Here are some of the things that came up in the last few weeks which might make for interesting discussion. There are no guarantees that names might come into it and cause certain individuals to respond in set ways but for now there is opportunity to look past the personal attachments and discuss just the principles.
POACHING
BACKGROUND: A very creative approach occurred at a junior age-group level which may yet or may have already resulted in one head contacting another to discuss the matter further. There was meant to be an understanding between the two schools on this issue.
Everyone seems to have a slightly different definition of what constitutes “poaching” however what we do know is that when one KZN Tier-1 school initiates an attempt to acquire a sportsman from another Tier-1 school, all seems to be on the same page. There are also no regulations or enforceable agreements in place to control this style of recruitment, so the offenders are basically able to escape punishment and as is seen here, try their luck again.
Questions: Is it high time that the schools get together and put something in writing? And if yes, then where would the rights of the parents to decide what’s best for their son fit into this?
RED CARDS
BACKGROUND: Over the last few weeks I’ve witnessed 3 red cards being dished out to players from 3 different schools.
2 were for tip tackles but the circumstances were very different. In one instance the player was making a tackle, in the other the player was at best attempting to clear an opponent out at a maul when the transgressor’s team had control of the ball and were going forward. To be honest some tip-tackles meet the definition but do not look very dangerous. I have also seen instances during which dangerous tip-tackler escape with just a yellow card being issued. The third red card incident occurred when one was instantaneously produced by a referee and shown to a player who had intentionally kicked (not hard) an opponent lying on the ground, this after the whistle had blown and right in front of the referee as well. Interestingly a week later in a different game involving 2 different teams, a similar incident occurred when out of frustration a player kicked out at an opponent who was lying in a ruck and illegally preventing a ball from coming out. However the latter only received a yellow.
With the exception of the tip-tackle at the maul, which I’ll only know the answer to later this week, all the other offenders above played the very next match for their respective 1st teams.
Question: Should there be a mandatory suspension for red-carded players? Should schools have the power to investigate and overrule these based on circumstances if they came into effect?
OVER-AGED PLAYERS
BACKGROUND: a foreign born player in a junior age-group team is causing a bit of concern amongst some parents from opposing teams. Presuambly his school has placed him in that age-group based on the evidence available to them. The general feeling is that looking at his physique he is not playing in the right age-group. His strength has played a role in the outcomes of at least two matches according to the parents at those games.
Similar concerns about players who come from a different cross-borders country, Zimbabwe have cropped up in the past. It’s proven tricky enough to determine the right ages of players from South Africa and the task seems to require even greater expertise plus time and therefore more cost to determine the rightful ages of foreigners.
Over-age rugby player issues are not going to go away.
Questions: what is the minimum that a school should do to prove the correctness of age? Should discretion be a consideration? What rights or recourse should parents have in matters such as these?
CHARACTER – A CONSIDERATION FOR SELECTION
BACKGROUND: I don’t know how much weight this holds, but a few weeks back a user claiming to know something about the KZN schools selection process opened a can of worms when stating that a particular player was overlooked for Craven Week selection because of the a reputation stemming back to last year and the potential negative effect he might have on the current team.
It seems as though the coaching staff at his school manage to get the best out of this player in terms of his on-field performances.
No one is going to deny that individuals do have the potential to disrupt team dynamics and certainly in professional team sports, the character of a player is an important consideration.
Question: At school level, in selecting boys who will be under the supervision of adults and will have restrictions placed upon them, is it fair to evaluate and exclude a player on this basis of having a bad attitude or being problematic? If it is a criteria, should the boys be told well in advance that they will be judged on this? And shouldn’t all of them be evaluated equally? Or is this something that should just naturally be a goal of any young aspiring sportsman to aspire to?
As said before, this last issue is based on a comment made by one user.
@Ploegskaar: Ploeg as die skoolhoof nou net die standaard van Rugby daar in bergbok land ook kan verhoog sal dit wonderlik wees. Of moet ons nie in wonderwerke glo nie?
@Grasshopper: Hockey has “1 on 1’s”, basically the taker has to run in from the edge of the circle and have a shot, the keeper can come off his line and defend almost as he pleases within the tackle laws. The keeper has much more chance of saving the shot, but the shooter can have more than one shot in the 8 seconds allowed.
All teams very evenly matched in KZN at the moment but I think Northwood deserve their top ranking.
Certain side are unbeatable at home … (not Northwood, College managed to put one past them there)
24 x Glenwood hockey reps – http://www.glenwoodhighschool.co.za/hockey-reports
23 x Westville hockey reps – http://www.wbhs.co.za/?p=2419
@Woltrui: The country’s cricket
@BOG: Hahahaha. Maybe they should try a bit of old fashion discipline in Bloem. The “gentlemen” would then maybe think twice before they sell the County’s cricket out for leather jackets and hard cash
@GreenBlooded: Yip the ref has nothing better to do than man the technical areas, etc. Surely a tournament of this nature should have had BokSmart representation or a tournament director to control these issues??
@WBHS Griffon: penalty shoot outs or what ever they are called in hockey we all know is like flipping a coin, the sides are evenly matched. Glenwood got 24 reps in the coastal sides and Westville 23…..
@WBHS Griffon: After a draw at full time, 1 on 1’s. Same for Northwood vs Kearsney, Kearsney take it 5-3 on 1 on 1’s. Northwood will be gutted, leading with 30 seconds on the clock. Great side, just need to learn how to close out matches.
