SA cricketer Herschelle Gibbs of Bishop’s has often been described as one of the finest SA schoolboy rugby flyhalves of all times. Interestingly when it comes to conversations about outstanding school flyhalves, there are still strong associations made to the performances of SA cricketing greats Peter Kirsten (SACS), Lee Barnard (KES) and Daryll Cullinan (Queen’s). Apart from Gibbs, Maritzburg College flyhalf Udo Goedeke also represented both codes at SA Schools level.
Photo by Grasshopper
I don’t want to steal SARugbyMag’s thunder so here is the comment and link provided by blogger Balikibaba:
Not really part of this thread, but just found this on another rugby site. One of the best Bishops sides ever.
@Balikibaba: school rugby is still u19. Just CW has been lowered to u18. If you want boys to stay extra year you’re more than welcome.
@Grasshopper: Glasshopper every year was good for Bishops in the 80’s and 90’s well early/mid.
@BuffelsCM: Pieter Loubser SA Schools 87&88 1st for Boishaai and 2nd for Bishops. Awesome with Ehrentraut…
@Grasshopper: in Hersche’s first year out of school got a few big knee injuries as far as I recall. I recall Harold Karele telling me will welcome him to the league. He was really good player. But 24 years in sport was best option for him remember ’92 rugby was still amateur and cricket was pro.
The question is not post matricking itself, but the abuse of the system by schools to “encourage” the participation of experienced players from other schools.
The sad decline in Bishops’ rugby standards over the past years clearly correlates with the removal of post matrics from their teams. They used to be really competitive in the age groups as well, but that is way in the past.
@Vleis: Basil Beys border collie I remember him roaming even to the graveyard fields for some action.
@Balikibaba: can you give us the results of that team? Our even that era of Bishops please. Very interested in their record mid 80s through mid 90s. I remember going to watch the match between Bishops and Swartland in 89 winners WP vs Boland. The backline was sublime.
@Deon Pitzer: Ag Deon, give it up, You’re embarrassing yourself in each and every attempt at a reply.
Ahh, yes, and we are all Anglican schools.
@Grasshopper: Peterhouse in Zimbabwe, where Tendai “Beast” Mtawarira and Brian Mujati went to school, was established by a former Rector of Michaelhouse at the request of the then Bishop of Southern Rhodesia.
@Grasshopper: There is that link – Bishops, St Andrews, Michaelhouse & St Johns are all Anglican schools.
I believe that the current head at Bishops is Guy Pearson who was rector of MHS until recently.
@Balikibaba: Ah cool, what about the Anglican link?
@Grasshopper: Oh, but, no, other than all being private schools, no other connection. Bishops’ brother school is St Andrews College in Grahamstown and in fact that game is the oldest derby in the country and as important to boys from both schools as Bishops vs Rondebosch and K Day.
@Grasshopper: Not a wierd question at all. Yes, he is.
@Balikibaba: this might seem a weird question, is there any connection between Bishops and Michaelhouse & Hilton? Isn’t the new Michaelhouse rector ex Bishops?
@meadows: Not sure where some of them are now. But, yes, travesty of justice about Turner and Kritzinger. Turner was the number one try scorer in schoolboy rugby that year.
@Playa: I was housemates with 2 Cormorants at Stellenbosch in the 90’s. Great guys!
@Playa: Thanks – always interesting to see what becomes of some of these talented schoolboys. The structure of pro rugby in SA makes it increasingly difficult for someone to focus seriously on academics and have senior rugby aspirations. I saw some similar comment on the talented 2008 Grey PE side a few weeks ago.
Of course schoolboy talent is no guarantee of success – there have been any number of outstanding SA Schools players who have not made the step up to the pro ranks.
@meadows: Kritzinger focussed on more on academics.He played for UCT when they won the Varsity Cup in 2010.There were about 5 guys from that Bishops side in the unbeaten under 20A side that I managed in 2007 & 2008.Not a lot of them carried on playing.
@Balikibaba: The 2006 Bishops side was outstanding. I thought it a travesty that Turner and the centre, Kritzinger, were overlooked for Craven Week that year. I know that Turner and Nick Koster are in the UK and Martin Muller is at the Lions but does anyone know whether any of the others carried on playing?
@Playa: By the way, that mate of mine now coaches the Holland Under 17 team.
@Balikibaba: LOL! I finished in 2000 (I was a cormorant from 1994 in the junior school
). Then came to UCT. Had a mate who was a stooge at White House in our first year, so I started following Bishops rugby then when he coached the Under 15Cs.
@Playa: lol…that was also a great side. When were you a cormorant?
@Balikibaba: And I thought the 2006 team was the best Bishops could do.
@Playa: Thanks, Playa.
WOW!Just WOW!
@Grasshopper: Late to the ruck.
’93 was Dale’s year. 22 out of 22. Grey Bloem & Paarl Gym scalps included .
@Deon Pitzer: Paul Roos must have had an exceptional team then. Besides Dale who also had a handy side, I know Selborne had a powerful side.Neither were unbeaten so maybe that’s how Paul Roos got the nod.
