If you switch your telly over to Supersport HD at 14:05 this Saturday, 12 April 2014, you’ll be able to catch one of the top schoolboy rugby matches of the year between hosts Paul Roos and Grey High (PE). Something you might not know about or even pick during the broadcast is the use of the squad system.
What is the squad system you may ask?
Well it is when a school participating in a normal inter-schools match, decides to NOT play it’s 1st XV reserves during the 2nd XV game at all. As a result the 1st XV then has a reserve bench of fresh players that can be brought on as strategic replacements during the game.
It can be defined as a very professional like approach to school rugby, as it often means that some of the top open age group players at the school don’t get to play a full game and replacements no longer just serve the purpose of coming on for injured or tired players, they can be introduced as part of tactical changes.
Middle ground
I’ve been made aware of Grey College using the squad system in the past and my opinion on the matter has always been that I’m not opposed to it’s use provided that both teams set to play each other agree to it beforehand, otherwise to me it just seems like it hands one team an unfair advantage over their opponents. It is not unreasonable to believe that the outcome of a match could be altered in this manner.
Incidentally new Grey College Head Coach and rugby head Wessel du Plessis informed me personally that ever since he has been involved in the 1st XV coaching set up as an assistant, the squad system has not been used by the school.
I was also fortunate enough to also get comments from three well-respected and vastly experienced school coaches: Affies head coach Sakkie van der Walt, Boishaai’s long serving scrumming guru Richard Visagie and Frans van Niekerk, the head of rugby at Paul Roos.
Anti
When asked to give his opinion on the Squad System, Sakkie van der Walt’s feedback was:
“Only 1st fifteen on the day – reserves to play full game for 2nd team.”
Richard answered the following two questions:
Beet: “Should the squad system be allowed in school rugby?”
Richard Visagie: “No. All the other sides lower down are weakened in the process. Many players are disadvantaged by this.”
Beet: “If it is used, should one team be allowed to use it when the other team does not?”
Richard Visagie: “Most schools have a gentleman’s agreement or school policy not to do it.”
I have a feeling the anti-squad system will enjoy the most support. Many who read this will see this system as being contrary to the spirit of school rugby and/or spelling bad news for the future of the game at 1st XV level.
Pro
Frans van Niekerk had a very different take on the matter and was kind enough to provided the useful feedback below in response to my question to him about Paul Roos possibly being linked to using the squad system during the 2014 season:
“Concerning your enquiry with regards to a squad system. This is not a new concept. Grey College has used this system with huge success over the past years. There are a few factors that needs to be taken in consideration. I am only referring to the school’s first team (Paul Roos).
1. Depth. When you play with a squad you are weakening the lower teams. So if you have an abundance of talented players you can consider it.
2. The players wants to play. It is therefore not negotiable that the players in a squad has to share game time. This has to be managed very well.
3. A squad system can only be considered if the players on the bench is also good enough to start in the first XV. It is no use to substitute a good player by a less talented player only for the sake of fresh legs.
4. A squad does not have to be 23 players. Depending on your strategy it might be any number up to the max of 23. It might also depend on your opponents.
5. A squad system ensures that there is only limited movement and changes in your lower teams when players gets injured or needs to attend elite squad practices and trials.
We (Paul Roos 1st XV) have decided that given our circumstances we are going to use a squad system. At least up till June. The reason being the large number of tournament and games that will be played in conjunction with the WP rugby trials before June.”
Conclusion
Well three viewpoints have been offered above and as always all constructive input to be added in the form of comments below in support of one of them would be appreciated as would any different angles or overlooked factors relating to the topic.
@Maroon: O JA…….vergeet maar die rotasiestelsel….anders wag daar baie teleurstellings.
Los daai goedjies vir na skool….vir skolerugby is dit nie nodig….te veel nadele.
En as dit so goed werk,hoekom doen die Bokke en die Super spanne dit nie…..jy begin met die beste 15…wen die game…..en as jy doodseker is dat die game nie verloor kan word nie,gee jy die 2de span spelers bietjie blootstelling…….
