Analysing the 78 SA Schools representatives for 2013, shows that Kearsney from Botha’s Hill in KwaZulu-Natal (KZN) and their Methodist brother school St Stithians from Randburg in Gauteng top the list with 5 representatives apiece followed by the likes of Affies (Pretoria), Paarl Gymnasium and Rondebosch (Cape Town) with 4 each. As a provincial region, no one comes close to the Western Cape (41%) and even by splitting the province into Western Province (WP), Boland and South Western Districts (SWD), WP still commands a 33% share of the overall pie.
| Rep’s Name | Sport | School | Region | Province | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Leolin Zas | Rugby | Hermanus | Boland | Boland |
| 2 | Chris Hawkridge | Hockey | Parel Vallei | Boland | Boland |
| 3 | Ngazibini Sigwili | Cricket | Hudson Park | Border | Border |
| 4 | Savesh Naidoo | Hockey | Selborne | Amatole | Border |
| 5 | Thabani Mtsi | Rugby | Selborne | Border | Border |
| 6 | Marco van Vuuren | Rugby | Transvalia | Valke | E.Gauteng |
| 7 | Malcolm Jaer | Rugby | Die Brandwag | EP | EP |
| 8 | Bradley Bopp | Cricket | Grey HS | EP | EP |
| 9 | Jason Everzard | Waterpolo | Grey HS | EP | EP |
| 10 | Nichlas Beswick | Waterpolo | Grey HS | EP | EP |
| 11 | Charlie Bowren | Hockey | St Andrews | EP | EP |
| 12 | EW Viljoen | Rugby | Grey College | Free State | Free State |
| 13 | Ruan Kramer | Rugby | Grey College | Free State | Free State |
| 14 | Ox Nche | Rugby | Louis Botha | Free State | Free State |
| 15 | Refiole Rampeta | Rugby | Louis Botha | Free State | Free State |
| 16 | Dayne Jagga | Waterpolo | Clifton | KZN | KZN |
| 17 | Jeandre Pieterse | Waterpolo | DHS | KZN | KZN |
| 18 | Andile Phehlukwayo | Cricket | Glenwood | KZN | KZN |
| 19 | Daniel du Preez | Rugby | Kearsney | KZN | KZN |
| 20 | Jean-Luc du Preez | Rugby | Kearsney | KZN | KZN |
| 21 | Julian Lewis | Waterpolo | Kearsney | KZN | KZN |
| 22 | Nqobile Ntuli | Hockey | Kearsney | KZN Coastal | KZN |
| 23 | Ryan Wallace | Hockey | Kearsney | KZN Coastal | KZN |
| 24 | Siya Nolotshungu | Hockey | Maritzburg College | KZN Inland | KZN |
| 25 | Tyson Dlungwana | Hockey | Maritzburg College | KZN Inland | KZN |
| 26 | Matthew de Sousa | Hockey | Northwood | KZN Coastal | KZN |
| 27 | Brandon Thomson | Rugby | Ermelo | Pumas | Mpumalanga |
| 28 | Conraad van Vuuren | Rugby | Nelspruit | Pumas | Mpumalanga |
| 29 | Driaan Bruwer | Cricket | Affies | Northerns | N.Gauteng |
| 30 | Francois Steyn | Rugby | Affies | Bulls | N.Gauteng |
| 31 | Jurie Linde | Rugby | Affies | Bulls | N.Gauteng |
| 32 | RG Snyman | Rugby | Affies | Bulls | N.Gauteng |
| 33 | PJ Toerien | Rugby | Garsfontein | Bulls | N.Gauteng |
| 34 | Khumo Mokale | Hockey | Pretoria BH | North Gauteng | N.Gauteng |
| 35 | Abongile Nonkwantana | Rugby | St Albans | Bulls | N.Gauteng |
| 36 | Justin Phillips | Rugby | Waterkloof | Bulls | N.Gauteng |
| 37 | Joseph Dweba | Rugby | Florida | Lions | S.Gauteng |
| 38 | Grant Roelofsen | Cricket | KES | Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 39 | Yaseen Valli | Cricket | KES | Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 40 | Keith Dudgeon | Cricket | Parktown | Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 41 | Dan Trinic | Waterpolo | St Johns | Central Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 42 | Kyle Lion-Cachet | Hockey | St Johns | South Guateng | S.Gauteng |
| 43 | Roarke Oliver | Waterpolo | St Johns | Central Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 44 | Claudio Fernandes | Waterpolo | St Stithians | Central Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 45 | Kagiso Rabada | Cricket | St Stithians | Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 46 | Keegan Kieck | Hockey | St Stithians | South Guateng | S.Gauteng |
| 47 | Luke Hunter | Waterpolo | St Stithians | Central Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 48 | Lwazi Madi | Waterpolo | St Stithians | Central Gauteng | S.Gauteng |
| 49 | Dewald Human | Rugby | Outeniqua | SWD | SWD |
| 50 | Duhan vd Merwe | Rugby | Outeniqua | SWD | SWD |
| 51 | Remu Malan | Rugby | Outeniqua | SWD | SWD |
| 52 | Warrick Gelant | Rugby | Outeniqua | SWD | SWD |
| 53 | Alex Stewart | Hockey | Bishops | WP | WP |
| 54 | Max Herbestein | Waterpolo | Bishops | WP | WP |
| 55 | Ryan Julius | Hockey | Bishops | WP | WP |
| 56 | Jamie Christians | Hockey | Fairmont | WP | WP |
| 57 | Daniel du Plessis | Rugby | HJS Paarl | WP | WP |
| 58 | Thomas du Toit | Rugby | HJS Paarl | WP | WP |
| 59 | Grant Hermanus | Rugby | Paarl Gim | WP | WP |
| 60 | Jacques Vermeulen | Rugby | Paarl Gim | WP | WP |
| 61 | JD Schickerling | Rugby | Paarl Gim | WP | WP |
| 62 | Rikus Bothma | Rugby | Paarl Gim | WP | WP |
| 63 | Daniel du Plessis | Rugby | Paul Roos | WP | WP |
| 64 | Paul du Plessis | Waterpolo | Paul Roos | WP | WP |
| 65 | Cracker Ash | Waterpolo | Reddam | WP | WP |
| 66 | Kenton Mobey | Waterpolo | Reddam | WP | WP |
| 67 | Tim Rezelman | Waterpolo | Reddam | WP | WP |
| 68 | Dayaan Galiem | Cricket | Rondebosch | WP | WP |
| 69 | Matthew Christensen | Cricket | Rondebosch | WP | WP |
| 70 | Zubayr Hamza | Cricket | Rondebosch | WP | WP |
| 71 | Zubayr Hamza | Hockey | Rondebosch | WP | WP |
| 72 | Brett Wrightford | Waterpolo | SACS | WP | WP |
| 73 | Justin Joubert | Waterpolo | SACS | WP | WP |
| 74 | Shane Fourie | Waterpolo | SACS | WP | WP |
| 75 | Clyde Fortuin | Cricket | St Josephs | WP | WP |
| 76 | Quinton Dreyer | Hockey | Wynberg | WP | WP |
| 77 | Robert McKinley | Hockey | Wynberg | WP | WP |
| 78 | Ryan Crowe | Hockey | Wynberg | WP | WP |
[…] with this change, the Western Cape region comes out on top just like it did in 2013 (click here for 2013 analysis) followed a lot more closely this time by KZN with Gauteng third and the Eastern Cape making a […]
@Tjoppa: I agree. We need to change the boys into learners.