@WBHS Griffon: Were there any over-aged boys in that hockey side that ‘slipped past’ your internal auditor?
Ist Westville Hockey just beat Glenwood 10-9.
@GreenBlooded: Surprise surprise, Glenwood are leading the way in school discipline now too, lol! I highly doubt that, especially given the background and area the boys come from.
@GreenBlooded: No poetry there at all. In my story the King David oke would have smote the Edenvale oke by felling him with a well aimed pebble from his sling.
@GreenBlooded: Interesting article. KZN schools are not so bad after all.
Saw this article on the same website regarding the racial abuse issue in the Cape a few weeks ago. Good that PG are having an independant disciplinary hearing. Well done to them.
http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/gimmies-hoping-to-repair-damage
Also saw this article on the same website on what should happen to the boys if found guilty.
http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/racial-abuse-should-result-in-expulsion
Reading the comments here, one comes to realize how blessed it is to have a school full of young gentlemen where no rules are required.
@Westers: Greenblooded, flies don’t sit on him……
@Woltrui: Very similar to the system applied by the ex-Affie, now headmaster at Bellville. If your hair is too long for instance, you get a warning to have it cut that same day, but if you choose to ignore, you are promptly loaded into the school bus with all the other boskoppe the following morning for a not so fashionable chop at the local barber
@GreenBlooded:
First Rule of all sport:
When in doubt, blame the ref.
When you lose, blame the ref.
When you win, blame the ref, because you should have won by more.
Who wants to be a ref?
Love the way the poor referee gets blamed…………
Eish!!
http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/coach-fired-after-assaulting-players
@BOG: They use to cut the flannels. Now everybody has short pants
. They had to move to the next level then. Those Affies laaities is a dangerous bunch. Elbows slapping and what have you else on the rugby field! 
@Woltrui: Thought that they cut off the legs of their school flannells
Affies, the Diesel Mechs from Pretoria, follow the following criteria on disciplinary issues at the school. If kids don’t do their homework, naughty in classes etc, they get an incident report against them. Three incident reports. The kid is not allowed to represent the school the coming Saturday on the sport field(apart from sitting detention).
Red card. Miss 2 matches. We had the case now where one of our star players, Calvin Allison, got red carded before the Wildeklaver tournament. He couldn’t take part in the WildeKlawer.
Steroids: Difficult to prevent individuals from doing it. I don’t believe a coach of any standard would allow it, it normally happens without their knowledge. Affies got experts in last year to speak to the kids regarding the dangers surrounding steroids.
The Rapport newspaper ran an article about 2 months ago concerning steroid usage in schools in Pretoria. They claimed coaches were involved etc. Police had reports. Arrests were to follow within the week. Haha. Utter rubbish. Till this day nothing happened. Rapport were obviously looking to sensationalise the issue.
@GreenBlooded: Sure, but if the kid feels he might be victimised for lack of layalty then he has picked the wrong school to start with. Of course the real onus is on the parent to raise any grievances from the start rather than reacting by leaving. If the grievance is long standing then the school is hardly likely to be surprised. If each case is examined I think you will find fault on each side, “buyer”, “product”and possibly even “loser”. You know the case I am talking about, not going to rehash it here, suffice to say that parents need to be very, very careful what message they are giving to an impressionable young man.
@RBugger: WE can only hope. But then again, Straulie did start taking an interest, didn’t he
@RBugger: I fully agree!!! These kids’ priority should be to get good matric results at the end.And here we are, making professional sportsmen out of them at 13.On a different note, what then happens when a boy decides to rather play tennis in Grade 9, or realises the time consumed by rugby is putting his academics in jeorpady in Grade 10/11 and decides to quit?Does he then lose his bursary/scholarship?Is it really fair to tie up these kids into such contracts at such a young age.
I think the schools should actually accept some risk in this as people do with any investment.There are ebb and flows in the market, and sometimes you will lose more than you have gained, or even lose it all.You want to ‘buy’ a boy in Grade 7, accept that his priorities may change in 2 years, heck, he may not even want to be at that school.
@Gungets Tuft: Agreed.
Exciting times for the Sharks I would say. Wow, Brendan Venter and John Smit – 2 through and through rugby men…
Hopefully they will show interest at school level
@Gungets Tuft: I wonder if the chilly breeze blowing through Kings Park at the moment is going to have an effect at schoolboy level ….
Good question!! Probably a topic that would do justice to a separate thread.
@Gungets Tuft: ………at least pick up the phone and chat to your counterpart………
Could be tricky. If a deal is not struck then you have exposed the boy’s “dis-loyalty” to the school he has to stay at. In much the same way as phoning a prospective employee’s current employer for a reference. If you don’t on the other hand you will be accused of underhandedness. Damned if you do – damned if you don’t.
@RBugger: I think the same, if a kid decides to move, let them go – you lose their loyalty anyway. The only issue is that they might have taken an opportunity from someone else. Every school has limited scholarships that they can offer, so a Grade 7 kid who takes one, then leaves 1/2 way through Grade 8 for another offer has robbed another boy of an opportunity.
Don’t underestimate the effect of scholarships, especially to the private schools. Speak to the admissions people at all schools about the withdrawals of applications now that the privates have announced their scholarships. I hear numbers of 15% being mentioned.