Die vervanging van die skakelpaar en dus die skopper MAG NIE WEER PLAASVIND nie
@star: Don’t know whether to hide or look over my shoulder. Last time I had a stalker, the extremely well constructed Carryn D, back in grade 11, it worked out quite well. I don’t think this is the same….
Other than that, energy is fine, I can hold my own … but thanks for worrying
@Redblack White: Thats why I call them the Grey Sharks. I said that I should start supporting the Sharks when they have 6 in the starting 15. Before injuries, they had 5. But then again, even I have principles
@ Gungets- save some energy for the Suncoast Pirates Band day. The nippers need your support
@Redblack White: It has been the Alan Paton hall till now, perhaps the group is too large to get into the hall, or maybe it’s the new restrictions on vehicle access to the campus. It used to be a dog show when up there, but I hope we have dry weather. Weather reports have brilliant weather, 28 degrees on Saturday, so it’s going to make the boys sweat a little. I believe ou Beet is hoping not to cook … bad news daarso
5pm – eeisch. Feel sorry for the lads having to get onto the load platform of my towtruck and hang on all the way to Durban, but hey, into every life a little rain must fall hey. Jinga the dog’s palace is going to look marvelous when they finally get to Durbs. (Seriously though, poor buggers, another hour in a car after 8 hours in a bus, and no prospect of a trip to the beach unless we get up at sparrows tomorrow and they have a late game)
Hopefully we get the same two lighties as the last 3 years, won’t have to stop the dog from savaging them …
@maroon8: jy klink soos een van daardie manne wat so van die kant af hap en nie eintlik weet wat aangaan nie. Stelsel is niks nuuts nie en jy kan nie hierdie jaar met laas jaar vergelyk nie.
@Duppie: ken gelukkig nie die spelers nie,en voel jammer vir 16-23…veral as hulle beter spelers as eerste 15 is…….as jy bench met nr 2(haker) op jou rug en 16(reserwe haker) begin….sal dit dinge in die manne se koppe bietjie anders maak..Het wel laasjaar die geskarrel aanskou in Pe omdat ek daar bly en hoofsaaklik hul games kyk. Grey Pe is stukkend geskrum in die iste helfte en met 2de helfte…toe gaan ruil PRG sy stutte…..en so het dit aangegaan regdeur….ek dink as daar ‘n 3de span skopper op daai dag was,wat goed kon skop,sou hulle hom seker ook probeer het op een of ander manier…Dit kan of werk of nie. Sal interessant wees of PRG iets nuuts gaan begin. As dit egter nie werk nie en PRG verloor…….sal dit maar die einde van die idee wees met klomp rooi gesigte…….kan jy jou indink dit “backfire”
@BOG: They seek the greener pastures here in KZN………………..but sadly only after school.
Dis mos hoekom die Sharks nie in die hotel bly wanneer ons teen die Cheetahs speel nie – hulle bly sommer by hulle ouers!!
@Duppie: Very negative, sure. I suppose that is why so few, if any, seek “greener pasture” elsewhere.
@Gungets Tuft: Something that I have learnt from “negotiations”, if that dog of yours becomes too demanding, downgrade him from Dogmor to Spar dog chunks. That should serve as a reminder that he should not abuse his privileges.
@Gungets Tuft: Malema Suite – Impressive – I’ll now have to consider putting my guests on the EFF special (Everything For Free natuurlik) !
btw – D6 says collect PBHS boys at Barns- that’s new innit?
@Gungets Tuft: amen,and hopefully some other bloggers see the light,winning can’t be the only reason we love the game
This squad system is just a way to tell the boys outside the squad he has no hope in hell to advance through the ranks. In my days the A team coach was the ref for either the B or C team. Sitting as reserve for the team above showed that you are on the verge of being promoted. In other words it gives constant reason for the boys in the lower team to better his play and getting promoted. These schools will see the boys almost good enough will either leave their school or stop playing therewith depleting their depth.
If any Grey supporter is honest enough the competition between 1sts and cherries combined with the squad system meant a lot of unhappy boys with arguments which team is the best. Do yourselve a favour, go sit inbetween the parents of the Cherries during a 1st team’s game and listen to all the comments. And I promise you more negative than positive.
@PaarlBok: Once tradiditon and ethos become negotiable, or dispensible, what do you have left?