But, another fact is that boys normally start to catch up with the girls at about grade 11 (academically speaking).
@BOG: That must have been my GCB mate who you saw!..I was on the beach most of the time!…Negativity as in critisism…You can speak the truth without being overly critical!
Ek het geen idee hoeveel seuns se ouers skielik Bloem toe “verplaas” is nie, maar indien daar enige is, wens ek hulle sterkte toe..Ek steur my maar in elke geval min aan o/14 en o/15 uitslae…Dis op die meeste n riglyn!
@BoishaaiPa: I saw, what most people described as a statue, on a balcony in J-Bay. Statue because his position never changed over a period of more than a week- eyes pointing to the sky and a bottle of sorts to the mouth. I trust that in 2014, we can disagree more often than what we did in 2013 and to start the ball rolling in this regard, I must point out that truth and reality should not be confused with “negativity” Kan jy miskien bevestig hoeveel van julle 2013 O14s sal hierdie jaar vir GCB se O15s uitdraf?
Hello again in 2014 to all the SBR supporters. Hope you all had a splendid festive season and that 2014 will be a great SBR year. I hope the comments will be in true SBR spirit and that we can appreciate the art of SBR without being negative towads each other. Some teams will do better ,some worse, but each coach and boy will strive to give their best as I dont think anyone plays this game to lose!..So support your team through the bad times as well as the good in the same manner and all should be well!
@valke: Dewald Human and Cheslin Kolbe times would be very interesting…
@kcob: I believe the quickest 40m times for rugby players is set between 16 – 18. After that they become to bulky, hence the relative slow Springbok times ( 5.25)
If I remember correctly 3 boys ran faster than 5 sec. at the 2012 u/16 SA High Performance camp, with Llewellyn Hein from, Free State, quickest with 4.66. The Valke fullback, Martin van Wyk did a 4.93 if I remember correctly.
These were all electronic times, which is on average about 2/10’s slower than hand times, wich means a good hand time would be around 4.7 – 4.8.
However, this is not going to bring you any closer to Craven week selection.
@Tjoppa: As ek tussen die lyne lees behoort ons darem n wedstryd of twee te wen die jaar.
@Tjoppa: As ek so tussen die lyne lees kan ons dalk n wedstryd of wat wen die jaar :wink:.
After a very hot day- boys crashed after another intensive day on Stott. It all gets going again on Tuesday at the high performance centre. Size is going to be a problem so technique and pace going to be the key this year for Kearsney.
@Grasshopper: from 17 – 21 April 2014
@kcob: Wow, that is interesting. Jaco is quick, but never knew he was that quick. Certainly should be on the flank then instead of at 8. I think Glenwood will play Staples at 8 then and Jaco flank. Kearsney may surprise a few this year if prepared properly and playing as a team, similar to Michaelhouse in 2012……who knows. Yes, also looking forward to a great 2014 year. I will be up in Durbs on the 15th of March for what is set to be the biggest Durban derby of the year, let’s hope it’s played in the right spirit. When is KERF this year?
@Grasshopper: Um, GH; interesting stats at the KZN Squad Training was Jaco Coetzee was quickest in whole squad. Not all kids were in boots though on grass track. He’s quick that kid; and size to boot. I hope his injuries abate as I think he could be a star this year. Morne is quick too; third I think.
I think KZN u18 could be very quick, intelligent team this year; but again will lack proper size all round to match the Bulls and others. I hope Grant Bell and Barend and the guy from St Charles play super-dooper smart rugby this year. Jake white showed this in the Brumbies.
Looking forward to some good SBR. Hope everyone here is less critical of the boys and schools and is more supportive of all the kids and match ups.
Some posts and banter last year was not cool to say the least.
@Woltrui: Ouetehuis is weer oop na die vakansie. Twee nuwe nursies bygekom. Lyk my die jaar gaan opwindend wees. Hoe lyk die dinge daar by Affies? Weet jy hoe 1ste span moontlik gaan lyk.
@Djou: Much harder to get 200 boys to pass than 400 “learners”. And that is not stats that’s fact.
@Buffel: Impressive! I wonder what Spam Ncgobo, Morne Joubert and Chris Bredell can do….all very quick…
testing at Kearsney yesterday-most of the squad were around the 5.35,Some dipping under the 5.30 mark for 40m. T.Tedder 5 sec dead. Hall 5.18. All boys looking great and really pumped for the season ahead. Spoke to the boys last night and they said that they are looking forward to today’s action . Less than 2 months away-Tour to Vryheid . Extensions to the Basil Medway stand are well on track for the KERF and will add a few 100 bums on seats under cover. Northwood then the big local Derby-Westville. Roll on SBR.
Nope lighties time for his 40m was 5s; Trist Tedder
@kcob: yeah, my best at 18 was 6secs for 40m and I was a flank. You doing some coaching or training?
@Grasshopper: Hi GH. I found the requirements required of the 2007 winning WC Boks. Insides backs was 5.25s for 40m. Cool.
@Tjoppa: I am not desperate neither illiterate, but stats are my game and I know what to believe and what not. And some government stats can be believed. It might surprise you, but big data stats all over the world are estimations, not just in SA. It is only in physics and other natural sciences where you can find precise stats.