However, schools should at least have some integrity in the process – if you start dealinig with the parent of a boy (nobody deals with the boys) at another school, especially if you know they are on scholarship, at least pick up the phone and chat to your counterpart, it is simple good manners.
I wonder if the chilly breeze blowing through Kings Park at the moment is going to have an effect at schoolboy level ….
@noordwes: I believe that is the route to go.
They could be allowed to move if they pay back the bursary to the first school.
It seems ludicrous to me that an unhappy boy on a scholarship is unable to move schools!!! Aer we talking professional sport contracts here??
These are kids, not pro athletes. If they are not happy and the reasons are fair and just, then by all means, they should be allowed to move.
I think it is rubbish that they will not be allowed to move – let school kids be what what they are, kids!!! Seems to me that professionalism has taken over the very spirit that school boy rugby is meant to be – fun! No wonder so many kids use roids, the pressure on them must be huge!
@Pedantic:You talk about the other schools involved in a tranparent process. What was tranparent about it. No outcomes were ever published. We all had to guess based on who suddenly disappeared from what school. That is not at all transparent.
Poaching:
All 1st Tier and many 2nd Tier schools have sports bursaries and scholarships in place and have had them in place for many, many years – not only in sport but music and academics as well – so this is not new and is totally acceptable. To me what is not acceptable is when a franchise, like the Bulls, offers school boys school bursaries, pays them a monthly salary/retainer and sometimes organises their parents jobs and accommodation – that is very wrong – imagine the pressure on that kid to perform – he becomes the breadwinner – at 17 or 18 years old!!!
However let’s look at this from the boy and his families side – he is approached by a top 1st Tier school to enrol at their school on a 100% sports bursary – this is an incredible achievement. If he gets offers from two of three schools – even better. Well done to him.
As far as I am aware schools in close proximity have “gentlemen’s” agreements not to “poach” each others top players – however what happens from grade 7 to grade 8 can become a bit of a touchy subject!
@CRC: There was the case earlier this year of a boy who wanted to move from School A to School B as he felt that School A were not giving him a fair shot at representation and School B would. His father approached school B who were glad to have him. School A then kicked up a hissy fit, threw their toys out of the cot and scuppered the move. Saw him playing a couple of weeks back. Might have made it…….
Yup – better make sure you make the right choice. There are no second chances it seems – certainly in the case of moves to one particular school.
@GreenBlooded: It really seems unfair that parents cannot move a child who won a scholarship to a particular school if they are unhappy for whatever reason. The school might well not be providing what the parents and boy that it would. In those circumstances to be forced to pay back any scholarship and not being allowed to obtain a scholarship at another school seams really unfair. I am aware of a talented sportsman who moved schools and received some financial assistance – but not a scholarship. Makes sense now.
@GreenBlooded: So if the player was the 3rd to put his hands in, or not roll away from the ruck, he takes one for the team. Eeisch. You are right, takes out the admin, but good luck with Uber-Dad when his lightie gets pinned.
@Playa: On the red card issue – relating also to All Black’s post as well as yours. I like Dale’s method – 1 match for a yellow, 2 for a red regardless. The reasons are this:
1. It will keep the boys on their best behaviour.
2. It will teach the boys the very important lesson that ‘life is not fair’. Sometimes you have to take punishment for something you didn’t do. My son was gated last weekend because someone else knocked his towel off of his peg on the floor before he even got back to his dorm. Life can be a bitch sometimes. Boys need to learn that. Builds character.
3. It takes all of the admin, precedent and hanna-hanna out of the process. 1 for a yellow, 2 for a red. No discussion. Even if the ref was totally wrong.
Soon we are going to have lawyers setting up offices in the schools sports department like what is happening with the medical profession.
@Greenwood: More questions than answers there mate.
1. Who was this person? The doctor conducting the test? If so he is probably in breach of profession eithics discussing the affairs of a patient. If it is a Westville staffer………ja well no fine.
2. If not the Doctor – what do you mean by ‘oversaw the test’. Surely the quack can do that on his own? Or was he there to ‘oversee’ that the results were what they needed to be?
3. How would this person know about another person in the Westville team? I am now thinking it wasn’t the Dr. Maybe the Westville ‘internal auditor’?
4. The big question: Who was the other player?
Nope – no apology from me.
@Greenwood: If the gentleman says he oversaw the bone marrow or bone density test then he would still have no clue about the age of the player – he might know if the player had osteoporosis though.
So if this is what the guy told you – it would still be suspect and no apologies necessary as the school in question refused to join the other schools in a transparent process.
Great topic beet! I have some brief responses to th issues:
POACHING
Very touchy subject.In principle, poaching a kid on a bursary/scholarship in another school should be downright ‘outlawed’.We are not in a professional set-up here.A kid whon a bursary/scholarship who becomes unhappy and wants to move should do so…but with consequences, e.g. repayment of benefits received.
RED CARDS
The discipline should be enforced by each school. At Dale, a boy gets a match suspension for a yellow and 2 matches for a red card, plus detention.It is a tough one though as some decisions made by referees may be dodgy, and this comes down to the school’s disciplinary commitees to review, upon the boy’s appeal.Also tough as an internal ‘investigation’ may be biased, but as Gungets pointed out, trust plays a big factor.One has to trust that the school will do the right thing.