@Redblack White: And that, right there, is why the PBHS day is one of my season highlights. Even off the field, sitting with the parents, is a pleasure. It’s like brothers from another mother
And, just because of that, the boys I am hosting tomorrow will get upgraded to the Malema Suite. (PS – it’s still with the dog under the stairs, but they get their own blanket and pillow, and I de-flee the mutt the day before) …. so don’t say I karrent have loads of respect for PBHS.
And they get their Dogmore Chunks on a plate instead of a bowl. I have to blindfold the dog cosYcos he starts getting ideas.
Squads be damned – how’s this for schoolboy gees ! – It would appear, if I am reading my fixture lists correctly, that PBHS u/16 F and u/14E hockey sides are set to play two fixtures on Saturday – against MC u/16F and u/16G and u/14E and u/14F respectively – games are 5 hours apart – well done PBHS – would have been very easy to just have the normal games, but well done to you guys for stepping up – I know this is a rugby forum and the two games are vastly different – but hell man – I am impressed with our friends up North – BIG RESPECT!!
@PRondersteuner: Ek stem en kan nie dink dat enige reserwespeler (16 – 23) die squad system sal verkies nie, buiten soos jy sê met toernooie & feeste waar meestal net die 1stes speel nie.
Well, if they decide on the “negotiator” route, Im offering my services to the highest bidder. Halleluja to SBR for creating jobs. And a warning to those who do not take up my offer- I have learnt from the Russians. I only negotiate something that I dont already have. What I have, is non negotiable.
I think that it is inappropriate at schoolboy level. What is wrong with the traditional system of 2nds subbing for 1sts and so on?
I suspect that it is moot where smaller schools are concerned as they simply don’t have the numbers to have 23 man squads.
Obviously a festival where a squad is sent to play 3 games over a few days necessitates a squad of more than 15 players.
MHS used (probably still do) to have a policy of every member of the travelling squad starting at least one game at these festivals.
Hi guys. Sorry I’m joining this a bit late.
Believe me, the boys don’t like the SS too much. The regular 1st teamers wants to play every game and the benchers don’t like playing 10-20 min.
I know that even school rugby gets more and more professional, but I don’t think a SS for normal Saturday games are necessary. For rugby weeks and festivals it’s a different story.
@PaarlBok: The ambition to be tops in the country vs the development of children…now there’s a tough choice
@PaarlBok: Maybe in the dash to be tops we should not forget what we are all about
@Playa: Oh well, if you want to be tops in SA you need to think out of the box and prepared to be one step ahead of the others. Tradionals or ethos will bring you just so far.
@BOG: Bearing in mind that most schools would not use the SS, I believe the rule should be as simple as in the absence of the consent of the opposing team, a school may not use the squad system. The onus would be on the team wanting to use the SS to ask there opponents if it is acceptable. A simple YES or NO reply would be sufficient. If a school has 13 non-festival games, that equals getting answers to 13 questions over 5 months. Schools have to liase with each other ahead of a fixture anyway. This would just be part of the interaction.
You’ve also brought up safety consideration. One of the views offered was that the SS has the potential to reduce the number of player injuries due to rotation. I would like to know the flipside – what sort of injury risks is the school that has to play tired players against fresh subs exposing their boys to?
@PaarlBok: My point is if you aren’t good enough to make the starting 15, you should be playing for 2nds. Traditionally, the whole 2nd team would ‘bench’ for the 1sts.
@Mike: Exactly! There is absolutely no benefit for the boys with jerseys 16-23.
@QC86: You’ve hit the nail on the head there.
The squad system is a must for the easter festival games and Wildeklawer for any school. What the PRG coach was saying is that they will probably use this system only up to June to help prevent overplaying players…Most probably they will stop with the system just after the Boishaai game
The different level between 1st and 2nd teams in schoolboy rugby also play a role. If you are good enough, you are old enough ruling is always important. Its a wise schoolboy coach to bring his grade 11s through the bench into the first team. Pretty sure no grade 11 player wont mind doing it this way. Your grade 12 player is the one that wants to play every week.
@Playa: And there it is – your summary sounds so much better than BOG’s don’t you think?