Rankings started in 1990. Grey Bloem was number 1 (Werner Swanepoel played in that side). Dale and Paarl Gym were joint 2nd.
Now let me watch this clip
@Roger: I am actually not sure what happened to him. No idea where he is now. I just know after school he ended up in Jhb somewhere.
@BoishaaiPa: LOL…if we counted them twice we would have twice as many Boks as Paul Roos!
Bali?..Why is S Boome listed twice on the board?..1998-00 and 2003?..I see some others earlier as well…Now I understand why Bishops have so many boks..they count them for each year they play!..
@Balikibaba: Brian was fond of a bit of off-the-ball stuff as well
He played Wits and Tvl U20a in 1991 alongside the former KES lock who played against Brian at Craven Week in ’89 and captained Tvl Schools in 1990 – man they were biiig at u20 level! I played with them both at Wits.
Whatever happened to Mitchell – he was not scared of a few beers and brawls in those days
@Vleis: Yes, I remember that year Nampak beat SA Schools. Quentin was a great player. Pity about his size. Even back then size mattered to a certain extent.
@Balikibaba: Well, at least he was modest. Although he did proudly recant how said B team (think they were called the Nampak XV) beat the A team that year!
Just before the ’95 RWC, I was having a beer with him at Forries when his mate who’d played 8th man for the English u19 team a few years before said that he had a nightmare playing the NZ u19 team…because the NZ 8th man was Jonah Lomu. Little did he know that his countrymen would agree wholeheartedly with his views a few weeks later.
In ’96 he captained the Oxford rugby 1st team, playing at centre.
@Vleis: lol..Quentin De Bruyn was number 8 that year. Small. Scored tons of tries but actually most of them due to his electrifying pace. He made SA schools B that year with the SA schools number 8 being Deon O’ Quinnigan from Rondebosch.
@Balikibaba: A chap that I studied with was 8th man in that ’89 team. Although he was not particularly big, he scored tons of tries from pushover scrums. I think he may even have broken a school record!
@Maroon: Thank you for supporting my point of view. Not everyone may have agreed with it, but to call it cheating is a rather big insult and it soured what was supposed to be a post about a clip of some beautiful schoolboy rugby.
@Ploegskaar: Pity about President’s decline. They played really nice rugby back when we were at school.
@BuffelsCM: Yes, Basil was not a fan of game plans. Before games his simple team talk was ” Play Bishops rugby, boys.” And that was no matter who we played against. I think the most planning we ever did regards playing another school was before we played Boishaai at Brug Straat. All he would do is get some traffic cones and put them 10 meters in from touch and make us practice running on a “narrower” field! LOL!
@BoishaaiPa: Haha……the one game they lost that year. Gibbs was in the West Indies and Fleckie played flyhalf. Corne smashed him so our dangerous backs never saw the ball. May have been different had Gibbs played, but Boishaai were brilliant that day.
@Roger: Very interesting about that Bishops front row of 89.
Tank Lanning was 128kgs
The hooker was Rowan Belchers and he was 110kgs
Dom Drake was 120kgs.
Bryan Mitchell’s story is interesting. He was first choice lock along with Andrew North. Both made final trials for CW. Mitchell got injured on the Saturday before final trials. CW selectors told Basil Bey that not to worry, they had already pretty much picked their team, Bryan would have been in it, but that Basil should just send his second tram lock to fill in for final trials. that guy’s name was Paul Searson. He played so well he made CW on the bench along with Andrew North. Both played so well that they were picked for SA Schools.
When Brian Mitchell came back from injury he played first team and Paul second team. So Bishops had a SA Schools lock playing second team that year! All in all that Bishops 89 side had 4 SA schools players.
@beet: I believe there was a laundry issue. True story
@Rhino: Yep, in 1993 I think, Michaelhouse had about 6 or 7 post matrics, the whole front row for sure. They were massive compared to our pack, it was men vs boys really. However, we only lost 10-6 in the last secs as we led 6-5. Barrett Pardey a ‘little’ 15 year old up against the MHS 19 year old was great to watch…
It was absolutely unfair !!! I remember walking out of change rooms and seeing these huge okes and thinking “oh fkuk” – Michaelhouse springs to mind but every BE school was similar…….
@meadows: some years differed from others …the MHS side of 91 was full of PMs ….I think there were 7 or 8 incluing an Ozzie schools fullback named Harvey ….however the next year only had 2/3 …..
IMO the influence of post matric players at the private schools is overstated. In my era (late 70s) when the “normal” age to finish school was the year that you turned 17 the average age of Craven week sides was probably 18 or 19.
a few arbitrary examples that era;
– I’m not sure how old Maritzburg College’s Paul “Bulla” Lindsay was when he played SA Schools in 1977 but I’m sure he was at least 18 or 19 as were loose forwards Mike Barker (DHS) and Paul Judkins from Glenwood and others. Barker played for DHS again in 1978, the year that he turned 19, and was picked for SA Schools.