@Woltrui: So you now want to bicker about number 1 in academics. Read the criteria above. It is not just about the number of learners.
That said, it is much harder getting 400 learners to pass than 200. Nevertheless, there are also category winners. Affies Girls won the category for most learners qualifying for further studies – I think some 95% of them qualified. This is a magnificent achievement.
So congratulations to everyone that passed and to their teachers – now the real life starts.
But still Wollas, why do you congratulate me on Garsfontein’s performance? I had absolutely nothing to do with their performance, I am not even remotely close to them.
@kcob: I do know 4.8secs is great for 35m so 5secs for 40m is pretty blitz!!!
@Woltrui: yeah, weirdly day 2 was a declaration day. Would have preferred a 50 over game with a result.
@Grasshopper: Thank you Hopper. Eish, draw is like kissing your sister, I heard.
Craven Week…
Anyone know of what a good 40m speed test for Craven is? Any comparisons for me? 5s dead, how does that stack up?
@Woltrui: yeah, KES 246 all out, lost Roelofson early and did well to fight back. Phelekhuwayo was playing but weirdly not bowling, not sure why. His bowling was missed. Glenwood on 183/7 fighting hard. KES were 187/7 at one point. Game ended now in a draw, probably fair reflection.
@Grasshopper: Any news on the cricket Hopper??
@Tjoppa: Hehehe! Welkom terug Tjop!
@Tjoppa: nice one! Going to be hard for DHS to do that but good luck to them, derbies produce weird results…
@HORSEFLY NO.1: As long as you whipp Glenwood we all love you.
A little late but a massive well done to the matrics and their schools for their results !
I do think the usage of 6A’s or more as a ranking system is skewed due to number of students varying per school.
Lastly, I hope 2014 will be a cracker rugby year with matches to remember !
@Woltrui: Only desperate and illiterate people attach any value to goverment’s stats.
@Gungets Tuft: great post! Totally agree, boarders do fair better as they have not been mommied! I also agree judging based on exemption rate and avg A’s per pupil is a good indicator. Some schools harp on about maths and science, which is good but we also need practical people doing TD, electronics, IT, business and accounting. Life sciences seems a waste, far too easy. If a school can deliver an average of 2 A’s per pupil they are doing well. 100% pass rate is not ways possible with very weak or lazy kids. Private schools are an exception here as they have entrance exams and weed out the weak early on. College, Glenwood, DHS, Northwood and Westville are doing their prime jobs, educating the youth as best as they can…..all great schools offering parents different things. It’s like saying a Ford Focus is far better than a Golf, not true just different!
@Djou: Hi Djou. Congrats to Garsfontein for the accolades from the Gauteng Education Dept. If the Dept want to make a competition of the best academic school in Gauteng they should level the playing field. At the moment they give the top school to the school who has the most distinctions. The Makro schools like Garsies, Menlo and Kloof, who has between 250 and 300 matrics will always be in advantage against schools who have only 100 0r 200 matrics. How can a school like Overkruin for example compete against those big schools. Even if every matric gets 2 distinctions they will still fall short against a Makro school whose matrics only get one distinction per student on average(for example). I want to speculate that Affies girls is by far the best academic school. On average their students get a much higher percentage than any other school in Pretoria.
I don’t want to take anything away from Garsies. Great things happening there and hats of to their headmaster and teachers who must put a lot of effort in.
@Woltrui: thanks Woltrui, with 7 previous cricket Springboks we are usually top 20ish. We have had an SA Schools and SA under 19 player consistently for the past 3 or 4 years. We are also missing Andile Phelekhuwayo who is away with the SA under 19’s, only 17 and going into matric. Genuine all rounder, opening or first change and bats 6 or 7. KES will be tough for sure!
@star: Well, then lets make it apologies each way then – reactions have certainly escalated. My reaction was only due to the latest comparison of distinctions at first team level, which if unchecked will lead to an exhausting comparison for cricket, hockey, swimming etc, where the measure is flawed (if 1/2 the team is grade 11 there are no disctinctions to be had). I reacted, I apologise.
I will stand my ground on consistency – which is what I did at the end of 2011 when College had some outstanding results – in exactly the same way as I will do when sports records are quoted – I am a techie and analytical (many would say completely obsessive compulsive) so claims are either right or wrong.
Schools results rankings on academics is no different to rugby rankings, I am interested and would like to know, hence my question to Djou. If we are honest then academic rankings should be as important as any of the sports rankings, just not to a dire level of analysis, generally used when more broad analysis fails to produce a “suitable” result. So, I am interested in the overall rankings for KZN, still cannot find one.
As for the comment that I think started all this – how they decide on top students – I still don’t find any consensus. Kids get invited to awards ceremonies as top 10 in SA, then a different measure has them 5th in their region – it’s inconsistent and useless. So, I like the percentage pass, and percentage varsity pass, it is all the evidence I need that College is the right place to launch into life. Number of distinctions per candidate is nice but not overly important. If my views have changed slightly on this in the last year, it is through the experiences of my daughter who has just finished 1st year varsity. The bottom line is that matric results count for very little once you have been accepted, and are a poor indicator of success at varsity, where we have seen top matrics bomb out and marginal matrics blossom. If there was some way of measuring success at 1st year varsity per school I suspect we might all pause – that is a measure of how well kids have been prepared. I would be willing to guess that boarders perform better because they have learned how to organise themselves, while day boys go through the whole “2nd form adjustment”, except at varsity, especially if they are leaving home for out of province varsities.
Anyway, accept my apologies if my responses got out of hand, I would like to say it won’t happen again, but it probably will. Type A is sommer Type A, gnome sane.
@Grasshopper: I hopper. I am eating humble pie this morning. Very good win for Glenwood yesterday. PBHS is a very good cricket school.
Saying that I still vouch for KES this morning. Although not as self assured as yesterday, I must admit.
@star: Thanks Star! We had a good 4 wicket win over PBHS yesterday so looking good for 2014. KES will be a good test too.
@ Grassy-all the best for your match against KES today. Westville were outplayed by a good Paarl Gym team last night. Hope they bounce back today against PRG.
@ Rhino- all cool.
