With a very eventful off the field rugby year almost behind them now, DHS’s main up and coming rugby related news story is meant to be and possibly still is the much anticipated public announcement of their new Head of Rugby. The school received numerous applications and a good number of them were from experienced coaches with impressive CVs. With a lot of careful consideration having gone into the final decision-making process and with so much riding on it, it’s expected that this crucial appointment won’t disappoint. DHS turns 150 years old in 2016. The pressure will be on the new guy to get the structures right and turn around the school’s fortunes on the rugby field. Head of Rugby was not the only major post DHS had advertised recently. The application deadline date for the position of principal closed on Friday, 30 November. It’s believed that the name of the new principal will be made known by early February 2013. At the start of 2013, Mike Fennell officially takes the office of the newly created post of CEO. He will oversee all the corporate affairs of the school and is also contracted to head the DHS 2016 Foundation. Since his job spec includes looking at all aspects of how the school is run, he is bound to have a say in rugby related matters. However for now acting Headmistress Marie Vermaak is still fully responsible for the day to day steering of the school. She currently has quite a bit on her plate. An alleged matric examination paper scandal involving her students has erupted. With all this going on, it might be a welcomed relief if a poorly supported rumour suggesting that DHS has pulled out of all sports events including rugby against Glenwood in 2013, could be quashed ASAP!
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@GreenBlooded: Actually thinking about it you might be right Hansie left Grey a few years after me and i do no that in 87 Grey 1st cricket did not lose any games so that might be the case.
@Gungets Tuft: If Hansie said it then it must be true.
@Gungets Tuft: @Gungets Tuft:
Rugby probably, cricket not so sure. As rugbyfan said, Grey weren’t that great in cricket back then.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: What I meant to say was that in Hanises biography it is said that he never lost a game of anything while at GCB, cricket or rugby. Not sure how true that is.
@rugbyfan:
Just like how the officials keep telling me “its a whole load of ish right now”.
As for cricket, yes it was dominated by english medium schools(still kinda is) but there are some of them who were up there then and are still up there now with DHS,Wynberg and Grey High coming to mind.
@Gungets Tuft:
I’m sure that about 75% of Grey rugby players can say that
@rugbyfan: I don’t believe Hansie ever lost a schools match of rugby??
Cricket story is interesting i think until the late 80,s sa schools cricket was dominated by a few school which were mainly the English meduim schools but that has change a bit now.
When i was at Grey Bloem we used to get trounced by Queens in cricket even when we had Hansie Cronje and co we still lost.
@Queenian: Ye mate i know what happened with the 3 brothers but that is water under the bridge now
@HORSEFLY NO.1: What is the deal going on with DHS and GWC at the moment.
@rugbyfan: @Queenian:
i dont think anybody ever called DHS innocent, instead everybody just attacked Glenwood, force of habit really. but we dont really take from the high schools, more like u13 players from the Junior schools. know of one kid from dale junior coming to DHS next year
@rugbyfan: You make some good points.
@rugbyfan: I agree with you 100% i think politics played a big role in sport in those days.And ye the average farmer boy who went to Queens stopped playing rugby after leaving school.
You must aslo remember that politics helped schools like Grey Bloem in those days you know all to well the 3 brothers who were forced out of Queens in 1972 because the were Afrikaans who all landed up playing Grey 1st and CW who swung the balance between the 2 school for at least 5 yrs.
Just thought i would remind you and ye agree Grey are the top of the pile.
@rugbyfan: Gee you have a big mouth mate flip i call it verbal dihrea but i agree i dont think DHS are that inocent themself
Anyway i wish that DHS do get there act together it can only be good for SA rugby if we do not lose these old Tradintional schools.
Roger and i forget 29 for NE Cape ( I suppose you might think they a joke but pre 1980 they were pretty decent out fit. Ask the Bulls they lost in Cradock in 1977
@Roger:Playa: On the provincial player list Queens has produced 86 people who have played for Border/ 11 for Natal/ 3 for WP/ 6 for Rhodesia/ 5 for Free State/ 11 for EP/ and 2 for GW
And now i have that off my back Grey Bloem is still by far the Top Rugby School in this country always has been and always will be.
Also just would like to remind people that a briliant player say playing for Border Currie cup side in say 1952 had know chance of playing for the Springboks say against an average player from WP/Bulls ( Politics was rife in sport then )
And remember Border actually shared the CC that year.
As for what is going on between DHS and GWC i would love to know looks like GWC has been poaching the DHS players if you go about the comments above, but that could be the kettle calling the cup black is this not the same DHS who is trying its heart out to rape the Border schools.
@Roger: It is difficult for us to run around and say that due to school A having 30 SA schools crickters or 40 SA Schools rugby players when the whole SA schools set up has only being around since the mid 60,s what about before that and also some people say it must be international reps which is also hard as international sport in the last 30 yrs as exploded so there are currently 16 Crickets test a year now were in say the 50,s there were only about 15 in a decade.
Provincial Players might be more realistic but the then the argument would be that playing for say WP is alot different to playing for Border.
Also remember schools like Bishop,s and KES would always have high numbers as until say 1970,80s most boys say who went to Dale stopped playing sport after they left school were kids in Cape Town or JHB did not so it is difficult to say.