This was pretty normal at that time and the private schools certainly didn’t enjoy any kind of size or age advantage that I can recall by virtue of post matrics. The results against College or DHS would bear that out.
Even the great Danie Gerber who played 3 years SA Schools turned 19 in his final year in 1977.
What is true however is that post matric was allowed to get out of hand in the late 90’s at MHS culminating (in ’97 or so if memory serves) in the return fixture with Hilton being cancelled and a complete rethink of policy.
: @Roger: At Grey PE against Kingswood, Bishops wore white jerseys.
@oldschool: Late John Botha, that is sad. Also late Paul de Bruyn from DHS after his horrific bike accident about 10 years back. Yes, John played 8 and prop, huge guy. In 92 we lost 11-13 to Kearsney, tight game that. Hmmm, that must have been between Sean Ribbink and either Van den Berg or Roger Weldon…
@Grasshopper: also KC only lost 2 games that year …DHS 7 5 and college 13 9 …..we beat that massive MHS side in the last minute on meadows !!
@Grasshopper: Ja , it was a scary front row… I played against the glenwood side and we won 8 6 I think ….I am sure the Late John Botha was playing flank in that game though ??
we were staying in the Gwood BE for the ascention weekend …. had a great party with the okes from Glenwood and college over that weekend ….
even saw a fight between the Glenwood lock and scrummy in the BE …. got to know John fairly well , was a great guy !
@RBugger: Sorry, don’t know the chap, or what happened to him.
@Grasshopper: and St Stithians and Monnas
@Roger: I thought Hilton and Queens were the only 2 wearing white jersey’s..
@Roger: All their other teams play in white jerseys..The 1st XV in blue.
I thought Bishops played in white jerseys – was I dreaming!
@Roger: The 92 Glenwood side had John Botha (110kg), Jason Kirton (100kg) and Leyton Pardey (125kg – KZN Schools). Massive to say the least. DHS had Paul de Bruyn, surely the biggest prop to play KZN schools ever, he was humungous! Glenwood beat Grey Cherries (14-10) at Kokstad festival, lost 3-10 to Boishaai at our own Ascension Festival (Corne Krige captained Boishaai), beat Grey PE (8-7), lost 0-12 to Wynberg, Boishaai (7-34) and Muir College (8-13) on tour. Michaelhouse and College were immense that year too.
@Balikibaba: I was in the army with Dominic Drake who was the “other” prop in that massive Bishops front row of 1989. Rumour was the Bishops front row of 89 were bigger than the Springbok front row who played against the World XV that year. Drake, Lanning and I can’t remember the hookers name – 320+ kgs!
I played rugby with Brian Mitchell at Wits – I think he also played in that 89 side – great player
@Grasshopper: Yip, he was a flyhalf.
@Vleis: Do you perhaps know what happened to a guy called Deon Venter? He played 3 years of 1st xv rugga for Affies, from 99-2001. He was a great centre and made the SA Schools side, he then played Vodacom Cup in 02, first year out of school.
I moved to London that year and never heard anything more of him – not sure if you know who I am talking about
@Grasshopper: AB played flyhalf for Affies and the Bulls Craven Week team. If memory serves, he kept out the current Bulls super 15 flyhalf (Jacques-Louis Potgieter), who had to play fullback.
@RBugger: What position? Scrumhalf?
@Grasshopper: I played against AB and he was a very good rugby player, not in the mould of Gibbs who could have been a great, but he was solid
@Ploegskaar: Cassie het as jong laaitie saam met my krieket gespeel..hy was n baie goeie keeper. Helius le Roux wat saam met Elmo vir Boland senter gespeel het se laaitie is ook nou in Landbou…
@BuffelsCM: Jy is reg oor Bennie en Jaco….Bennie se seun het laasjaar vir Boishaai stut gespeel en ook WP CW…Jaco se kinders ook in die Paarl op skool. Ek weet hy het n dogter in Girls High.
What is interesting in these clips are the amount of spectators. In the Paul Roos clip, playing at Markotter there were only a few or handfull of people standing on the opposite side of the field. Nowadays there are pavilions and people are 5/6 deep watching from the sides. SBR have grown significantly in the modern era.
Bali..I see no clips from the Boishaai game..
…Apparently the ball could not get pass Gibbs or Fleckie that day!…
Tank Lanning told me rugby was not really an option for Herschelle due to a serious injury he had….cricket was his only option. I heard AB de Villiers was a pretty hot rugga player too…
On topic again, it’s a very impressive Rugby International Honours board that, I reckon only 2 or 3 other schools in SA could compare. It is very early years heavy but still amazing. Well done Bishops!
Fleckie started his rugby while a pupil at Wynberg Boys Junior School and moved to Bishops halfway through his first year at High School. I understand that at under 13 level he played centre and Jaque Kallis played flyhalf and the team was unbeaten for that season.
I had the pleasure of watching Gibbs and Peter Kirsten play at schools level, both were very talented. If rugby had been professional at that time there is no doubt in my mind they both would have made great names for themselves in the game.