@Gungets- maybe we should not blog past 9.00 pm because we missed each other completely. The link with Skonk was actually not the one you might be aware of but was incongruent with the argument so apologies . My only issue is about inconsistency and if that is untrue or too personal I again apologise. Your position on comparisons being odious is clear and more than acceptable. I just find it strange then that you were one of first to respond to Djou re the top academic schools in each region to which he has replied. Maybe I am reading too much into it.
@Gungets – u need to chill dude…………!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! true story!!!!
I dont think star said anything that controversial so chill and yeah i agree with him but no need for bad banter.
Come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 chill boys!!! College is amazing school………………….just WBHS and others have caught up!
Hey GT
Hey Star
Chill
Enough said //////////////////// Just chill……… our schools are amazing!!!!! i chose WBHS even though was accepted to College and Kearsney and as a youngster i did think but i chose wbhs as i didnt wanna be a border…………….my dad, uncle etc all went kearsney so i was expected………………i chose wbhs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i love kearsney!!! as my 2nd school…………….. but i chose WBHS above Kearsney and College and thats a fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
@star: Are you on drugs?
Go back to the comments on me being the marketing director of College and get some context, then quote that context. Nine of it was comparing College to any other school. It was about changes to leadership and development in facilities. Unless you can dig that up, leave it alone. Me being positive about College with absolutely no comparison to anyone else.
The comments about me giving up towing and being an infrastructure man was about work I do regarding warehouses for frozen products, once again, nothing do with school.
3 years ago I commented that College were the best boys school in the province as a result of a Westville supporter claiming first position again. Fact. Please show me where I have ever criticized Westville other than their refusal to use an agreed investigator during the age issue. Other than that, feel free to quote rather than drop rubbish here.
As for College “under pressure”, please man. If you wish to do the whole record comparison, go right ahead. I am perfectly aware of your links to Skonk, but if you feel that buys you any credit you are mistaken. There have been College boys prominent at DHS and vice versa, the push and pull between DHS and College over his services are legend, which is why College and DHS have such a great relationship, and annually play for the Skonk Cup at rugby. Leave it at that bus, calling you irritating is about as personal as I am likely to get, and not going to put in any smilies to try and make out its a joke, as you are wont to do when getting personal.
College will carry on, having highs and lows is something we have experienced before in our 151 years, and will do again. For a school “under pressure” I think we are doing just fine, your opinion is not important or particularly significant. Your opinion of me is even less so, I have been insulted by experts, you don’t stack up.
@ Gungets- The situation with the First 15 was surely a joke. Grow up will you. I am glad you gave the previous link. It clearly shows that I was the first person to congratulate Kearsney on their 2012 results and was the first in 2013 to do the same. Because that is what you do HEY. I was not selective and change my mindset based on the outcomes at hand. I was also interested in the fact that you said that you did not market College. I am sure a blogger down the line said that you should give up the tow truck business and be the marketing director. I think Playa mentioned that you are now the infrastructure man in PMB based on your posts on all the development at hand. There is nothing wrong with that but the holier than thou attitude is nauseating . Colleges great performances under Skonk were based on their performance against opposition over period of time. It did not stand on its own. Now suddenly the basis of comparison is taboo. Why is that? Maybe because College is suddenly under pressure. Now time for your history lesson. ( or is history now suddenly not important to you). There was a headboy at DHS who took a young starter under his wing. He nicknamed the boy after the bull on the family farm in Nottingham Road. The nickname was Skonkwana. How do I know this? Go figure.( although I hope I have not irritated you beyond repair)
@star: Not tense, just tired of the endless dick measuring. It’s exhausting “defending” meaningless competitions that don’t mean a horses arse. The okes I admire most or the okes that keep it balanced, so a kid that can play 1st team rugby or cricket, nail 5 distinctions, I think that’s brilliant.
To be blunt, your approach is what irritates me. Everything is a comparison, nothing Westville does stands on it’s own, you need to make sure you compare. Great, works for you, but the little remarks about male menopause are childish. Provoke a reaction, then remark on the reaction, tsk tsk.
I am perfectly content with the state of my alma mater and school that my son has chosen. They sent 93% of their matrics out this year with varsity passes, this bodes well for my boy for his grade 11 and 12 years. I am content, it has nothing to do with the performance of Glenwood or Westville. So when you say “surely now a done deal” I opt out.
Top 3 schools in KZN were Durban Girls High (44 pupils with 6A’s or more), Westville Girls High (44) and Danville (43). Seems the girls are streaks ahead!
@Gungets Tuft: The MEC: Education of each province normally announces the top 10 academic schools in each province each year.
In Gauteng the top academic schools for 2013 were:
1. Garsfontein
2. Waterkloof
3. Menlo Park
Criteria include the following: 100% pass rate, number of learners in grade 12, number of distinctions, % of grade 12-learners qualifying for post matric studies at university, as well as the average % for the grade as a whole.
In the Free State the top school was a girls school:
1. Eunice
Sorry, did not follow the results in other provinces.
@ Grassy- I suppose it helped. A bit of fun though. I am not sure why GT is getting so tense. I thought it would lighten the mood. Maybe he is going through male meno -p
I hope I have used that correctly.
They passed but they can’t read, haibo! http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/01/09/they-passed-but-can-t-read
@star: I’ll do a similar one for Glenwood;
Kerron Van Vuuren – 1
Seth Van der Heever – 4
Matthew Harmsworth – 1
Rupert Kay – 2
Wandile Mazibuko – 1
Kyle Gerrard – 1
Jacques Dumas – 1
Akhona Nela – 1
Derwent Stopforth – 3
Dewald van Tonder – 7
Total: 22
Not bad! @STAR, do you think De La Rey’s injury free’d him up to concentrate on his studies, so might have been a blessing in disguise for him?
@star: FFS – is there no end to you. It’s not an indicator, it’s an analysis – “called for” by Tjoppa …. “Gents concentrate on the important things in life. My question is can they play Rugby. Really stop this discussion on useless info. Concentrate boys concentrate. ”
How about we all just concede … whatever it is you want to concede .. that way we don’t have to drag up imagined conversations from 3 years ago.
Here’s a suggestion – use it, or not, but I will liberally do so and expect to be called to order when I transgress as well .. but lets discuss things based on the 10 Commandments of Logic …. here.
http://www.relativelyinteresting.com/10-commandments-rational-debate-logical-fallacies-explained/
@ Gungets- ok so the new indicator is the first 15 and the disctinctions achieved.
