yo joined a new school for just one year and the main reason was sport. Back then u19s could play CW and that opened the doors to university and tech bursaries/scholarships as a huge incentive and it helped to have a couple of undergraduate credits as well. Immediately after the phasing out period of PM was over in about 2008, virtually all schools stopped offering PM.
@meadows: Agree with 90% of your post, but from 91 to about 96 the Post Matrics at Hilton and Michaelhouse certainly did help them and it was men vs boys. Our little 17 year olds vs massive men, it was frightening. I just need to dig out my team lists from then. Glenwood introduced PM in about 1996 when we had 3, it went up to about 6 in 1998 and they had to be Under 19. So glad it was abolished as it was really boys wanting to play 1st team again or who were 2nd team in matric and wanted to get the glory. They disguised it as a study year by doing Unisa courses……a good mate of mine was one of them…
@meadows: do some investigation into the 91 team at house …. I think 7 PM played ….. it changed from year to year , however , I do believe that many PMs came back to school to play rugby … and at school boy level back then 3/4 players made a massive difference in a 1st xv …… however , I do agree that the PRVTs had to get in PMs to be able to compete with the 19 yr old lads from the state schools .
KC introduced PM in 92 , whereby we had a lock (hunt), an 8 (tedder …TTs dad) and a 15 (Halstead ..Trevors older boet) these okes helped our side to a great season losing only 2 games from 18 …DHS 7 5 and College 13 9 …
Even though all 3 were only turning 18 in PM they added massive value and experience , so looking back to the days when KC did not have PM we lost many games by a few points to sides that had PMs , which I believe was all the difference as those few lads would turn a game .
Last weekend i watched the Beeld Final for small schools.At u/14 level there were a 12 and 13 that was very good.But if they stay in that school they wont play rugby to their potential.I wish I have a number of someone at a big school like Garsfontein or Waterkloof to get this players in those schools.The downside is that without this players that team will never ever be in any final again.Recruitment is not just bad.
@beet:
“The sad thing is that it took so long for schools to band together and drum up enough support to eliminate post-matrics.”
Post matric was never conceived or intended as a means to bolster the 1st XV. For the vast majority of its time PM (or 6th Form) was made up mostly of guys who had either finished school a year younger or required a bridging year to do A Levels for example before going on to study abroad. I did a quick survey (hardly scientific I know) of mates across years from the 70’s & 80’s and generally PM consisted of 12-15 boys of whom between 1- 4 were 1st XV rugby players.
Remember that back in the 70’s the usual age at which most finished school was 17. Notwithstanding this my recollection of most of the Craven Week sides of that era is that the average age was at least 18 with a few 19 year old’s in the mix. Mike Barker was certainly 19 in ’78 when he played SA Schools as was Danie Gerber in ’77 when he played SA Schools for the 3rd time, along with Buller Lindsay from College (not sure how old he was that year – 21 perhaps? :mrgreen:).
The reality is that MHS’s (and Hilton) PM’s IMO did not provide any “boys against men” age advantage in that era which I think that you will find is borne out in the results against the likes of DHS and College.
All of that said there is no doubt that the PM system at MHS was abused in the late 90’s culminating in ’97 or ’98 (if memory serves) in the Grey Bloem influx, funded by an individual, and the return fixture with Hilton being scrapped. The outcry and pressure to review the exercise came primarily from the MHS community in the context of the historic relationship with Hilton and it was never repeated.
Post matric continued until 2004 but returned to it’s original purpose. By way of example in 2003 6th form still consisted of around 12 boys of whom only 1 was a 1st XV rugby player.
I’m not sure if this has been posted but Gary Teichmann and John Allan have made some comments about this matter too
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Ex-Boks-talk-on-school-dispute-20140826
@star: “What is considered unacceptable is jumping fences at Grade 10 and causing consternation on both sides.”
So you will agree then that the boy who moved from DHS to Westville in Gr 10 and the boy who is about to move from Glenwood to Westville 3/4 of the way through Gr 10 are both unacceptable?
@beet: “I respect a parent’s decision but it does not preclude me from labeling various recruitments as poaching.”
It seems that the process behind labeling is very simple: “If the destination is Glenwood then it was poaching.” I’m not having a go at you – but this seems to be the feeling of many and I just don’t understand why. Glenwood’s rugby star is very much on the rise – and it makes sense that this would, righly or wrongly, attract rugby players of their own accord who feel they are not getting enough where they are.
@beet: Boy’s do not only hear about other schools through recruitment agents or dodgy headmasters. Boy’s talk to each other. They play club rugby together. They are permanently on social media. And the discerning rugby player and his parents are very aware of which school is doing what. So if a parent decides to move his kid from school to school for perceived additional rugby value (or any other value for that matter) – there should be no problem with that. And good luck trying to put a stop to it – I think the constitution may be very difficult to challenge on this one.
My question is this: Why is it that when a boy moves from any other school to Glenwood – perceived as a rugby academy by many – it is immediately assumed that there was poaching behind it? How do people know the circumstances behind every single move? But when a boy moves from DHS to Westville – there is nothing said? When a boy moves from Glenwood to Westville – there is nothing said? But when a boy tries to move from DHS to Glenwood – when we KNOW that his father initiated the move – the world comes crashing down. How many of these so called ‘poached’ players at Glenwood were actually poached, and how many moved due to a discerning player and his parents thinking “Wow – these guys are really pro with their rugby and they are having great success in their matches as well as provincial and national representation. I think that’s where little future Eben Etzebeth should go”?
I know I sound like a stuck record here – but I’m going to keep banging on about double standards for as long as I have to.
@GreenBlooded: I respect a parent’s decision but it does not preclude me from labeling various recruitments as poaching.
An important consideration is did the headmaster of the prospective school contact the headmaster of the existing school to inform him of the situation before the move occurred. However even in the recent Paarl Boys High case this action seemed to do little to convince many that all was above board. This may have been partly due to a delay in communication until the school holidays started. Although again it could be argued that this strategy was used to protect the player from a backlash at his school. Which again could be counter-argued by saying it was a strategy designed to ensure the player was not influenced to stay.
Past examples suggest that the no.1 fear of a poacher is that the player decides not to move. So that’s why they almost always advise players/parents to keep quiet ahead of the move.
@kosie: To my knowledge bursaries are paid from other sources than school fees. Ploegskaar mentioned some of the sources. However, if parents agree at an official meeting that school fees may be used for bursaries, it can be done. Also, the norms and standards of the Schools Act determines that cross subsidisation (bursaries) is allowed as long as it is not a blanket cross subsidisation (full payment). The Schools Act also does not prohibit bursaries granted from school fees.
And the school spending the most on bursaries – it is common knowledge who that is.
@ GB- It is totally acceptable- That is why your analogy of being half pregnant is misplaced as there are no absolutes here. What is considered unacceptable is jumping fences at Grade 10 and causing consternation on both sides .
Let us take your U16s for example. You had the most provincial reps at Grade 8. By Grade 10 you came from behind to draw with College and Westville. You suddenly now feel the need to go to Selbourne , Eg Jansen, Menlo Park ect to top up. Is that the only way you can be no 1.What about the highly rated conditioning and rugby programs in place. How hollow must future possible victories be. Hilton must be reading this and nodding quietly. That is 4 provincial boys that we currently know about and it amazes me of the arrogance involved. Even with all the negative publicity GW will continue on course. At least take a breath and a step back to contemplate.
@GreenBlooded: In that scenario 3 things I’d like to elaborate on:
“He hears about School Y and School Z who could do a much better job of ensuring his boy get’s his career path to green and gold glory”. – He hears this because parties earning commission or a salary from School Y and Z have both approached him and provided a convincing sales pitch in an attempt to lure him to their school.
“He moves … on scholarship”. The new school is somehow able to make this offer to a player they did not budget on taking in. Amazing! Yet when it comes to paying for bus trip tours etc existing parents have to pay up because the school can’t fund it
“They all live happily ever after” They may live happily but at some point the reality has to set in that the years following school are as important, if not even more important than whatever the school provided as part of a far-fetched promise that this would lead to rugby success after school. Explaining how kids from tier-2 schools make it to Springbok level just a few years after high school while those who had access to so called world class school facilities disappear into rugby obscurity, remains a huge challenge for sales pitchers.
@Ploegskaar: Yeah so you would literally have to haul a headmaster or Gov. Body Rep in front of a grand jury and make him testify under oath to determine the magnitude of bursaries/scholarships that are not recorded in the school accounts.
That’s why I am very wary of a statement that says the boy’s parent is paying his way or the school has not offered the boy a bursary. It’s very easy to provide selective information.
@kosie: For the last time, school bursaries as a percentage of total bursaries, are miniscule. Outside bursaries are applied via various vehicles including OB trusts, companies and individuals, that function separate from but parallel to the schools. Fees get paid in on a student number, can be done anonymously, as opposed to the recipient of a traditional school bursary that does not pay school fees/is subsidized from school fees.
@Bonthuis: just an FYI really watched 5 Glenwood games this year and 3 Westville, live in KZN now….looking forward to next season. Glenwood will struggle but will still be a tough nut to crack…
@GreenBlooded: happens quite a bit. Maybe school X doesn’t have the boys mates or a teacher they dislike or another personal issue. Why can’t the boy move, it’s a free country with freedom of choice. It’s going to be a very tough one to manage. So many other factors that could cause a move but it looks like a purchase…
@Bonthuis: much better :-)
Here is a scenario to consider – it happens often. There is a well know case in KZN with an U16 boy.
Promising rugby player goes to school X in Grade 8 (with or without scholarship). At the end of Gr 8 or halfway through Gr 9, Daddy decides that his future Springbok is not being groomed well enough at school X and believes that his Bok Jersey may be in jeopardy as a result. He hears about School Y and School Z who could do a much better job of ensuring his boy get’s his career path to green and gold glory. He moves him to School Y or School Z on scholarship. They all live happily ever after.
Is this recruitment? Is School Y or Z at fault? Does the boy have to stay at School X and be unhappy for the rest of his school career – gazing longingly at the lucky okes at the other schools – just to keep School Y and School Z out of the headlines?
@Grasshopper: Okay, Purchasewood! You like that?
@Djou: I would love to know which school spends the most on recruitment as % of their total students. I think we will be surprised.
I think the easiest way to address the recruitment/ bursary issue will be for the education department to make it a requirement for schools to disclose their recruitment and bursary budgets to all parents. Presently the amounts are lost in expenses or stated as unrecoverable.
At least then the paying parents will know what they are paying for. If they are happy with the cross subsidising fine. If not questions will be asked.
@GreenBlooded: Oops! I am sure he will give it serious consideration! But he unless he has tens of millions available every year, he will find it difficult.
Nevertheless, in the interest of nor provoking anyone, I retract everything I wrote!
@Djou: PLEASE don’t make comments like this: “Glenwood will not match Menlopark when it comes to “recruitment” – not even close!”. TK might take it as the next challenge……….
@Djou: well that is the catch22 situation for some Gov schools, if they don’t perform on the sports field the battle to attract students…especially those stuck in declining areas. Look at DHS let sport slip and now battling back….
@Grasshopper: Yeah, you wouldn’t have heard of them. Only 26 years old. Academics was everything, till they lost by more than 100 points to Waterkloof in 2010 – that contributed to an outflow of learners.
And this caused the SGB to take the decision to become a school that provides the total education experience, including on the sports fields. So they turned things around in a matter of a year. Just shows one can succeed with an alternative programme.
Heard that they wanted to go to Glenwood to learn how things are done there. Don’t know whether it happened.
@Djou: no issue with that policy at all, grade 8 is fair game! And if it helps PDI kids then even better. It certainly has put Garsies on the map. Before 2011 I had never heard of the school..
@Grasshopper: Yes they do! But they can’t compete with the money at Menlopark, Waterkloof and other schools.
However, most people don’t understand their recruitment programme. It stems from a decision of the School Governing Body in 2011 to start a transformation process and provide PDI kids with a chance. But rarely any PDI-kids up north play rugby. So they recruit a limited number from grade 8 in the Boland region.
Up to this year no u.13 Bulls Craven Week player went to Garsies – all went to Affies, Waterkloof and Menlopark. Heard there may be some coming in 2015.
Funny thing is that Garsies u.14 team, without Craven week players, made it to the final of the Beeld trophy where they lost 27-15 to Monnas (with a whole team full Craven week players).
@Djou: doesn’t Garsies recruit too, especially from the Boland? Just asking…
@Playa @Grasshopper @Gungets: Up north it is no secret that Menlopark is the major “recruiter”. And it does not matter whether the boy/girl is in grade 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and it does not matter whether it is January or September and it does not matter from which school the boy/girl is recruited.
Glenwood will not match Menlopark when it comes to “recruitment” – not even close!
Boys’ parents are offered cash and cell phones and almost everything they want.
However, if you don’t perform at Menlopark, they just as quickly (as they recruit) kick you out, or ensure that you lose your bursary and then hunt the next target.
This poor boy played Bulls Craven week u.13 and did not want to leave Garsfontein, but his mother insisted. He could not adjust to the “snobistic environment” and eventually was recruited by Glenwood. He has good skills though and Glenwood should be able to use him fruitfully next year.
@Gungets Tuft: is that a large fellow who ran an infamous camp a while back….
@Djou: No coincidence that the main “recruiter” at Menlo was at Glenwood till fairly recently??
@Djou: Heard something along those lines…..seems his parents are not sure where to go either…
@Djou:
@Grasshopper; You aware of Garsfontein u.16 centre who was “recruited” by Menlopark during May 2014 (just before Garsfontein vs Menlopark match), but when the new term started he was not in Menlopark anymore! He is in Glenwood. Apparently a very good cricketer as well!
@star: All good valid points, however Glenwood certainly are not the ‘pioneers’ of recruitment after grade 8, many others have done it way before Glenwood ever did. In all honesty Glenwood have probably recruited a max of 20 boys after grade 8 in the past 3 seasons. To me that is 20 too many but not too late to stop now. The KZN Headmasters just need to meet and agree no recruitment after grade 8, it’s easily monitored as the schools can check team sheets each year. I agree about skills to a degree, I coached in the UK and the schools rugga is nowhere near as quick or skillful as here. The England Under18 side includes biys who have left school at 16 and gone onto playing club rugby with men, that is why they are up there. If you watched the PRG vs Grey game, there were some amazing skills on show.
@star: Good analysis – I agree that your points 3 & 4 seem to be the proverbial straw. As you point out the margins against Westville were similar.
Your point about the emphasis on “physicality” at the expense of skills development that seems to be endemic to the “win at all costs” approach developing in our schools rugby will IMO be to the detriment of our game. As a country we lag NZ and Australia in skills levels (I suspect that the average NZ tight forward handles better than many of our backs) and it will get worse if not addressed.
Danie Craven felt very strongly about this which is why he insisted that Craven Week should not be a competition with a winner. He was fiercely competitive but felt that schoolboys needed to be allowed and encouraged to take risks in order to develop the skills necessary to succeed in senior rugby.
@ Hilty- yes that side was very good and gave Westville a good run at home. All things being equal we should all be able to look forward to some competitive rugby next year. GWs backline will be good but they could battle at front row. Let us wait and see who turns up next season before getting too exited about the anticipated match ups.
I told my boy that before he completes his schooling he must have played on all the great local pitches.( and have a story or 2 to tell). It is sad that a raft of GW and Hilton boys will not be able to tell stories of Gillies or Dixons respectively. That is one of the unfortunate consequences of this saga.