Prime example with Cricket in 1947 and 1955 a schools rep team was choosen to play against touring teams this how they were made up.
1947
Bishops 3/St Andrews 1/Paarl BH 1/Queens 2/Grey PE 1/CBC Kimberly 1/ Louis Botha 1/SACS 2
1955
Bishops 1/Grey PE 1/Queens 4/Dale 1/DHS 1/DE Laselle 1/KES 1/Churchill 2
So if say SA Schools had been run from say 1930 the picture would look alot different although you would find say Bishops would still have had the most.
Also selction process in provinces had alot to be desired for example.
Grey Bloem 1970 – 13 Free State CW Players 2 SA schools
Queens 1970 – 2 Border Schools CW Players 0 SA schools
Grey vs Queens 1970 Grey won 9-6 ( Free State beat Border 33-3)
Grey Bloem 1971 – 14 Free State CW Players 3 SA schools.
Queens 1971 – 3 Border Schools CW Players 0 SA schools
Grey vs Queens 1971 Queens won 17-16 and 12-10 ( Free State schools beat Border schools CW 27 -6
Just trying to show dont always read to much into my school produced the best players
@Roger: I hear you.
Once again, I’m not too sure of Queens or College’s numbers in terms of internationals.In that respect,I think the ranking would have to be thinned to be “Best Schools By National Representation Only”.
@Playa: @All Black: using national reps would be a better yardstick – then again, the Cape schools have a huge advantage just by virtue of their age. KES has produced 26 cricket internationals and 8 rugby internationals. On the cricket front – although DHS are ahead of KES ito international players produced, KES has produced more SA Schools players than any otehr school – that’s why I would love to see the list of first class cricketers produced per school? If you combined the schools I still think Bishops would be number 1. How would Queens and College stack up ito internationals produced in cricket and rugby?
@Roger: Oh ok. Dont think Provincial reps would be an accurate measure. Smaller provinces would have heaps of reps from their local schools. Newcastle would be in the top 5 then.
Would probably use results and national reps but still very difficult. Isnt it also about how a school plays as a team rather than individuals? Nice topic to discuss and argue about though. 
@Roger: Fair enough. I wasnt sure what criteria you used.I assumed it was based on results/dominance/quality of teams over their rugby playing years.Provincial representatives would be difficult to measure.
Queens in their 152 year history have had tons of Border representatives,possibly more than a number of the schools you have in your top 5 in their respective provinces.I dont know the number,but chances are its more than the other schools,as Border teams have historically been predominantly made up of old boys from the 3 Colleges.
So, measurement based on provincial representatives,may just be flawed.It would be more accurate to use national representatives in my view.
@All Black: @Playa: the suggestion by Grasshopper was to run the stats and see who the top 5 schools in the country were in terms of provincial cricket and rugby players produced. I reckon Bishops would be number 1 as the Paarl schools, although as old, are not to hot on the cricket front. I listed what I think are my top five cricket schools (most provincial/first class players produced) and top five rugby schools (same criteria). In retrospect Affies probably wouldn’t make it – not sure when they started playing rugby but imagine the early 1900’s. Playa – not sure how many provinical rugby players Queens has produced but surely not up there with Grey Bloem, Paarl BH, Bishops, Paul Roos? Likewise College?
@Grasshopper: One of those bad days. I played against Bishops and Grey Bloem in our year and won. The only game we lost in 2 years was against Queens in 84 and that was 15-13. Missed penalty in the last few minutes will live with us forever. You cant have a top 5 without College.
@Roger: Very flawed top 5 mate.Affies only came about in the mid-90s.
No Maritzburg College?????
No Queens College????
Cant be right!
I think you owe an explanation of how you got to that ranking.
@All Black, then Bishops did beat the great 1987 College team by some margin, how only those there would know. That 1987 College side was immense….
@Roger: Affies only starting really dominating in the last decade or so. College beat Bishops 44-0 in 1985. I think your ranking is very biased to the last few years rather than over a long period of time.
@Grasshopper: very interesting – get someone on it. I reckon Bishops would be number 1? KES only produced their first provincial rugby player in 1939 – don’t forget rugby came late to the old TVL English language schools – KES only started playing in 1932. I agree though – I reckon less than 40 provincial rugby players in 80 years and most of those from 1960 onwards.
Top 5 (ever) SA cricket schools:
DHS
KES
Grey High
Bishops
College
Top 5 (ever) SA Rugby schools:
Paarl BH
Paul Roos
Grey College
Affies
Bishops / Paarl Gim
@Roger, Maritzburg College will be in that top 5 too. If you did a rugby and cricket combo College would be top 5 too, but KES would probably drop out of the top 5 due to the likes of Grey Bloem, Paul Roos, Boishaai and Paarl Gim…..now that would be intersting, stats on the two major codes of South African sport…barring soccer of course…
@HORSEFLY NO.1: @Grasshopper: They will also be doing an article on schools that have produced the most first class cricketers as well. I dont expect it to be any different to to the other lists – KES, DHS, Bishops and Grey High to dominate. I will put my proverbial on a block and state that after this years Coca Cola week – KES will be number 1 on this list!