As follows
A De La Rey 6
Ellse 2
Majola 5
Snyman 2
Vorster 4
Weir 5
Other 3
Total 27
Surely now a done deal
@Grasshopper: Interesting analysis. A quick count got our First 15 with a lock with 5 A’s, prop with 4, total of 17 distinctions in the side. Remember that quite a few are in Grade12 this coming year.
@BOG: We can agree to disagree about Jansen, I think he has been superb with his leadership. His students think the world of him. I believe UFS is a better place with him there. JMO.
Would be interested to see what GCB are doing with community work. That is where schools should lead. College do something similar. Kids from poorer schools come in on Saturday mornings for 3 hours of tuition from College staff, in key subjects. I am also not sure of the detail but can find out.
@Gungets Tuft: I said the UFS, not the rector. He is a opportunistic cameleon and can be a communist one day and right wing the next, depending the audience. And they use internet teaching (my term) to rural schools and use the best teachers available- and you know where they come from. I know that GCB have kids coming to the school during the holidays and stay in the hostels where they are then taught Maths and Science (Not sure about the detail)
@star: Good points, but with extra cash parents can get their kids extra lessons in subjects they are weaker in, that is why there is a Kip McGrath opposite Westville Boys High. Asian families will do anything to ensure their kids get good results so they can do medicine, law or CA. Glenwood’s demographic includes less wealthy familes so sometimes the boys need to just work harder without the extra lessons. In my opinion Glenwood is doing a great job to get many less advantaged boys through and achieving the best they can within the constrained budgets. What was very good to see was the sportsman doing well academically too, Madwe 4A’s, Ntshangase 3A’s, Skhosana (200m champ) with 5A’s, Derwent Stopforth 3A’s, Seth Van der Heever 4A’s, Wissing 3A’s etc. Westville was just once an academic school, no argument there but since schools have become integrated they have upped their game in sports too. They are surely the most well balanced gov school in KZN, followed closely by College and Glenwood. Both College and Glenwood have a lower income demographic coming in with the regular boys…
@Gungets Tuft: great reply GT.
@star: Last years discussion.
http://blog.schoolboyrugby.co.za/?p=2031#comment-7450
@star: Please refer to my post THIS year about it, and read it the way it is written. I am talking about the Top 10 and comparisons between candidates who have different bases to work from. Academic results are important to a school, that’s their business. Nowhere have you seen me decrying Westvilles results in ANYTHING, not academics, swimming, rugby, it’s not my style.
As for – if it was me – pointing out that Ville might not have been the top school, please drop the link to that thread in here. I think you will probably find if was a result of a post from a Westville boykie claiming superiority, if it was me that started it, I will start on the pie. And it was not last year, it was the previous one, just to jog your memory.
I wasn’t dissing your man’s achievement, you asked where the “3rd” came from, I told you. Then I tried to explain where the rationale might have come from when the Education Department invited him to the announcements. But naturally I get that 10 x A symbols might not be quality, it must be very disappointing for the lads who got 10, 9, 8 distinctions of such poor quality, they will be lining up for supplementaries …
@ Grassy- I honestly do not know. I know a lot of affluent kids that are very lazy and take a lot for granted. On the other hand a lot of less affluent kids are more hungry and have a more proactive attitude. If it was all about affluence then Hilton would be untouchable. I had a mate that moved his kid from MHS to Westville because he was a national swimmer and House could not provide the necessary support. He could not believe that the extra Afrikaans lessons were free at Westville but he had to pay for them at House. Affluence does provide some support but take nothing away from the structures that are in place and the outcomes that are achieved.
@star: Agreed Star, just answer one question for me and be honest. Do you think the more affluent the family the better the results are for the kids?
@ Gungets- Please refer back to your comments last year when you posted that College was second only to Westville Girls in terms of number of distinctions. It is interesting that you ” did give a rats” then. Consistency my friend.
Westville Boys did not have one of their better years in 2012 ( by their usual high standards) but it was definitely put out there that they had been knocked off their perch . It is a bit like when Westville swimmers have a bad swimming year and every one jumps on the bandwagon predicting with glee that the tide has turned. You are right on one point though. Once you get your tertiary qualification everything else fades into the background. However consistent academic excellence( Westville have been doing this for over 30 years) must be acknowledged and celebrated.
The Westville dux came top not because of the number of As but the quality of them. He averaged 98%. Just be cool and accept.
@Gungets Tuft: Agreed, matric results mean nothing in the real world. All they tell is if the person is capable or learning or not…..simple as…
@BOG: 100%. I have met Prof Jansen, he spoke at College last year as part of our 150th. He is not shy to kick over a few towers, as he did at College, made a lot of people feel very uncomfortable, but has been part of the change College has started on.
I smaak the guy, I just hope he resists the constant calls to go into politics, it might ruin him, at very least quieten him down which would be a terrible thing.
I particularly like the strategy of leaving the strong schools alone and concentrating on the weak, too often government are happy to level the playing fields by weakening the strong. Well done Free State, great govt/private/governing body partnerships. More like that please!
@star: he was invited to JHB to the results presentation and acknowledged as 3rd. I think it’s all a crock if you try to compare 10 subjects with 7 (the compulsory number) or 8 (with AP maths). Even your man “only” did 8 compared with 9 A’s from a number of his schoolmates.
I see some are measuring by total points scored, others by distinctions, others by just comparing the 7 compulsory. I could give a rats actually. Truth is once you have admission to your post school education matric is of no real consequence. My daughter passed 1st year BSC, nobody is asking for her matric results any more.
KES results for Roger, ain’t so hot!
http://www.kingedwardschool.co.za/content/featured.aspx?id=71
Only 227 distinctions, 205 less than Glenwood and 376 less than Westville. Westville got an average of 2.45 A’s per pupil, Glenwood 1.77 and KES only 1.07! KES with only 10 pupils with 6A’s or more vs Westville’s 37, College’s 21 and Glenwood’s 16. Not so hot on the academics front there KES…
DHS Results; http://www.durbanhighschool.co.za/content/news/News_Item.asp?content_ID=1119&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
@ Bog- you see what happens when we play nicely. How is your U15 team doing at Queens? I think they played GW yesterday and us today.