OVER-AGED PLAYERS
Verification is key.On the same breath, we need to consider that boys mature differently.At UCT a few moons back, we played a touring Under 19 side from France.Those boys looked 25!!! Boys from north of the Limpompo tend to look older than their southern counterparts.So we tend to judge their looks based on what we are used to.White boys from Europe look older, black boys from up north look older.So verification is key.
On the flip side, we have seen cases of cheating.In some instances, it is a case of inacurate/incomplete records, especially for boys coming from the rural areas.Once again, in agreement with Gungets, each school needs to dig as deep as possible before accepting a boy, and trust is required.Where a boy’s age is in doubt, I think the initial ‘investigation’ should be handled by the adults without the boy’s knowledge, verified then and we play on.anything is fishy about the records at hand, then the parents can be brought in until the matter is settled.The bone tests et al can be done thenIf
CHARACTER
A lot of us drank and smoked in high school.But the difference in times is that we made damn sure that we were not found out.These are teenagers and they will mess up here and there,so let us not treat them like adults.Not every talented player wants to go professional.The young man’s smoking habit should not be considered in terms of his future rugby prospects, but more a concern of his health allround.The pruchase of durreys (cigarettes – as we called them at school) in provincial/school attire is wrong to the core.Greeting an adult with a smoke in your hand is a definition of character…a rebellious character, and no one wants a rebel in their team situation.We must give life lessons and not just rugby lessons to these boys.Look at the stats, and you will see just how few high school superstars make it big professionally.
@Greenwood: Owe Westville an apology … why, because someone pinned the wrong overage guy??
It just shows that there needs to be a common transparent process. Not transparent to all us cyber-trolls, but transparent between the schools. I don’t expect any school to react to questions on blogs but we should be able to trust them to ensure that they follow a defined and approved method of clearing players. From my point of view, all I need is a statement from College saying the issue has been settled between the schools and nobody will ever hear from me again about age. I look forward to that, who needs the distraction.
Greenblooded – make that “Bone Density test” (too early in the morning for me !)
Greenblooded – Overage players
In fairness to Westville , (not my favourite institution ) and your and my banging on about
the alleged overage player there last year – I have to comment on a chance meeting at College
150th – with the actual gentleman who oversaw the bone marrow test of JB – the “rolled ankle”
player – He confirmed that this player was not overage BUT he did finish the conversation with
the comment that there was one other overage player in the W Ville team last year …..
Perhaps we owe Westville some form of apology ?
Lots of issues discussed here that have been very controversial over the last few months. Well done Beet. Dont have time to comment on all but:
Red Cards: I personally think that the game of rugby is being compromised by the law makers. The rucks are a disaster with a ref being asked to make calls on 15 different laws at any given ruck. If you watched the AB’s vs France you would have witnessed quite a few errors by Barnes and he is supposed to be in the top 3 or 4 in the world. These infringements can lead to yellow cards and ultimately a red. a mandatory suspension is therefore not fair. Many have asked for the union to get involved. With 100 schools playing every weekend you could end up with 30 or so boys having to attend a hearing. Who has the time for that? The tackle laws are a big problem. What was acceptable and applauded 10 years ago is now an immediate red. Yes, we must be safe but I personally think this is an area that needs to be addressed. A few weeks ago a provincial player and a schoolboy made very similar tackles and received different sanctions from the refs. This in itself makes a mandatory suspension incorrect. In previous decades sending off was limited to dirty/foul play. In the modern game technical issues can result in a red card. I therefore believe that each incident needs to be addressed on its merits. If a suspended sentence is given it is not a dig at the ref and the decision made. Recently a prop was yellow carded for continual off sides and then red carded later in the game for hands in a ruck in the red zone. The video shows that it was his first time being off sides but the teams 4th offence in a short space of time. Yellow was justified. Problem is that this player had a clean record and was unlucky to be pinged for hands in. Close call but correct, as was the 2nd ‘team’ yellow. Mandatory two weeks out? Not fair.
@GreenBlooded: Hey, stop getting me into trouble here. I think that the global appeal of soccer is due to that simplicity. I am not a big fan of the game mainly because I think ballroom dancing is more of a contact sport (probably equally matched with prima donna’s), and I get the moer in every time the players take dives (and get well rewarded for them, and apparently there is no shame whatsoever in it), and perform like spoiled brats, abusing the ref etc. Anyway, enough, this is a rugby blog, I did not mean to pollute it by introducing peculiar shaped balls.
And, much more to the point, I see it creeping into rugby, players hamming it up and screaming at the ref for fouls etc. Terrible, they should be told to go and play with round balls somewhere.
@McCulleys Workshop: In my opinion Mr ST should never be allowed to set foot on a rugby field again.
@Gungets Tuft: Don’t appologise – you are spot on about soccer. I mean how many laws are there to remember? Three? I wanted to be a soccer ref at first but I couldn’t afford the lobotomy………
@meadows: cont – the resposibility of the school especially as often there are busaries at stake. and that misrepresentation in that instance amounts to fraud IMO. The school should do whatever it need in term of demanding verification until it is absolutely satisfied as to the boys age
I wonder to what extent schools have turned a blind eye to what seems to be an obvious over age player, based on the fact that there is an ID that confirms the correct age. While I do think there is a fair amount a school can do in a case were the age/maturity of a pupil is questionable, like contacting his previous school, sports club and relatives to confirm his age, it is a difficult issue when presented with a seemingly legitimate ID. The greater issue seems to be the lack of sanction when caught out, as in the case of Mr ST, who I am led to believe is playing in the ranks of the Kings or Border. Surely some form of serious sanction should be metered out as a deterant by the Union? Not only is it fraudulent (on the basis that the pupil could be a scholarship recipient) but the danger factors are real. The onus is on the schools to adequately monitor and police the age issue.