@Hilty: @GreenBlooded: @Grasshopper: I was surprised when, while on the road, I tuned into RSG to listen to the 13h00 news broadcast, and the GW/Hilton saga actually made the news! No fingers were pointed at all though, very balanced, unbiased reporting. Mention of allegations of poaching (“afrokkel”) of other schools’s players etc were discussed.
@Anti Green: Hilton will have a very strong side next year as their u16 of last year cleaned up and only lost by a penalty to GW last year in the last play of the game.
GW will not be as good next year as they dont have the depth that they have had the last couple of years and I can count their special u17 players of 2014 on one hand.
Given my knowledge of the calibre of gentlemen involved, I am positive that this decision would not have been taken lightly and would have involved substantive input from across the spectrum of stakeholders.
He has subsequently received the required conditioning to the point where he is in the SA 7s set-up. I honestly believe that the emphasis at school level should be on skill levels which would bring into the fold more boys who might be younger or not fully developed but have the necessary rugby brain. The overemphasis on physicality means that they are lost sometimes for good.
Gungets says he was surprized that the Wright saga ” didn’t blow the windows out”. I think it actually has as it has possibly led to a great deal of introspection as to the alien path they had embarked upon and the sustainability of it( not just from a financial point of few which is again a red herring). They have looked over the precipice and are not comfortable with the outcomes crashed at the bottom.
To those that have attacked Hilton’s behaviour as cowardly and against the basic tenets of all that is expected of fine young men , I would say it shows more courage to stand alone on a personal principle then hide amongst the majority.
To all those that refer to history and the fact that they had previous lost but learnt and got better , I think they are missing the point completely. This is so much more than about results it is about a process and the only historical issue of relevance is the post matric saga and we all know how that went and thankfully ended.
The increase in the possibility of injuries would be a direct result of the widening gap created by 2 different philosophies.
The question then remains is why pick on GW. GW Ists and U16a teams racked up ( 66 + 54) 120 points against Hilton. Westville did exactly the same( 59 + 61). I personally feel it is a combination of factors
1) GW are the most aggressive recruiters at U13 level and because they have the most provincial players the boys by default will be bigger. I remember my son playing U14A against GW a few years back and hearing the words it is “boys against men”. I also wonder what the weight differential was when College U14a shipped 95 points against GW. This might create a skewed perception of GW
2) GWs conditioning programs are far more intense and some might feel a bit excessive. I remember my nephew who was at House commenting on the fact that they were months behind GW in that regard. The fact that House ended number one that year in KZN proves that skill and rugby acumen sometimes hold sway.
3) Top down win at all/any costs mentality. I think it was Grassy who said he had heard there was a headmaster in Durban that had given an instruction that his school had to be number 1 at any cost. The problem is therefore clear by definition. The costs include behavioural issues and we have already heard of altercations between GW and Affies and College. It all starts from the top I am afraid.
4) Poaching players from other Tier 1 schools post Grade 8. I think this is the straw that breaks the camels back for many people. The belief is that you should back your initial recruitment strategies, rugby programs/coaches and most importantly your boys. By poaching you are undermining all of that. GW are the pioneers in this regard and have also not been scared to venture far and wide .
I think the first 2 points are acceptable and are the benchmark that some coaches have spoken about. The last 2 points are what will start the new divide and realignment on common philosophies. We can thank Hilton for bringing this to the surface
On a positive note I watched the Westville /GW soccer match on Saturday and before the game even began all the boys lined up and gave each other a handshake and pat on the back . Sometimes us adults can learn a lot from such basic acts and when we are prepared to get off our own pedestals.
@GreenBlooded: Interesting stories indeed. Going to be some drama next time out I suspect …
Ive been out of the mix for a while and Im not sure that I agree with Hiltons decision. As a parent of a 1st team player this year its been a hard year for the boys and even more so for my boy who had the privilege of playing 1st team last year as well.For those that were at last years game against GW will know that it was very close at 9 each with 7 min to go when GW scored twice to make it 19-9. Hilton have alot of very good u17 players this year as did MH last year and I believe that they will be right back up there next year.We have our rugby dinner this weekend and Im looking forward to hearing exactly what Hiltons coaching staff have to say regarding this matter.
@Gungets Tuft: Speaking of weaners and girls boarding schools – I hear the annual dash took place a few nights ago. Some interesting stories……
@GreenBlooded: Any boarding school. In fact, even less at a girls boarding school. I see zero marketing potential in the term, but what would I know. In my world it just means a short tow rope …
This might be worth a read , in light of the ‘semi-professional’ rugby programmes that some schools have put in place.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11054108/Maybe-its-time-schoolboys-gave-hands-off-rugby-a-try.html
@Far Meadows: Yep, same as Glenwood, always offered kids bursaries and scholarships since I can remember, they just don’t have official names. Maybe they should for transparency, so the Kevin Curran bursary for Tennis, Greg Nicol bursary for Hockey etc etc..
@Grasshopper:
MHS have offered these scholarships from before I was at school in the 80s. I would hardly describe it as ‘recruiting’ , it is part of their normal admissions process . Kids apply for the scholarships and they are awarded on a merit basis.
This is from the MHS website:
Criterion
Scholarships are awarded to boys of outstanding ability entering Michaelhouse in E Block (Grade 8), or in the case of a Music Scholarship, awarded in either E Block or C Block (Grade 10). Scholarships are valid for the five year duration (or three year duration in the case of certain Music Scholarship awards) of a boy’s career at Michaelhouse, subject to an acceptable level of performance being maintained.
Academic Scholarship
Candidates who wish to apply to write the Academic Scholarship examination at Michaelhouse must have achieved an aggregate of 80% or more at the end of their Grade 6 year.
Qualifying candidates will be advised of examination arrangements by 10 March 2014.
Examination: Saturday 29 March 2014 from 07h30
Sports Scholarship
Candidates invited for a sports assessment at Michaelhouse will be selected on the following criteria:
•Highest level of representation in one or more sport
•Cross section of sports played
•Level of commitment to sport
•Sportsmanship
@Gungets Tuft:
And definteley NEVER in the context of a private boys boarding school……… 
Where is ‘Bonthuis’? Still sleeping? I miss his attacks on me and Glenwood, they give me my daily ‘chuckle’ fix…
@Far Meadows: So the privates are also recruiting at grade 8 level, just not in the same numbers. This I know Kearsney did agressively in the 90’s….so why is it such a huge issue now? Surely if I school can offer many bursaries, good on them they obviously doing something right. Kids being unofficially funded by ‘angel’ investors probably happens everywhere, Glenwood just seem to have a few ‘angels’….still think it should only happen at grade 8 though..
@Far Meadows: ‘Weaner Scheme’
Don’t …….. EVER ….. use that expression in the USA. I promise to never mention it to any of the less charitable members of our school sports community …
@Gungets Tuft:
Regarding the bursaries , the ones listed are the official ones awarded by the school – there are definitely a lot more beneficiaries of financial assistance than those listed – for example I know that the Midlands Branch of the MHS Old Boys Club assists at least one kid a year ( from the Midlands ) through the proceeds of their ‘Weaner Scheme’.
@Far Meadows: Lot’s of Merchiston kids getting bursaries to House this year – and I know of another from Hillcrest area. It’s not a dig, I smaak House, you are joint second of schools I support, but I reckon there are a lot more bursaries and scholarships on the list than you know about – quite possibly not on the House books, being private or company scholarships?
http://www.pmbfever.co.za/173986/news-details/merchiston-scholarship-winners
FIFTEEN Merchiston Preparatory School pupils have been awarded scholarships to the following high schools (front, from left) Siyanda Mkhize (Michaelhouse), Luc Pousson (Michaelhouse), Thomas Dixon (Hilton College), David Godleman (Maritzburg College), James McFarland (Maritzburg College), Kheta Khoza (Michaelhouse) (middle, from left) Jarrod Du Plessis (St Charles), Chad Fortmann (Maritzburg College), Thamsanqa Zakwe (Michaelhouse) (back, from left) Singata Jolwana (Hilton College), James Moodie (Michaelhouse), Trent Le Roux (St Charles), Liam Fourie (Michaelhouse), Anele Nzimande (Maritzburg College) and Luc Robinson (Maritzburg College).
@Grasshopper: You missed Lady Frere then :-)
The main Transkie road is instructive … Idutywa, Butterworth, Mt Frere .. even a lot of Mthata …
If you stop in McClear then you need to be at a little coffee shop on the left hand side, leaving McLear, just before you take the right fork under the bridge.
If you do try the chicken dishes, then a mildly curried Walkie-Talkie is the way to go. Cows head, the lips and the fillets just behind the ears are the business ..
@Playa: Yep, I had to stop in Maclear, wow now that was an eye opener, no toliets operating in any of the shops and stations. I was supposed to head for Matatiele but took a wrong turning, ended up going through some very interesting towns. Dead chickens hanging up and cows heads etc….
@Playa: True, true….Main street in Claremont & Wynberg is like a circus! Taxis doing their own thing and people crossing the street.
@Gungets Tuft: Yep, I did attend 3 festivals over the years, just seen the decline….but the same can be said for Maritzburg. The walls are keeping the riff raff out. Scumbilo isn’t exactly safe either…..but I would prefer to be able to ‘escape’ to Gateway & Umhlanga than be stuck in a farm village…
@Grasshopper: Fair enough. What I am saying is as an out-of towner, I can understand you not wanting your kid to board at a school in a ‘dodgy’ town. As a local, it is totally different. Majority of QC and Dale boys are dayboys.Most of the boarders are from even dodgier towns.To counter your original statement, I’d say I understand a city raised parent holding that perception, but as a person who grew up in such towns and schooled there, I can safely say that I have the reality of what it’s like.The streets of KWT and QTN are a much more comfortable walk than Main Road Wynberg, Rondebosch, Mowbray & Observatory.
I mean played 28, lost 20, won 5, drew 3…..pretty one-sided. Glenwood stuck it out and aimed to improve which they did later on….
@Grasshopper: With a daughter at Rhodes, and having stayed in Grahamstown a few times in the last 2 years, the town is no worse or better than the roads around College, DHS, Glenwood or even the leafy suburbs. Some of the College boys will talk with hushed voices of the walks they undertook when playin KES this year …
Edit – No sooner had I pressed submit than a Whattsapp arrived form the Girl-Child saying “Water problems again” .. So the schools are great, they might need to wash in the pool ….
The top end of Grahamstown, from the central church up to the memorial is as safe as any precinct in SA. As for the schools, eeisch. St Andrews, Kingswood, Graeme, DSG, Victoria – I can’t think of a small town more spoiled for choice.
All said – Grahamstown has some serious service delivery issues – water and electricity being the main ones, last year and this year, turning on the tap has taken on religious significance with the levels of faith required
Glenwood vs Hilton (1st 25 years). Some very tough snotklaps there, especially considering tries were worth virtually nothing back then. 20 points difference was probably the equivalent of 50 these days….
1915 L 0 – 46
L 3 – 34
1916 L 0 – 18 (2nd XV)
1921 DNP
1922 L 0 – 12
1923 L 0 – 6
W 13 – 8
1924 D 10 – 10
1925 D 6 – 6
W 18 – 0
1926 L 0 – 29
1927 DNP
1928 L 0 – 29
1929 L 0 – 21
1930 L 3 – 36
1931 L 0 – 34
1932 L 6 – 36
1933 W 14 – 11
1934 L 0 – 42
L 3 – 26
1935 W 9 – 8 (H)
L 9 – 18 (A)
1936 D 11 – 11 (A)
W 9 – 8 (H)
1937 L 6 – 27 (H)
L 3 – 23 (A)
1938 L 3 – 44 (A)
L 17 – 20 (H)
1939 L 11 – 19 (H)
L 9 – 28 (A)
@Playa: Yep, went through Grahamstown too, granted the ‘dodgy’ end of the town. I am aware all the schools there are very good, but as the surrounding area declines it’s tough to keep the schools as they are too. Just saying as a parent I might not like my kid walking the streets there after school, that is all.
@GreenBlooded: You’ll find some devastating mismatches in Under 15B and under 16B games
The Monday edition of the Mercury newspaper pretty much covered what we had discussed above.
The only new points of interest in the article are comments from Noel Ingle in his capacity as KZN High Schools Rugby Association chairmen. Here’s the extract:
“Ingle disputed the claim that Glenwood had become too professional.
‘What they may be doing is improving their system and the condition of their players,’ he said”
There was also mention that the provincial headmaster’s forum would take place next month.
@Grasshopper:
“After having driven through KWT and Queenstown in the past month if can see why kids want to leave….eish like Nigeria! ”
That is a very juvenile statement. Have you driven past Grahamstown lately? Not exactly Ballito, but have you assessed the likes of VG, Graeme, Kingswood, St Andrews and DSG? Come on, the state of a town has nothing to do with the quality of the schools in them.You can do better than that.
@GreenBlooded: And add to that KZN representative teams.
@beet: Following from this post and the Sunday Tribune article. Very simple rule which would nip it in the bud: “Thou shalt not play 1st team or A team unless you have been at the school for 2 years”.
@NW_Knight: Pros and Cons to this. More cons IMHO. Sport plays a massive role in holistic education and I think having it in the schools and managed by trained educators is the way to go. I know the Aussie system works like this – and look at the bad mannered, foul mouthed degenerates that their schools spew out. Not the way I’d like to see us go. Besides – what would happen to the Goldstones, Dixons, Meadows and Stott’s of this world? What would some of the schools do with their massive campuses?
Pro’s of course are that schools could focus totally on academics, rugby clubs could focus totally on rugby and backgammon societies could focus totally on that – the result being that all of those specific activities would probably strengthen in isolation.
@beet: Interesting article in the Sunday Tribune today on the complete overhaul of the commercial side of SARU – from schools right up to the Springboks. Food for thought. As far as schools are concerned – absolutely no financial incentive whatsoever for schoolboy rugby players – and in fact for club rugby players for the first 2 years. No contacted Springboks – only massive match fees. Some very interesting viewpoints. Most make a lot of sense.
Or we could do what a few other countries do – schools could stick to teaching and leave sports to clubs.
@Bonthuis: spelling isn’t your strong point…
Purschasewood…
@Grasshopper: Noel Ingle’s so-called “cronies” are just a handful of rugby representatives from a few schools. They basically all report to their respective headmasters and have very limited decision-making power.
The people that should be driving this process are the headmasters and the Governing Body/Old Boy Associations members.
It also cannot just be KZN itself. A national plan is needed. It’s pointless for our KZN schools to comply with a regulation only to find that every out of province school we come up against is at some stage in the arms race evolution. The playing fields must be leveled across the board.
@GreenBlooded: Ja, agree, I was just trying to clear the smoke of the out-of-province talk, it’s a red herring. But the so is a lot of the endlessly rehashed talk about Glenwood recruiting, bursaries etc. it anecdotal only. The real question, does Hilton’s story ring true. As I said way earlier in this debate, I’m not buying it.
