Supporting one’s rugby team is a pastime filled emotion when done right. These outbursts are sometimes triggered by decisions made by the man in the middle. The crowd opinion is he either gets it right or he is horribly wrong. Spectators should not be denied the opportunity to discharge these emotions about reffing decisions made but all reasonable folks will all agree on this: there has to be a measure of control, a line that does not get crossed. This is the point beyond which a supporter turns to an abuser and what started out as fun turns ugly. Some schools might try pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes, believing that it does not happen at their establishments but the truth is that although not common to some, incidents of this kind of bad sideline behaviour are not picky about where it chooses to take place. Some of finest schools have had scenes of the worst kind imaginable.
Our school refs deserve a much better deal from the spectators at critical times. It has to be accepted that referees will make mistakes and that their choices are sometimes influenced by the loudest part of the crowd. Evidence has come to light that the average union referee does not have much invested in him in terms of training and financial support, yet is often unfairly expected to perform at the level of a provincial or international official. The latter being a full-time professional with heaps of training under the belt. Lets face with lots at stake school reffing can be a pressure job at times with little reward, so thankfully some people are still willing to volunteer. In so doing they keep our rugby systems flourishing.
Now for the tough question. Does a ref who is on the field with a premeditated agenda deserve to be respected by the supporters of those that are about to become victims of his unfairness?
In as much as it cannot be denied that there are bad apples in just about every school’s support base, we cannot turn a blind-eye to the fact that there are some biased referees out there as well. Acknowledge that some people that wear blinkers and/or cry wolf at just about everything that does not go their way on the field but there are also a good many who see things for what they are and make fair assessments. In these fair assessments, some referees favour particular teams. Granted some officials are worst than others. Irrespective of the level of dishonesty in the approach, it is still unacceptable. Referees are meant to be neutral and blow according to their best knowledge of the laws. Situations now exist where schools and in some cases entire regions are being accused of corrupt refereeing. The downward spiral is something that must be halted and stamped out.
When it comes to reffing, it is not always easy to distinguish between the two but morally there is a clear distinction between making a mistake and deliberately doing the wrong thing. A lot clearer is the distinction between expressing frustration at a reffing decision and abusing a referee. Let’s live in hope that these issues can be properly defined through cooperation by schools and where necessary corrected in the appropriate manner.
@beet & Cyndi: +1
All governing bodies need to take action. And schools too – there was an incident in (Pretoria I think) where a spectator (possibly even an assistant coach) hit a ref last season.
These are terrible.
I just hope that we as individuals do not promote this in any way to our kids, families, peers and teams we interact with.
@beet: I totally agree. Not sure whether it is a rule or tradition, but have always belived that coaches, medics, players, etc should communicate via the captain and the final decision of whether to communicate with the ref lies with the captain??If Boksmart was properly applied, these ‘commentators’ would be well off the field.
During the club IPT tournament and some other games, the coach who yelled the loudest got the decisions in his team’s favour … except for the one team manager who received a very severe warning.
My question – what are we teaching our children when we behave like this?
@Rugger fan: I think the IRB should do more to hold onto this culture that rugby has. There are things that have crept into rugby which are very soccerlike. For example players and touchline strolling assistant coaches should not be allowed to tell the ref what to do. This nonsense of shouting “holding!” or “offsides!” or “penalty!” should be stamped out. Players that overdramatise injuries in the hopes that the ref will produce a yellow card or those guys that dive after kicking ahead in attempts to win penalties should cited for suspension if they succeed in conning the ref.
I saw an incident during the CC season when the ref felt the need to explain his decision to a coach or team medic who angrily questioned the decision from the sideline and then walked off in a huff once he got an answer he disagreed with. Really what should be done is a case like that is reprimand or yellow card the guy on the side. Force him to up his fair play standards instead of trying to influence decisions from his privileged vantage point on the touchline.
As an aside – I travel to Italy a lot for business.
A lot of my colleagues (diehard soccer fans – Juventus/AC Milan etc.) say that in the past 3 or 4 years, rugby has been experieicing a bit of a groundswell among Italian men as a spectator sport.