@beet: I did get that – that is the issue that I was trying to address in saying that the verification of age should absolutely be
@meadows: Good points. In this instance, the over-age problem begin referred to is not the case of an 19yo staying back a year but rather that which arises when a player is meant to be a particular age but things about his physical appearance, his strength, speed and most often size leads reasonably minded people to believe that he is in fact older than he or his parents claim. eg an u13 player who is actually 15yo.
I also wonder about the impact of not having schoolmasters as coaches. As a schoolmaster, you understand the values of the school and the responsibility you have to raise honest young men.
I think the point about the character of the school and the people that are trusted to raise our children is important. I had an interesting chat with a nephew of mine who is at a Joburg private school.
His team has struggled this season and the coach broached the subject of how to manage games as not too lose by a too bigger margin against a bigger school. They discussed negative tactics like faking injuries and delaying binds at the scrum and so on.
He said the coach came back the next day and apologized to the boys and said they might not have fast and big player but they have a duty to be honest in their efforts to compete.
@LineBreak: Agreed. Things are not always as straightforward as we like them to be. I still think being above board and honest in these situations helps though. And when a school does that enough times, it’s reputation precedes it. The converse also applies.
@GreenBlooded: I agree with you re: costs and I definitely do not want to undermine the seriousness of steroids and the need to continue the fight for drug free sport.
But I’m reluctant to say one is a lesser evil. As I see it the advantage gained by the over-age player, works itself out of the system by the time the player reaches the open age-group. Between u13 and u16 it is a factor, especially u13-u15. For the parents I spoke to this issue is real and it’s a concern. And who’s to say the problem is not on the increase as well.
The effects of steroids, well I guess this is different from the over-age issue in that the best results probably come to light in u16 and upwards. So an u18 player on juice could well have the strength of a grown man, making him the equivalent threat of say an 18 year old playing u15 rugby.
Today there are so many well conditioned 1st team players around. I imagine they spend 5 mornings a week in gym following special programmes coupled with diets and supplements. It would be interesting to know the percentage advantage steroids are capable of giving an 18yo over someone else his age, height, weight who follows the same training and diet programme and is totally legal.
@McCulleys Workshop: I didn’t comment on soccer, all I said was that it has simple rules that a dof oke could understand. I am right, soccer rules are simple, that’s the attraction. Well, for some, takes too long for me and you are not allowed to really tackle the oke.
@Gungets Tuft: I realise that is possible to play for the Sharks U19 side while still at school. A few years back the Sharks asked 3 MHS matrics who had played Craven week to play for the U19’s in the Currie Cup season when they had completed their school season (in those days MHS played in the third term). Of the three only Ruan Combrinck was able to play a few games (Pat Lambie had cricket commitments and Robert de Bruyn was injured). There was view at the time that it was a cynical attempt on the Sharks part to ensure they all committed to the Sharks.
My point is that there is a vast difference between this type of arrangement and being a full time pro, as the U19’s are these days, in terms of nutrition, physical analysis and development, and skills and tactical development over the course of the entire 12 months.
@Gungets Tuft: GT your soccer comments are Doff.
@GreenBlooded: even I’m scared of Pinheiro!
@meadows: Some can do both. Cameron Wright, U19 having repeated a week of Grade 10 and the whole of Grade 11 (minus that strange week in Gr10) is at Hilton and playing U20 for the Sharks?
@Pedantic: Doubt that. Nobody hangs with GREENMOM.
@Meadows,well said Sir. I agree with everything you’ve said.
@Pedantic: Hahha, nope, at my PC at the moment.
Perfect world – I suppose you are right, but is it that hard to get schools to add those documents, or a selection of them, to the application for admission. The bottom line is we need to come up with a process of age-verification that is accepted by all, applied by all. Then parents who are complaining can merely ask the subject school, get verification, and we all move on.
Interesting topics indeed – here are my thoughts.
Poaching
As one blogger said, if the headmasters or signatories to whatever “understanding” is in place do not adhere to the spirit of the arrangement then it will become a free for all to the detriment of all the schools and inter school relations. The “agreement”, as I understand it, is not legally binding on anyone as such it is imperative that the intention or “spirit” dictates interpretation.
Exceptions should be capable of being dealt with between the affected parties on this basis. Quite frankly if a headmaster or senior staff member acts in such a way as to circumvent the spirit of the understanding then as a parent or board member I would question their ethical suitability to be entrusted with education young men.
Red cards
A straight forward review process with a minimum one match sanction unless there are significant extenuating circumstances such as the wrong player being sent off (it happens!). Ideally the review should be conducted at a union level.
Over aged players
I had thought that the rules were clear. Schoolboy rugby is an U18 game with exceptions made for genuine students who may be U19 in their matric year but not older. The issues of keeping boys back has been debated ad nauseam but I’ve never understood why a talented player would want to stay at school in his U19 year if he is not eligible for Craven Week selection.