A little walk through Hilton’s rugby performance over the last few years might be instructive, I don’t have all the results so can’t help there. You are spot on about their activities around recruitment, it still boggles the mind that the Wright saga didn’t blow the windows out. Then the BMH coaching saga, which might have had a decent result, but I still don’t think they were great that year, I think they got lucky against College. Now the BMH saga has run it’s course, some high profile KZN recruitments haven’t worked out, a new regime in the school and in the rugby, I think that the hierarchy at the school have overreacted to a bit of a klap this year. Perhaps a bit of pressure from current parents, the head has rolled over. I just wonder about the reaction of Old Boys, not known as the most tractable bunch … I suspect a hot switchboard, gate motor and mail server up in the mist belt this week. And I could be completely wrong …. not by a long stretch the first time for that
@beet: totally agree!
@Grasshopper: This Facebook post about the post matrics is so good.
The sad thing is that it took so long for schools to band together and drum up enough support to eliminate post-matrics.
I recall my days of playing against MHS and HC when they had post matrics and how much I resented them at the time because of it. Back then I really wished Kearsney had post matric to compete on an equal footing. We got it one year after i finished school and over the next few years a few govt schools followed suit. But the right answer all along was never “if you can’t beat ’em join ’em!”, it was introduce simple easy to follow rules to remove the incentive for boys to want to do post matric for reasons other than academics and it worked. I applaud Glenwood for the stand they took to bring the post-matric system crashing down.
With regards to professional rugby at school and player poaching, which I believe are as contrary to what SBR should stand for just as the PM system was contrary to the spirit of SBR, once again I believe the end solution is NOT the “can’t beat ’em join ’em!” but a simplistic set of national rules that remove the incentive for any school to want to spend copious amounts of money on recruits and/or remove the incentive for players to want to move schools for rugby recruitment reasons.
@GreenBlooded: spot on again! What is really weird for me is 2 years ago Glenwood needed a last sec penalty to beat Hilton at home, very close. Only this year has been a blow out. This injury bollocks is a smoke screen. Anyway, it really is more of a loss to Hilton than Glenwood. When Glenwood play Hilton half the teams don’t get a game. Glenwood will find another school keen to fill the gap. Hopefully Hilton return soon….
@Gungets Tuft: The problem I have with what Hilton have done is that it just doesn’t make sense.
Assuming that their ‘official’ statement is the real issue, i.e. a matter of Glenwood getting far too strong, therefore mismatches and injuries blah blah, then is stands to reason that they should drop the Westville and College fixtures as well. No-one in their right mind will say that College and Westville are not competitive with Glenwood. The scores don’t back it up. If we want to look at ‘the best in the country’ issue, then consider this:
Westville vs Grey in 2014: 20-32
Glenwood vs Grey in 2014: 12-29
College vs Grey in 2014: 20-46
Westville vs Glenwood in 2014: 15-32
College vs Glenwood in 2014: 21-20 and 27-14.
Westville vs College in 2014: 11-11
Not much between the big 3. Even against the ‘best in the country’ – the 3 are pretty even stevens. Next year, we might see Westville or College at the top – this year was a very good year for Glenwood. It will not happen every year.
So we have to assume then that their ‘official statement’ is not true, and that it is in fact a protest despite their claims to the contrary. So if their issue with Glenwood is poaching/recruiting – then they really have no room to talk, having poached 2 top players from Glenwood and one from Westville and being responsible for the biggest side-stepping of the HMA we have seen – bigger than Marne-gate in my opinion.
If the charge had been lead by Michaelhouse or to a lesser extent Kearsney, I could understand and sympathise. Hilton I’m afraid were a very bad choice to make the first charge in a crusade for morality and ethics.
@Grasshopper: The key point about all those Gauteng kids at Hilton and House is that they are paying their way. If that 50% of kids from the Big Smoke were on bursaries, and dropping right into the top teams, then they can be compared, but they can’t.
I get it that kids are going to Glenwood for their rugby program, but how many in the top teams are paying fees. Then, how many in the lower team have access to the Elite Academy, with the flexible school lessons, sponsored supplements, tutors to catch up on academics. Even the one eyed have to see that Glenwood are in a group of 1 in KZN. And that’s fine, but don’t look too far when responding to the type of statement Hilton are making, there is justification for the statement, even if many of us, me included, don’t think their stance is the right one. House and College have shown, this year, that despite their rugby program, their scouting and development, Glenwood can be beaten. I think it’s up the opposition schools to jack up the areas they can, conditioning and coaching through the age groups, without compromising the values that they hold dear.
@Grasshopper: Ha Ha – I was waiting for this. He was the saviour of SA rugby and our next captain, my comments were “playing behind a dominant pack, go forward ball, protection of the ball at the breakdown, with a good scrum half that gives him time and space, is one thing. Put him on the international stage where our forwards aren’t dominating, limited or no protection in the loose phases and a scrum half under pressure, suddenly time and space isn’t there and world domination disappears.” Not his fault, but rather an over excited expectation of a young player who needs some time. Will he be great, actually who knows
@Umgodoyi:
OK – understand your point.
Of course Glenwood are by no means the only bad-boys pillaging the EC of U13 school kids. Probably the only ones who are pillaging them AND making a success out of the venture. Doesn’t make it any less palatable for the folk down that way I suppose.
Where are those guys who said Pollard was our savior? I’m not convinced, let him play CC a bit…
@GreenBlooded: I never said anything about where kids come from of their own volition. If 200 kids want to come from Kingwilliamstown so be it, but don’t go and pillage what Dale, for example, might have nurtured, and feel proud of yourselves……this is the sort of activity that endears yourselves so much. College, as far as I’m aware have not built up their reputation stretching back over a century in this manner, and nor have Grey College, though am sure that both have pupils from outside Natal and the Free State. I doubt that MHS, HC and KC poach pupils from Gauteng schools, they simply have the facilities, both sporting and academic, and probably cultural that parents want their kids to experience. And these schools Old Boys often want to send their kids back to their old schools. GW has been around long enough for them to have done the same as MC, GC and even DHS which has fallen on hard sporting times probably due in part to a lack of sports grounds and amenities. I am not for a minute saying everyone else is squeaky clean but you reap what you sew, both good and bad, and what is preferable, in agricultural terms, is that the the weeds are overwhelmed by good crops and not vice versa!
@GreenBlooded: We all know half the kids from Hilton & Michaelhouse are from Gauteng so it’s OK for them to board at these schools but not Glenwood. Maybe it’s because Glenwood doesn’t have a helipad yet for parents to land on….not sure….same for other privates with kids as far as the UK & US attending, all OK. God forbid a Gov school look beyond their local suburb for kids…
@Umgodoyi:
“but if this includes kids from outside your catchment area, ie. Natal, then this is also wrong.”
Please can you inform us why Glenwood’s catchment area is Natal only and who got to make this determination?
Please can you also inform us whether Hilton / Michaelhouse / Kearsney’s catchment area is also Natal only? And if not why is there a difference?
Thanks.
@Anti Green: Just checked the 1991 result, lost 10-13 to Hilton, not exactly the ‘hammering’ you spoke of. In 1990 Glenwood won 13-8 and 1992 they won 17-0. In the full flight of post matrics and in Glenwood’s worst 5 years of rugby, we lost to Hilton 4 times in a row. See 1990 results vs Hilton below;
1990 W 13 – 8
1991 L 10 – 13
1992 W 17 – 0
1993 L 3 – 27
1994 L 7 – 10
1995 L 5 – 18
1996 L 9 – 22
1997 W 17 – 12
1998 L 26 – 28
1999 L 7 – 33
@Jimbo: Yep, and quite a few of the suppliers were from the leafy suburbs, it’s rife in all schools, especially amongst the vain boys wanting to attract girls…..little do they know their little weapon is getting smaller too..
@Gungets Tuft: Yep, I certainly hope it’s just a phase, Noel Ingle and his cronies need to step in here with some rigid rules on recruitment, otherwise all the long term relationships between the big 8 schools in KZN is going to be soared maybe forever. No man or headmaster is bigger than the school and it’s history, just like in football. This recruitment policy should apply in all sports too. Suddenly we will see the schools real strengths, eg where we were pre semi professionalism. The bigger the BE the better the school will be at sport. Recruitment within the KZN boarders should be open at grade 8 level…
@Jimbo: Mate if you are going to comment on performing enhancing drugs and alleged cover-ups – I suggest you start at home first.
@Grasshopper: Wrong. The “College of old” didn’t draw boys nationally. There might have been the odd Old Boys sons that came from outside KZN, but in general the boys were from PMB, when it was still a vibrant busy town, and the boarders from an area covering Harding to Newcastle, Greytown and up to Empangeni, down the Port Shepstone. The advent of kids from far and wide is a very recent thing, and even now the number of boys from outside KZN is diminishingly small.
As for Post Matrics, I think you find that College were one of the last to get on that wagon, and if memory serves it was a time of bitter division at College and probably hastened the departure of the headmaster at the time, a thoroughly decent man who taught and coached me at school. That period is a blot in history, just as this period is going to be once it has passed. These next few years are not going to be recounted with any pride.
@Grasshopper: The fact is that a significant number (like 50) GW boys were fingered by some dealers caught at the school last year. Those fingered were not tested but were ‘internally’ sanctioned. Doping out of season is surely to remain widespread throughout SA schools. Not only GW. By the time the season starts the juice will not show up in a test. It is destroying school rugby and the long-term health of many young men. The best conditioning programs are no substitute for juice. Each generation may be getting marginally bigger but rugby players at all levels are way ahead. The size of the players in the England vs SA junior final was astounding. There is little room left in rugby for players who choose not to juice at some stage of their careers. It starts at school!
Interesting post on Facebook from an ex Glenwood parent and committee member;
Some time back it was Hilton and Michaelhouse who moved into a ‘different league’ by introducing a Post-Matric year. The usual smoke screen was laid saying it was for ‘further education’ but it was firstly to enable these schools to pack their first teams with recruited stars and secondly it provided extra income without too much input from the schools by way of tuition.
Then it was the big Model ‘C’ schools who cried foul. These boys were too big. This was not in the spirit of schoolboy rugby. Schools banded together and threatened not to play them. ‘After all’ we said smugly ‘they need us more than we need them.’ Long and heated were the debates at our Board of Governors’ meetings as to what path we would take. The First XlV started to suffer heavy losses to the private schools and as other turncoat schools opted for the ‘post matric’ option.
The Headmaster was subjected to a barrage of angry calls from Old Boys each Monday morning as we continued to loose as weekends passed. The pressure told and at a Board meeting a proposal was eventually tabled to introduce our very own ‘Post Matric’ year. Not that the object was to win at rugby but ‘studies’ had shown ‘that boys who did this filler year always did better at University.’ All smoke and mirrors as the system had been in place only for a year or two and no boys would had completed University studies.
So for a few years (I forget how many) we had post-matrics floating about the school justifying their status as scholars by taking a few UNISA courses but really filling in their time from one Saturday to the next when they girded their loins to do battle for the School.
I think it was all eventually solved by imposing an age limit on players and the silly season came to an end. Things settled back to normal for a long time with only a few minor problems such as Terrance Parkin (Open Air School) swimming for us to the annoyance of DHS.
Reflecting on what I experienced as a Member of the Board of Governors of Glenwood, and with my own, and my Sons, school days long since gone it’s with a wry smile that I recall Henry Kissinger saying that ‘University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small.’ I think this equally true of (boys) schools where they often lose sight of their real purpose while they fret and fume about performance on the sports field.
@NW_Knight: The same can be said for Glenwood. Outside of the school between parents and the union they can’t control.
@NW_Knight: Thanks, interesting to know.
@Umgodoyi: my head is out if the sand, Glenwood do have many kids now from around the country wanting to go there, just like College of old year. To get to that point they needed to build a winning culture which recruitment helps. I actually believe they do not need to recruit anymore, they have built a culture that will naturally attract the best. Only those kids who need financial help to attend should receive bursaries. For the umpteenth time, recruitment after grade 8 is a compete no no in my books. The movement from primary school to high school is a natural point for parents to consider their options and 99% of schools go out of their way to promote and provide bursaries. I know I use Westville a bit as they seem to provide the most, around 75 at grade 8. There are no issues with this from other schools. They could probably offer 150 and no issues, at that point people just think good on them they can afford it. What needs to happen is that should be the rule, no bursaries after grade 8. Get your stock in early and cope from there. If one bursary kid leaves then he can be replaced. Maybe even stopping recruitment or bursaries to kids outside the province. It will require an auditor but will certainly stop all the finger pointing and animosity. Like post matrics were banned this simple rule can be implemented…
@McCulleys Workshop: What’s Northwood got to do with this? I can assure you, as someone who was very involved and knows the full story, that there was no union involvement in any form in the last 3 years (can’t comment before that, but I would doubt it). Don’t assume that because a number of top players are recruited that the union is involved.
@Grasshopper: you continually write about traditional or long term rivalry. GWs matches against Grey, Monnas, Affies etc are relatively recent, AND they are very expensive. Continue the way they are going and might be the only fixtures they will have. I feel that Hilton is the thin end of the wedge, and that GW would miss playing the TRADITIONAL Natal schools a lot more than they would miss playing GW. You have often mentioned “testing yourself against the best” but this is financially and logistically impractical. Taking this to its ridiculous conclusion would be to go beyond the annual Kobe festival and have the top SA sides ALL playing the top sides in Australia, NZ and the UK! Nothing wrong with the occasional tour though.
You also go on and on about “recruiting from G8” and how acceptable this is, but if this includes kids from outside your catchment area, ie. Natal, then this is also wrong. Winning at all costs is poor form and will eventually lead to more and more resentment …… already happening??!!
GC and MC have always done exceptionally well, not by recruiting, but with their structures and coaching all the way down from firsts and A teams to the lowest grades, and kids wanting to enrol there, and parents willing to send them there! And as you yourself remember they won close to 100% of all matches week in and week out, AND nobody spoke about boycotting them, unlike GW today. Pull your head out of the sand and ask yourself WHY. I have no agenda against GW at all and have many friends and relatives who are Old Boys none of whom have your attitude, or perhaps the attitude you convey.
What still begs answering is what Union involvement is there in the securing and placement of players in certain schools, like Glenwood, Northwood etc, and if so on what basis are they lured to Durban. Are there CW positions up for grabs, do the sharks provide bursaries or fund these transactions in any way or get other parties to fund these transactions. Maybe not and there is nothing to be transparent about. But I wonder. I get Hilton’s stance, not right or wrong, just a change in focus and priority. The fact that they participated in the hiring firing and rental of players under age overage drug fuelled or not is irrelevant, it seems they have changed their stance on the matter, this does not make it hypocritical. They are aligning themselves to values they feel offer the best outcome to their pupils.
@Anti Green: I think things will change less than you think. They are only dropping Glenwood, not all the tier 1 schools. Glenwood is not the only game in town … nor is it correct to think that competitiveness will wane with House, Wesrville, KC and College on the fixture list. What it is going to do is reintroduce the argument about the KZN number 1 rugby team. All sorts of discussion last year with Westville vs Glenwood called off, same again.
@Grasshopper: What ever the reasons for the withdrawal, it remains sad that a fixture running for all these years is no longer.
I fondly remember playing against Hilton. It was one of the annual highlights as a schoolboy in KZN. We rearly won but that was actually of less importance.
@Anti Green: yep, they will end up playing St Charles, St Henry’s, Clifton, George Campbell, Port Natal, St Stithians, St Johns, St Benedict’s & Parktown….a big step down….oh well!