I am a great fan of the Basil Bey style of play.
@BuffelsCM: Bennie was number 8. According to a quick search Bennie represented WP in 1979 and 1980. His younger brother Jaco as far as I can remember played WP in 1984 – I think he went to Bishops as well after being in Boishaai.
Danie Gerber played SA Schools for 3 years and was 19 in his 3rd year. It could be done then but not now…….so everything was legitimate.
@Balikibaba: Hi Thanks for the link to the boys of Bishops.
In 2004 I attended a rugby course and Basil Bey had a session with us about counter attack. He was mentioning the fact that just about every team had a game plan / pattern but it would not have been possible to “coach Gibbs into a specific pattern”, the reason being that about 99% of the decisions he made on a rugby field were the correct ones !! Obviously Basil was not fond of the idea of a specific game plan.
To get back to the Post Matric students / scholars: As you have mentioned it was accepted as part of rugby and at the time the Craven week sides for instance were U/19 and not U/18. I was in Matric in 1979 and Bennie van der Merwe (number 8) who was at Paarl Boys’ High did a post matric the next year at Bishops. I think he wanted to make SA Schools but I can’t remember if he actually achieved it. I’ll have to do some research about that.
As far as I can recall Shaun McCulley matriculated in 1980 at Boys High as well and went to Bishops for Post Matric in 1981. Shaun played flyhalf and had a huge boot on him.
@Maroon: ’92 was my jaar, in President.
@Maroon: Kan wees? Hy’t gelyk soos ‘n tjoep en ons het van hom afgebons asof hy ‘n tjoep was
Tjoepie van den Heever?
@Ploegskaar: 1991 was my mateiekjaar Ploegskaar. Ek het ook teen DF krieket gespeel daai jaar.
@BuiteBreek: Korrek!
@Maroon: The Paul Roos draw at President (Bles Kemp was the 8 and captain) and win against Gym (Louis Koen at 10) was definitely ’92, just the Bishops game that I’m unclear about. I remember the ’91 game well, Justin Swart placed the ball on his toe in-goal and then ran the length of the field to score! Actually, all our teams got moered that day! I only have bad memories of the Markotter to be honest, arrived there in ’88 with our unbeaten u14 team and got klapped 74-0, a big oke called Tjoeppie must have scored 5 tries!
@Deon Pitzer: I suggest that you go read up on Bishops and the post matric system before making silly comments . Many other sides, including Paul Roos had 19 year old players in their first teams. 19 is 19, does not matter if it is an official post matric year at Bishops or somebody staying an extra year to improve grades at a government school.
I noticed an Ashley-Cooper appearing on the Bishops board. Must surely be a relative of Australian international Adam Ashley-Cooper
@Ploegskaar: Both President and DF Malan arrived undefeated at Markotter in 1991. Both lost badly. Nobody drew against us in ’91, so the year you must be referring to is 1992.
@Ploegskaar: En Elmo Wolfaardt en ‘n bloedjong Stefan Terblanche.
@Balikibaba: Sadly on the decline ever since, aging feeder area and better players going to Tygerberg and the Winelands schools, probably a 3rd tier school at best currently. Interestingly Marius was picked up by Nick Mallet after school to play for Boland in what was Nick’s first foray into provincial coaching (after his success with False Bay). Players like Marius Goosen, Cassie Carstens, Johnny Trytsman and Vion Wuim also played in that Boland team, to name but a few.
I was there with a Westerford Old Boy…probably met, haha!
@Balikibaba: me too, had about 6 beers…
@Grasshopper: I was also there and stayed around in the Heatlie pavilion for a long time after the game.
@Ploegskaar: President were rated in 91. I remember Basil Bey telling the guys that it was going to be a tough game. How have they fared lately?
@Balikibaba: last year, SACS vs Bishops derby. It was bizarre, Bushops 2nds put like 80 points past SACS 2nds then SACS 1st cruised to a win. The Bishops guys made some daft errors though, running from behind their own try line etc….I get Bishops run everything but not from there…..I was standing next to Brian Liebenberg…
@Balikibaba: Close enough for us against mighty Bishops
PD sounds about right, was evens ’till halftime, FT 22-10 if I remember correctly. Great memories with those games against Gym and PRG.
@Ploegskaar: Never made it that far I am afraid. Van Der Schyff made sure of that! Lol
How could I not know that school? President. It was 1992. It was 1991 I think. If memory serves it was not that close, but not a huge victory either. Maybe 15 or so points? I played seconds.
@Balikibaba: If you played u/13 trials down to the last 4 teams in ’87, we may well have played against each other. I think those final trials were held at either Bishops or WP Prep if memory serves me right. vd Schyff ended up playing for DF Malan.
WRT that small school, white jerseys with red collars, red numbers and shorts, and Gibbs’ biggest competition for the CW flyhalf jersey in ’92, Marius Moolman, playing at 10. Come on Baliki!
@Grasshopper: when were you in the Heattlie pavilion that you took that photo?