Mainly because rugby still holds on to many of the true sporting attributes that soccer has lost in recent years in Italy (match fixing, players feigning injuroes for penalties, off the field shennanigans by players, the vast amounts of money the top pl;ayers get, lack of club and national loyalty by top players etc.). They see the XV man game as a far fairer contest and purer sporting code.
They just wish the tests would be played across the country and not just in Rome (as the most rugby is actually played in the north of the country).
@CyndiAtRugby: Yes sad. Unfortunately with such a physical game – if left unchecked it could become unmanagable.
Look at the Kempson incident at the World Seniors in the West indies. An off the ball push by Kempson ended with the US player laying an assault charge and Robbie Kempson ending up in jail. All ended well – and I don’t agree woith what the US player did. But if the authoroity of the ref is undermined, and players start taking the law into their own hands (foul play, verbal abuse, believeing themselves to be bigger than the game) – then unfortunately a lot of the joy of the game will go.
@Rugger fan: There seems to be a culture of yelling at the ref which is quite shocking. I do remember, a ref’s wife who used to buy naartjies and throw the peels at her husband and yell abuse at the ref. It was the highlight of the school games and caused a group of kids to cheer on the poor guy.
@BoishaaiPa: No boys there as you know so follow their home and away games mostly on my own (sometimes with the family at the Farm), so not part of or familiar with the set-up, just there for the rugby. Also try watch at least a few premier B games a year as well, and the odd game at Brug, just there for the love of SBR.
A link to a good article on this issue.
http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/227-is-rugby-becoming-another-soccer-by-jg
Rugby is a game of gentleman – and the fact that the bulk of players call the ref “Sir” – and consider the opposition team as mates after the game – that is what makes this sport special. It still retains some of the amatuer sportsmanship that has made the game.
I agree with the original statement in the article that one of the issues is that the refs generally are not well trained and do not have a lot of resources sent their way.
I have been fortunate to have played and reffed in some pretty outback places in the platteland. I have seen some horrid decisions (and even made a few) – but there have been very few refs that I believe were blatantly biased for the entire game.
As volunteers (as are the coaches by and large at lower “industrial” levels) – I honestly believe that the huge majority of people want to do their best and be fair to themselves and the game.
@Ploegskaar: His sons were both in Boland L and big supporter along with Jan Frylink snr. Those two are always together. Bundy’s younger son was the BL 9 in 2011 (sometimes played 10)..while Frylink was the incumbent No 10….Just thought that as a big BL supporter you should have bumped into them at some time or other. They are big mates of mine.
@GreenBlooded: Hmmm, no problem, old habits die hard, much like the hovering moderator…
English please manne!!
@BoishaaiPa: Nog nooit van gehoor nie, vertel?
@Ploegskaar: Ken jy vir Bundy Molnar…
@All Black:
Christo Wilkinson, why?
@Andre T: Ja jong, self kan ek nie klippe gooi, ek was altyd geweldig onbeskof op die veld en kan my steeds vandag beswaarlik beteuel langs die veld. Ek is beide ‘n swak verloorder en wenner en raak steeds pal betrokke in argumente met opposisie ondersteuners. Bly ek het nie seuns nie!
@Ploegskaar: Pasop dat hy nie gly en bo-op jou val
@Andre T: Still looking for me?
@Ploegskaar: Wat van Oupa?
@Ploegskaar: Posted before finishing! Wanted to say with Kempton and EG Jansen also making the headlines for the wrong reasons, this is a national problem at all levels.
@Andre T: Well, our last match against Oakdale was marred by an ugly incident where Kaplan had to have the opposition coach removed to the pavilion (by the headmaster) after one too many insult. Similarly I was also witness to the incident at DF Malan High when the the ref was punched by an opposition player during an u/16 match after issuing a yellow card. What happens at various club games every Saturday in the WC (especially Boland) has also reached headlines on numerous occasions, and with Kso this is definitely a national problem, at all levels
@beet: Every single school rugby game that has programmes has a spectator code of conduct in it but I doubt whether many have even read it.