@Grasshopper: Every kid knows what’s happening. They get to know whats what. If I was a master in charge of rugby. I would play Glenwood then you would know where you stand. Hilton can’t produce an amazing side and then want to challenge GW. From here on it’s finished for Hilton
@Anti Green: I wasn’t there, I started in 92. All those guys were the right age as far as I’m aware……in the 60’s and 70’s some of the ‘boys’ were 20! My dad was at DHS, he said a few failed 3 years…..
@Grasshopper: What I’m asking is if one thief, then don’t cry robber. You know Toppy was using older guys, let’s be honest now.
@Anti Green: sorry, not sure what you asking?
@Grasshopper: Was he officially 16 GW?
@Grasshopper: So that makes it okay. Then it’s fair game.
Would love to ask Kyle Cooper, Warren Whiteley, Fred Zeilanga, Franna Kleinhans and the under 21 reps their opinion….greet to see Kyle & Dale Chadwick are best mates, Westville & Glenwood can get on…
@Grasshopper: You got that wrong grassy – I have massive respect for Glenwood, the school’s upkeep is great, the boys generally have good attitudes and the results across the board are impressive.
As a coach, have many parents asking about high schools and if the boy is an exellent rugby player, the answer is always Glenwood, but IMO it’s not a perfect match for every kid.
That doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to have an opinion wrt to their late recruitment, like you, I’m against it.
@GreenBlooded: If you haven’t yet realised that comments to the press are almost always politically correct, then you clearly haven’t been around the block – speak to the same guys face to face and I guarantee you will get a different perspective.
To answer your question, absolutely not, for me the Glenwood fixture is a highlight of the season regardless of the result.
Our 2013 U16’s weren’t given a hiding so with normal progression it should be a decent match – all depends on how many imports have joined since then .. or should I rather say, how well the elite development programme has elevated the Glenwood players to a different level,
One of my most vivid memories was in about 1993, 16 year old Barrett Pardey running on as a reserve 1st team prop after playing under16A’s to scrum against this Hilton monstrosity, 19 and built like a brick shithouse…the poor guy did well but in the end was dominated by a man….Glenwood never withdrew after that…
@Anti Green: hmmm, maybe Dom Sjunka was 19 but the rest were 18 or below…
@beet: good points and as a very passionate old boy I would rather be liked and lose a few games than be hated and win most. I liked the old Glenwood, average for a few years then an amazing side every so often. I mean the okes from the Bluff, Toti, Queensburgh and Scumbilo are naturally tough, plenty around hence why Glenwood has always been a decent rugga school relying on these ‘animal’ type players in the forwards and less skills. I say it again, I hate recruitment after grade 8. Up until Marne-gate they were doing things legit, get the best in grade 8 and develop them. Now the management has got greedy, just step back to pre Marne-gate and the detractors will reduce, really simple. 2008 was a great ‘home grown’ side, it can be done.
@GreenBlooded: This is the problem in KZN, everybody wants to put on this hunky dory image yet all including Glenwood complain about issues behind the scenes. I’m not in the least bit surprised at the newspaper comments but lets hook each school representative up to a polygraph and then ask who’s really happy with Glenwood’s aggressive recruitment strategy and watch that needle go off the chart.
In Noordvaal they recently had a Tuks-Reeks meeting and at there the various schools officials were not afraid to lay their issues on the table for all to hear.
For what you’ve said yesterday, I’ll limit my answer to rugby. Yes give credit where it’s due, Glenwood has a good rugby programme. At the same time don’t kid yourself that a rugby player at Glenwood will go further than one at main govt school competitors College or Westville after school because of some perception that the Glenwood program is superior. No one other than your existing Glenwood community is buying into what you are saying. The evidence speaks for itself.
You are also right. No one is bothered about the school in 55th place who imports. They are not a threat except to their immediate rivals. If Northwood had recruited or tried to recruit their players from George Campbell, DHS, Port Natal, St Charles, Jeppe they would probably have come under the cosh. They got their star props from two small lower tier schools. Right or wrong – a different debate. Some of Glenwood recruits are from College, Selborne, EG, Eldoraigne – well established top tier rugby schools. A lot different than getting from boys from lower tier schools. Accept that for as long as the recruitment issue is frowned upon, Glenwood are going to take flak for it and accept that people have the right to form the opinion that Glenwood’s rugby success is driven by buying players and not developing their own. If they want to change this opinion, change their approach.
Also realise that schools like Westville and College may have initiated recruiting strategies of their own in an effort to keep up with Glenwood. We’ve seen enough articles about the arms race.
Regarding the jealousy factor. This I believe is human nature. We all have a degree of it in us and its definitely not limited to KZN. Top dogs have their detractors. Glenwood folks like yourself are not exempt to this. Your comments about Westville swimming gave you away last year. Does not make you a Westville hater but you should be able to relate.
College considered scrapping a rugby fixture vs Glenwood a few years back, DHS considered same, Westville scrapped their fixture last year, now Hilton are doing the same. There is a common element to the unhappiness. It’s convenient to say the other schools must do what they need to do – and again I feel you are right they must do as those Noordvaal schools did when they felt nothing to talk openly about things like u19 players and poaching of players – but at same time there needs to be some self reflection as well. Glenwood needs to ask themselves – what should we be doing to make sure these other schools don’t dump us.
@Grasshopper: Hopper you have it wrong, people don’t hate GW. They hate the Glenwood poaching system. I hate the GW system, 1 of my boys went through the GW system. My other son I’m removing from GW not because I hate the school, because the school is not what it stands for. It’s a pity as many lekker okes do come from and go to GW. Our house has always been full of GW lighties and they are lekker okes.
@Grasshopper: Hopper that post Matric thing Glenwood hated, they use to call us Balgowan Tech. We hammered your side in 1991 and you had guys the same age as us post matric’s. But we were called an under 20 side. Toppy was importing players from Border at that time. Please be fair when bitching.
@Pedantic: I don’t think it was 6, that was the rumour. I think it was actually 3, but who cares everyone hates Glenwood anyway.
@Pedantic: Ja – be careful about speaking about ‘we all’. Maybe get yourself a copy of today’s Weekend Witness and read what the top schoolboy coaches in KZN – yours included – have to say about it. Not one of them said anything about recruiting. All acknowledged Glenwood’s professional coaching and conditioning setup. Michealhouse was the only school that was non-committal.
Would you like to see KC pull out of the fixture next season? Would the KC players?
@Umtata: Grasshopper most certainly sees something wrong – he has commented on late recruitment on numerous occasions and has vehemently stated he is against it.
6 players from GK is massive, no matter how you look at it – it’s 40% of an Under 16 A-team being brought in to bolster the ranks. This after GW got 11 players selected in the KZN GK week!
Having said, that, both Hopper and GB will defend their alma mater to the death, regardless of whether they agree with what’s going on – nothing sinister in that, it’s simply their loyalty shining through.
To be honest, there isn’t any debate here – deep down we all know why Hilton pulled the plug and that is their prerogative – nothing is going to change Glenwood’s pursuit to be at the top and it’s going to take many more schools with balls to stop the rot.
@Grasshopper: And while I was trying to type that with chilly fingers – damn cold surf this morning – you confirm my thinking. If you think Glenwood, or any other school for that matter, is free of “spoon fed mommies boys” then you are walking around with your eyes closed. My advice is get over it, it is clouding your objectivity. Use it, don’t, no skin off my nose.
@Gungets Tuft: wow….got out the wrong side of the tow truck today. Yes, maybe because I grew up in a single parent home on the Bluff with no money, I know how tough it can be. Anyway, you have insulted me enough to even bother now….
@Grasshopper: Boet, read what you said, and very often refer the money. Westville affluence, “it’s the other way around the rich boys run for the hills…”, and contrast it to the so called blue collar nature of Glenwood. You are fixated about it. If I was a Hilton oke I would be taking offense. Most often you use money as the reason that others succeed, and as a credit that Glenwood succeed despite having no money. Examine ….
Quite unlikely we will bump into each other at P&S’s place, most Improbable I will find a reason to apologize for anything. Sorry. (Oops, just did, apologized for not apologizing …. does that count
)
@Gungets Tuft: huh? You saying I need a shrink etc, low blow. I grew up on the Bluff and fairly ok now, so I have worked my way up. I certainly have not been given a silver spoon and spoilt. Just don’t agree with spoon fed mommies boys…that is why I got on so well with College boys, not spoon fed…
@Grasshopper: Boet, don’t l
MC stopped the fixture against GB for similar reasons.
Every year we here about how great the coaching and facilities are at Glenwood but we also hear about the rampant recruiting at all age groups, year in year out.
Glenwood has more pupils than Selborne and Dale combined but still see the need to recruit at all age groups every year.
CLearly the GW old boys see nothing wrong as long as the 1st XV wins
@Tarpeys: Are you from East House? Massive get together next week end.
@GreenBlooded: Haven’t seen the article yet. Will get a copy. Hopefully a positive that will come out of this is home and away fixtures between Glenwood and Westville and strengthening of the relationship. In a short season this year Westville still had a weekend with no fixture. Playing more fixtures in Pretoria, Jhb etc. is not the answer. It is costly for parents and when transporting 25 odd teams there are many parents who struggle to fund two or more trips a season.
@GreenBlooded: not all that worried Sparky – enjoy your weekend now
@Gungets Tuft: jeez, even you are getting personal and below the belt, been hypnotized by the lynch mob and joined the frenzy! I expected more from you as I have respect for your comments…oh well, might see you at a Manning braai when Greg visits and you can apologise then…
@GreenBlooded: spot on boet, wasting our time with these okes…
@Roger: Don’t worry about me dude. Just keep a lookout for some other non-scholarship KES aquanauts that need some proper coaching. The Glenwood Elite Waterpolo and Swimming Academies are on the lookout for some decent neglected material to nurture into the national teams. Steve La Marque and Graham Hill will do the job.
These okes have a serious vendetta, nothing said about Garsfontein and the hundred other schools recruiting. They also talking like Glenwood has no history. At 104 years old Glenwood isn’t exactly a newbie, they actually started playing before many schools. After having driven through KWT and Queenstown in the past month if can see why kids want to leave….eish like Nigeria! Not sure why there is so much hatred. I mean kids leave EC for the Cape and Bloem all the time, no complaints. DHS has half of EC there, no complaints. Westville have Hudson Park recruits, no complaints. Just a vendetta against Glenwood….
@Westers: Agree 1000%…….Well said. I read Grant Bell’s comments in the Weekend Witness article on this whole palava. Respect!!
@GreenBlooded: that’s a well thought out, erudite and valid comparison – well done
@QC86: And the solution as you see it is to join a nameless faceless online lynch mob and take cheap shots at an organisation your knowledge of which is based not on fact but by hyped up allegations by other members of said lynch mob? Gotcha – thanks for the clarity.
@Grasshopper: Don’t count them as a percentage of all players – count them as a percentage of A team players. You might find numbers heading towards 30% of the team.
Both Glenwood and Westville need to put more emphasis on the lower teams through all age groups. That is why Glenwood take a hiding from GCB through most teams every year. It is this that makes a strong rugby school, not the first team results. Glenwood are following the wrong route to making themselves a strong rugby school in my opinion and Westville followed the same route this year. I hope Westville reassess their strategy and look at strengthening their coaching and conditioning structures for all players rather then recruit after G8.
@GreenBlooded: Do you think oke’s like us that truly love schoolboy rugby are just going to sit back and say nothing,while a school like Glenwood rips it to pieces.Think again boet Hilton is only the start.
@QC86: Why are you such a hater?
@Tarpeys: Jeez boet – I’m busy watching the All Blacks give the Aussies a hiding. I think the Aussies should consider pulling out of all fixtures with the All Blacks for the foreseeabe future. No merit for any of the players in what I’m seeing on SS1HD at the moment. And some of those Aussie girl scouts might get injured by those AB roid freaks…….
@Grasshopper: and what about the boy that played 3 games at KERF and then went home,so we now at 12,plus i heard 6 u16 players arrived after GK not only 3 like you said,ja as clear as mud,just the way Glenwood like it.
@Grasshopper: Glenwood also had post-matrics. Level playing field.
I also know a good shrink up Ballito way who can help out with this “rich/money/extra lesson fixation you have. The Glenwood bursaries are not sponsored by the Community Chest, so no shortage of money floating around south of the N3, even if some if it is drifting from north of the river.
@Grasshopper: You make it sound as if Glenwood were forced to play against the post matrics. It was a choice and that is what Hilton are doing, they are making a choice. Their choice is to take their own path instead of being dragged by Glenwood in another path. It’s decisions like this that will keep them going at the level they are at as an institution for another 100 or so years and schools with no tradition, strong roots and identity will sway with the wind and fade with the test of time.
@QC86: so that is 11 players over 4 age groups….shoot me!
@TheGoose: 100% agreed.
@beet: ‘My advice to schools like Kearsney, Michaelhouse and Hilton is don’t be stupid. Don’t spend millions trying to keep up with the ever increasing demands of a semi-pro rugby culture or give in to the market forces that drive it especially when you can’t determine where it will lead in the future. Rather channel all your energy into restructuring to make school rugby part of a controlled environment so that is serves the desired purpose while still allowing good players the opportunities to pursue the sport after school if they so wish to.’
Spot on.
@Grasshopper: and the Selborne boy with a full QK cricket bursary approached Glenwood,ja right,chaplain should be available soon boet hang in there.
@Grasshopper: Hopper – my daughter has just been accepted at Kingsmead for Grade 7 next year. V. impressed with the school.
@GreenBlooded: No I wouldn’t.
We used to get smashed by College and Glenwood in my years – 86-90. So I don’t think it is something completely new. The intensity of the semi-professional schoolboys has taken it up a notch though.
I see both sides of the argument and would encourage all the schools to see this as a nudge to increase the conditioning of all boys across all age groups.
However – should next year’s fixtures between Glenwood and KC, MH, WV, etc become bloodbath’s then 2016 needs a rethink.
@kosie: Thanks Kosie to get the whole truth out of any Glenwood oke is virtually imposible
and just for completeness LOL maybe they should buy a in house chaplain seen as they buy all their success already,
@Grasshopper: Check the team sheets again. Desmore played a number of games as a starter. Wildeklawer, etc. As I said I don’t wish to get involved in an out of province war.
@kosie: yep, both 2nd team players…
@Grasshopper: I don’t wish to get involved in an out of province war but Desmore and Kobbie joined Glenwood in the 3 rd term in gr 11. Just for completeness
@QC86: 3 and I believe they all approached Glenwood…
The 6 were, Koos Tredoux (grade 10), Vidima (grade 10, did play this year due to injury), Jonas (grade 9), McMillan Muller (grade 9), Klopper (grade 10) and Venter (grade 10)
@Grasshopper: and this year after GK ??
Let’s bring some perspective here, about 10 kids in the school after grade 8 were ‘bought’ out of 400 boys playing rugby, so 2.5%. This talk of buying whole teams is complete kak! The 3 boys chosen for SA schools this year were all at Glenwood from grade 8. Maybe you guys should get your facts straight before commenting. 6 out of the 22 squad arrived after grade 8, 3 in grade 9 and 3 in grade 10. Seems the grapevine has inflated things a bit….
@Roger: Roger how useless must the staff and kids be at Glenwood to have to buy all these players and then only be 5th or 8th depending on what ranking list you look at,in the country.How many games did they loose?spend millions on buying and to what end,it boggles my mind.Please tell me what the big picture is,for the life of me i can’t seem to see it.Selborne lost 3 games,did not spend a cent and we all as proud as punch,with a bit of in house shuffling we could have cut that down to one loss.