If he has rugby aspirations he would be far better off in the U19 professional ranks in terms of physical and skills development than playing another year of schoolboy rugby and trying to catch up in the U21 age group the following year.
The school should absolutely take responsibility to verifying age considering that bursaries (ie money) are at stake. This sort of misrepresentation is fraud plain and simple!
The level of due diligence should be such that the school is able to satisfy itself beyond doubt that the boy is of the age that he, his agent, or parents purport that he is.
Character
I have no doubt that “character” is, and indeed should be, a critical factor in selection. Rugby is a team sport and anyone who does not adhere to that fundamental principle disqualifies himself from selection to the team however individually talented he may be.
An important facet of character is what we often describe as “heart” or “guts”. One of the things that I love about rugby is that it is an excellent gauge of individual character. I would far rather have on my team a player with 90% of the talent who responds by digging deeper when the going gets tough, as it inevitably does, than the more talented player who goes AWOL in those circumstances.
Steroid abuse
Not sure where this topic went or if it now off the agenda – Beet know my views on this.
I have no doubt, based on what I consider to be reliable anecdotal evidence, that steroid use is far more widespread in schools, and especially at U19-21 levels at the franchises, than many people think. Unfortunately there needs to be a will to stamp it out whereas IMO it is being aided and abetted by some in authority.
South African journalist Thomas Kwenaite uncovered several “age-cheats” who participated in an Under-15 age group tournament representing South Africa hosted in France. The captain of that side was a 24 year old third year University student from Port Elizabeth.[5] After revealing the age of the player, the player’s father took Kwenaite to the South African press ombudsman for “slander” before withdrawing his complaint after it was found that school records show that the player would have started school aged 2 years old. Kwenaite also claims that he was told that he was “unpatriotic” for reporting the story.
@ Beet interesting topic mate! These are serious issues.
@Gungets Tuft: Firstly, I wish I lived in your perfect world and secondly, what bloody phone do you have, I also wanna type an essay like that in 2 minutes!
Age Fraud is nothing new – it’s a problem internationally and no surprises .. Africa is at the forefront:
From Wikipedia (50/50 on accuracy) ;) …
The 1999 FIFA U-17 World Championship saw Nigeria beat Japan 9–0, following the game Japan’s French manager Philippe Troussier quipped that he saw one of Nigeria’s U-17 players enter a taxi “with his wife and two children and then driving home” implying that Nigeria had fielded over-age players.
On the age thing
The problem is two-fold.
1. Socio-economic. Without setting Bog off on a Columbine rampage, rugby (more than any other sport) is seen as a way of getting a poor kid a decent education and perhaps even a paying pro-sportsman job. Straight away we are going to deal with people (not necessarily parents, schools will do it as well) who will exploit that to their advantage. Lying about age is the easiest.
2. Medical age tests are prohibitively expensive and not conclusive, not that I can see as even the medical fraternity says so. Private investigation is also not cheap, and is subject to interpretation. What is sufficient in the books of one school will be too little for another, and generally too little for the school that is doing the complaining, or the parents standing around doing the complaining.
Franky, I don’t know what the solution is. My son rigged a false ID making him 3 years older in about an hour the other night. High definition scanner sitting on my desk, his sisters ID book with all the references, photoshopped his dial onto it and he was off to the boozer in my car (yes, I did warn him to not drive around 8:02 pm!!). For someone with contacts at Home Affairs it is even easier. If the ID book is going to get you free schooling for 10 years then money is not an issue.
How would I do it.
1. Ask for birth notifications from newspapers and medical bills from hospitals.
2. Ask hospitals for addmission records
3. Home Affairs search on birth register
4. A search for the application for a child grant
5. Records of school reports going back to Grade 1
6. Vaccination records. Every child has to have one
In the absence of ANY of these proofs then the child is suspicious, so move to the next step. Refuse the child a scholarship until they produce those records. If it is important enough to the parents, then they will find them. Without that, the parents must pay for the medical process for age confirmation. They will only do it if they know it will be successful.
In the cases where suspicion is being placed on a boy, due to size, or effect on a match, let the objector take it to their school formally (rather than stand and skinner on the side of the field). That school then approaches the subject school for the documentation.
This will have the effect that all schools will ask for the documentation up front – they are taking and “attack machine” on, lets make sure he is “licensed” first – yes. Some cases will be open and shut, documents will be availabel and be above reproach from day one. You will need to do this for very few kids (I expect the kids playing chess will not need to worry too much about a dispute).
Should the subject school not be able to produce the required documentation they should withdraw the child until it is available. Should the umbraged parents next to the field STILL not be happy then they can fund an independent investigator, approved by ALL the schools, to investigate and report back. I would expect that if all the recommendations are followed (as above – feel free to comment or add to the list of admissable documents) then we will have very very few exceptions where Oom Brad will need to put on his marching boots and soek …. gnome sane?
Parents that stand around casting doubts on players, remember the single rule in a d#ck measuring contest, you all have to haal uit en wys, it’s not a subjective assessment. So even little Phonsonby Henry Smythe-Jones-Shabalala, born on this day of our Lord 21 January 1994, at King Henry 5th Royal Infirmary Private Hospital had better have his vaccination, cosYcos Uber-Dad is going to check …. there, I said it ..