@Grasshopper:
This is since 1940 though. But yes its pretty good. There are a lot of DHS Old Boys who could currently make it,can’t name them all but the list will definitely continue…
@Horsie, Glenwood doing pretty well there at 13th considering we are a bit younger than many of the schools below them. To be at the same level as PBHS is pretty good. Prenalan Subrayen to be our next Protea….maybe once Robin Pieterson retires, a spin bowler who can bat. Similar to Nicky Boje and Pieterson..
Schools with most SA Schools cricketers here:
http://www.schoolsportsnews.co.za/cricket/schools-with-the-most-sa-schools-caps/
SA’s greatest ever cricketing. School in 4th place 3 cricketers behind. With 4 boys in the KZN U19 team hopefully we can ass at least 1 boy to that list of SA Schools cricketers!!!
GO SCHOOL!!!!!
@GreenBlooded: I hope it rains for 2 weeks after it pops up again, so I have an excuse to be out of the office :sad:
@Gungets Tuft: Cool. Good debate though – some good points from all sides. I doubt it will be long before the topic pops up again on another thread though……..
@GreenBlooded: I hear you. Most of the schools have similar facilities, similar programs for conditioning, similar “internal acadamies”, comparable academics, comparable ethos and histories. So – what differentiates then?
Phrases like “rugby academy”, “extra academic support”, “academy exposure”, sound cheesy on this blog but not so when it has been made abundantly clear that rugby performance is not the only criteria on which you will be judged, that dual standard will not be set up for top sportsmen.
Subject closed – if we can please. Been talked to death, we can discuss this over a juba soon.
Westman leaving for water-polo – I can understand. College doesn’t have a polo coach of Steve’s calibre, for the rest ..??
Let’s leave it. In a year or two there will be an element of normality, or a trend confirmed. One way or another – certainty.
@Greenblooded, I heard they were planning a fly by with the same message but then followed with Sean Erasmus, Trevor Kershaw and Tony Pinherho skydiving in formation down to Dixons landing safely to announce the KZN Schools side….
@GreenBlooded: Or…..be careful that they don’t bring an empty bus to transport all the afrikaans boys back to the vaderland.
I know the Monnas boys will never stay there……they won’t be able to communicate with their teammates then………they can’t speak Xhosa.
@Andre T: Thanks for the offer.
Just a word of warning: Glenwood are having a moerse banner made for Old Boys Day which reads “You Monnas boys have no chance of making a career in rugby unless you move here”. You may want to ge the Monnas people to cancel a few of the busses for the return journey cos hundreds are expected to stay behind.
@GreenBlooded: You can stay with me. Since Affiepa dumped my cleanmother she has had nothing except me when I’m inebriated.
@Andre T: How’s that?
Hey – what are the chances of playing a return match against you next year. Apparently we have a free weekend. Are there any safe places to stay on the West Rand?
@Gungets Tuft: I think one also needs to wonder if it makes sense that a cheesy one liner is all it takes for scores of promising young rugger buggers to want to move to Glenwood or if there is more to it than that. Personally, if Sean Erasumus had to say to me “The only hope for your son to make it as a rugby player is to move to Glenwood” I would probably collapse from laughter induced hypercapnia. If that is what parents are basing their decisions to uproot and move on then they need to be taken down to the local pound and have some sense beaten into them.
Maybe, and I’m just theorising here, Glenwood has heaps to offer rugby-wise and the discerning players are aware of that. And if I was at a school that these guys were moving from it would piss me off big time – to the point of inflating rumours and concocting stories to discredit – human nature, we don’t like tall poppies.
@GreenBlooded: You talk like someone who’s loaded.
@GreenBlooded: Not quite boet. You can never dismiss circumstantial evidence completely. I am not (yet) saying it is like this, but if the same “perpetrator” and the same modus operandi continues year after year, eventually it is going to start quacking like a duck.
Know all about the “fake twitter account” thing but what if the rumours originate from people on the school Governing Body (just saying, sort of for instance ..), then what?. Not a rumour that GW and Westville are not playing next year – call it childish, say that nobody knows who’s decision it was .. but it is reality. All this clandestine going-on behind the scenes, going to end in tears bru.
And it all depends on the prom, and the queen. When all else fails, lower you standards .. :-) .. and put some new mags on the truck ..
@Gungets, OK didn’t expect that sort of response from you. My point is that most of the stuff said on here is hearsay and down the grapevine ‘facts’ so everything should be taken with a pinch of salt.
@Gungets Tuft: An impossible burden of proof yes, but the alternative seems to be a zero burden of proof. All it seems to take is someone to set up a fake twitter account or have heard something from the coach’s cousin’s hairdresser for it to fester into an undisputed fact. I think what is posted on this blog is 90% hearsay which would never stand up in a court of law.
And I’ve got bad news for you – the prom queen never goes for a tow truck driver.
@Anonymous: 100%. These guys have unrealistic expectations of kicking the next world cup winning drop goal and playing 100 tests for SA. At best they should be focused on making the school 1st team, getting a decent matric pass and making some good mates. The reality is that very few will make it after school.