@Tarpeys: “Overaged Juicing Hulks”. Only happens at Glenwood then? Do you know that if this was war time the Hilton HM would be shot for dessertion?
if possible, get yourselves a copy of the Weekend Witness. This story has made the front page. there are comments from Grant Bell at Westville, Christo Wilkinson at DHS, Francois Lubbe at Kearsney and Ryan Strudwick at College. None of them are quoted as having a problem with playing Glenwood and all of them have said its up to the themselves to up their own game and will continue to play Glenwood. Hilton have chosen not to do this and that is fine. but all of the armchair critics who jump on the anti Glenwood bandwagon should maybe take it down a notch. If the other schools that Glenwood play are happy, maybe the problem lies with keyboard tough guys who like pointing fingers and making accusations with out any actual proof!
@Tarpeys: hmmm, another one with double standards. For 10 years Michaelhouse & Hilton had post matrics, 19 year old men vs boys, did Glenwood run or cancel, nope. We took our beatings like men, now it’s the other way around the rich boys run for the hills…
The more I think about it the more I applaud Hilton for their decision. If I know I’m going to lose and in the process have to tackle***who want to prove a point that is not rugby related then I’d rather not. Why must Hilton or any other school have to change its ethos and priorities in order to keep a meaningless activity in the greater scheme of things. Why must schools spend more time and money on conditioning, staffing and facilities on rugby. Why must Hilton follow follow Glenwood down a road of peril. Hilton have chosen not to be prisoners of some history that has been bastardized by another school’s ambition. Hilton have chosen to exercise their right to set and follow its own ethos and educational agenda. Fair play to them. Cheers, Glenwood, enjoy your days on the road.
@RBugger: yep I do but now based in Ballito KZN, a little warmer here ;-). Enjoy!
@grasshopper: u must be a fellow surfer, no one gets up at this time unless they surf! If so, head to Long Beach, Kommetjie, going to be cooking! On yay way right now, Sherry in hand, going to be a cold one
Typo forward…
Looking foreword to some Bonthuis verbal diarrhea around 12 when he gets up, should be fun! He adds a bit of laughter to my day.
@Roger: yep KES better hope Andile P isn’t playing, oh wait he plays Dolphins cricket already and busy with SA Schools cricket & hockey…Steve La Marque is a well respected coach and good man, why belittle him when you don’t even know him….classy from Hillbrow High…
@Roger: all SA schools players this year were at Glenwood from grade 8
@Roger: pot kettle, one word Scarra….hypocrites…
@Roger: @Roger: Wrong game
@GreenBlooded: but I’m pretty sure Whatisname and Whatisname are great coaches – good on them!
I see KES and Purchasewood are due to meet on the cricket field at the Michaelmas festival. The KES boys better hold onto their hats – and the coaches better hold onto the players – and everything else….
@GreenBlooded: hmmmm – I guess the 36 odd aquatic springboks (17 for waterpolo) that KES have produced were really poorly coached. Remind me again how many Purchasewood have produced? Whoops – sorry – my bad – you don’t develop and produce – you buy and produce – kinda like second hand car salesmen!
@Bonthuis: 8)
@Westers: Where are most of the Glenwood recruits coming from, are they KZN boys or North of the Vaal River?
@GreenBlooded: You obviously never read my posts regarding the Hudson Park recruits at Westville. I thought I was pretty clear in stating that it was totally unacceptable.
My view is that having to recruit beyond G8 is an indication of poor recruitment at G8 level and more importantly poor coaching structures through the lower level teams in the various age groups – as pointed out by various other bloggers here.
@GreenBlooded: That has been my question along the way, lower team best coaches needed. “A”teams are skilled, conditioned kids that need management. Sounds professional but it is.
@Anti Green: I read somewhere about the ‘bottom up’ approach at Grey College. The top coaching is applied to the E/F teams, they get better and put pressure on the C/D team players who in turn upskill and train harder to maintain their positions and put pressure on the A/B team players. The result is a very strong group all the way through. And one cannot argue that it doesn’t work.
I don’t think Glenwood’s lower teams are as bad as they used to be. College is a good benchmark to use because they are of similar size and play home and away. If I’m not mistaken, a lot of the results do a complete about-face between home and away. Grassy can confirm this. But your point is taken. Certainly I think A/B/C team level is very well coached. D/E/F can get dodgy as you go down. The problem is a shortage of male teachers who are coaching material. Or they need to get outside coaches in.
@GreenBlooded: You are correct. I have mentioned this over and over before. In fact please and I’m sure Hopper has the stats. What have the results been further down the levels at Glenwood? If it’s great than 50/50. Then I deserve the red card. The concentration is the higher level teams(Hopper I know you think that all the lower teams coaches are tops) I have a kid that plays in the lower level. Let me tell you how behind the game these kids are at u15 level, its frightening. Glenwood get hammered at these lower levels. I think it’s an awesome achievement for Glenwood to have the SA Schools Captain.
@Roger: haha, almost fell off my chair there. Ask the Dale boys about that….two faced newbies….
@GreenBlooded: spot on, well said! :-)
@GreenBlooded: Absolutely correct, Glenwood’s finest. Will make a real man of your boy
@Playa: The problem with the morality judges is that they apply their standards inconsistently. If they have a problem with recruiting – then apply the standard to all. At least then they have taken a stand which will bear scrutiny. Northwood recruited an entire front row last season. Do we hear the haters moaning about that? No. Do we hear the haters bemoaning the fate of the 3 potential first XV front row players who are now playing second XV? No. Do we hear the haters whining about the Hudson Park boys (and countless others) recruited by Westville this year? No. Do we see these haters getting offended on behalf of the Westville boys who could potentially have played in those positions? No. Where were the haters when House and Hilton were playing with teams loaded with Post Matrics? Where were they?
If the problem is not recruiting per se, but the amount of recruiting – then I have a problem. A matter of principle is a matter of principle. It’s kinda like being a little bit pregnant. If you steal a car or if you steal a loaf of bread you are no more or no less a thief.
Be that as it may – what are the standards between what is acceptable and what isn’t? 3 players per year? 3 players per age group? Who gets to decide these standards? In the absence of them – who gets to make judgements on the ‘ammount’ of recruiting – specifically when those making the calls are recruiting themselves?
The final question I will ask – and nobody needs to answer because we all know deep down what that answer is: If Glenwood were getting beaten, and were sitting at No 55 on the rankings, would anyone really give a toss about where each and every player comes from/what language he speaks/where his daddy went to school/what primary school he went to/where he lives/what scholarship he is on/how big his schlong is/blah blah blah?? I think not.
@Roger: Serves you right then. Steve La Marque and Rudi Urbach will turn him into a machine at the Glenwood Waterpolo Elite Academy. Great move for the lad – and his folks save a mint on school fees.
@Grasshopper: Go you good thing, watch this space.
@Grasshopper: King Edward VII School for Boys recruit – not on your nelly. Reserved for institutions like UmbiloTech and Gapsfontein
@Bonthuis: Gosh how thick are you, I said I have an association with the school, meaning I am an Old Boy….not running or speaking for an association……jeez…
@Roger: tatatatata……KES recruited half a 1st rugby side a few years back, you guys are the kings of recruitment……remember before wagging the finger check your own house is in order…
@GreenBlooded: the younger brother was in grade 7 at KEPS and playing in the U14A team at the Jeppe festival. The older brother in grade 10 and playing in the U16A. Scholarships … Don’t be daft – only Glenwood do that
@GreenBlooded: You might open up a can of worms with that question given the Selborne boy now at GW…
@Playa: Very well put – like I said, the GW side that played KC in 2013, had 6 players recruited in the match day 22 (that is what I know of, there could be more)
To me, that is too much – have to out it out there, KC still won, even without the brutal twins
sorry, could not resist the dig.
@Roger: Was this provincial polo player on scholarship at KES?
@Pedantic: refer my post above…….
“KES lost a provincial u14 water polo player (and his brother who was in grade 10) after the Jeppe u14 water polo tournament earlier this year. Both kids were suddenly presented with scholarships from Glenwood. Coincidentally – the Glenwood u14 water polo team were at the Jeppe tournament too ……”
This is one instance I know of – two talented water polo players poached
@GreenBlooded: Would you not say that Glenwood’s success would be more acceptable to those ‘hating’ if those great coaching and conditioning structures were used to develop their own players? The attention would simply be on that facet rather than recruiting. the fees paid by the 16F player are exactly the same as those paid by the 16A player. I mean with 26 rugby teams (390 active players), depth should not be a problem if resources are equitably distributed. If an age group is weak, take your weak years…sorry my old school hat spoke out there.
It’s not impossible. Look at GCB. There’s an underlying theme (blueprint) in their teams starting from the under 14Fs right to the 1sts. In my days a school, Selborne had a similar vibe. Basically, the low junior teams are taught how to play like the 1st team, because that is the skill set you need to perfect if you want to make the 1sts one day.
In ending, it is one thing to recruit a talented player or two to fill gaps, or because they’re just irresistible…it is another to build a team by recruiting.The line between the two is very thin…
@Gungets Tuft: Six tested, one positive and one sanction. No further discussion necessary.
Just because 6 are tested doesn’t mean they were all positive
The rumour mill is full of stories about boys from various schools being caught in possession or testing positive – there have been no sanctions as far as I can see, so either these are just rumours or there has been carpet shoving going on.
@GreenBlooded: There is the thing …
“The coaching and conditioning structures that have been put into place play the major role – not recruiting”
Exactly why many of us wonder why GW are recruiting so aggressively at U16 level, the structures put in place should be developing what they have at the school – develop the boys who wear the jersey proudly from U14 level – not alienate them by bringing in professionals from GK week to take their place.
Maybe we don’t hear about it as this is a rugby blog, but how many GW cricketers, polo players, swimmers, hockey players are recruited at the various provincial age group weeks other than Under 13 ?
Do GW also check out the results of G9 ANA exams written and offer the top academics a free ride too?
If yes, then recruitment is necessary, if no, then certainly the structures in place are having the desired results across the board.
@beet: I very much doubt Glenwood will abandon their plans to be excellent at rugby and other sporting codes, cultural activities and academics to appease those who believe that Glenwood should ‘know their place’ in the great historical scheme of things. I don’t like the recruitment thing – but it is reality and it is the way of things nowadays and Glenwood are by no means the only one’s doing it.
Glenwood have not become excellent purely through recruiting – that is just part of it. The coaching and conditioning structures that have been put into place play the major role – not recruiting – but that is a fact that the old order will just never want to acknowledge.
Glenwood have published their 4th term Waterpolo fixtures:
http://www.glenwoodhighschool.co.za/sites/default/files/2014%20Water%20Polo%20Fixtures%20Term%204.pdf
as well as the cricket fixtures for the 4th term and 1st term next year:
http://www.glenwoodhighschool.co.za/sites/default/files/Cricket%20Fixtures%202014%202015%20%281%29.pdf
Guess which school does not feature…………
@GreenBlooded:
I agree with your point about Hilton. They have been inconsistent in rugby approach: recruit top players, high paid pro coach, train twice a day in preseason raises questions. It makes me wonder if this decision is permanent or if it will be overruled at some point in the future because it may not have been an all-inclusive or carefully thought out decision. The key for them is to now be consistent.
Likewise consistency is key for others as well. Make informed decisions. Define the objectives and boundary limits and stick by them.
KERF is relatively new. It reached dizzy heights last year but was still really good this year. Whether its sustainable or not is also not a guarantee. Certainly its shape or form should mimic the standard that Kearsney strives for, be it a downgraded fest to accommodate only schools who share the same rugby goals or a 2-tier festival in one with certain schools matched up. Who knows, remembering that a break in rugby ties doesn’t necessarily extend to other school sports codes, so there is still a relationship between schools.
I also had the privilege of sitting next to Straeuli at KERF for a while on one of the days and chatting to him about various issues. I was able to overhear him say how he would like to up the standard of St Johns to that of KERF. There are no guarantees. St Johns could become the top Easter Fest, KERF could become one of the others.
I still firmly believe that the solution to the challenges faced lie in national rules to counter the professional elements of rugby at school level. Professionalism at senior level has resulted in the sport reducing in participation size and it will do the same to school rugby. If the sport is to be kept in a healthy state it needs to be looked after and part of this process is having a future plan that takes into account the challenges that the sport is likely to face.
BTW I still think you should be asking: what does Glenwood plan to do to stop a split. Certainly it does not have to entail handing over the baton to College or Westville and saying you guys lead for a while, we’ve been taking the flak for too long, but they have a big role to plan in a workable solution to keep traditional fixtures in place.
On a positive note Andile Phehlukwayo, a matric boy at Glenwood High will be representing the Dolphins at this year’s Champions League in India.
@GreenBlooded: I don’t think that the stance Hilton have taken has anything to do with this years margin of defeat or frankly the perceived risk of injury. After all Hilton have suffered similarly against College for decades. I think that it has everything to do with, justified or not, how Glenwood are perceived to have gone about realising their aspiration to be counted consistently among the likes of Grey and Paul Roos etc.
In this regard your point about hypocrisy given Hilton’s recruitment of Brad McCleod- Henderson as well as a few key players a few years ago is valid. I understand that that was an Old boy driven and funded initiative largely in response to a losing streak against MHS. Old Boys have always and will continue to play a critical role in determining school strategy.
The challenge facing Boards of Governors at the private schools going forward is how to manage the expectations of all stakeholders in a changing schoolboy rugby landscape. There definitely are influential groups of Old Boys at MHS who would support throwing money at staying competitive but for the moment this is a minority position not endorsed by the board. The majority of board members and influential old boys today grew up in the amateur era and I have no doubt that this informs their thinking – it certainly does mine – however what the position will be in a decades time is anyone’s guess.
@Grasshopper: So now you a spokesman for the Glenwood association, I highly doubt they would want that!
@meadows:
Cancel the salmon course and the eggs benedict and there would be a traffic jam of Range Rovers down Warriors’ Walk with all the ‘yummy mummies’ demonstrating about the lack of variety on the menu for ‘little Johnny’
@Grasshopper: Live in Trevor Rd, Westville, where you, still in London or Cape Town and looking at things from a distance!
@GreenBlooded: You going to jump in now too to defend Grass***. Ha…ha, reputation down the toilet, learn to be professional about what you do!
@Bonthuis: Boet, you always refer to me, it’s not me it’s Glenwood. I have an association that is it. Hope the weather isn’t to bad in New York today…
@Grasshopper: Great to see you on the backfoot for once after you always dominate every blog and talk over people with your childish opinions…go play your 2nd XV every week, or hang on, maybe Goerge Campbell or Northwood that will be more competitive.
Good Morning to the US eastern seaboard. How did I know that?
Difference is that we are smart and you not, that’s why you got exposed!
@Bonthuis: you sound like an 18 year old child, my word. Cricket, you got mashed by Andile P on his own….check your stats….Tennis no chance, squash no chance, surfing no chance……many others….boet, just stop hating and move on….
3 years ago Hilton appointed MC-H as head of rugby to make sure that they didn’t fall behind the 8 ball when it came to local fixtures. They brought in a couple new faces and it seemed to have an instant result. That policy went out the window when he resigned and hence the results show a lack of direction and commitment. Now they pull the plug on one of the oldest fixtures in KZN. Go out there and find another top class coach that can focus on rugby and rugby alone. Be more professional and recruit like the other schools.
