From Greenblooded:
Once again – the KERF will feature 2 international referees:
Craig Joubert will referee the Selbourne / Affies and Grey College / Monnas games
while Marius Jonker will referee the Framesby / Monnas and Grey College / EG Jansen games.
Both the above mentioned ref’s were fantastic yesterday and a big thank you to them for giving of their time. They added a real festival atmosphere and I know my boy loved it
@Pedantic: The Kearsney boys were gutted – it would have been an epic comeback and they were looking bullet-proof in the last minutes near the line.
@GreenBlooded: Makes perfect sense, thanks. I was under the impression he had taken it from the wrong spot and the defenders weren’t back 5.
@Pedantic: Time had expired some time beforehand but a string of penalties resulted in the game running over time. The penalty to Kearsney you refer to was taken quickly but the Kearsney player ran into the referee which prevented a defender from making the tackle. The call then would have been a scrum to Kearsney (Law 6.A.9.a: If the ball or the ball carrier touches the referee and neither team gains an advantage, play
continues. If either team gains an advantage in the field of play, the referee orders a scrum
and the team that last played the ball has the throw-in.) but since time had long since expired time was called. It was 100% correct accordign to law.
@GreenBlooded: Could you maybe explain why the Kearsney – HTS Middelburg game was blown without Kearsney taking the penalty in the red zone at the end?
I’m led to believe it was the correct call – but I have no idea why?
@beet: It’s really the situation at hand. The ‘other’ refs at KERF are being assessed by the wise men sitting above the tunnel so they need to be seen to ‘not miss anything’. The pro’s are not going to get demoted based on a schoolboy game – so they just let the boys have a great time. Blowing the ‘clear and obvious’ and ‘blowing what matters’ and allowing lot’s of advantage. Measure the ‘ball in play’ time of the matches reffed by the pro’s – it will be much higher than the other games. Refereeing rugby is an art – not a science. It’s about understanding the game and managing it accordingly.
@BoishaaiPa: Watse skelm comment glip jy hier in! Met “we” het ek darem bedoel ons die ondersteuners, nie ek en die ref nie! Van die refs verdien dalk ten beste ‘n boot vol kaal sopbene soos wat hulle blaas, en as julle my mooi vra sal ek ‘n vrag vuil pens vir QI reel as hy weer ‘n Paarl Interskole blaas!
I just read most of these comments now. Very entertaining stuff. I must say that for me personally I have always really enjoyed the SBR games reffed by the senior pros. I feel they are able to lift the standard of play which brings out the best in the boys.
Woltrui your comments are too funny. I have a bad feeling that coach Meyer is also not too good with Lions and the whole first names basis thingy.
@Woltrui: No harm, no foul, as I said, not like you.
i think the fault is less with the refs and more with the laws. Too complex, too open to interpretation, by both refs and spectators. Until they find a way to simplify them we will carry on discussing stuff like this. If soccer, with its limited number of rules can still generate a Harry Web list of complaints, then rugby as it is, is doomed unless they make the laws easier to apply.
I taught myself a lesson last week by checking my perceptions, and then had humble pie for supper. Hate that, just have to take results on the chin in future.
@Gungets Tuft: You are right Mr Tufts. The sarcasm was not called for. Please accept my apology
@Woltrui: I’d have no problem with it at all. As someone else has already pointed out: the referee has more to lose by blowing poorly than he has to gain in terms of popularity with the winning team. No brainer,
Interesting discussion here. Another classic example of the referee’s influence on a game was there for all to see at Kearsney today. Marius Jonker facilitated a frenetic clash between Grey College and EG Jansen by simply being calm, collected, blowing the clear and obvious and sticking to that old saying “blow the game, not the law”. That’s was happens when the big names ref schoolboys – they just let the boys play and blow the clear and obvious. The result is a spectacle that the players and spectators are thrilled with, is fair and consistent and the only downside is 30 odd very sore bodies that leave the field. Same applies to The College Reunion day clash which CJ handled. And what can be wrong with that?
@Gungets Tuft: Eeisch. “Not going to put that in danger”.
@Woltrui: I already answered the question, I am fine with it. If he is on the international panel he has too much to lose by blowing an insignificant match badly. These okes at all aiming for a World Cup final, they are not goin tonoutrhat in danger.