@GreenBlooded: I hear a lot about “bone density” testing but I’m of the opinion that bone density is not what determines age.
There is a bone age test that has been implemented in provincial cricket in the Asian regions … apparently a simple x-ray that is compared to an age chart – not expensive at all – an X-ray of the left hand/wrist is a couple hundred bucks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_age
@beet: I think the obstacle in dealing with both issues is the cost of testing. Bone density tests are rumoured to be around R2k per test – not sure on the figure for banned substances but it can’t be cheap either. Valid point by Valke though – is it worse to have age-worthy guys pumped up on juice or over-aged okes with standard issue O+? Which is the lesser of the 2 evils. The age thing was never a problem before. I’m sure one celebrated Glenwood player back in the 80’s had his 21st during his first attempt at Matric……
@valke: I can’t condone either of the evils, but I must say, would steroids transorm a 15 year old player into a 19 year old machine instantaneously ?
Kort opsomming van die artikel vir ons ongeleterde (uitgesluit die taalgeleerde plaasboer vanie Perel en die ambasadeur van die Vrystaatse vlaktes) dutchies:
1. Glenwood koop weer ‘n hond uit n bos uit spelers hier in Charkieland. Kan ons hulle nie maar uitskop nie?
2. Moet die wetters wat op die rugbyveld baklei en rooi kaarte kry geskors word vir n paar “games” al dan nie. Burrow het nou weer die appelkar omgemoker deur gerooikaarte spelers ‘n week na die “game” te kies.
3. Ouer laaities speel weer in die “league”. ID’s helpie meer. Wat die m@#r nou?
4. Mag pokkertjies wat rook vir die Craven Week span gekies word? 8)
@Westers: So are you saying some of the KC boys are hangin’ with GREENMOM tonight ?
@valke: These are issues that arose in KZN but by no means limited to just KZN bloggers. All welcome to comment.
The steroids issue is a serious one. Nationally it has received far more attention than over-age players.
I don’t think we have arrived at a time or place where anyone finds steroids usage acceptable.
We are meant to have a national organisation in place to deal with drug test. In terms of over-age checking, not even a single regional body.
The over-age issue is still playing catch-up in terms of public awareness and condemnation.
The key in the battle to stop it is for those parents affected by it to pool together and place pressure on their own schools to do something about it. If enough people start doing that and enough schools start addressing it, we might start seeing results = clean ups. JMHO
@beet:
2 past eight with Pepsi……..
@beet: GREENMOM will only pick up your post after closing time tonight.
@Gungets Tuft: Agree with that mate. Cannot understand how an oke who is serious about sport can even consider smoking. This comes from an oke who smoked from the age of 15 until 39 – 3 years ago I threw the things in the bin never to pick them up again. Probably saves me R1.5k a month!!
@GreenBlooded: You took me the wrong way. I was suggesting that if he had been a Glenwood boy he might have been suspended (but implied to RBugger that at K he would not have been). I have never been one to crit Glenwood boys behaviour, manners etc. because I have never had the need to. It’s always been good in my book.
@Gungets Tuft: That’s the term I left out under the Red Cards question: ATTACK MACHINES! Thank you Greenmom for this.
@Greenblooded: Agree about the boys, but it clearly doesn’t extend to the gentleman you attributed it to – remind me to tell you about it.
@LineBreak: “What happens if a young player is at a school on a scholarship and is desperately unhappy? Does he simply have to give up his scholarship and move on ?”.
I don’t know if this point alludes to some mumbling I have heard about recently but it is a valid one. It pretty much means that a Gr 7 boy better pick correctly the first time because there is no chance of rectifying matters later if you make a bad choice. If he gets to Gr9 at School X and discovers it is not what he was lead to believe / promises were not kept / he would end up doing better at School Y he is pretty much stuffed because the agreement will prevent him from making a move that might benefit him later.
@Gungets Tuft: Just to be clear – I think smoking is moronic – sorry smokers, but it is. The kids should be sent off to play soccer, with the simple rules that a dof oke can understand because he is too thick to understand the complex rules of rugby. JMHO …
@Westers: If you are in any doubt about the discipline levels at Glenwood you have clearly never expereinced Tony Pinheiro. As others on this forum have noted – the manners and respect displayed by Glenwood boys is becoming the yardstick to be measured by.
Red cards.
Follow the process that is set out at Union level. There is a hearing, the case is reviewed and a decision made as to :
1. Was the card justified (remember nothing can be done, the player has been off the field for whatever period of time)
2. If the card was not justified, or there are extenuating circumstance (there can be, no need to expand on that), then there is no suspension.
3. If the card was justified, how severe was the offence. If it was malicious and could have, or did, result in injury to the player, or loss of reputation to the school, then the committee decides the additional penalty (games suspended, dropped from the 1sts etc). If justified but mild, or accidental (clumsy tackle and the “victim” landed badly, could be time served. I think that even if it is the “non-malicious, mild”offence the player should carry a suspended sentence. Repetition results in a suspension.
Remember that a referee needs to put in a report for any red card that they issue, so the refs version is available to the committee and should be taken into account.
The real question is this. In these days of social networking (Facebook, twitter etc), and blogs such as these, how transparent do these proceedings need to be. Do they get published, do they get signed off by a multi-school committee, even if just circulated by mail (with the certainty that the report will be leaked anyway – which school committee member is going to stand up to Uber-Dad from Wildside EduSchool when he demands to know why Hannibal Lector is running out for the opposition when he is clearly an “attack machine”….