@Grasshopper: I was in grade 8; all I remember was a GW legend; Warren Groupy(ie); eeish those were the days. Labuschagne at full back. Mitchell Reed. Ian Vinn. Squeegee.
@Ploegskaar: I can’t remember that game, although we did also play DF Malan that year, but it wasn’t a close game. Come on….spill the beans and name the school! Lol
@Ploegskaar:
@BuiteBreek: and what about the DF Malan fly half, Brooks? Also a great player.
@Ploegskaar: I remember facing van der Schuyff in u13 Nuffield trials. I still have nightmares! Lol. What high school did he end up at?
@Grasshopper: Thankfully some people here understand what it was really about. The fact that. Deon thinks it was all about rugby makes me question his knowledge. Anyway, that being said, yes, in recent times it was abused and I don’t think it’s a bad thing that it has now been scrapped.
@beet: I may be mistaken but the Kirsten’s and Andrews are related and I know Keith Andrews went to Selborne.
@Deon Pitzer: So, if the fullback, Sakkie de. Villiers, who was a year young, had decided to redo Std 9 instead of doing post matric, you would have been ok with that? Ironically, he was considering that. I should know as he was a friend of mine at school. I do not know all the Paul Roos players from that year, but Jason Bent went to Paul Roos in std 9 and ended up as an under 19 player for them.
Deon, the fact is SA Rugby and WP rugby were ok with it back then and so. I am ok with it. That stance has now changed and I am also ok with it. You, however accused Bishops of being cheats, and THAT I am totally NOT ok with.
And, correct, this topic is boring and old. Please move on as you were the one who brought it up in the first place. Everyone else here is appreciating some fine schoolboy rugby skills. Maybe you should listen to that?
I see that Peter Kirsten was born Pmb, primary schooled at Selborne before going to SACS
@Ploegskaar: Very quick. Both he and Gibbs ran sub 11 for the 100 meters on grass and the other wing, Lorden, ran 11.2 if memory serves.
@Balikibaba: OK , then Bishops and a hand full of other private schools institutionalized grade 13. Comparing the one or two guys staying behind in other schools to that constant stream of grade 13’s, (actual) university first years or whatever. Come on Balikibaba, would you be able to defend that in a court (just for argument’s sake)? How could it not have given provided Bishops with an unfair advantage against opponents with school going, as a rule, up to grade 12? It cannot. I do not need to have a complete knowledge of the post matric system. The fact is that this school had more players available for three years due to an institutionalized system granting support for players to do just that. I know of three guys who stayed behin at PRG 1984 to 1991 (perhaps there were others before or after that), and I cannot and will not support that, but you state that the 1992 Bishops team had “only” two post matrics. That is just not a level playing field. I have had enough of this topic now. The facts speak for themselves, you just need to listen with an open mind.
@Ploegskaar: Gerhard was etter gewees. Dink ek het nogsteeds bloukolle van hom… Kopskerms was ‘n luukse en jy het dit maak op die lyf gevat, as jy nie betyds uit die pad kon kom nie. DF se pitch was ‘n mamba gewees. Dink nie enige iemand het dit geniet om daar te speel nie, behalwe hulle self. Tussen Tygerberg, President, DFM, JGM en Bellville kon mens met ‘n lekker tameletjie gesit het om ‘n Noordelike voorstede span op te stel. 1989 of 1990 was ook die eerste jaar wat Stellenberg ‘n matriekklas gehad het. Kan nie regtig onthou dat hulle daai tyd groot op krieket was nie. Maar dit is darem ook al 25jaar terug.
@Balikibaba: yep, it seems many here don’t really know what post matric is at private schools, basically it’s an extra year to write A or O levels to qualify for a UK university. Also, sometimes boys were 16 turning 17 in matric and the extra year helped them mature to a level where they could cope with university. It was a great idea until it got abused for sporting reasons. At Glenwood the 5 boys were studying towards a UNISA degree or sports science diploma…wrong in my mind, they should have been studying from home, got a job and played club level…
@BuiteBreek: Goeie krieketspeler, maar Gerhard vd Schyff was nog vinniger. Johan en Riaan v Niekerk en Derek Brand was ewe goed vir Tygerberg terwyl Laten en Snyman self blitsig vir JG Meiring was.
@Ploegskaar: Oja, hy was 1991 matriek en ‘n half decent krieketer ook gewees. Onthou hy het in 1990 omtrent my kop afgeboul in Bellville, en kon die wilger ook lekker swaai.
@Ploegskaar: Kobus was ‘n uitstekende speler vir DFM. Het sy skouer beseer, en dink nie hy het ooit weer herstel nie. Na skool bietjie gespeel vir Weermag en op ‘n kol ‘n paar games vir die Onderwys Kollege gespeel.
@Balikibaba: Nope, not DF, but Meissenheimer was a pretty good player. After scratching my head also pretty sure it was ’92 at the Piley, Gibbs still popped over a drop from distance.
@Balikibaba: That’s him, speedy player back then!