@Gungets Tuft: Good spot, I thought that might be the case, overzealous Westville marketing again ;-). The Glenwood dux Mayat got 8A’s and came in the top 10 in KZN. Names for Glenwood’s top boys
Perumal – 9A’s
Chetty – 8A’s
Devnarain – 8A’s
Govender – 7A’s
Jacob – 8A’s
Mayat – 8A’s
Mbangjwa – 7A’s
Moodley – 7A’s
Brunsdon – 6A’s
Crichton – 6A’s
Mpisi – 6A’s
D Naidoo – 6A’s
Ragunandan – 6A’s
Sacoor – 6A’s
Snyman – 6A’s
Van Tonder – 7A’s
OK, 9 out of the 16 are from Asian decent. We all know they place academics as priority. Hence, my comment about Westville, they have a very large Asian group who help push their marks up significantly. What helps Westville too is that the majority of their kids are from affluent families who pay for extra lessons, iPad’s etc. Glenwood is doing very well considering the demographics of their families are middle LSM vs Westville’s upper LSM…
@Gungets Tuft: Yes, someone polishing someones marbles. Dont underestimate the role played by the UFS and the leading schools in making a huge contribution through their outreach programs, in uplifting the rural schools.
@ Gungets- and yet still more than GW and College combined. Remember to be excellent you have to celebrate excellence.
The Westville Dux is the top student in the country ( officially recognised).You comment about other claims seems a bit disingenuous .
Your dux did very well ( coming 5th in KZN). I am not sure where the 3rd in SA comes from.
@Grasshopper: I think your 69 for 6 A’s or more for Westville might be triple counting. I think their number for 6 A’s includes the 7,8 and 9. Final number is 37 …?
@ Grassy- what is with the Reservoir Hills comment? I don’t make a comment about Chatsworth when looking at the GW results. For your information the top Westville students were spilt evenly down racial lines. There was a picture in the paper of the top DHS/GW students. Not so much so.
It was good to see a family member getting 7 As at College. Must be a 5th generation boy.
@Grasshopper: You left out the one with 10 distinctions and 3rd in SA, although there seem to be many claims for the top 10 positions. Mpumu and Limpopo also claiming the top student.
So College got 20 boys with 6A’s or more, Glenwood got 16 and Westville 69….the boys from Resevoir Hills doing great representation there!
@All Black: From College’s site;
9 DISTINCTIONS
L Dhavaraj
A Hattingh
Y Mohamed (+1 APM)
B Player
S Thenjwayo
E Van Heeswijk
8 DISTINCTIONS
J Myburgh
7 DISTINCTIONS
A Fitton
K Letuka
K Nalathoren
J Peckham
K Persotham
K Pillay
6 DISTINCTIONS
M Dedekind
J Fitchat
J Gilson
F Lane
S Maharaj
Y Shaikh
M Yeoman
I checked the matric results and Glenwood didn’t fair too badly;
No of students: 243
Distinctions: 432
Life Orientation – 122
English – 47
Business Studies – 40
Afrikaans – 35
Maths – 32
Engineering & Graphic design – 29
Accounting – 24
Zulu – 21
Physical Science – 16
Visual Arts – 12
Geography – 8
Tourism – 8
Maths Probability (ex Ad Maths) – 7
History – 6
Maths Literacy – 5
Dramatic Arts – 5
Information Technology – 3
Computer Applications Technology – 1
I like the mix of subjects, all very practical. Seems Life Orientation & Business Studies are ‘give me’ easy A’s, not sure what it is though. Good to see good results in the maths and sciences too.
Breakdown of A’s (3 or more)
9A’s – 1
8A’s – 4
7A’s – 4
6A’s – 7
5A’s – 13
4A’s – 15
3A’s – 22
Total: 66 (27% of the 243 class got 3 A’s or more)
Avg A’s per student: 1.77
If we look at how many top schoolboy players will have a career in sport then academics becomes very important – quote from school website shows how seriously Westville take academics .
Some notable statistics for the group of 246 boys were:
•100% pass rate (2012: 99%)
•222 boys achieved Bachelor passes i.e. 90% of the group (2012: 86%)
•8 boys achieved 8 or more distinctions (2012: 6)
•24 boys achieved 7 or more distinctions (2012: 13)
•37 boys achieved 6 distinctions or more (2012: 23)
•54 boys achieved A aggregates (2012: 35)
•127 boys achieved B aggregates of better (2012: 101)
• 193 boys achieved C aggregates of better (2012: 169)
•603 subject distinctions were achieved in total (2012: 432)
•92% of the group undertake Maths rather than Maths Literacy while 86% undertake Physical Science (2012: 83% & 77%).
They also had the top student in SA but unfortunately he is not a rugby player !!!
Contrary to the ‘Blog Bugle’ M.College had excellent academic results. Well done to all boys who wrote from all schools.
@BOG: Ja, saw that, it’s brilliant. Shows what can be done when you have people in positions of influence who are passionate about education and not politicians.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/01/10/the-big-read-meet-the-man-behind-the-free-state-s-matric-triumph
@Grasshopper: Hi Mr Grasshopper. I am definitely trying to stir things up. Must say I love the banter between yourself and Mr Roger. Therefore I have waited in anticipation for a matchup between KES and Glenwood. I do have a lot of respect for Glenwood but KES has been one of the best cricketing schools over a long period of time. “Class can’t be bought”!!
As a schoolboyrugby blog follower there is a couple of games I am looking forward to this season. One of it being the game between Glenwood and Westville, for obvious reasons.
@BOG: Agreed, a few of Glenwood’s Rhodes Scholars (Oxford) only got lower 90’s with 6 A’s back in the day. That is when an A really did mean something. I feel sorry for kids these days they can only answer what is put in front of them. Not their fault that standards have declined!
@Gungets Tuft: I can help you with the name of the province which got the highest pass rate, if you want it? Not sure if they can write their names or count to ten, but they got the highest “pass” rate- the FS !
@Woltrui: stirring things up already! Our key player Andile Phelekhuwayo is away training with the SA under19’s so we are weakened already. Good luck to both sides but Glenwood certainly is more than worthy of being mentioned with KES, have some respect for a 104 year old SA school that has produced 180 plus international sportsman, Rhodes scholars and businessman like Warren Clewlow (chairman of Barlowworld) & Ivan Clark (Chairman of Grindod)….