I am much more worried about the oke in the local society, in a position of percieved influence, doing a terrible job with no recourse. Give me International refs every time, no questions asked.
Sarcasm, lowest form of wit, it’s not like you.
@Woltrui: Ons woord is ons eer. Ons glo in selfbeheersing, selfdissipline, nederigheid en lojaliteit….
If your affie ref lives up to his erekode – let him blow the game – he’s welcome
@Gungets Tuft: Okie dokie Mr Tufts. Let me get my “Graig Joubert’s stats file” out quikly
Mmmmmm…….. Don’t seem to find it. Cmonn Mr Tufts. Don’t you think neutrals should referee SR and CC matches? I ask again. Would you be happy if a Affie old boy is a referee between the Bulls and the Charkies? In a game with so many grey areas?
@Ploegskaar: It would be interesting to do the same for the College vs Glenwood game last year. I actually need to get a recording of the game – I know someone who has it, and will make it available to you. Obviously don’t know the exact count, but the pace of the whole game was hectic, I was tired just watching it. The the same 2 teams played later at Dixons, and it was quite pedestrian by comparison … go figure.
@Gungets Tuft: True story, in a game between Boland and SACS in 2012, JK demonstrated, in my opinion, the best application of the advantage law by any ref, at any level, that I have seen before or since. The first scrum only took place 5min before halftime and I doubt there were eventually more than 5 during the entire game.
@Ploegskaar: OK – got it
We can agree to disagree on your assessment of CJ – as in everything else it is opinion.
Happy to say that we can also agree to agree on JK – superstar!
@Woltrui: I actually don’t share your doubts. For many years I thought Mark Lawrence blew the Sharks much more harshly than the opposition, and he is a Ballito boy. I believe refs are far, far more worried about their standing as refs than they are about a little hometown loyalty. This is their job, they do it badly and they go back to whatever it is they did before reffing. Good old Capitalistic self interest. Refs do get klapped for doing a bad job, ask Bryce Lawrance and Romain Poite (sp?) …
Why not pull some stats to prove your theory. It’s your theory, so I am not going to try and prove you wrong, it’s your job to prove your theory. Pull the stats and show me that the Sharks win most of the matches that CJ refs – then we at least have a basis for disuscussion. Till then it is just a perception, which I can choose not to share.
Remember the 10 Commandments of logic. The ones that apply are :
Never use small numbers to represent the whole
Do not lay the burden of proof onto the person disputing the claim
Do not attack a persons character, but the argument (for instance, “you defend CJ because he is a College boy, so your argument is invalid”)
@Redblack White: In hindsight, the simple use of paragraphs to separate my initial statements would have helped, the 2 comments were not related, to be clear, but I stand by both.
@Ploegskaar: I think the nerve was not that he is an OC or that he is from KZN – it was more the reference to WC teams being given a raw deal at two festivals involving KZN teams – not sure if CJ was even invloved in those matches you referred to – the generalisation was the issue.
Other than that we are entitled to our opinions about refs, but one thing we can agree on, I am all in favour of refs who have a feel for the flow of the game.
@Ploegskaar: It wasn’t you that called him a cheat, so most of my post is general. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, and I actually rate your opinions quite highly most of the time. I have seen CJ ref school games, which is what we are talking about, and they almost always turn into open, running classics. The same two teams under a lesser ref, not so. The ref has a major effect and CJ delivers. We will have a chance to see it at KERF. I think Kaplan will be the same. The boys respond to the calm experience, trust the ref to do his job, and they do theirs.
@Gungets Tuft: Those that know me in rugby circles would confirm that I have a sound knowledge of the laws of the game and the game itself. Senior rugby apart, I watch an average of 70+ SBR games a year, which will include 3-4 festivals/rugby days but exclude trials. Although I support a couple of schools, I have no vested interest at these schools and at least 50% of the games that I watch annually would not even involve these 2 schools in any event. I would qualify myself as knowledgable and neutral, and fortunately my rugby friends do so as well. By my and their standards I therefore have an informed opinion, but I concede that standards may differ, for whatever reasons. The fact that CJ is a College OB and from KZN seems to be the nerve here, but it should have as little to do with this discussion as would Pretoria Boys High in a discussion about the Oscar trial.