@Ploegskaar: Oh…DF Malan! That was 1991 and Bishops played them at DF Malan. 18 all was the score. Have i got the right school? Meisenheimer, the centre was their star player.
@Ploegskaar: The wing you are referring to is Thandekile Dlova. Was a great player. He never played rugby after school. I am still friends with him and he lives in Johannesburg now.
@Deon Pitzer: You are referring to Anthonie Botha. His dad sent him to Bishops for educational reasons. One year later his brother, Johannes, also came to Bishops and played 3rd team wing.
And if you can’t see the similarity between a matric u19 and a Post Matric u19 then you would have to be the ignorant one.
Remember, you have accused Bishops of cheating. But you fail to acknowledge that those boys you say Bishops cheated with were happily included in CW which means that you should accuse the WP Rugby Union of cheating too. And herein lies the truth, Deon. Yes, Bishops may have benefited from Post Matrics, but many other schools had boys who were u19 also playing for them as boys who had repeated a year. They benefited from this practice. And both of these groups of boys were deemed legible to play for both their province as well as country at SCHOOL LEVEL. WHAT IS YOUR POINT!!!?????
Here is another FACT for you. In 1989 the WP schools union called a special meeting to discuss the Post Matric issue. Basil Bey represented Bishops. At that particular meeting a few schools said they thought Post Matrics should be scrapped. Basil Bey said Bishops would happily consider this as long as schoolboy rugby was made under 19. You’ll never believe it but your school was one of the schools who objected to schoolboy rugby being made u18. And so Post Matrics continued to be accepted at PROVINCIAL and NATIONAL level as legible schoolboy rugby players and it is not for people like you to judge that.
Things have changed now and post matrics may no longer play schoolboy rugby in the Western Cape. Ironically Post matrics at Bishops still play other sports for the schools as part of what their parents pay for is an ALL ROUND SCHOOLING YEAR for their children (and that includes sport). Do you know when that ruling was made 2 years ago, post matric boys playing rugby for Bishops 7th team for fun were also barred from playing, including a boy from overseas who had never played in his life before. How fair is that? Who did that serve?
The problem is that someone like you has no idea what post matric is actually about. If I had to ask you I would bet big money on it that you would have no idea. I can see you have no idea because you say Anthonie matriculated a 2nd time. Umm maybe you should ask him if what he did in PM had anything to do with writing matric again. And great for him that he has great memories from his time at Bishops. As a 43 year old man now is that not awesome that he has fond memories of his time at Bishops? 6th form is a common practice in UK schools. You should research that maybe seeing as you are such an expert on the matter. Bishops’ model was always based on the UK schooling model seeing as though our founder Bishop Grey came from there.
As for how many boys came from other schools to do post at Bishops (you assume plenty) I can tell you from about 1987 onwards.
87. Pierre du Preez and a lock I think.
88. Pietie Loubser. Adrian Holdstock played the odd game first team.
89. no one
90. Anthonie Botha
91. Quentin Hill and Luke van Ees
92. No one.
93. No one
Not sure after this but I think the next one was Wes Chetty in about 2006 or 2007.
Another area you are sorely mistaken in is that you say Bishops institutionalized a 3rd year of playing schoolboy open rugby. No! Post Matrics have been around in Private Schools all over South Africa since the 1940’s and they have always been allowed to play schoolboy rugby for their schools. It has been the same at:
St Johns
Michaelhouse
Hilton
St Stithians
to name a few.
But the problem is is that you only knew Bishops as it is the only private school in Cape Town and so you vomit out insulting posts about them thinking that post matrics came from Bishops. Once again YOUR PERCEPTION is different to reality and fact.
@Balikibaba: No, another n/subs school, but maybe memory fails me and it was ’91, pretty sure it was ’92 though, same year that small school beat Paarl Gym and drew with Paul Roos.
@Grasshopper: Tank comes from him being a tank! lol 172kgs! That is HUGE!
@Balikibaba: Bishops institutionalized a third year of eligibility to play u-19. Many schools, including PRG, must have had some scholars “staying behind”, but if you cannot see the difference between this and having a permanent official Grade 13 eligible to play for the first team, well, then, its plain ignorance on your side. How could it not provide an unfair advantage to Bishops? How? Explain? You cannot. You would simply have to ignore the facts. I was not referring to the ranking of the 1992 team earlier. I was actually referring to my personal experience 84-88. Even one player per year, and there were substantially more in the 80’s, poses an unfair advantage. Ons of the I think 1990 Bishops players was in a high school in Worcester his entire high school career, but only in Bishops for post matric. He still reminisce today about his Basil Bey days. I am not sure how many, if any, “matriculated” a second time at Bishops. Just plain weird.
@Balikibaba: Flank? Where did he get the name tank? I have a 6foot8 172kg friend who knows him well and actually dwarfs him, who would of thought. That Waratahs lock yesterday reminds me of him….
@Ploegskaar: Brackenfel? That was 132-5. Or was it the Stellenberg game? Those were the only 2 Northern Suburbs teams we played that year.