@Gungets Tuft: Westville must be top boys school, something crazy like 600 distinctions and 54 A aggregates! Most other similar schools got 200 or so distinctions. I see College and KES had a few failures. Not sure about Glenwood no public release yet..
@Djou: Where did you see the top academic schools in each region. I can’t find them, didn’t try very hard.
The best way to deal with a mosquito, is to spray it with Doom@Playa: That is why I said that A-Levels, subject for subject, the standard is (much)higher, but their advantage is that as far as I know, they only do two subjects, as opposed to six.
@Tjoppa:
Apologies Tjopstix!
@BOG: Yep indeed, it would have to be. I know Zim used to have it, not sure if they still do. Those Zimbos used to kick our @sses in varsity, cause they had done 2/3 of the stuff we did in first year.Okes had 2nd year textbooks in 1st year.It was ridiculous.
You are right. A lot of SA kids who want to study overseas have to have done a year at a top SA university before being accepted there.It’s all perception really, but a fair enough perception though.
@Playa: @Djou: @BOG: As usual a lot of crap this early in the year. Gents concentrate on the important things in life. My question is can they play Rugby. Really stop this discussion on useless info. Concentrate boys concentrate.
@beet: Good day sir. Hope you enjoyed the festive season.
I like your article. However, in order to determine the versatility of the schools, we should also have a look at their academics. It would be nice to see the that the performance on the sports field is accompanied by performance in the classroom.
The matric results have just been published, as well as the top academic schools in each region. So it would be easy to do the comparisons on the top 20 rugby and academic schools.
@Woltrui: Both teams should struggle on a decent grass pitch. No mats there and they play the game with a cricket ball and not a tennis ball.@Playa: A and O levels would have been the ideal, if it was underwritten and supported by their bodies in the UK. More and more countries which accept immigrants from SA, are becoming suspicious of certain professional qualifications in SA and are insisting on exams before unrestricted practice is permitted there.
See we’ve got a proper Groper Cup cricket fixture Saturday on neutral soil. KES against Glenwood at Grey Bloem (Hopefully the Gautengers kick the Charkies back into the ocean where they belong). KES is always a class act on the cricket field. Don’t now if Glenwood should even be mentioned in the same sentence as KES.
@Grasshopper: I don’t have the facts, but I hear that Maths Lit had the highest failure rate of all subjects
Now that’s a worry!
Just on your point GH, if today’s papers are a mix between what used to be SG and HG, is a pass mark of 30% really unreasonable considering a SG pass used to be 33.3%?
Granted, since the scrapping of the HG/SG system, (smart) kids have been getting higher marks than the average smart kid of old, and there will be more distinctions and A’s and B’s than before. Maybe what we should be arguing for is not an increase in the pass mark, but rather a revert back to the distinction between HG and SG…heck maybe even adopt the the A-level/O-level system.
just my 2 cents
I am certainly not an educational expert, but my common sense tells me that Grasshopper is correct. The results of the NBT also tells a story. In my days- my kids say the olden days- a person who passed with a first class matric pass (60%), invariably did OK at varsity. Six distinctions was an absolute exception, but now you find it common to see 8, even 11 distinctions. Only a few years ago, that would have been impossible. It is said, if things keep on improving at the current rate, we should soon have a pass rate of more than 100%. The standard of individual subjects in SA have always been lower than the A-levels in the UK, but now, the gap is massive. In fact, I dont think that it is at O-level standard.
Hi guys, as I have mentioned before most of my family are in education, one is IT Director at an exclusive girls school in JHB, the other a junior teacher at a good gov primary school, the other Head of Maths at a gov school in the UK and lastly my mom is a Headmistress at a private co-ed school in KZN. All of them agree standards have dropped significantly in the past 20 years. Take maths there is no longer standard grade but the paper is now half standard grade level and half higher grade level, so top students are starting from 50%. In my day in the 90’s the whole paper was higher grade. Also Maths Lit is very practical but very easy. Budgeting etc….6A’s these days are like 6B’s or even 6upper C’s from 20 years ago. Also, ojiving the results up occurs more now to ensure the better pass rate…
@Gungets Tuft: Interesting point. Nothing much had changed in 2000 (my matric year)…40% was the pass on HG and 33.3% was the pass on SG…
…makes a man think, doesn’t it…
@BOG: I wouldn’t mind seeing the stats for the matrics of 1985. People easily forget that above 33.3% was a pass for all subjects except home language back then. Sure you had to get a E1 average (or something), which was above 50% average, to get a varsity exemption, but how much higher were the varsity entrance standards really?
I doubt a 50% average is going to get you into any of the top 8 varsities now, so I am a little concerned about double standards being applied to the KIDS now. (not the education department, because we EXPECT better – something we did not really expect back in the dark days).
I hope to not get drawn into a big debate about it because I doubt the stats are available, but I remember a significant number of my class mates not getting varsity exemptions, so below 50% aggregate (I have those numbers from my year book)
Thankfully, the distorted 2013 matric “results”, were not included in this analysis. A deeper look into these results, reveal that 60% of accountancy candidates got less than 40%. Ditto for Maths and 58% got less than 40% for Physical Science. In 2013, before commencing their studies,60000 prospective students sat for the NBT (National Benchmark Tests). More than half of the “achievers” got less than 34% for Maths. We are fooling ourselves and those young people and I truly hope that higher standards apply when dealing with young sportsmen/women. But I guess that is wishful thinking. But as they say, in the land of the blind—
@Gungets Tuft: I hear you loud and clear
@Grasshopper: Thanks for good wishes ! Best wishes for you as well.
@Tandem: Unfortunately Glenwood are not playing Boishaai this year, would have been great to see Sean’s new team take on his old one….good luck to Boishaai, especially with interschools….it time you guys beat Gim!
@GrasshopperJust kidding and trying to see what you will say . Looking forward to the games this year . Still much too long before the fun starts .
@Tandem: So WP and Boishaai bought him?
@Grasshopper: Hi Grasshopper sorry I can see you don’t know the news yet . Andile is already in the Western Cape , he is changing schools . 8)
@Playa: IT stuff is a hobby, towing is my life
Shouldn’t the Du Preez twins count as one person
Happy new year everyone, hope all have a better year than last, and I see GT has gone from tow truck driver to IT and infrastructure guru in a couple of months
Please let me know who your Sangoma is.