@Anonymous: Gungets or Greenblooded should be telling you this
but anyway here it goes – every team made up of % Gr.12s and % Gr.11s. So 1/600 might be closer to 1/400 to accommodate kids who play 2 years of 1st XV. Just saying. Don’t shoot the messenger. :razz: But I get your point. Unless your school is called Grey College, Paul Roos or Bishops, there is no guarantees that your state of the art school rugby facilities or expert coaches are going to produce a significant Bok conversion ratio. Marcell Coetzee went to Port Natal. Played 22 games of 1st team rugby in 2009 many against 2nd tier KZN teams and 3 years later he’s a Bok.
1springbok every 30years for DHS. Assuming that each team averages 20regular players (taking injuries into account) then that is 1 in every 600 1st team players that “make it” . 1in every 400 currently for glenwood. I’m so glad to see that all the exposure that schools are paying for is paying dividends. Kinda makes you wonder why most of these high school rugby playing gods stop playing after school when there is such a great conversion rate. Especially when the situation engenders a lack of loyalty and the practice of selling oneself to the highest bidder.
@Grasshopper: “If you had video or audio evidence of a Glenwood scout offering then I will believe you..”
Seriously. Hahhahhaa… anything less than that is condoning everything, because when/if it happens there is an impossible burden of proof. There’s the commitment we were talking about. And it doesn’t count if the coaching staff point out a few of lifes little realities ….
I will try and stay out of these arguments in future, I feel like I am trapped in Groundhog Day, unless I get to shag the prom queen on the final day everything in between is just a waste, and I am low on hope about her .. :cool:
@GreenBlooded: Ha ha ha, not quite!
@Horsie, if you read above my response to Gungets. I DO NOT agree with poaching from local schools. However, one needs to be 100% sure that poaching is being done rather than parents looking to better their sons futures and playing the schools off each other OR kids moving genuinely OR any other factor eg don’t like specific teachers, schools ethos, some kids in their class etc. If you had video or audio evidence of a Glenwood scout offering then I will believe you, until then it hearsay based on kids talking, grapevine and probably jealous rivals trying to brew up something…
@Horsie, to be fair BJ is pretty close to retirement and actually a Kloof Old Boy and Alastair was not really bok standard, but that is my opinion. Bresler is far better and maybe Bok standard with one more good season. Glenwood could claim Warren Whiteley and Brian Shabangu as Springbok 7’s, with Warren having played this weekend. Anyway, who cares anyway……you will always have blue blinkers and me green…….love the rivalry and hope it continues for years to come whoever wins…hanging the carrots from the DHS posts and ringing the DHS bell go down as great teenage memories….also beating DHS in 96 when we were written off…..very sweet….
@Grasshopper:
So are you saying that you are for Glenwood using their position in rugby to take from other schools and leave them weaker to bolster your already impressive rugby team?
@Grasshopper:
BJ and Alistair.- Note than im speaking of 2 boks who are playing proffesionally, dont mean for the Bok side!
@GreenBlooded:
I mean i know of at least one guy in every major sport whos been offered THIS YEAR!
@Horsie, define exposure? Exposure to me would mean exposure to selectors and scouts which if you want to make it in rugby as a professional are the two things you look for. Playing the fixtures that DHS do currently will not get you any exposure…….you see there are no hard rule definitions or standards on here so people spin it how they feel…..
Which 2 Boks are those Horsie? DHS in it’s 147 years or so has only produced 5 Springboks, 1 every 30 years on average….
Neville Tod
Andrew Aitken
BJ Botha
Alastair Hargreaves
Garth Williamson
Glenwood is 46 years younger and produced the same. College has produced 14 Boks; EH “Baby” Shum, Wally Clarkson, Bill Payn, Beevee Vanderplank, who was the oldest Springbok at the time of his death, Phil Nel who captained the famous 1937 Springboks, George van Reenen, Keith Oxlee, Ormie Taylor, Andy van der Watt, Joel Stransky, Jeremy Thomson, Pieter Dixon, Butch James and Peter Grant.
Let’s just agree to disagree as that is only obvious considering we support rival schools….
@Grasshopper:
And ‘if you don’t come to Glenwood you will not be picked for KZN schools’ is totally different to what i said. See what i mean, you guys only see what you want to see. Is it a coincidence that what they told the U15 boy from College and what they told some of our u17 boys just about the same thing?
And while you can argue that Glenwood plays better schools and gets more exposure i can also argue that we currently have 2 Springboks playing the game NOW! Surely we must be doing something right? And yes, with recent success Glenwood do get enquiries but thats not the case in point…
@kcob: Let me guess – end of year Christmas party today?
@HORSEFLY NO.1: Please define ‘consistently offered’.
…ha ha Beet, your site just scolded me for posting too quickly! The Glenwood blokes msut see that “Warning” often…
..
…oh, and another…
Just wanted to see a KC jersey amongst all this even in here…no other reason!