@Grasshopper: Great guy. 88 and 89. in 87 he was under 16 prop but went on tour with the Bishops first team. The only game Bishops lost that entire year was to Grey PE. So many injuries, and not being able just to call up 2nd team players, that big Tank Lanning played on the flank! lol
@Deon Pitzer: You are so misinformed it is scary. VERY scary. Your PERCEPTION of what is reality is very skewed. It is your PERCEPTION that every Bishops team from 1950 to 2 years ago had myriads of Post Matrics in it. I can give you FACTS on many great Bishops sides that had ZERO Post Matrics. The 1992 team, which you just insulted earlier, had TWO, one of which was still under 18.
May I ask about the practice by some schools of keeping boys back in Std 8 or 9? That means they were also u19 by the time they were in their final year. What about that? And all you have to do to see how right I am is go back to old CW programmes and look at dates of birth next to players to see that many boys from other schools were playing CW when u19 and still in matric. How is that any different to a post matric u19? Under freakin 19 is under freakin 19! It does not matter whether a boy was PM or Matric.
I will not mention the school as I think its a great school and I admire them, but my housemaster at Bishops was the u16a coach at one stage. Bishops were playing this school and it was a very tough game. After the game my housemaster went up to the coach of said school and congratulated him on a great game and what a good side they had. The coach replied that they were very lucky because the side was such a young one. My housemaster, puzzled, asked the coach what he meant because u16 is either u16 or not. The coach replied what he meant was that 7 of the players were still in Std 7. Back then, you would know that generally you were in Std 8 when u16. So, that means that when Bishops (or any other school for that matter) came up against this school 3 years later at open level, SEVEN of them will have been the equivalent of post matric. But, I don’t suppose you understand that logic now, do you? Because you are so freakin one eyed.
And,Deon, the fact is, CW was u19 then and schoolboy rugby is still u19. And MANY BISHOPS POST MATRICS played CRAVEN WEEK while in POST MATRIC, so by your rubbish theory WP rugby also cheated. Oh, but wait, many Post Matrics from Michaelhouse and Hilton also played CW for Natal. Oh, and also the ones from St Johns for Transvaal back then. Oh…..hang on….so by the theory of the great bright Deon Pitzer, EVERYONE WAS CHEATING!
Be very careful before you accuse anyone or any institution of cheating, big guy. It is one helluva accusation to make. It also says a lot about you I am afraid.
This silly conversation is now over. I got personal because you made some idiotic unsubstantiated claims and accused my alma mater of being a school that cheats. Not because I was presented with facts. I have the facts. You have assumptions
@Balikibaba: I met Tank Lanning re work recently, good guy. What year did he play at Bishops?
@Grasshopper: Agreed, Hopper. But I can guarantee you that anyone who ever played 1st team at Bishops be it as a matric, Std 9 or Post Matric would be legible to play in a Craven Week under 19 team before they made it under 18, which means they were compliant with all SA Rugby school laws. This is why, if Deon Pitzer wants to know, I get personal. Because he has accused a great school of cheating. Which does not say much about him. And I make no apologies for getting personal.
@Andre T: BWAHAHA!My dad says he remembers him playing for the Bishops 86 team too!
@phat55: Thanks Phat.
Back in Vrede we had a 21 year old playing for us at centre. He used to keep a packet of Paul Revere’s in his jock strap and sometimes ran into tackles with a cigarette in his mouth. He used to light them every time we were behind the goal posts waiting for the opponents’ conversions. Sometimes up to 9 times a game…………..except 1948
Many schools had post matrics in the early to mid 90’s, in KZN Michaelhouse and Hilton had the most. Some of the gov schools followed with maybe 4 or 5 per year for 3 years until it was stopped in about 98. You can’t scratch all those results. If the boys were under 19 it was fair and square but some were 19 turning 20 playing against 17 turning 18, massive difference. I remember Barritt Pardey at 16 scrumming against a 19 year old behemoth from Michaelhouse, dangerous and unfair…
@Balikibaba: Getting personal and insulting again when faced with the facts? Bishops had a policy of retaining some of their players for an additional year. This is a huge and very unfair advantage over other schools. Therefore, any rating of Bishops until the powers that be dismantled this cheating system, would be, from a scientific and moral standpoint, null and void. What do you not understand? One additional year at under 19. Bishops is still an admirable institution with a top rugby team, but after the post matric system became ineffective wrt rugby, a well correlated and conspicuous drop in rugby achievements occured. The old principle of comparing apples with pears. It wont be a new principle to you, just hard to apply when it proves your own comparisons and ratings and opinions skew.
@Balikibaba: Pity, there was one particular result I was looking for, against another small northern suburbs school on the Piley. No footage available on that game on the video clips of all the Bishops home games for that year either, Bishops won but it was a close affair. Can you remember Ndlovu that played on the wing around that time for Bishops?
@Balikibaba: geez!! some seriously silky skills on display,no surprise that they were ranked no1 that year.looked a damn classy team!