They have a rich history on the rugby field with the most Boks next to College and Glenwood which should not be ignored.
@Roger: Funny enough that Director is a Westville Old Girl so she wouldn’t support a Glenwood strategy…
@beet: Well if Kearsney do decide to follow suit and decide not to ‘follow a semi-pro rugby culture’ then I wonder how they will reconcile that with staging a festival every year which promotes exactly that? And will they also refuse to play against schools at this festival like Paul Roos and Grey College who would beat Glenwood 9 times out of 10 – and who therefore must be MORE professional than Glenwood are alleged to be?
I’m not trying to be argumentative. I have often mentioned that if Glenwood are seen to be so unsavory – then a ‘coallition of the willing’ must take a stand and not play them. I also said that the coallition must themselves be above board and this is not what has happened here. This is clearly a protest by Hilton – despite their claims to the contrary. The BS about injuries, mismatches blah blah do not hold water. How can Hilton object to the ‘professional era’ when they themselves spent enough money on a coach that could have provided Glenwood with 5 Sean Erasmus’s? And their poaching of top players from Glenwood and Westville? Hypocrisy of the greatest order.
@Grasshopper: That will never happen and you know it, you guys have taken it way too far that’s the problem. Funny how it’s swimming, academics, hockey, cricket and a host of other sports that we dominate and not only rugby like you guys.
Best thing about this is that this is national news and Glenwood’s reputation is now forever tarnished, good luck with playing all the KZN schools especially next season, I’m sure you are going to cop a fair amount of abuse, that’s if anyone still wants to play the Affies 2nd team on a weekly basis. Cheats!
@Far Meadows:
“I think the cost of catering alone would make your eyes water.”
Perhaps if a few select items like eggs benedict on the breakfast menu and the Kobe beef and Norwegian salmon options on the evening a la carte menu, along with the wine pairing option for A block of course, were removed the school could afford a few more rugby scholarships but that on the other hand would put paid to the chef’s Michelin star aspirations and you’d have to ask what is more important in the bigger scheme of things
@Bonthuis: Nope it hasn’t, I always look at the positive side of things, it opens up a week to start a new derby with a school that can field 25 plus sides, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s replaced with Grey PE, Jeppe, PBHS or another Pretoria school like Garsfontein etc. I also would be surprised if there was a home and away vs Westville now…
bugger – non refundable – need it for recruitment – apparently one of their directors says they should follow the Glenwood example
@Bonthuis: Ask yourself about swimming. Glenwood excels in many other sports than rugby, you just focus on that….Squash KZN champs, SA paddlers, SA cyclists, SA athletes, SA tennis players, SA cricketers (Shezi playing for the Proteas yesterday)…..the list goes on and on….
@Bonthuis: Nope, I’m not involved in Glenwood rugby at all, this blog is a little fun for me. Will be interesting when these schools start to pull out of Westville fixtures as your recruitment in rugby ramps up a level. Your recruitment for swimming has been fantastic, maybe schools should pull out of your gala’s….now that would leave you swimming against yourselves….
@beet: Please don’t lump us together with Glenwood, we’ve done it the right way and have the respect from ours peers on how to improve a school as a whole and do not only focus on rugby like our esteemed counterparts down the road.
What Glenwood have done is take it too far, you don’t become so dominant at one sport in such a short space of time without anything sinister going on.
@Roger: Yep, no worries…
@GreenBlooded: can I blame Glenwood for this too…….
Hopper – I’m going to use your name to get my deposit back – is that ok?
@GreenBlooded: You can just as easily turn to Glenwood and say the same thing – “Do you want Kearsney to follow suit?”
The ball is just as much in their court.
All the schools around the country have a choice. Go it alone or work as a collective to come up with a workable solution.
My advice to schools like Kearsney, Michaelhouse and Hilton is don’t be stupid. Don’t spend millions trying to keep up with the ever increasing demands of a semi-pro rugby culture or give in to the market forces that drive it especially when you can’t determine where it will lead in the future. Rather channel all your energy into restructuring to make school rugby part of a controlled environment so that is serves the desired purpose while still allowing good players the opportunities to pursue the sport after school if they so wish to.
I’m not sure what I would say to Glenwood, Westville or College except that whatever you do, don’t let your opponents get too far ahead of you.
Even if KZN becomes well regulated, these 3 schools may be placed at a disadvantage when competing against schools from regions where its still a free for all. That would be far from ideal.
@Grasshopper: True to yourself, you never miss a chance at having a go at Westville – don’t you feel like an idiot now!
@Grasshopper: The burning question as a result of this debacle is which school will be next?
Funny how after this whole Glenwood rugby thing has backfired in your face!
T. Hall and Westville pushed back on this a few years ago and there was some criticism from some of the more naive rugby followers. Maybe you guys should join the Pretoria leagues and spend the winters up there playing Affies and Monnas twice a season.
@GreenBlooded: the keys guys were the first to do so, they know how to sweep it under the carpet. They even taught Westville how to do it…
@Roger: Careful – this might be considered ‘recruitment’.
@Roger: what a childish git…
St Marys have a place available – whew
@beet: as a Kearsney Old Boy it’s a bit obvious you would support the private schools argument. I have nothing against private schools, my wife went to Durban Girls College, I just don’t believe they are worth the sort of money they charge…imagine having two or three sons at Hilton, R630k a year before the uniform, tours and kit….just madness!
@Far Meadows: @Playa: @meadows:
We really need a LIKE button for these comments. Very good.
@Roger: She is actually one of the Directors at Kingsmead, an excellent teacher who got awards in the UK for her work…..don’t be such a knob all the time..
@TheGoose: Would you like to see Kearsney follow suit?
that’s it – I’m removing my daughter from Kingsmead
@Pedantic: Excellent POV
@Playa: Get your points, but Glenwood is not a flush school like people think, it’s actually just a middle of the road school with average parents, many blue collar and many single parents. Our feeder area’s are middle to low income and with many social issues. The flush parents are in the minority and flush Old boys able to sponsor hundreds of thousands for bursaries is also very few, maybe a handful. Glenwood’s fees are no more than Westville or College, maybe a couple hundred more. Point made…
@Gungets Tuft:
“In short – I think you are incorrect in your assumption that the privates have pots of money lying around. They might have wealthy Old Boys … but don’t we all, it doesn’t mean they see the value in sporting ambition.”
Agreed – for clarity I wasn’t suggesting that that MHS or Hilton could or would fund a semi pro rugby programme off their balance sheets – they would have to tap into the old boys who in turn would have to support the strategy.
@GreenBlooded: i wonder what an old Hilton family like the Grindrod’s think about having hired a Glenwood upstart like Ivan Clark if his funding is at the root of this conflict
@Playa: Spot on!
@Grasshopper: That is as naïve as saying you cannot fathom a multi-millionaire struggling with debt. The more wealthy you are, the more access to credit you have, and the dumb thing would be access it irresponsibly.
I digress. You take a sample of what you are exposed to and take that to be the status quo at all private institutions. In my line of work, I have also come across totally different pictures to what you talk about, and these are well known, well established schools. All I am saying is that from my experience cash flush private schools are the exception as opposed to being the norm that you have experienced. I know nothing about Hilton, MHS, KC and Clifton, but I can understand what Far Meadows is saying (as a House man), because I have seen some cases with my own eyes.
@Far Meadows: Bru – just keeping the grass cut at House and Hilton carries the budget of many small African countries.
@Grasshopper: Have you been to a Glenwood Boarder Finance meeting. I have been to the College one. Balancing that budget is no small thing, as Playa says, it is not-for-profit” so it’s a break even budget set at the beginning of the year. Let just one boarder leave without notice (and they do!) and you are 2-3 months short of filling a bed, a couple of Grand a time short in a break-even budget, then there’s trouble in the land. Give someone a scholarship of 100%, say R75K worth (R31k + 4 x R11k), that turns into a R1000 extra for every parent in that grade. Sweat those numbers, then do the same for the Privates (nothing changes except the magnitudes). House and Hilton have huge estates, full of heritage buildings (100 year old buildings – budget on 12% of asset value for annual maintenance), all private staff, classes of 18 vs classes of 28, running a full-on Sanitarium. It all adds up.
In short – I think you are incorrect in your assumption that the privates have pots of money lying around. They might have wealthy Old Boys … but don’t we all, it doesn’t mean they see the value in sporting ambition.
@Playa: yes the gov covers about 30 teachers and the building, that is about it. The school then needs to pay an extra 30 teachers to keep the class sizes down. My mother runs a private school in Pinetown, they certainly not short of cash and she knows the other private headmasters from IEB and ISASA meetings. They are not short, maybe having to plough profits back into the school….I just cannot fathom wealthy schools battling to cover costs, it’s a joke….my sister is at Kingsmead in JHB and the other at Atholl Heights in Westville, I have some good sources for my opinions…
@GreenBlooded:
refer to my response to Grassy
@Grasshopper: Because Hilton has to pay the teachers from their coffers, whereas Glenwood has the option to, but the government does. A lot of government schools bring in expertise at their own expense, I know, and some will supplement the government pay that their best educators get in order to keep them. They certainly don’t as big a payroll as a private school. That’s just one of many differentiators.
Remember, most (speaking of traditional schools, not the JSE listed group) private schools are registered section 21 companies. This means that they have to break even/make a loss, and can’t make a profit.
If you want to talk access to funds from old boys and parents, in the form of ‘donations and sponsorships’ that is a different story to saying the school itself is cash flush. That too can be debated.
P.S. I am a man who does not believe in private schooling, so please do not see my post as anti-Glenwood, I am just offering a point of view
@Grasshopper:
To quote George W Bush , you may be ‘mis-under-estimating’ the costs of running a full boarding school like Hilton or MHS.
I think the cost of catering alone would make your eyes water.
Things like the cost of housing ALL the staff is something that govt schools don’t encounter .
I can assure you that there is very little ‘fat’ built into the budgets for the private schools – if it turned out that they were making a profit the parents would go mental ( and they would find it difficult to attract new parents who would be prepared to pay those fees if they knew that the schools were profit driven ).
@GreenBlooded: hahahah, too true! Remember those okes from the dock are dodgy, how could they be successful in business…..hahah
@Playa: I’m guessing that besides the normal scholarships which come from school fee paying parents, the majority of the ‘recruitment’ money comes from Old Boys bank-rolling the process. The Old Boys from House and Hilton would choke on their Single Malt if you suggested to them that the scaley OB’s from Dockside High were more able in this respect than they were……
@Playa: Yes Playa, but I can assure you the school fees charged at a Gov school do not cover all the costs, my whole family are teachers. Why would it cost Hilton almost 4 times to host a boarder than Glenwood, unless they serving them ala carte menu food and they have their own room with king size bed each. Love these private schools pleading poverty…..they need some perspective…
@Grasshopper: I think you missed the point Far Meadows made where the base cost is high and the aim is to break even. For argument’s sake, the R209K fees per boy could mean that it costs the school R209K a year to provide the service to that boy, and therefore break even. Whereas, it may be the point that a government school charging R60K per boy, has a cost base of R45K a year on each boy, giving them a profit of R15K a year. Who has more cash in the bank? Don’t just look at revenue, I am sure as an MD of a company you know that you don’t value a company based purely on revenue.
@Far Meadows: Ah they must be battling only getting R209k per annum without adding on the extra’s, scrapping the barrel for sure. Gov schools are getting R30k per annum for day boys and R60k for boarders, I can assure you they have far tighter budgets than the privates…
@meadows: Good balanced post, finally someone with some brains. I agree with you. To add to this semi-gov schools have to fight tooth and nail to survive, they have very little support from the gov. Hence, to survive they have to be aggressive in whatever area they feel will attract the most paying parents and it seems for Glenwood it’s sport. They are oversubscribed every year for grade 8, 3 times over. So by giving out a few bursaries they ensure the school survives, attracts sponsorship and money. The likes of Hilton, Michaelhouse, Kearsney and Clifton don’t need to attract extra money, they get enough from school fees…
@Grasshopper:
I think you are mistaken, the private schools aren’t swimming in cash as you state – they have a very high cost base and aim to break even – they don’t have piles of cash to dish out randomly on 20 rugby players every year.
Here is a breakdown of the scholarships / bursaries that MHS offers ( I presume that Hilton offers a similar range of scholarships every year ):
Major Open Scholarship Up to80% of tuition and boarding Independent school candidate
Minor Open Scholarship Up to 75% of tuition and boarding Independent school candidate
Open Exhibition Scholarship
Up to 50% of tuition and boarding Independent school candidates
Closed Scholarship
Up to 30% of tuition and boarding Traditional feeder school candidates
Major Trust Scholarship Up to 80% of tuition and boarding State school candidate
Minor Trust Scholarship Up to 75% of tuition and boarding State school candidate
Music Scholarship Up to 50% of tuition and boarding All candidates
Sports Scholarships
Up to 50% of tuition and boarding All candidates
All Rounder Scholarships
Up to 50% of tuition and boarding All candidates
I know that this year they awarded 5 sport scholarships ( they awarded 3 last year ).
I think that Hilton taking this decision is a sad, but increasingly inevitable, watershed moment for schoolboy rugby in KZN given the increasing tension resulting from different approaches to the sport in the province (and nationally). Glenwood have opted for a semi-professional approach and aspire to be measured consistently on the national stage. The smaller private schools simply cannot do the same without an aggressive recruitment and scholarship strategy. So far such an approach has been deemed contrary to the educational and sporting ethos at MHS. So far, notwithstanding the odd weak year, MHS have managed to remain competitive against schools like Glenwood. For how much longer, as the gap inevitably widens, this will be the case remains to be seen. At some point, when the gap becomes too wide, the decision will have to be made whether to enter the “arms race” or opt out.
Personally I have no problem with measuring yourself against and even losing consistently to a bigger, stronger school. For the last five or six decades College have set the benchmark in Natal and the odd victory between regular losses was especially savoured. I doubt whether at any stage over this time Hilton considered cancelling the fixture so it seems to me that this decision has more to do with different approaches and the trajectory going forward than the odd heavy defeat.
The decision whether or not to enter into this “arms race” remains a strategic one for all schools. Hilton dabbled a few years ago off of the back of funding from a few old boys. The exercise caused some resentment within the Hilton community and seems to have been abandoned. Money is not the issue at Hilton (or MHS for that matter) and I am quite certain that if the funding were needed for the school to compete on a semi-professional basis, and the Board, parents, and most importantly Old Boys, bought into the strategy, it would be readily available without any negative impact on the schools finances.
The next few years are going to be interesting for schoolboy rugby and not just in Natal. Whether a semi-professional schools set up is good for the health of our rugby nationally is moot. Danie Craven was vehemently opposed to “win at all costs” approaches at schoolboy level believing that it inhibited the development of skills necessary for success in the senior game.
@Buffel: Yep, Kearsney are tough, they don’t shy away from challenges they take them head on, good attitude in the real world. Mommy or daddy can’t bail you out of everything…
@GreenBlooded: Let us put the record straight- no fault of Glenwood’s. It was the Kearsney mindset and boys playing out of position etc. No sour grapes-we got a clap. But am sure we will be there again next year having a crack at the Green Machine.
@CHS08: I think Standard 5/Grade 7 recruitment into High School is fine. A number of 14a players fall by the way side anyway.