@BOG – no negotiations – you play with what you have and give it your all (ask the MC boys who played the MC/Hilton, MC/Kearsney and MC/Westville fixtures in 2013)
@Playa: 100% @PaarlBok: you can’t run a school around parents feelings,schools have been attending festivals for 20 years and then return home to normal teams,all schools have injuries,you pick your best xv and the rest are 2nd xv,very simple.
@PaarlBok: I’m not saying it’s wrong or right. Any 1st XV who can afford to do it is doing something right with their systems because they have the players. I just don’t know if it’s in the best interest of the boys. Squad systems work most effectively at festivals because you play 3 games in a week. But during the regular season it just seems as though it’s beneficial for the school, but not so good for the boy.
@Playa: They do play, but they practise more. You cant expect a 5th team player practising all week with his team to drop now to the 6th team. Bet he wont play rugby.
My only gripe with this is that boys want to play rugby, and have fun full stop.Ask a kid who sits on the bench for the F team week in week out.I would rather my son played every week for the 5th team than watch him bench for the 1sts.Have a squad for festivals and tournaments by all means.But not for normal weekly fixtures.Boys must play rugby.
@Mike: Jake White and the All Blacks invent the word rotation. At the moment the Stormers use Schreuder and Groome, Liebenberg and Scarra as examples. In schoolboy rugby its even easier.
I believe that we just cannot hold it against those schools who have the depth to play with a squad. For instance Grey College could have a squad of 50 so it shouldn’t be a case of other schools with less depth being upset because their opposition has the depth. When you agree to play against a schools you play whatever is in front of you on the day.
However. My argument is that I don’t believe that boys from numbers 16-23 get the proper development rugby wise in a squad system. It’s one thing to train with the squad but it’s different to only get 20 or 10 minutes on a Saturday. It only makes a little sense if those boys on the bench are predominantly grade 11 and will be starting XV the following year. I also agree that some sort of agreement needs to be made between schools. But most of the time that agreement will be based on matter of opinion and coaching philosophy or the depth of your own squad that given year rather than what’s in the best interest of the game.
So, in summary of the opinions here, negotiations should precede every match to agree on the rules for the day. What the heck, if a team has suffered a lot of injuries during the season, lets agree to play touchies or for that matter, the width of the field only , just in the 22 mtr area, like some of the U 7 sides- barefoot
for festivals it’s 1st and 2nd team guys in the ‘squad’ anyway, it’s when you playing down the line fixtures you shouldn’t have a squad system….
@QC86: Bog told us there are rules. No way you practise one week with a squad of 26 , just to tell them next week we only have 15, so down to seccies the other 11. You’ll have 11 parents jumping up and down every week.
@Redblack White: Yep, agree again. I also remember in the past some of the better Under16 boys benching so they could get a taste for 1st team rugby if an injury occurred. The one thing I would add though is the 2nd team guys on the bench must keep warm, either by running up and down the sidelines or bringing in an exercise bike. On cold days in the midlands the boys can’t take a chance with injuries from not being warm. There is something special about a 2nd team oke who has played a full game already running on and giving his all for the school and the jersey….sometimes even outperforming the incumbent to secure their spot for the week after….happened at Westville vs Glenwood this year….the Westville 2nd team centre was the 1st team’s man of the match for Westville…
@valke: Dis iets heeltemal anders as die groot skole wat 8 U18 spanne het. Baie spelers in die laer spanne kry nie geleentheid om elke week te speel as hulle teen kleiner skole speel nie. Die squad sisteem help dan nog meer om meer seuns by die spel te betrek.
At festivals a squad system is the only way,because of the number of games played in a short space of time,but not at one off school fixtures,sorry no way.
You have to take the amount of rugby the top schools play in a season into account. Going to the festivals they play three in a week. If you start all of the matches with the same 15, hell they wont survive a month with all the injuries. Back in the tradionals days they were lucky to play half the amount of rugby the top schools play these days. Add trials and any coach doing otherwise by not having a squad system with rotation in place is just plain stupid.
(Hoop die Ingels is OK)
@Grasshopper: Agree with you here, definitely against the ethos. We are already on a slippery slide to full professionalism, it has to stop somewhere.