@Horse, are we 100% those are the exact words used. This can be spun big time. They could have said because Glenwood plays against top opposition in SA and DHS don’t you will get more exposure, especially to Bulls and other province selectors at big festivals. Also, by being in a winning side your skills might improve and you will look a better player amongst other good players (wasting your talent). A huge difference to ‘if you don’t come to Glenwood you will not be picked for KZN schools’. Remember Sean is one of a few selectors and only the assistant coach, Barend will make the final selection calls…….words can be spun in many ways with completely different meanings……I must add I don’t like this approach but this is probably what the kids parents are thinking. Also, Glenwood will get enquiries from these parents looking to improve their kids chances, no on ever talks about how many approaches Glenwood gets from these parents. I’m sure Glenwood have had to turn down many…there is always two sides to a story..
@Grasshopper:
Nobody has ever claimed that DHS has never offered a Glenwood boy.Just thought i’d make that clear. But I do deny them being consistently offered by DHS which is something that GWD cant promise at the moment.
I think that there are obviously a lot of passionate GWD oldies who don’t wan’t their school to be involved in such a thing and thus go into defence mode. The ways and means that they go to to get what they want is in a way laughable even,but no, let me not bore you with the details…
@Gungets Tuft:
haha funny. What the boy was told is EXACTLY what i was telling Beet that GWD told a few of our U17 players. I had a chance of speaking with DHS 2013 Head Boy whos also the 1st team scrumhalf. He told me of this and at the time none of those players accpeted the moves despite being told “you will never get ANY exposure while at DHS and you should come to GWD” Now with the le Roux thing it seems one of those u17 boys has fallen for this now famous line and sailed ship
@GreenBlooded: It would be nice if you could do that, but there is no way to stop sports bursaries. In their place there will be “financial assistance”, there will be the “Foundation scholarships” such as the Jacques Kallis ones (of which College is currently a recipient).
There are, as you say, lots of legitimate movements – I know of 3 happening in 3rd/4th Form at College this coming year. 2 of them are big losses in their respoective sports – not going to mention names, but I will defend their decisions just as I attack others where the moves have been “encouraged”. So, it does happen, but I think that many here know when the circumstances are less than kosher.
And I agree completely about the standards used to judge, this is not a Glenwood thing, this is a recruitment thing, and anyone that does it need to be taken to task. I know we keep going back to the U15 boy. I was not opposed to his going, just the methods used and the promises made – quite bluntly that “unless you play for Glenwood you have little chance of making a career out of rugby”. That might even be true – all the talk about how coaches and “heads of rugby” can influence selections and placements. Too much smoke for there not to be fire. To my mind the schools that do not start playing the game will come second, they will have moral high ground, but it will still be second. So the question is how do you morally go about the business, that’s the million dollar question …. I have no ready answer to that. Perhaps the honour of running out for the team – like that of Grey Bloem – will be the key to it. Who knows.
@Gungets Tuft: There are a lot of bloggers that need to take a stance – and not only Glenwood supporters. And that stance should apply to ALL schools. The standard applied to judge Glenwood should be the same standard used to judge Northwood, Westville, DHS and all other schools.
I have made my stance clear a few times – going as far as to say there should be laws passed to stop sports bursaries. I have never wavered from this – and I certainly have never said that what is OK for one school is not OK for another.
@Gungets, let’s make it completely clear I do not support recruitment from any local schools by Glenwood or any other school. BUT if a kid and his family want to move for genuine reasons then they have the right to. I don’t know the full details on the teacher movement and following kids, so apologies for making any comment on this. Shades of grey is a pretty badly written book aimed at middle aged single of divorced women, I would never go down that route….my point was each case with Glenwood is different, there are different circumstances with each school….
@Grasshopper: Tsk, tsk , tsk that many understatements in a single post. Remarkable, especially the way you make it sound as if the schools that are having their players “attracted away” or “attained” are just being silly little billies and obviously sub-standard because “Great schools like Monnas, Affies and Grey Bloem” don’t worry about it and just play what is put in front of them.
I think you need to take a stance, make a definitive statement – that you are just fine with Glenwood “attracting” at their traditional rivals in KZN, or you are not. You cannot be half pregnant on this. It is right, or it is not, and we move forward. But the subtle little digs need to stop – and someone with your grasp of the language knows what the intent is. Shades of Grey is a book, it is not an strategy to avoid scrutiny.
@Roger: The PBHS trip costs us R420 per boy. Completely affordable for the experience of a great derby.
@Roger, currently it’s hot air as to be sincerely honest, what do a couple of Old Boy bloggers really know about what is actually happening bar saying I have close sources or the inside track or know the coach etc. Old Boys from both schools will never allow that to happen, especially considering it’s Durban’s oldest derby. I can tell you now that both headmasters would want to avoid that sort of heat from the Old Boys, who in the end are a huge supply of funds and of course kids via their sons etc. Also, the Glenwood headmaster is a DHS Old Boy so completely understands the rivalry etc. All it would take is a signed agreement not to approach each other schools players, but what happens when kids genuinely want to move due to other circumstances……it’s a tough one. DHS claim they don’t approach Glenwood players which we all know is untrue, so it seems Glenwood is the scapegoat once again.
@Grasshopper: I guess schools like Affies, Monnas and Grey are far removed from the KZN shenanigans and don’t really give a toss – as you say, they play what is in front of them. As an interested and neutral observer I will say this, it is a sad day when great school rivalries are tossed aside for whatever reason – surely the headmasters and chairman of the governing bodies could get together and sort it out? I cannot imagine KES and PBHS or Jeppe suddenly stopping all sport against each other? Perish the thought and sincerely hope it never happens.