@ Buffel: Whatever the circumstances, to take 80 from a side, is a big big hiding. However, I agree KC will be back , but not to the extent where they will have a chance of beating GW
I don’t want to get involved in these heated debates and arguements with these KZN gentlemen. However I will provide facts. 3 players from the brilliant Dale u13a from last year are at Glenwood now. The Selborne u16a captain Jerome is at Glenwood. 2 boys I know who played u16a last year at Hudson Park are at Westville. 8 players who played u13a at Dale Junior in 2012 are at DHS. @Player sent me a pic of a Toyota Condor from DHS at the Dale Junior driveway I can only wonder what it was doing there. Still have the photo.
And so it begins.
Hilton weren’t the first to do this and they certainly wont be the last.
@Buffel: But there are still circulating rumours that only 1 out of 6 actually went down for the saga, so more questions than answers. I understand that these are kids we are talking about, but a debate on the process and result is not out of order?
@Buffel: Extenuating factors which we won’t go into? Not fair to make a statement like that and leave it hanging. People might get the idea that Glenwood did something naughty – and we don’t want that to happen.
@RBugger: I agree that KC took a clap but there were extenuating factors which we won’t go into. I have played in games that have gone both ways, been on the receiving end and dished it out, but KC will get up from this and will give them a good go next year. Remember KC had 4 representative boys in their 15 so cannot be that bad.
Take your mind back to when the Crusaders gave the Warratahs 100 in the Supa round robin but they came back from that . That is what happened to KC on that fateful day.
As far as Hilton go’s, I think it is a sad day. They have put up the white flag and surrendered. It is all about cycles and they will come back from this so do they say ‘WE WILL PLAY YOU WHEN WE HAVE A STRONG SIDE”. Anyway that is my say on the issue.
@Jimbo: The doping saga is a huge problem in schoolboy rugby. KC did the right thing and set an example which had detrimental effects on the 1st XV. Other schools must follow suite whatever the outcome.It could be their star player caught but don’t sweep it under the carpet because it will hurt the 1st XV which in turn is detrimental to their marketing campaign as a successful rugby school.
@Jimbo: ok, so now Glenwood are dopers, how low can people go? Doping is an issue in all schools and for vanity more than sport. The boys know testing is done and if they get to SA schools level will most likely be tested….
I agree with Gungets, real reasons covered up by injuries excuse. I mean this game was first played in 1915, 99 years ago….come on people come up with a better plan than that. Stagger a little or something. The schools are bigger than their current headmasters. Imagine the headmasters in the 20’s turning in their graves…
The recruitment issue was bound to head in this direction. It is clear that fee-paying parents at some schools have pushed back against imports taking their sons’ rightful places in their first teams and why not, they pay big money at private schools. However, that makes their 1st teams decidedly less competitive and with less depth. Another likely issue is the 2013 doping scandal surrounding GW and the uneven playing field regarding doping regimes. Apart from the one doping incident at KC this year, did any other first team player in KZN test positive or receive a ban? Out of season testing would surely open a can of worms.
Glenwood runs a very professional set up. Their rugby boys are(mostly) academically strong. They want to compete against the top schools. So hats off.
Rugby is a career and they offer top players the opportunity to follow that path.
A player like their 8 will earn more then most of his teachers next year.
Money should not be the reason they winning. They have great coaches, gym facilities and a good rugby program.
That gives their players an advantage and Glenwood are producing top talented athletes to SA rugby, those players have great work ethic.
I understand Hilton’s point, what is disturbing is more and more schools are running away from playing the best schools.
I am no fundy on the rights or wrongs of school recruiting methods. I believe it happens everywhere.
There however seems to be a difference in the adoption of the philosophy of recruitment depending on the aim of a school. If the aim of a school is primarily the production of good citizen stock, then they will recruit at gr 8 level and say thank you to any other kid that joins them thereafter.
If the main aim is sport then they will aggressively recruit the best they can get or afford. Lets not forget that kids and parents to a large extent make this possible by accepting the offers and thereby reinforce them.
Schools need to decide where they fit in. If Glenwood wants to be no 1 sport school, good for them. They will realise that it is very lonely at the top. If Hilton decide to to be an all round school that also offers rugby, good for them. They will probably be part of a bigger school community.
This whole debate centres around the position a school takes and what they wish to be. If you remain in the main stream you will have more like minded schools and very few if you have an obsession to be the best in all. Part of the problem lies with us. We all want to be the best in what we do and project this to the schools we are assossiated with whom in turn actively pursue those standards.
This brings us to the main aim of a school. Is it to cultivate a good all rounder or a super specialist that has to be the best in everything. I am of the opinion that the former will make up the majority. Schools with that ethos will from time to time dominate others but not to the extent that other schools canniot compete.
We are seeing signs of a split in outlook already. If schools persue the best in all route, they will have a very small competition base wheras the other schools that adopt a more holistic approach will be the majority.
Decide which you are and accepts your fate
@Tarpeys: Are you hopeful that House follows the lead? Do you know if they plan to?
@Gungets Tuft: Exactly! I think ou Wollie has it right – but they cannot say it as it would cast the spotlight on some of their own dealings.
I’m not buying the injury theory. There will be no evidence that there are consistently more injuries from the matches vs Glenwood than any other school. Sure, at the top team level the Glenwood guys are very well condititioned but they didn’t neccesarily arrive like that, a professional approach to conditioning leads to that. Rugby is a collision sport, all schools should be adopting an approach to safety that mitigates those risks, via coaching and conditioning. The worst injury (I believe) that College had against GCB was on the astro – badly broken collarbone that was operated on at 8.00am on the Saturday morning.
In short – Hilton, if using the injury rationale, should take a serious look at their coaching and conditioning standards and then judge whether they are up to scratch.
It’s the last straw for me now, please change my jersey to black & white Sharks jersey….
@HORSEFLY NO.1: guess who is doing this to Glenwood, a DHS Old boy. I say get rid of him before he ruins the traditions & ethos, if not done already…I do defend the school, hate that it recruits after grade 8 but what irritates me to no end is other schools taking the high ground when they do the same thing. DHS recruit in the EC, fact! No one says a thing. Payi was overage too, that is ok but Glenwood get lambasted for Tom….it’s a vendetta that will surely destroy any and all KZN relationships, well done all and well done TK!
@Sir Pius: Westville recruited 3 boys from Hudson Park last year and also recruit around KZN at grade 8 level, they obviously innocent…
@Tarpeys: I must correct you there. GCB do not only play all the Bloemfontein schools, but even several schools in the Griffons and Griqua region. Please make sure of your facts. And by the way, it would seem that the “central”region, have more schools in the “Top 50″than KZN
@Grasshopper:
The point of the two Glenwood captains is quite a tired example now and yes I understand that it did happen and everyone recruits. But, as has been said above, Glenwood keep finding the cash whenever they need it. So, one does wonder how far deep are the pockets of these sponsors??
Trust me when I say that there are a lot more bursaries being offered off the books , 45 or so is certainly not the full number.
If Glenwood wants to continue recruiting as aggressively as it has, cool, go for it. They obviously see stupid ranking systems as being more important than 100 plus years of tradition between them and other KZN schools.
Lastly, I know this is your alma mater we’re on about but it really doesn’t reflect well on you when you defend them at every point and instance.
@Grasshopper: congratulations Hopper – you’ve finally cottoned on. Beet – please change his avatar.
Is there a government school (boys’ school)without any imports in KZN?
Just a quick one, last year during the KC game, GW had 6 imports in the starting 22. This is a high number
…now we know why there is so much tension between Glenwood and Westville!
Hahahahaha Grassy, just relax, GW have essentially done nothing wrong. However, they have put themselves into a certain bracket. Yes, you are now the premier rugby school in KZN, but the way in which it has been achieved, is now counting against you somewhat. I do not feel hard done by at all, but I do understand that boys can get seriously hurt, playing against other boys taking the school game as a professional sport. This whole attitude of boys learning from the defeats and not running, is a load of bull shit. We are not talking about losing, we are talking injuries, boys getting hurt. All schools must decide, are you a professional rugby outfit, or are you an academic institution that offers rugby as a sport. GW have been very aggressive with their recruitment, but as stated, I have nothing against them, they are simply using the rules to their advantage. But as Beet says, they need to be playing like for like opposition.
Drop Glenwood and play Kearsney twice. Good decision, well done Hilton. Theyll lose more than they win against Kearsney but I will imagine the injuries will be less. I think Michaelhouse should assess on a year to year basis and maybe do the same if they feel that the physical safety of the boys is at risk. There’s nothing wrong with a hiding but if it comes with heavy injuries as well then there’s an issue.
Glenwood will eventually become like GCB and have no fixtures in KZN maybe even in South Africa. They might have to fly to New Zealand and play in the ITM Cup.
@Bonthuis: Geez Bonthuis. I thought you would be too preoccupied with whats going down in Ferguson, Missouri to find time to produce one of your usual comments.
@Grasshopper: Hopper you guys have somehow have got the money when you need it. For example a few minutes back you might have thought there was only enough money in the kitty for 2 new u16 faces but there are 3 so another R60-70k came from somewhere.
@Grasshopper: That is an unfair statement. Glenwood is not the devil of all schools, Lots of good people there from students to teachers to parents to old boys. And a lot of good things happening there daily.
All indications here from inside sources is that this relates to Glenwood essentially buying the best players from around the country every year.
I think this is inevitable and KZN schools are becoming frustrated at having to play what is essentially the Affies / Monument 2nd VX on an annual basis.
Somebody had to eventually take a stand. Maybe Glenwood should not even bother with playing the rest of the schools in KZN and just play Festival rugby to boost their national ranking! This is what happens when you take the recruitment too far!
OK all, Glenwood is the devil of all schools and every school should pull out of fixtures with them…simple as…
No real surprises here, I remember Selborne College saying the same thing a while back
@Grasshopper: Not all bursaries are on the books. Glenwood just got another 3 U16 rugby players, on 100%+ bursaries, anyone who knows Mr *** knows he wasn’t going to give up the Kallis scholarship for anything less. Are you saying that Glenwood kept 3 bursaries spare just in case. All they do is phone the Engine room and get refueled. And as long as Glenwood are the #1 rugby school in SA in the next 5 years the cash is there.
At least 2 of the private schools are running “fly now, pay later” finance plans to make it easier to afford fees. Terms of 10 years. Don’t overestimate the amount of ready cash, they also have their challenges, and a 50% bursary at Hilton means that other parents pony up R100k, equal to 1.5 100% at Glenwood.
Do you have a list of Glenwood sponsors – then figure out how much wonga is available.
@CRC: remember Gov schools like Glenwood get a tiny subsidy and have to pay the extra teachers to keep numbers down and to offer the best facilities. They too need as many paying parents as possible. The only thing they don’t pay is rent. Again it’s a fallacy that gov schools are flush. Some have the likes of Ivan Clarke, but Hilton etc have many wealthy old boys to build a pot to recruit boys…
@Grasshopper: The private schools just cannot offer anywhere near that number because of the smaller grades and the need to actually have some guys paying their school fees.
@Grasshopper: It is quiet a famous quote, I am not sure from whom: “that the moral high ground is an expensive place to be”.
@CRC: FYI Westville offer up to 75 bursaries at grade 8 level, granted not all are 100% but same for Glenwood’s 45…
I reckon I could stay at a Midlands 4 star B&B for a year for less than 200k…
@beet: that is the thing, Glenwood doesn’t have the cash to give out tons of bursaries…it’s a fallacy. They give out 40 at grade 8 and probably 5 later on….or a few more at lower %. At R209k a year Hilton certainly ain’t short on cash….
@Woltrui:
@Grasshopper: I think the difference is the extent of the recruitment. With the school fees what they are in private schools and the restriction on numbers they just cannot offer as many scholarships, particularly after grade 8. Glenwood seem to be able to offer many.
@GreenBlooded: re: the discussion on finances. There is a wrong perception that private schools have loads of money lying around. Most of them don’t. To swing things on you I’m actually astounded that Glenwood has the kind of money it has to spend on recruitment. I imagine a lot of those bursaries and scholarships are off the books, coming via the private sector or its being bankrolled soemhow and judging by Glenwood’s activity there seems to be a lot more of it still available to spend.
Your point about the Elite schools is right. We need Grasshopper to paste the rugby scores by Westville and College against Glenwood, which will indicate that those 3 are in the same bracket. The only thing that separates them now is the level of aggressive recruiting. College and Westville are bound to up their game in this area in the next couple of years, so it does again re-enforce what Pedantic says about the real underlying issues. How else do you separate Glenwood from the other two in the way Hilton do?
On your last point I can relate to the hidings at the hands of College rugby teams during my school days. During one match I even got knocked out completely, came around and believe it or not finished the game. I must admit the 2 coaches that deemed me fit to continue were of questionable IQ.
@Roger: yes Roger, I don’t like it either but again coming from others doing the same is double standards in my books. Sorry we not playing you because you recruit but we can recruit no problem. Even PBHS have realized they need to recruit to stay with their competition including KES. A friend of mines boy is going to KES on a full bursary and he lives in Centurion!
@Grasshopper: boys vs men Hopper. In case you hadn’t noticed your alma mater is not winning many popularity contests….not in KZN, the Noordvaal, the WC or the EC. You are living in a fools paradise if you think the status quo will remain….
Old Roger dodger is loving this, but his beloved KES are recruiting and have been for years. Scarra Ntubeni being the last one of significance. All 3 of Glenwood’s SA schools players this year were at Glenwood from grade 8….
@Woltrui: spot on – and stick around – they won’t be the last
@Playa: KES lost a provincial u14 water polo player (and his brother who was in grade 10) after the Jeppe u14 water polo tournament earlier this year. Both kids were suddenly presented with scholarships from Glenwood. Coincidentally – the Glenwood u14 water polo team were at the Jeppe tournament too ……
Love our Diplomatic Soutie Brothers from the last outpost.
“We are withdrawing from fixtures with Glenwood because they are in our opinion in a different leaugue”. Dutchy version. “Puckoff. We don’t want anything to do with you anymore”.
@GreenBlooded: Mthokozini Shezi today case in point, Glenwood’s latest Protea :-)
Sorry either recruit or not…
@HORSEFLY NO.1: the thing is all schools are now recruiting so why is one worse than another? Glenwood lost 2 under 16a captains to Hilton in a few years. For me this is the pot calling the kettle black. It’s a grey area yes, but you either or you don’t….
I think Hilton is just saying that they are not prepared to continuously go through similar measures as Glenwood to get the best players and eventually be part of that elite band.
Because Glenwood has a certain direction it wants to take and a certain reputation to build…These goals are ones that Hilton seemingly do not share and have therefore pulled themselves out of the equation.
After all the negative attention Glenwood has received, an action of this nature is not one that should come as a surprise at all.
@BOG: I have the right to change my mind. Spoke to some boys and they said they loved the fixture with Grey even if the lost heavily. They said it shows them where they need to be and strive for it….
@Grasshopper: are you not contradicting yourself? Quite recently, you advocated the suspension of the fixture between gw and gcb for the very reasons hilton is now suspending the matches between them and gw. In fact, they may have seen your reasoning.
@GreenBlooded: Alrighty then, I hear you. Thanks
@Playa: Absolutely. Not to the same extent as rugby I would guess – but certainly there are academic scholarships and there is active recruitment in aquatics that I know of. I know of one boy who got a scholarship for cycling – not even an official school sport. Cricket – no doubt there is recruitment there too.
@GreenBlooded: As a person who knows close to nothing about Glenwood…do they recruit cricketers, swimmers, waterpolo players and academic students as well?