@Gungets Tuft: @Redblack White: I am not doubting Mr Graig Joubert’s integrity. I am sure he is a good upstanding young man who’s mother love him and who’s father is very proud of him. I am sure he sleeps with his hands above the duvet. But. In all fairness. Would you be happy if the Charkies play the Bulls in a crucial game and an ex Affies schoolboy who are a personal friend of many of the Blue Bulls players are appointed to officiate the match?? Cmonn guys. We are in a professional era. It can’t be fair to the ref in such an instance. I see Sanzar is worried about spectator numbers. In the mean time they are to stingy to put neutral referee’s in place. I say again. If the Bulls play against X team and the ref is from X team’s province, I would not spend a hard earned R200-00 to go watch the match(game whatever). Would rather sit at home and do some gardening.
@Ploegskaar: Depends on your knowledge of the laws. Most people, myself included, don’t know the laws as well as we should. Don’t know about you. Then, even if we do know the laws from the book, we have never tried to actually blow the laws while the game in motion. It’s a whole new ball game when you do. So much going on, then you miss something on the other side of the scrum and the home crowd wants to hang you up by your … er .. whistle cord.
I reckon you are allowed an opinion, even if you haven’t reffed, but probably need to stop short of calling the ref a cheat (mea culpa – I promise to stop forthwith) unless you have actually blown a game at a decent level, say school open level, 4ths and up.
@Grasshopper: So if you don’t ref, you do not have a qualified opinion? Seriously, that’s your logic, that if you ref you obviously know what you are doing? Come on man, you are better than just basing your argument on emotion or bias. Or maybe not?
@Redblack White: Maybe Mr Joubert is a better SBR ref then, but I generally don’t enjoy the CC, SR and test matches that he officiates. I also have a different opinion on his ’11 WC Final performance, uninformed as that might be.
@Ploegskaar: By being a qualified ref, not a couch ref…
@Grasshopper: By what measure does someone have an informed opinion, Mr Hopper?
@Grasshopper: Certainly not.
@Redblack White: Ask Greenblooded he is a society ref and was there on the day, he can give an informed opinion…
@Ploegskaar: I accept that Sir, and my comments are also merely my opinion. As I said, I am by no means an expert – but I have watched Craig Joubert on all stages and I rate him. If for no other reason his performance on reunion day at College last year which speaks to his fairness.
@Ploegskaar: Just out of interest, so all the KZN wins over Cape opposition the reffing was bad?
@Redblack White: I have subsequently explained that international is not by default world class and world class refs don’t always ref on the international stage. That, as well as everything I said on the refs I rate and why I do so, is merely my opinion. I do not profess to be an expert on anything meneer, just base my opinions on watching a lot of rugby and especially SBR. I think I know when I see a good game and when I don’t.
@Redblack White: Well, wins on Goldstones are like finding needles in a haystack, so if the Glenwood boys sniffed a win they would not have stopped until the end. Probably only a handful of wins at College for Glenwood, so we need to savour them whilst we can. I was at Glenwood in the 90’s when we lost by 50 plus sometimes….very bleak days for me…enjoying it now that we more competitive :-)
@Grasshopper: Wouldnt say they were lucky – just never stopped playing despite the huge hype around the place. When Goodson scored a few minutes from time to pull College ahead, everyone thought that was it – but the GW okes never stopped playing – the rest is history
@Woltrui: Most Probably he sent his son to a decent school where he could develop individual and logical thinking and that lead to the obvious..No logical thinking person can support the Bulls, so he chose another team!..
@Gungets Tuft: Yep, was told Craig applied the laws no matter the response was from the Old Boys, tough to do but that is what makes a good ref, neutrality and impartiality no matter what…Glenwood were lucky! We needed something on our side that day against a very psyched and passionate side on their hallowed turf on their 150th Reunion..
@Gungets Tuft: ‘Twas my interpretation perzackly. Look at the reunion day game and then lets talk about fairness
@Woltrui: I must confess Mr Woltrui – my father asks me that same thing all the time – with that far away look on his face and a tear in the corner of his eye. He did indeed teach me very well, but I darren lissen.