@Deon Pitzer: And get your freakin facts right, plonker. Schoolboy rugby was u19. There was not ONE boy in ANY Bishops side who was not u19. What you are doing is accusing a great institution of cheating. What you also do not know is most of the boys who did Post Matric stayed because they were a year young for their year, which made them still under 18!
But because you have sour grapes you make ASSUMPTIONS that all these boys were old. Please, Plonker, before you make willy nilly idiotic statements, go and do some proper research and back your comments up with fact.
Geez, it irks me when idiots like you poke your head up from the sewers and make unsubstantiated, unproductive comments. Back to where you crawled out from please.
@Knight_CHS07: Loads of flair in that side. It used to attract huge crowds.
@Ploegskaar: I can’t find the exactt results, but they lost to Boishaai at Brug Straat. And, thene, believe it or not, had the usual Bishops capitulation, and lost to Stellenberg! taking nothing away from Stellenberg who have produced some really good sides over the years, that years side was not in the same league. It was POURING with rain and somehow Bishops transpired to try play running rugby in a blizzard.
They then won all their other games. Most of them by over 40 points.
As I said, SA Rugby magazine rated Bishops and Boishaai joint number 1 that year.
@Grasshopper: Agreed. There was so much more flair in those days.
@Vleis: That dog was Andy, Basil Bey’s dog. Andy was almost as big a legend at Bishops as Basil was.
@Deon Pitzer: I should not even bother responding to your pathetic post. for your info 92 had 2 post matrics. Sakkie de Villiers the fullback who was a year young, and Mark van Buuren the centre. That is 2 out of a squad of 20. How many Paul Rood boys were u19 that year.
Get a life please and make some positive comments. This one is pathetic and embarrassing to not only you, but other Paul Roos old boys, which is a great school.
And all I was doing was bringing out a clip of some beautiful schoolboy rugby played back then. You have gone and soured that because your old school features so heavily in that video. And by the way, of the try scorers in that game, 3 were still in Std 9. Go smoke a pipe, you loser.
@Balikibaba: Oh c’mon Balikibaba. Bishops had a very unfair advantage while post matrics were eligible to play for them. How scientific can it be to rate a team with a substantial post matric element against other teams without post matrics? Today, articles appear on overaged boys being caught out when representing their school sides. Yet, electing boys of that same age was official Diocesan policy. Its simple, if you cannot become no. 1 in an honourable way like GCB, then don’t lean on your past. @Grasshopper, 1991 was most definitely not Dale, it was Paul Roos all the way. That was the first year of rating if I recall correctly, and it was an easy choice for no. 1.
@Balikibaba: Two other interesting moments in the clip are the dog on the field and Gibbs putting Kallis on his bum in the in-goal area.
@Dixon’s: The guys were certainly smaller back then, but check out the skills……no bash, bash,bash…
wow! i wonder if there are any more videos like this lying around…. guys check in the cupboard at home ask your mums and dads if they took any videos of 1st team rugby back in the day and post them. what a treat to watch! to relive some of the memories or to show the younger okes what made us love schools rugby
@Balikibaba: Can you dig up all the results for the ’92 side and list here?
@Balikibaba: nice clip, the good old days with a proper leather ball. It was my standard 6 year so remember all the talk about Bishops in the Cape. If 92 was Bishops year, surely 91 was Dale…..exceptional side that…..Steven Hall at lock…unfortunately the 90’s were dark for Glenwood, probably our worst decade…
@Knight_CHS07: @Knight_CHS07: In about 2000 or so, SA Rugby Magazine did an article on the Top School Rugby side in the 1990’s for each year. Not a top 10, just the number 1 each year. Bishops and Booishaai were given the number 1 spot for 1992. 3 Springboks came out of that side. Boome, Fleck and Von Hoesslin. In fact Fleck played most of the year 2nd team, being kept out by captain Hilton Houghton who surely would have gone on to higher honors had he not had mental issues. Also in that side, as you know, was Gibbs, who would have been Bok number 4 from the side had he chosen rugby. In that clip you can see him rounding future Bok, Louis Koen, against Paarl Gym.
@Balikibaba: I’ve seen this video a number of times, and every time i watch it my jaw drops
. I mean if the guys in that 92 1st XV were 21 years younger…i think the Bishops would have a national top 5 finish this year.
I had no idea that “flair” existed in those days
…clearly i still have a lot to learn 
@BuiteBreek: Yes, some great teams then too. 89 was exceptional and Ehrentraut was captain. They did have 4 SA schools players. One of them was actually the 2nd team lock. If anyone is interested I will tell you that story.
@Balikibaba: In the 80’s Bishops had a couple of serious teams. I remember the 1989 team, and not to fondly
. Think they had 4 SA schools players that year, but I could be mistaken. And Michael Ehrentraut was the captain?
Not really part of this thread, but just found this on another rugby site. One of the best Bishops sides ever.
http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/1992-bishops-1st-xv-highlights?fb_action_ids=10153946563460562&fb_action_types=og.comments