@Grasshopper: what’s the DHS story? All hot air?
@Roger, the Hilton vs Glenwood fixture was by mutual agreement due to an incident at Hilton. The headmasters agreed on a 5 year cooling off period, that period is no over and the fixture re-installed. The College fixture was never really in doubt, the headmasters just needed to chat about a handful of boys moving to Glenwood due to waterpolo etc. An ex-College coach moved to Glenwood an invited some of the boys to join him. College lost an SA Schools waterpolo player and 2nd team rugby player. They also needed to clear up a move by an Under15 player who didn’t like College’s disciplinary hearing on him. The Westville fixture is a two way thing with ego’s involved, Westville didn’t like Glenwood bringing in an SA Schools prop in grade 11 and Glenwood didn’t like that Westville covered up some over aged kids and had their own auditor to check the ages. It really is unfortunate that all this seems to include Glenwood, but that is the way the cookie has crumbled and we need to take it on the chin. Great schools like Monnas, Affies and Grey Bloem are all happy to play Glenwood and not get bogged down in the weeds of a few individuals moving. They just play what is front of them and get on with it. Maybe it’s because they are used to playing the best week in and week out and Glenwood attaining a few players makes no difference to them……they usually win anyway…
@GreenBlooded:
and essentially you are not reading my whole posts and only what you want to read!
This is obviously going back and forth and is off the topic.
@beet: agreed – College got drubbed at KES last year after some riduculous scheduling. Whoever agreed to them going from Wildeklawer to JHB should have been shot at dawn
@beet: take your word for it – I always thought he was the perfect 12. Big, strong defensivley and a great passer.
@Roger: Thanks.
I have spoken to some folks. It’s not easy for all to cough up that kind of money. A Paul Roos parent told me it was I’m sure he said R8000 this year and the money had to be paid upfront. I also don’t think it’s good to be on long bus road trips that often.
@Roger: No I remember when the Sharks first tried him out at flyhalf in his breakthru to senior rugby season. He made a line-break and it was evident from that early age that he was slow for senior rugby. This is his most limiting factor. He has all the other attributes to be an outstanding player but without those gears he will never be much of an attacking threat. Like England’s performance his break vs NZ was part of the exception rather than a norm
@beet: costs plenty ammo for the school and parents. Two big away trips for hockey and rugby per season is plenty in my opinion. Kes fixtures will look something like this:
St Albans
PBHS x 2
3 @ the KES Festival
College
Westville
Affies
Monnas
Saints
St Johns
Parktown
Jeppe
plus 2 to 3 more. They rarely play more than 16 games per season
@beet: Murray lost form but not Barritt – he was done in to keep geriatric Terblanche happy. H elloked very cumbersome on Sat when he set up Tuialagi’s try – was almost caught from behind by Read (I think) but in his younger days was way quicker – bulked up too much now
@beet: who us – never
it has always been an English Afrikaans thing up here – especially in JHB. Pretoria less so. Louis Luyt tried to strong arm the English schools into playing in the Administrators Cup (now the Beeld Trophy I think) and got told to stuff off – politely 
@Roger: To expand on that Barritt-Murray story. They lost form. The Sharks were not performing. They got replaced by a more successful combo of Steyn-Jacobs. It’s a challenge keeping players happy when they can head to Europe and earn more.
I’m a big Barritt fan but he was never Springbok material. Great defender but painfully slow. Maybe just a notch above Andries Strauss. With Heyneke system at present, Barritt would look fit in the Bok setup because a centre now just has to defend and bash, 2 things Brad could excel at.
@GreenBlooded: anything less than a 20 point winning margin and we head back up the N3 with our tails between our legs
@Roger: “Simple Gautenger”
You guys pioneered the my school won’t play your school scenario
@Roger: I’m not surprised. It’s huge organising and bucks to play these KZN-Gauteng fixtures. I feel for parents who have to fund it.
@Greenwood: I have a theory on Barret and the Shark supporters don’t like it. The reason is Stefan Terblanche – Waylon Murray and Brad Barret were probably the best centre combination in the S15 that year – then to accomodate Terblanche the Sharks moved Frans Steyn to inside centre and benched Barret and broke up the best centre combination going – was very stooopid in my opinion and look what happended. Barret got the fucks in and eent to Saracens and Murray ended up at the Lions
@Roger: Test the waters against College and Westville, see how that goes and then take on the big guns – Glenwood. Cummon – it’s a winner all round??
@GreenBlooded: will Kes be persona non grata at Glenwood for playing Westville in 2013 – he, he! Would love a fixture but I fear it won’t happen in a hurry unless Glenwood make an appearance at the KES festival at some stage. Looks like KES have cut their KZN appearances right back – no longer playing DHS, Northwood or Hilton anymore and only playing Westville and College.
OK Guys ! lets give this one a break for a day or 2
what about the Poms klapping the world champs ?
why is Barret playing for England and not the Sharks/Boks
@Roger: Roger – how is the KES calendar on the weekend we were to play DHS? Keen for a game? We promise your bus will leave with all the kids it arrived with – and we can settle the long standing standoff between you and Hopper for once and for all. Can you tee it up?