He is a very diplomatic man and does not talk the Sharks down – he has this way of getting the job done by saying : Ï was very disappointed with your team when……”
Maar Mnr Woltrui – jy is n man wat wol ken so dan moet jy mos weet elke familie het mos n swart skapie
@Woltrui: “The Super whatever game you referred to was won by the better team on the day. The Bulls won the territory, the possession stats, the game and the glory dear sir. ”
The implication then being that the ref should take possession, territory etc into account when reffing .. and perhaps subconciously make sure that the effort is rewarded with victory. I believe rugby is one of those games where the best does not always win, that the bounce of the oval ball means that shocks and surprises do happen. The job of the ref is to blow the law, each and every time. In the S15 final, that did not happen, that affected the final result.
So – apply that to the Sharks vs Lions game as well. If it is good enough for the Bulls vs Sharks, then it is good enough for the Sharks vs Lions.
Remember the privileged position that you sit in, at home, with 15 cameras showing you every angle, slowing it down, replaying it, giving every armchair ref a shot at calling it differently to the ref on the field. What the armchair guy does not do, generally, is apply the same interpretation throughout the game, because subconciously they support one or the other. So a push by a Bulletjie on a Leeutjie is seen as assault GBH but the push back is seen as handbags, not needing any action. The key is to challenge your perceptions by adding analysis. Rugby laws are too complex to be black and white in interpretation. As long as a ref is consistent, that’s all you can ask for.
I had to eat my words this weekend at College vs PBHS. A certain ref is not my favourite. I was expecting the worst, so armed myself (as suggested by the ever neutral Mr Beet) with a notebook, and noted each penalty awarded – the time, the position on the field, and the beneficiary. By 1/2 time College were behind on penalty count by 2-6. I send Mr Beet a message saying SIEDAAR!!!! .. then by the end of the game the penatly count was 6-7 .. and I sent “koff .. sorry” to ou Mr Beet. The ref has a 1/2 decent game (come on, I karrent go from a plonker rating to goodonya in the space of 10 minutes – I am only human) and I need to be more objective when I watch. Or .. OR .. I could grab a whistle and go out there and do better.
As for calling into question CJ’s neutrality … eeisch. Some College Old Boys questioned that before the Glenwood match last year, he explained how he deals with it, then sent off our #15 (College Reunion match, 150th celebration, on Goldstones, in front of probably 6000 Old Boys and another 4000 spectators). Neutrality, fairness, no question. Ask anyone who saw that match … a few people here can reply.
@Redblack White: No need for me to tell you your father is an exemplary, top class human being. Salt of the earth type of person. Obviously a wise man with a lot of ruppie knowledge. Where did he go wrong with his laaitie supporting the frickin Charkies?
@Woltrui: No need Sir – the record book wll reflect the result – I was merely pointing out that sometimes bad calls do swing games – but for everyone – Glo my , my dierbare Pa stem 100% saam met jou!!!
So if you heard the players being called at their names, you might also have heard him telling Charl and Bizzie to stop whining – which I fully agree with – I think Bismarck has way too much to say and should just shut up and play – but I will stick by my opinion – does not take away from his neutrality when it comes to calling the game.
Early days still, but I thionk the Sharks will have to up their game, or else they will battle just as much as your cammo bulls when they hit the road – that is unless they can find a lekka ref to take with them in their pockets
@Redblack White: The Super whatever game you referred to was won by the better team on the day. The Bulls won the territory, the possession stats, the game and the glory dear sir. Since I take it you are a Charkies supporter and were emotionaly involved in the game, as I was as mighty Bulls supporter, I will take your remark with a pinch of salt
.
The second point I would like to make. Should Mr Joubert be sooooo familiar with his Charkies colluegues while blowing a game. It is Kanko, Charl and Bizzie the hole flippin game. Irritating the shibbits out of the neutral supporters who want to see a neutral ref. Familiarity leads to contemp. My Gawd we even had a Charkes player telling a referee “you want to teach ME”.
@Ploegskaar: “not necessarily world class”- followed up by a vague insinuation that somehow WC teams were outdone in the 2nd half at two different festivals and against KZN teams.