During one game this year, a parent went on to the field to slap and player and then tried to punch the ref. The ref asked for the person to be removed from the school by the local police. This happened so quickly that I don’t think half the spectators even realised what had happened.
@GreenBlooded: Haven’t seen him for a while – I think he is still there full time. Makes a big difference to the school, I see him striding around the entrance after school forcing kids to tuck in shortsm do up ties and put on blazers. The outside of the school used to look like a taxi-rank, it is now neat, tidy and orderly.
I notice – I live a 7-iron from there with a downhill lie :-)
@Gungets Tuft: I think he still has some invovlement at Northwood – not sure if he refs there or just organises the refs. Like I said – good bloke. The perp should have had a lot worse than simply bad for life from a rugby club – all rugby matches would have been nice, but I guess it is difficult to make charges stick where there are cops invovled.
Jeepers, you okes make it sound like a game played by hooligans and watched by criminals. What’s wrong in the Last Outpost? Not even the West Rand on Friday night in Luipaard Street is that dangerous. It sounds as if it’s safer to be in Grey than in Durban.
@GreenBlooded: Correct. I was at a braai where he arrived late after having reffed that game. Had a nice swollen jaw and was completely baffled by it. Just could not believe it.
The perp (dad) was a city cop and was banned from the club for life I believe.
@beet: If you watch junior and colts club rugby we get it right – far more so than the schools. Technical areas are enforced for reserves and coaches who are not allowed to parade up and down the touchline. One further improvement I’d like to see at club and schools is that this does not get circumvented by a coach holding a bag of ice and transforming into a medic. Also spectator ropes 3m from touchlines installed and enforced. If you want to see it done right – come and watch some Colts rugby later next year.
Of course this doesn’t stop the abusive parents/spectators on the sideline. As you say, we have the right to stop the game, call the headmaster / teacher in charge and ask that the perp be removed from the premises before the game resumes. Of course we do not like to do this as it draws attention to ourselves and not of the good kind.
@Gungets Tuft: Was that the BG incident? Nice guy and good ref – very unfortunate. Never did find out what happened to the perp?
@Gungets Tuft: I think there should be a greater drive starting at school level to make people understand that this sort of behaviour is totally unacceptable.
A well-respected retired College teacher told me of an occasion when a ref wanted to stop a game because of abuse being hurled at him from the sidelines. The retired teacher went on to say that if you are a ref like he had been in his younger days you have a sort of code of honour which in a way obliges you to finish the game no matter what. At the same I believe that the same, the schools should undertake a pledge to ensure that referees are treated with the same respect and dignity that school officials or parents would want for themselves and their kids. Perhaps SBR refs should be allowed to call a time out during a game and consult with a master on duty from either team about the need to take responsibility for abusive person/s making up part of that school’s support base. It might not always work but I think there are a few adults I’ve seen who would be highly embarrassed if a match had to be temporarily stopped and they were singled out as the culprits for it, especially at lower level games with smaller attendances, where there is no one to hide behind.
Maybe also asking parents to sit or stand in one area instead of walking up and down the touchline following the action, might also help in those lower level games.
@GreenBlooded: A friend of mine who was a ref was assaulted by an U20 players father after a game in Durban. Was angry that hs son was binned for a punch. I think he stopped reffing after that. The mind boggles …
@BoishaaiPa: There is a certain club in Durban where we are encouraged to reverse park and leave the car idling in the car park in case the home team loses
@CyndiAtRugby: I think it stems from the club rugby days where all refs start out..if you want to have a decent drink and your car in working order when you get back to it, you tend to favour the hometeam!..
@GreenBlooded: Supersport had a discussion on reffing the other day. The bean counters have found that regardless of the refs origins, etc they tend to blow more favourably to the home team. This was even found to be true where the ref had affiliation with the opposition team. Not sure whether the study has been published but I think it would be a very interesting read.