You guys can even go and swim at the beach and have a bunny chow or two.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: Essentially you are saying “Poaching is cool when my school benefits but not cool when it is the victim.” You say you don’t like poaching from the other side of the bridge yet you say that DHS has made approaches to Glenwood players.
Dude – make up your mind what it is that you stand for.
hmmmm – too much for this simple Gautenger to take in?? Westville won’t play Glenwood who have only just started playing Hilton again but yet won’t be facing DHS next year and were almost told by College to go jump as well?! Where is Grasshopper – need his views onn all this!
things are much simpler in Jozi methinks?!
@GreenBlooded:
again, i will say that the whole poaching thing MIGHT have been the reason behind it all. OK.
I dont mind recruiting from places where there isnt exposure AT ALL. Northern Natal etc…
However, i do dislike taking from the school on the other side of the bridge just to make sure they never catch up!
And also, theres no such thing as”the kid was offered in grade 7 so has decided to take it up after two years”.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: OK – I think I understand. You approve of poaching players from other schools provided it is not done too often. Can you give us some guidelines as to how much is OK in approaches per year per age group? Oh – and who get’s to set these guidelines?
And is it cool for a school to say “Those guys are better at poaching/recruiting than we are, so we are going to sulk and not play them next year?”
@HORSEFLY NO.1:
oh and Kearsney
@GreenBlooded:
Listen, it is the manner that its done and the consistency of the recruiting that GWD does that makes everyone unhappy. also, im all for a team that buys because they are in a real need for players but not one that was unbeaten in KZN the year before and still buys 5 players! theres a difference there. Plus, do you not think that its getting too much when theres at least a guy in every A rugby side whos been offered by you guys because i do! Highly unnecessary and if it continues in this manner GWD might find itself playing only MHS and Hilton in the next few years!
@GreenBlooded: Maybe for coaching…….I haven’t lost a game since 1983.
@CyndiAtRugby: Why would a mother approach you? Are you on the reqruitment committee?
@Andre T: Groundsman? I hope you will be as good as the last guy – he kept those fields in pristine condition.
Just had a phone call from a 031 205……something number. Hope I’m getting an offer.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: :grin: I was approached by a mother from your school who was very upset that Glenwood hasn’t approached her son yet – damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Quite frankly, I will still like to see fact from friction in terms of genuine to alleged offers. Offers are usually made in writing so this shouldn’t be too difficult to prove.
@Greenwood: I admire Glenwood for staying out of it. There are some that feel Trevor Kershaw should be on this blog answering each and every allegation, juicy gossip and piece of hearsay about Glenwood. Thank God he doesn’t or he wouldn’t have much time to run the school. He does not owe any blogger an explanation for anything. The only people he owes an explanation are his governing body – and when it is the correct thing to do he makes a statement to the parent body such as he did with the Siyabonga Tom issue.
The current issue is nothing but an unconfirmed rumour at present – so what does he have to comment on?
@Ploegskaar: Well said. I also once again remind my fellow bloggers that there are a number of boys who say they have been approached but in actual fact haven’t and know one family in particular, who made a big deal about being approached when the school in question didn’t even know who the kid was.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: You see mate, this is where I have a major problem. You cannot claim a moral position if you are committing the same crime but to a lesser extent. Either you are for poaching of players or you are not. If you are against Glenwood for doing the same thing you do but better then you don’t have much of a leg to stand on. It is the same thing as saying that you are a more upstanding citizen than I am because you murdered 5 people and I murdered 10. And you don’t mind Northwood so much because they murdered 4.
Like I have said – decide what your moral/ethical standards are and stick to them.
Playa & Horsie
We – the bloggers and our mates on Saturdays are big losers too – maybe someone should demand a response from Glenwood – Ok so maybe GWD SBR followers maybe blind to the goings on but too many fingers are being pointed at Macdonald Road …..
@GreenBlooded:
Nope. Glenwood playing DHS at DHS so that cant be anywhere near the reason… Glenwood always play DHS on their old boys day when games are at Glenwood.
@GreenBlooded:
But you see nobody approaches our players as consistently as Glenwood does. I can e-mail you names which you can then check with your GWD officials! Northwood have tried but only a couple of times. And whilst im sure that we have also tried taking from Glenwood i can assure you that its not as many times as Glenwood has!
Pretty frustrating to try and get back to where our rugby was when theres someone trying to push you back down all the time!! Sometimes commom sense needs to be used!!
Sorry, reusing should be refusing.
I doubt, if this is true, that it is due to a one off. Hopefully it can be sorted out but, if not, schools need to take a step back and see what they are doing. If other schools were reusing to play my school I would be asking lots of questions of my schools management to ensure that they were following the right path. At the end of the day you want to know that your kid is going to experiencing the traditions we loved in our day. Obviously things change and decisions need to be made that are the best for the boys, not because there are political/ethical differences between schools. Sort it out people. What message is being sent to our kids? Parents must also wind their necks in and be held accountable for allowing this to happen. Kids are not commodities.
@GreenBlooded: You need to watch the use of the phrase “Old boys”, otherwise you will get stick for that as well. Seems GW is the scapegoat for all that is not well in KXN at the moment, funny how success makes even one’s common enemies unite….