@CRC: I think you need to chat to some Glenwood people before presuming to know what goes on there. Glenwood is not a rugby academy. It is a school. It focusses on elite athletes in all sports, rugby, cricket, swimming, waterpolo and many others. It also has acadameic “elite academies” – top students who extend themselves by doing varsity maths modules in Gr 11 and Gr 12, varsity level English and additional language enrichment. People need to inform themselves – this notion that Glenwood is ‘a rugby academy that foresakes academics’ is just not true. It develops talent in ALL spheres. Holistic education – absolutely – including the life lessons associated with facing adversity with courage. Umbiloburger – where are you?? Please inform these people…….
@CRC: Incorrect, Glenwood’s focus is on all sports and academics. They are achieving in all sports. Their best sportsman made SA schools hockey and cricket this year, Andile Phekuwayo (spelling) and three or four swimmers. They also recently had a couple of Rhodes scholars. People need to move away from thinking Glenwood is a rugby school, it’s not. It’s a school for excellence in all facets of school life…
@Pedantic: If they decide to follow suit – I guess that would be the end of Glenwood at the KERF? How sad would that be!!
@GreenBlooded: yep, 1990’s, played College 13 times, won 2, lost 11. Points against 357, points for 126. Avg score; 27-10…..massive hammerings in 1995 (61-13), 1996 (51-6) & 1997 (48-10). I was at College for that 60 point loss, very bleak day in Glenwood rugby. This was less than 20 years ago and we have a huge turnaround….Hilton can do the same…
@GreenBlooded: I think you are missing the point being made by Pedantic and others. Glenwood’s focus is just different. They are a rugby academy with different priorities and want to be one of the top rugby schools in the country. Hilton are acknowledging that and saying that they believe in a holistic education rather, with rugby as a part of that. They are not running for cover, but rather making brave decisions for the future.
Between 1921 and 1959 Glenwood played College 62 times, winning only 12, losing 41 and drawing 9!!
And vs Hilton between 1915 and 1959, played 51, won 13, lost 34 and drew 4. Lean times for sure…
@beet: Yes, recruitment at Under16 level only started a couple of seasons ago. What is a double standard though is when Hilton etc were klapping Glenwood for 30 years from 1915 to 1945, no one complained. There were like runs of 10 years where Glenwood barely won a match. Now it’s the other way around they pull out. Very disappointing in my books. Glenwood get hammered by Affies and Grey Bloem across the board every year, but they take their beatings and return the next year to try and reduce the score. I see Hilton only playing the likes of St Johns, St Stithians, St Benedicts, St Charles, Kearsney, Michaelhouse & Clifton going forward. They might even pull out of Westville and College fixtures too….
@beet: Not following your argument? Are you saying that there is more money floating around at Glenwood than at Hilton? Surely this cannot be???
I’m also wondering about this “Elite Schools League” that is being bandied about. It would seem, to Hilton at least, that this league consists only of Glenwood. Who makes up this Elite League and can we expect Hilton to can fixtures with the other schools as well?
The more I think about it – the more appalled I get. In my years at Glenwood, I played College 10 times and got 10 hidings. The first team won only once in 10 outings while I was there. Grasshopper will no doubt tell you the same when he was there during the 90’s. Never once was there ever the slightest thought of cancelling the fixture. That’s how it goes – you have peaks and troughs. You tough it out and enjoy the victories when they come. That’s the life lesson that Hilton should be teaching it’s boys – not to run for cover at the first sign of battle.
@MikeSt: No Mike I specifically referring to KZN here with “pioneer”. Glenwood’s success starting in the 2000’s was not based around recruitment at u16 level and up but rather putting together a very good rugby programme. Other KZN schools have had to play catch up for a few years.
@GreenBlooded: The conversation drifted towards injuries for a while but Pedantic is right, recruitment has a lot to do with it.
The private schools for various reasons, one being cost will not be able to complete with the richer state schools.
No one wants to lose by 60-80 points. The MHS and HC seasons are measured by the success these two achieve against each other, Kearsney can buy into that. They will surely have to consider following the same route as Hilton.
@Greenwood: look no one knows for certain what changes lie ahead in SA society. In the short term I feel that the power will shift to the big state schools but my feeling is that in the long term, the private schools along with any state school that privatises down the line will become the custodians of good rugby.
@GreenBlooded: I doubt it for 2015, but who knows for the future.
What a WOW!
…and it begins
@RBugger: But remember that Hilton upped the stakes in the coaching game by employing BM-H on a not-too-shabby little retainer, and also did some dodgy recruiting. There was a monster backlash at the school, huge resistance to the money being spent (even if it was a private benefactor paying the bills, or so I was told). All run it’s course now then, but I for one am not buying the story.
Whether a super-schools league (Beets post about GW, Westville and College) does develop, we’ll see, but the fact is that House remained competitive this year with a home grown team (bar one), so I see no reason for the knee jerk …
Edit – but I see Pedantics point as well …
@Pedantic: Is Kearsney going to follow the lead?
I don’t understand why everyone is beating around the bush wondering why this happened – it’s quite simple, an educational institution cannot compete against a professional rugby academy, simple logic.
The way GW are recruiting at Under 16 and upwards basically means that their 1st XV in the future will comprise of at least 15 players who have represented provinces in the past (and certainly not only KZN) – the 1st XV down to 3rds will all be on scholarships (professional).
Kudos to Hilton, I’m hoping more schools take this stance against what I believe is a relentless drive towards turning SBR professional.
Good luck to GW in the “elite” schools league – they still have a long way to go to compete against the likes of GCB, PRG, Monnas etc.
You will probably find a lot of pressure came from the parents. Generally, a kid is sent to school for a solid education, especially a school like Hilton.
If it is a given that your kid will never make it in rugby after school, I can understand the worry if your kid is getting his head smashed in, week in and week out.
Again, this is now professional. Some are talking here about conditioning? Is this not SBR? We are clearly in a pro era, as why should a school boy be fully conditioned to take a hammering from a 100kg plus athlete who has been on a specific programme from his school – being trained by a professional coach.
Perhaps the boys from Hilton focus more on academics, rugby coming a distant second..? It is basically saying, if you want to compete at School Boy level, you better have a full on professional appraoch, whereby the boys are gymed, by a Personal Trainer, given all supplements, creatine etc and be given time during scholar hours to concentrate on their rugby game – jeez, things are getting hectic!
@BOG: You mean Glenwood are in the super-league and Grey College aren’t???
Talk about injuries – how about Jako (Wrist) and Morne (Hammie) picking up injuries at SA U18 games – hope Morne will get his SA reps tie from Gwd – not sure if he ran on – if he did he will get the tie
The headmaster of GCB being a former master at Hilton, is a fixture between the 2 schools not on the cards? Just asking. And GCB only have one representative in the SA school side as opposed to GWs 3.
I’m not surprised by this move by Hilton and I agree on the comments made by most on this subject – My bet is that in time maybe House will go the same route – Glenwood , College & “Ville will rule Kzn and there will be queues outside these schools for enrollment – This I think has been Gwd’s aim but the knock on reaction from smaller rugby schools is to be expected
Staggered games could solve some of the issues but then why would a proud Rugby School like Hilton want to play Glenwood’s 3rd or 2nds ??
I Think Gwd putting 80 past Kearsney may have been the catalyst here
Interesting times are a coming – no more rugby this year but boy is this site going to buzzzzzz… wait for it !!!!
@beet: I beg to differ on the “pioneer” statement as its all about having sufficient funds available through whatever source to recruit at the rate they have been doing. I sincerely hope that the pot of gold is deep enough to be sustainable over the long run.
It occurs to me that Hilton took a bit of a wellie against House this year as well, 39-12, but haven’t decided to scrap that one. So, and understated in their notice, is not just that Glenwood are strong, but also the mechanism by which they got there – “Glenwood’s fairly recent strategy has, in our firm opinion, now moved them into a different league”.
Westville 59-14, Glenwood 67-12, College 37-5, Northwood 32-14 – perhaps it’s not just Glenwoods strength …
All that said then, I wonder how they fully explain away their manoevering in the last couple of years, or it is the success of the strategy rather than the strategy itself …
@TheGoose: Injuries are always a cause for concern and no school should take it lightly.
It must have been one of those unfortunate days because College and Westville both compete will against Glenwood from A-team all the way down and Hilton did not experience the same problems. I watched 1sts Hilton against Northwood and their attrition rate also appeared high that day.
If one hasn’t already been conducted, perhaps there needs to be an investigation into how Hilton players are conditioned for games as this might contribute to injuries.
@TheGoose: If there are injuries, it is more likely that the players are not properly conditioned or coached in the contact skills. The thing to do then would be to improve in these areas. Challenges are there to be overcome – not run away from. What lesson do the Hilton boys learn from this? When the going gets tough – run away. Surely the men from up the hill are made of sterner stuff?
What I heard from a Glenwood parent is that the number of injuries (serious ones like broken limbs and a jaw), is that it is no longer about the ‘sport’ of it and has become way too dangerous for Hilton to be playing against Glenwood.
Crazy numbers of concussions, hospitalisations etc don’t make sense in schoolboy rugby.
@Dixon’s: sorry I changed the blog to include their official comments
it seems as if the headmasters have released a statement about this…. Beet if you could get official confirmation
@Dixon’s: @GreenBlooded: No disrespect to DHS but a lot of their energy is being driven by 2016 (150th). After that they may well feel that 4-5 open teams and 2-3 teams per lower age group is just fine which would place them comfortably within the medium size rugby school spectrum, where there just happen to be a lot more local opponents of similar size.
In KZN rugby, Glenwood have generally been the pioneers of late and others have followed. But to me it does seem like the days of trying to keep pace are numbered. I predict that College and Westville will try to match Glenwood’s progress and look to compete against the best in the country for various reasons. I have a feeling the others in KZN may settle for a league that excluded the big 3 govt schools. What this will do to the quality of rugby at these other schools in the short term is uncertain (unlikely to be moving upwards) but if its managed well rugby it will be competitive and rugby at these schools will remain healthy. So the gap will grow probably grow between top and middle level schools but who’s to say that the middle schools don’t end up happier with this arrangement.
@Grasshopper: No reason for a school with 550 boys not to compete at a,b,c and 1 – 4 level. Maybe they not hunting talent as much as other KZN schools are doing………..
@Dixon’s: I think the flies are going to take some time to re-group. Not going to happen overnight. I truely hope that they do though – would be really nice to see the old foe back to full strength. Until then – Westville and College are our biggest local rivals and we should play them both home and away.
@GreenBlooded: hopefully with R50 million in the back pocket, the Horseflies will get back on track and a return fixture will be back on the cards… like it used to be!!!
@Grasshopper: not at all mate… if i was part of the hierarchy, I would have 1st hand knowledge and wouldn’t need to be told by someone in the know.
Im just an Old Boy who loves his school and schoolboy rugby.
@Roger: All round these trips are not easy on anyone.
Just the thought of organising transport, accommodate, missing school, being on the road for x no. of hours and the cost factor should provide plenty of incentive for schools to promote competitive regional leagues.
@Grasshopper: Or a return fixture against Westville.
@Cappie: Jeppe perhaps – KES no chance. KES already committed to Westville and College for the foreseeable future
Sorry, I was busy writing me previous message, got involved in work related matters, came back and send it, just to see the reasons have been issued.
Sad day indeed, You dont think school sport should be under 18 only and all boys under 19 should have to play club rugby
This is quite sad with the long history of sporting relations between the schools. At the end of the day though I suppose it is all about the educational experience and if Hilton as a “school” do not see the educational benefit in playing against a “rugby academy” then this is the right decision for them. This year Hilton did take a hiding but in the last two years the 1st XV games were close.
Yip, this is the first crack in the recently new Professional Area of school boy sport. This is what will start happening across the board. KC took a massive klap from GW this year and strictly speaking, as Hilton rightly say, this is not a contest – it is Super 15 against Vodacom Cup.
KC had a dream team who could compete in 2012 and 2013 – noting not one boy from that side were bought, but going forward, with the current recruitment rate, KC are going to struggle against GW.
This is going to become the sad reality, rivals between schools will be broken – as it will become a no brainer as to who is going to win the games. Very sad indeed – mark my words, Hilton have started, now watch a few others follow suit.
I’m pretty certain there will be an appropriate but most probably a disputable reason by Hilton for the withdrawal, and I’m also sure that Glenwood will accept it in the gesture it befell without making a huge enragement about it, alike Eldoraigne who withdraw their fixture against Affies last year. The issue was not intensified. It was accepted in the spirit of the moment.
I can feel a new traditional contest between Glenwood and KES and/or Jeppe in prospect, which will be a mammoth occasion.
tip of the iceberg Beet. One step closer to a super league – with the rest a tier down. Schools need to decide where they want to play and what their priorities are. I say well done Hilton – pretty sure they wont be the last.
and before the Greenies get upset – I am not having a pop at Glenwood, just stating facts
Also worth noting is that Hilton will play Kearsney in home and away matches in 2015.
I don’t really like the idea of home and away and I’m sure some may regard this as a bit monotonous but it does offer two fairly equally matched schools an extra opportunity to compete well from 1sts down to u14D.
For Glenwood it might be more tricky finding a replacement. An out of province opponent has to be big enough to play to provide all their lower teams with matches and the travel will come at a high cost with many parents already having had to fork out for trips to this season (Affies & Monnas). Perhaps a second fixture against Westville is the most feasible way to go.
I’ve amended the blog to include Hilton’s word on the cancelled fixture.
Really great to have official comment by both schools on a sensitive matter which has/had the potential to reflect both in a negative light.
@Dixon’s: it’s going to come out no matter what, you also confirmed how close you are the Glenwood hierarchy, probably one of them…..
@kosie: the private schools in KZN only have 550 boys so only compete at A team, 1st and 2nd’s. It’s a shocking decision really, I don’t think Glenwood would have pulled out, must have been Hilton. They obviously not too bothered about traditional fixtures….this may open a spot for a down the line fixture with Jeppe, KES or PBHS…
i know the exact reason, but cannot reveal it as it was told to me by a person who has 1st hand knowledge of the reasons and I respect the trust that i have with that person.
I will say that i cannot condemn Hilton for withdrawing from the fixture. I just hope they release a statement outlining their reasons. Very sad that such a long standing fixture is no more…..
@Grasshopper: I must admit, I am rather shocked at the withdrawal! Don’t know the school well enough to voice any opinion except to say that its a pity the long standing tradition will be broken.
Does the relative strength of the two schools not have something to do with the decision? I smell an Affies excuse!
Very sad indeed! Over 90 years down the drain. Could be the widening gap in strength down the line or buying of players, not sure. Hilton do some recruiting of their own. Hilton really battled this year even against tier 2 sides. There was that period of 4 years not playing, but that was over off field shenanigans. Maybe they wanting to play privates only eg Clifton, St Charles etc…schools similar in size…..
Could be the first of many. We wait and see. Very hard to guess the reasons other than Glenwood being too strong and maybe the spirit of the fixture being too sour. Why keep the reasons a secret?
So much I’d like to say on this topic but hopefully the reasons provided to Glenwood come to light first.
Very interesting. Seems to be a bit out the blue?
Well we know it cannot be for poaching players – Hilton being quite proficient at this themselves. It can’t be the klap they caught from GW this year either – because then they would probably need to drop some other fixtures too.