@beet: Andile Phelekhuwayo made SA under17 hockey, SA Schools & SA under 19 cricket in grade 11. Watch him next year, will be Glenwood’s sportsman of the year…
I noticed that one student from Rondebosch – Zubayr Hamza had made SA Schools for both cricket and hockey, the only dual sportsman on the list. Quite an achievement.
@Ploegskaar: No, neither of those. Had dealings with the Ayoba guys a while ago but on comms, not the sort of IT and power stuff I do (I say “do” but I really just consult on specs and project manage them).
@Gungets Tuft: Would those warehouses have included Ayoba in Durban and the new Merlog facility in Cato Ridge?
@BOG: You are talking my game. I do large scale IT and infrastructure installations. The first line item on my Capex’s is always standbye power. UPS, generator, environmental monitoring. I have done installations where the power bill is R3 million a month, warehouses for frozen produce. We put in 300Kva generators to cope. The cost is massive.
Wonder how long it will be, with peak charges, till companies run generators at peak times to keep their usage below cost escalation threshholds. Not long I think, I already plan for that by putting in multiple smaller gennies so they can be started up one at a time to reduce load.
The moment municipalities allow power to be fed back into the grid (and my meter to run backwards) I will hit solar big time.
@Gungets Tuft: No, we all joke about electricity supply in SA, more specifically, its unreliability. But Im told that its no joking matter. The distribution network(municipalities) in SA is in a very bad state. We have seen collapses in Kimberley (2 weeks) and Kroonstad (+- 7 days) and you mentioned PM Burra. There are more which do not even reach the news. Due to a total lack of maintenance over the last 20 yrs, the condition is such that they can start falling like skittles. So yes, I was joking about the power station, but its a joke which very soon, could become reality. What should have been spent on maintenance, was spent on bonuses and I freeze when I think of the inevitable financial consequences- as was the case of building power stations- on power supply.
@BOG: The IT infrastructure (in the event you are being serious) is probably more energy efficient than the last kit (google power-over-Ethernet). Te indoor centre was always there, just converted for cricket. The Alan Paton Hall was also there, just being refitted with an all purpose floor for basketball. The other stuff, “tartan” track, football stadium, 2 extra soccer fields all curtesy of the PMB municipality, we just have use of it. However, we do have a power station, it’s the Red, Black and White gees, watch it happen.
@Gungets Tuft: “… denying it now after I had ad-homimen’ed responders….” Ai ai Mr Tufts. Six January and we are already swearing the living daylights out of the bloggers! Let us keep it above board. Kids are also reading the blogs! 8)
What the puck are they feeding those Western Cape kids. Some unbelievable stats there. Pity the mountain goats are so useless at senior level.
@star: As I pointed out, sportwise, 2013 was not particularly good for GCB, which explains my “veiled” suggestion that an analysis should be done over a period of several years to get a truer picture of achievement. And why Beet used orange to reflect KZN, only he would know. Goodness, FS holds the patent for orange.@Gungets Tuft: I recall you telling me about all your new facilities and I remember me asking about a power station to run those facilities. Have you built it?
@BOG: All true – hard to retain some sort of balance.
C ollege did try to “order” a good rugby year but were undone by a lot of kids who had accepted at College withdrawing at the last second. It’s a common thing now but that was the one of the first years of the real dog-fight for talent in KZN. College was not prepared for the big-money fight. As a government school, with all the negative press government schools get nowdays, I guess that is the way it will always be. Schools need to be on top of their games – especially the Govt schools, if they are to remain attractive to parents. How to ensure prospective parents see that picture is key.
2013 was good for College – said it to Beet earlier – the school has a new vitality from 2013, huge innovation under way, in all spheres. Pertinent to this blog are the facilities – have already mentioned those in a blog posting of last year – but these will go a long way to modernising the way the school operates. I mentioned sports only but there is agreat deal more happening, all of which kick College off well for the next 150 years.
@ Bog- Westville encountered GC in 3 sports in 2013 ( waterpolo, swimming and soccer) and came away victorious in all 3. That head to head is looking a bit tight for the Bloem machine.
But never fear we have to face their wrath at Kearsney this year so the balance will be restored 
Westville seem to hit certain schools at their peaks Paul Roos( 2012), Paarl Gym,Outeniqua( 2013) and a fired up GC in 2014. So much for the management of the schedule to optimise results. I am also led to believe that Brad Rowe ( SA Waterpolo director of coaching and WOB 1981( Excellent vintage 
) is coming to Westville and so hopefully that will keep some momentum in our Aquatics. Lastly Kearsney must be commended on their excellent academic achievements for the last 2 years.It is not easy to come top in the IEB in the country 2 years in a row. Not bad for an all boys school.
@Gungets Tuft: True. I suppose that we all have egos. Some control them just a little better than others. No harder lesson than true humility and no more irritating thing than a false one. Strangely, in purely rugby terms, when GCB, celebrated their 150th in 2005, they did not have a good year at all- and they had CW at the school as part of the celebrations. But thats how it goes-you cannot order the “good” years for those special occasions.
@BOG: Not as subtle as I thought then. GCB and College had similar years in 2013 – not one for the record books, but a good one internally. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) internal successes don’t get headlines. The College 150th celebrations went very well, there is a new vitality about the school, big changes underway that will relaunch.
Despite myself, I read these sorts of articles, because I feel that national represenation is not what College (or any good school – and the list above is a study of good schools) is about, but it is nice to have the name there – and whether we admit it or not we all get a little vicarious kick out of it. It’s human nature after all, and … well .. denying it now after I have ad-homimen’ed responders into a corner (you are either vicarious or non-human .. ??)
Looking forward to a great year – can almost not believe my lightie is already into his Grade 11 year …. makes me feel old …
@Gungets Tuft: Are you suggesting something with the subtle use of the word, “too”? No, seriously, some schools have a once off good year, which does not necessarily reflect consistent representation and performance. Im not polishing marbles by saying so or “enhancing” egos. (But in case you wondered, no, GCB did not have a particularly good 2013)
Would have helped Glenwood too with cricket and hockey reps. Waterpolo I think 2. Certainly cricket…
@BOG: Ja, would have helped College look better too, adding some cricket and rugby names.
An analysis over a 5-year period, would not only be interesting, but would give us a more accurate reflection of representation.