But I assume you are a specialist at refereeing and I cannot comment on the merits since I am not – I will abide by your more comprehensive follow up remarks regarding your rating of referees
@Redblack White: Please explain “poor remarks” clearly. I made the effort to state an opinion clearly and substantiate it with refs that I do rate with an explanation as to why I do so. You have made a very vague statement at best.
@GreenBlooded: Since JK’s retirement, yes. It is of course just my opinion, we all have different preferences with what we expect from a good referee and on the international panel I seldom enjoy games that are handled by Barnes, Poit, Garces, Walsh or Pollock. Locally the same goes for Berry, Pyper and vd Merwe. In my view international is not necessarily world class, and world class not necessarily international, semantics I know, but just my opinion.
@Ploegskaar: Aha..So jy is een van daai manne wat met die refs konkel na die tyd!…So paar kilo’s vleis in die boot en volgende game vir Boland loop gladmooi!..
@Woltrui: Don’t beat yourself up about who you support – my own father – flesh and blood – suffers from the same affliction – supporting your Mighty and beloved
By that account you should know how it feels when those game changing calls go your way – cast your mind back to the super whatever final between the Sharks and Bulls a few years back – knock on at the ruck leading to the game winning try – whilst the camera picked it up, the ref clearly was looking at a number of other things simultaneously – so did not – this happens everywhere – not only in games involving a Sharks team or a referee who hails from the province ( but bears no affiliation with the Sharks remember)
I was on Goldstones last year on reunion day when MC took on GW – Craig Joubert was the referee – an old boy of College – ask anyone who watched that game if there was any bias – in fact he did not hesitate to red card a College player just before half time – on a day like that (where emotions run high and old boys abound) it would have been an easy call to just caution the boy and no-one, not even the most ardent GW supporter would have blinked – instead he made the call – I don’t for one minute believe that he is a biased referee. And neither does the IRB – had a brilliant WC final and I dont hear much said about that.
@Redblack White: No. I am a supporter of the Migthy and, if I might add, beloved, Blue Bulls. The game I am referring to was Saturday between the Charkies and the Lions. I feel in equal amounts for the Lions and the Charkies-pokkol. I thus saw myself as a neutral and in a position to make a non emotional opinion in this regard, dear sir.
@Woltrui: By contentious do you mean the call went against your team – in that case all refereeing calls are contentious – Poor remarks by you and Ploegskaar – but again – how dare we bloody KZNérs come and win a rugby game – how dare we!!!
@Ploegskaar: @BuiteBreek: The Vaalies are definitely in agreement with our long removed cousins from Cape Town, on this issue.
And while we are discussing refs. Since when are a Sharks referee allowed to blow a Sharks game. Refering to the Super whatever game the past weekend Sharks vs the Lions. With the match delicately balanced at 6 all the- Sharks- referee had to step in to make 2 contentious, match changing calls, to take the game away from the Lions.
I will personally not spend any money to go watch a game between the Sharks and whoever if a Sharkies referee is blowing the game.
@BOG: Mag hy vir sy seun blaas?
@Ploegskaar: Only one ‘world class’ ref on the international panel?
Be grateful, it could have been QI
@GreenBlooded: On the international panel Nigel Owens, on our national panel Marius vd Westhuizen, Rasta Rasivhenge and Jason Japhta, in the WC and specifically WRT SBR games, Jacques Pienaar, Daniel Fortuin, Matt Kemp, Joey Salmans and the legend JK. What makes them world-class: They are not intimidated by the occasion of the big games, have a feel for the flow of the game, have no obvious agendas or bias and are always consistent and clear on their calls, they inspire confidence. Most importantly, after their games, we talk about the game, not their calls.
Some might even say world ass…
@GreenBlooded: both these ref’s are world class!
@Ploegskaar: Which referees do you regard as world class?
@GreenBlooded: By international I presume you meant just that, and not necessarily world-class? At least no WC teams will fall victim to dramatic 2nd half collapses as was the case at KERF and WK against KZN opposition last year.
@GreenBlooded: Thanks Greenblooded!
Once again – the KERF will feature 2 international referees: Craig Joubert will referee the Selbourne / Affies and Grey College / Monnas games while Marius Jonker will referee the Framesby / Monnas and Grey College / EG Jansen games.