Just remember this. When I was at school the very FIRST kit I packed was garters. I knew that if I was seen with my socks down during a match I was suspended for a game. I am not sure that it is feasible now, can you imagine your schools certain SA Schools player being suspended for socks down!!!
It comes down to trust, as do all the topics under discussion in this thread. Do we trust a school to have done the right thing, whether “attracting” players from other schools, investigating all boys for age, or whether they enjoy a cigarette in their private time.
@beet – Poaching: There is apparently a headmasters’ agreement to prevent scholarship students hopping from one school to another. In a nutshell – if a student is on a scholarship / bursary, then any of the schools who form part of the agreement agree not to offer a scholarship / bursary. (It makes sense, as some parents use their kids’ talent as bargaining tools)
I have it on pretty good authority that one of the schools who have agreed to honour this policy are prepared to offer a scholarship to a very talented player, but using some sort of loophole to offer him the scholarship anyways!
Two important points in this particular scenario:
1. The agreement means nothing if the intentions of all the parties are not honourable.
2. What happens if a young player is at a school on a scholarship and is desperately unhappy? Does he simply have to give up his scholarship and move on ?
Very difficult situation, especially if the family cannot afford any of the Tier 1 schools!
Some really good questions posed here. Many of the boys do not seem to be given the ‘life skills’ to cope with being the main man in high school and I have recently seen a boy become very arrogant and full of himself based on his selection.
Here is my 5c worth:
In terms of poaching – it says something about the values of the parents when a child is moved in the example given here. I know of a boy who has attended 3 high schools in 3 years (not ‘poached’) and his father complains that the boy can never stick with anything.
Red cards – this should be dealt with at regional level and not with the school. There are always videos and still photos at every game and that could help in determining the actions thereafter. Alternatively the disciplinary hearing should be attended by representatives from both schools.
Over-aged players: This needs to be standardised nationally – what age is over age? Interestingly, when I was at school, we had a boy turning 21 – he played 1st team with no objection.
Finally Character: This is a hard one because there should be some character building with the responsibility of playing 1st team or KZN. Rule should be given with punishment for breaking the rules. I am, however, still at a loss when I hear of a player of that callibre smoking.
@RBugger: Maybe if he was at Glenwood.
@Westers: The answer is yes, he would have been left out and possibly suspended from school!
@Valke: Steriod abuse by young school kids is mad-ness!
At school, like most of us do, I thought I would be the next Springbok star. After school the realisation hit that I was never going to be good enough to make it, simply too much talent, size, and speedy players out there after school.
Anyway, Roids may make a young kid big and strong, but what about after school when your body starts giving way! School Boy Rugga means nothing in the real world, a star at school often fades away into a normal average Joe human in the real world – steriods or no steriods.
The boys so badly want to make their respective 1st xv that they actually take roids, not realising what they are actually doing to themselves in the long run! They are far too young to realise that 1st xv rugga is just about fun, it actually means nothing
@star: The question you are really asking is, if he were a Kearsney or Glenwwod boy, whose 1st team coaches are also the CW coaches and said coach was getting the best out of him at school, would they have left hime out based on something that happened last year (allegedly)?
@Star: For sure, they should have sat him down and discussed their issues with him and told him that he would be given a chance to sort it out.
The problem is, one of the KZN coaches was greeted by him with a cigarette and slightly pissed – this is obviously a bit immature and silly – but then again, these are school boys and they should be allowed to make mistakes.
One of the players who was with this player at Academy Week also started smoking during the week and so, it is not just this player we are talking about.
The annoying part, I know this boy very well – in fact, I took him out for a jol last year and he is a really good laugh and a great player. He is just to young to grasp his opportunity, I do not think he realises that he could potentially make a career in rugga after school.
Anyway, it is jsut school boy rugby and he should keep having fun – but without the smokes, a few booze here and there are fine, smoking is just a no no!
@ RBugger- surely they should have sat him down there and then if it was an issue last year.Part of the management/coaching of KZN is to gel the team and deal with team dynamic issues. Have they perhaps not labelled him a trouble causer and were not bothered to find out whether there had been an attitude change. ie remiss at the time and now taking the easy way out . As Beet says if the school he has attended have been able to get the best out of him,what is wrong with the KZN set-up. A further problem arises if he is selected for another team because this creates its own selection inconsistencies.And just to be provocative
if he had come from another school would the approach have been the same.
Beet, I know this is suppose to be for the “KZN” region, but I want to ask this question. What is worse, having over aged players in your team, or having kids on steriods in your team ??
I know people do not want to talk about steriod use in schoolboy rugby teams, mostly because most teams has them, but then why discuss over aged players ?
I believe, in most cases, coaches are aware of both.
@Beet: Unfortunately the last statement is true. Obviously will not mention names, but the player in question is a highly rated player who could and possibly should be playing for KZN at CW.
Problem is, the boy likes to party and even greeted a KZN coach with a smoke in his hands – not very clever!
At last years Academy Week, I witnessed a few of the boys buying cigarettes in their KZN outfits – quite shocking really, not surprised their results were so poor.
Anyway, I do feel it is a bit unfait to not pick him, they should just sit him down and explain what is expected of him and then give strict guide-lines on behaviour.