Here’s something that schools with “flagship”teams may not think about – and by flagship I mean where only the 1st and A-teams are of importance. If you are going to apply a squad system you might as well apply it across the board, so immediately you diminish the number of teams you field, and if each team is a squad, you also diminish the playing opportunities for at least 2/3 of the team ( ie the subs and those being subbed) Can you imagine what it would be like for MC vs GW – instead of the approx. 28 traditional fixtures , you would end up with say 19? Whew… let me get my paperbag quickly, hyperventilating……. On top of that, assuming a squad of 22, and all 7 subs getting game time, in my GW/MC scenario, roughly 152 boys out of 418 playing, would in fact get a full game ………… Wag n bietjie man… NOT SBR I’m afraid
Maybe I’m a tradionalist, but it should be no squad system at this amateur level. It’s always been the case the 1st and 2nd teams train together and 3rd’s and 4th’s, 5th & 6th’s etc. I played mostly 2nd team and always reveled in the opportunity to even play 10 minutes in the 1st team with the 1st team jersey on. To have that opportunity taken away from more ‘average’ players is wrong. I also don’t like this new capping system, by just running on for even a minute you get a cap. Surely you need to play at least 30 mins to get a cap…
@beet: I understand that schoolboy ( u/19 ) rules allow for “rolling subs”.
I guess if this is true, then I can see why schools would want to use a squad system. You could change your pattern of play by changing a couple of key players, if the situation on the field requires it. If it doesn’t work, you could just change them back.
Fortunately in our region, we do not have enough players to even consider this. We can barely put 4 open teams on the field, so everyone plays. Some even more than one game.
I agree with BHP’s different strokes for different okes!
However I still feel that when 2 schools meet on the field, they have to be in agreement on what stroke will be used and what won’t be used.
Now imagine if Saturday’s game hangs in the balance, then PRG brings on fresh legs impact players which swings the game their way.
At the very least there needs to be a rule that sets out conditions for the use of a squad system during a 1st XV match.
@BoishaaiPa: In top rugby is jou impak spelers seker die belangste. Hulle wen jou die wedstryd. Maar dis n kuns vir n afrigter om dit reg te bestuur sodat die spelers dit reg verstaan. Dit gee ook meer as 15 spelers die geleentheid om vir die first team te speel.
As a matter of principle, I dont enjoy to agree with the above two “gentlemen”, but rules are rules. Or are you suggesting “local rules” as in golf – rules changing with every match? The only difference between senior rugby and schoolboys, should be rules concerning safety- nothing more.
Different strokes for different okes!…If it works for your school and your environment and the boys accept it, then use it by all means. I just feel that a player that is always No 16 to 23 is not really part of a team..yes, he is part of the “squad”, but he is neither part of the seccies nor the 1sts core team…Always the bridesmaid..never the bride! There is something to be said for being part of a team!
As die A en B span dieselfde tyd oefen saam met dieselfde afrigter dan is dit n ander storie. Dit gaan nie oor die opdraf span nie meer oor die voorbereiding en oefeninge. As hulle apart oefen is dit eenvoudig dom om n A squad speler by die B span te gebruik.
Squad system maak sense vir die groot skole. Ek kan nie glo dat daar mense van mening is dat in vandag se professionele tyd dat die groot skole nie ten minste 25 na 30 spelers in hul A squad het nie wat in die week saam oefen nie. Die seccies kan dan hul eie ding doen met oefeninge gedurende die week. Dink julle dis regtig regverdig dat n haker of skrumskakel wat in die week oefen saam met die seccies op wedstryd dag moet afskuif na die C span om plek te maak vir die reserwe A span haker en skrumskakel wat glad nie saam die span geoefen het nie? en die C span spelers moet afskuif na die D span, D span na die E span., ens. Net eenvoudig n stupid redenasie.
To add every boy should have the opportunity to play a full game, by having a bench of fresh players it does not allow them that opportunity. Whilst on the subject, I also don’t agree with red cards at this level. Yellow cards fine, but red no. The boys can be disciplined on the Monday but should play. Losing a player takes away the contest…also they young boys they get heated and make mistakes…
Never squads, it’s against the ethos of school sport. The 2nd team guys must bench…