@Andre T: Yes, just about!..Played on Sunday and slowly making my comeback after serious neck injury. Only my 3rd round for the year, but it is coming along…Original Paarl layout in any event the better 18.
@BoishaaiPa: Don’t think they’ll be playing the new nine, only the original Paarl lay out. Are you still in shape to walk 18?
@Andre T: The only swing you will get out of me is a golf swing…
@Andre T: I’ll probably walk the Sunday practise match with him and his dad or mom…think only the mom is coming down…show him the ropes around Boschenmeer..I know the course very well!
@BOG: Sal jy omgee as BHP saam ‘swaai’?
@BOG: Jy klink geinteresseerd in die porratjie? Wat van Me Styger? Miskien moet ons bietjie ‘swaai’ ?
@BoishaaiPa: Nope, every day but they do have one rest day….so rather make it 4 then. Foursomes in the morning and singles match play in the afternoon. It’s still gruelling. Practise rounds on Friday and Sunday with the flag raising ceremony Sunday night.
@Andre T: You serious?..36 holes per day?..Is it not just the last day?
@Andre T: Its the ears, fertilized by the Red Heart.Careful, that stuff does not only grow the ears, it makes one delusional- you think that a skelm is a ref. Lisboalina, se jy? Dit klink soos n madam, vanuit die rooiligdistrik van Lissabon. Nou dat ons duidelikheid het oor die ouderdomme, sal ek maar respek moet toon en jou aanspreek as “oom”
@BoishaaiPa: It’s going to be a long week…….36 holes a day for 5 days……40 degrees Paarl heat…….we’ll definately become thirsty.
@Andre T: I thought we are there to watch the golf?..
@HORSEFLY NO.1: Who is the new DHS coach for next year?
@Gungets Tuft:
That is easier said than done.very hard NOT to blame the ref
@BoishaaiPa: You okes looked like Lebs, especially you, very dark complexion and the moustache. Are we gonna have a few Red Hearts?
Its him yes…and I am not the one who hides…remember the Paarl Gym u/16 tournament?..I have a witness in PRP as well…You ducked and dived like a Porra at a Leb wedding!..
@BoishaaiPa: Is that the Steyn kid? My son played with him in the first round of the u/17 Nationals in Pretoria during June. Please don’t hide again when I’m looking for you.
@Andre T: I’ll be there…I see my friends son just made the final cut for the team, he was initially a reserve, but was then drafted into the squad. They are staying with me over the period, so I will probably go and watch.
I played the u/3 world tennis championships at age 2 in 1952 in East London. Clearly at your age you can’t read or remember. Yes, and her name is Lisboalina.
@Andre T: Are you absolutely sure about your age? The other day you told someone here that you were born in 1952 and shortly afterwards went on to play at Selborne Park in some tennis world champs in EL. Just phone Home Affairs and make sure about your age. The mother-in-law of 58- is she the Porra?
@BoishaaiPa: I hope I’ll be seeing you at Boschenmeer from 9-14 Dec. No ducking and diving again and don’t forget to bring me a birthday gift.
@Andre T: December baby..that explains a lot of the behaviour.
@BOG: Let’s get this settled for once and for all now. Was born on 1 Dec 1950, just over 2 years after the Fichardt Shield drubbing, which will make me 62 shortly. I have a girlfriend of 37 and a skoonma of 58. Three boys, aged 15, 16 and 16 and a daughter of 41 and they all have different mothers. Is this clear now?
@Ploegskaar: You mean the distant past. Im not quite ATs age.At 38 you are probably half his age, but Im not quite there. Years ago, I too, was a WP supporter and today, Im still trying to get over the trauma.At US, it was more a matter of survival, than loyalty. But I still wake up with the occasional night mare- thinking that Im wearing a blue and white jersey. My councilor reckons I may die with the trauma.