@Andre T: Hey – maybe DHS are pissed off that we are playing Monnas on Old Boys Day and not them?
@GreenBlooded: At the end of the day it looks like GW and Monnas will play each other every Saturday.
A lot of wild assumptions on the go here when we don’t know if or why this is happeneing or not. Strange that bloggers here know about this but GW know nothing?
If it is the case, then I hope it is based on fact and not on hearsay – there could well be legal action taken if the facts which lead to a drastic decision are not well tested. I also hope that DHS will apply it’s principles consistently and also suspend fixtures against other schools who approach their players – like the Northwood approach alluded to by All Black last week on one of their 1st team players. Is DHS considering an embargo on Northwood next year?
As star says above – the GW WV standoff has issues on both sides so unfair to assume that WV have the moral high-ground here. GW have every right to be pissed off with them after the Marne saga.
Seems the hypocrite virus is really prevalent in KXN, as it has indeed been in the rest of SA for ages. Poaching/reqruitement only seems to be a problem for supporters when it affects their schools negatively, while the same sanctimonious twats gleefully rub their paws in private when they are the beneficiaries. In my opinion poaching or reqruitment ensures that the talent in a province is spread evenly and even if it means that all these schools are only competitive at a-team age group levels and 1st team level, so be it, because what’s the use of potential a/1st team players faffing around in lower teams?
So-called powerhouses that concentrate all the talent in the provinces will soon be a thing of the past anyway as players start to realize that you need playing time and visibility to get signed, while playing 5th team and wearing a stupid straw hat while the 1st team plays gets you no-where, nevermind a contract.
@star:
But i do think thatt something is going on. How is it that GWD has had problems with College,WBHS and DHS ??? these schools dont have any problems with each other, only with GWD!!
RE the U16 players lol. i wasnt aware they’d try to get lots of them, was only aware of about 3 or so…
But i totally get why DHS would then stop the fixture. it gets frusrating if they constantly trying to buy from us! i can give names of at least two boys in every A rugby side at DHS whove been offered by Glenwood.
the amount that have been offered from our U14 side, you would swear that they didnt have a good side themselves!
@ Horsy- You are bang on about the derbies-one historical and one based on current strength.Playa is also right in that boys will be deprived of these moments which are core to their SBR experience.The funny thing is that GW might not be as guilty as people think.The issue with Westville was certainly not all one way traffic.This perception has unfortunately been created and needs to be addressed.You must remember that GW only recently started playing Hilton again and the College situation was only saved by some timely intervention.The question must now be asked and the GW collective must answer.They are too important for this not to happen. With regard to the U16s apparently there had been approaches to 5 or 6 of the players and DHS are tired of trying to rebuild only to be torn down. I must add that several captains had been consumed and so the statement must be taken voets toets.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: As things stand, it looks like Glenwood are guilty of underhand tactics of some sort.I would really like to hear an explanation from Glenwood’s point of view.We need a balanced view on this matter.Schoolboys are the real losers in situations like these.
Wonder if anyone else is going to start cancelling on Glenwood in years to come… Could get worse. i think GWD should just stop whatever it is that both DHS and WBHS dont like about them! yes its easy to get someone else to play but it wont be the same. Games vs Westville for Glenwood are always strength-to-strength exciting matches where anyone can win while games vs DHS have that derby feel which is just about irreplaceable!
This is really sad.
@beet:
thats some really sad news! Whatever has caused this must really be stopped and since DHS are the ones who have stopped the fixture i can only assume thats its because of something that Glenwood has done.
@Greenwood: @HORSEFLY NO.1: I have asked one of the most reliable sources available who is connected to DHS. He has confirmed that DHS will not be playing rugby (and other sports) against Glenwood next year. However this is a Governing Body decision by the sounds of it. Whether it has been made official or not is unclear because when I asked an equally trustworthy source at Glenwood for confirmation, he stated that Glenwood knows nothing about it.
@beet:
have you tried asking DHS? if both schools deny then maybe, and i hope, that this rumour is put to bed!
Star , Beet, Horsie
bit confused here – sports fixtures GWD – DHS next year yes or no ?
@HORSEFLY NO.1: This is a difficult one to blog because when I ask Glenwood, they say they are not aware of this
@beet:
and? is the fixture still going on?
@star: Yes got the confirmation this morning. :sad:
@star:
what kind of attempt on the u16s?
Hopefully we get the right guy to head this up. good to hear that School has gotten some quality applications though. Whoever we get must be strong and also makes sure that the school keeps up with its recently very good recruitment of rugga players at u14 level because with Northwood etc getting smart its about to become a sort of a battlefield for a small group of talented players
@ Beet- I presume you have got official confirmation about the rumour in question. Around a campfire on Saturday a DHS parent actually referred to an attempt on the DHS U16 set-up as the main reason for the current bad relations.( Horsy mentioned he thought it was to do with van Zyl).Also I hear that Peter Ducasse has been appointed the new Headmaster of Hilton. His father was Second master when I was there and a true legend.Peter is in the same vein.It also means that the school has had 3 headmasters in the last few years.Like a good rugby side they need to get some consistency in that regard.