@BOG: No sir, as a laatie I also saw us win it from ’82-’86, share it in ’89, and as an adult savoured the victory against FS in ’97. I did not go to see the ’00/’01 games, as I was not very interested in senior rugby post Mallet/pre White. I may not have watched rugby as long as you have, but in my 38 years, half your age, I have seen WP win many more games and CC’s than FS, so yes, I enjoy this as much as all our other successes.
@GreenBlooded: 100%. It reminds me of the story I read about Craig Joebert, talking about his father Des who was a Society Ref.
“Once, in charge of a first-division club game at Woodburn Stadium, he had a brush with DHS Old Boys’ former Natal captain Peter Edmunds with the streetwise flank trying to give Des a rough ride.
“Come on, ref, come on, you missed another forward pass. Ref, that’s offside.”
And so the comments flew until eventually Des brought play to a halt and called Edmunds aside.
“Look, I’ve been watching you. You’re a flank but you’ve now missed three tackles, dropped the ball twice and your positional play is shocking. Why don’t you worry about your game and I’ll take care of mine?”
Edmunds did not say another word during the game and after the final whistle he went to the referees’ change room and apologised to Des.
“That the first time I have ever been chirped by a referee,” he told him.
———————-
In short, if you think the ref is doing a terrible job, grab a whistle. If you are not going to try and get yourself fit for a 70 or 80 minute game and put it on the line weekend after weekend, then just sit back and enjoy in silence, with the occasional applause for good play.
http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global%5B_id%5D=70262
@Andre T: I did not watc the cricket, but I thought that the Knights were excluded from SA cricket. And of all places, the Paarl. When, in last week did they plough and irrigate the pitch?@Ploegskaar: I am so happy that this unusual and momentous occasion of winning the CC for the first time this century, brings you so much pleasure.Must be a very strange feeling for you.
Eish guys – we need to get over the notion that refs go into games with pre-conceived ideas. Whilst it may happen on occassion, I like to think it is very very rare.
Understand that most referee’s take their ‘sport’ very seriously and that similar to players they try to do their best to move up the ladder. Deliberatley cheating would not be in his or her best interests in this case. I think we also need to understand that the referee’s who officiate at school level (other than the 1st team refs at tier 1 schools) are rank amateurs who get very little in the way of coaching and assessment. They do so for the love of the game – that’s it. I have reffed Glenwood matches as well as club matches involving my club and can honestly say that once I pull on the referee’s shirt the teams become simply 2 teams of 15 players which I have to manage. Most referee’s in my league would agree.
It is very easy for a crowd to incorrectly assume that a referee is ‘biased’ when in fact he may have simply made a mistake or two. Consider the following 2 scenarios:
Scenario 1:Last minutes of the game, DHS are 4 points behind and win a scrum against the heel close to the goal line. DHS-8 run’s off the back, crosses the line and fumbles the ball. DHS lose by 4.
Scenario 2:Last minutes of the game, DHS are 4 points behind and win a scrum against the heel close to the goal line. DHS-9 feeds 10 who steps his opposite number and crosses the line. Ref calls the pass forward when it clearly wasn’t as he was in a bad position. DHS lose by 4.
What is similar in these 2 scenarios? Both involved a loss by 4 points due to a single human error.
What is different? In scenario 1, the player who knocked forward will be consoled by his team-mates and told ‘Don’t worry mate – it’s a team sport’. Until the fines meeting in the pub later that evening that is where they will sing a song in his honour and force him to down a yard of ale. In scenario 2 the ref will be called a blatant cheat, ‘fokken poephol’ (I was called this by a schoolboy recently), useless doos and every other name under the sun. He will be told never to ref a match again blah blah blah. He will go home and lament his error and wonder if it is all worth it. But he will be back next week for more.
Much easier to criticise refs and shout abuse from the sideline that to get into the middle and do it yourself.
@oldschool: Then Craig Joubert will not be able to blow his traditional annual game at College. Anyone going to accuse him of bias, and as such deprive the boys of the chance of test class reffing?
Any one got comments about when nicholson refs up at Hilton ???
dont think its right that an old boy refs his old school ….
@Andre T: Yes, same as that 42-21 hiding, Andre Tiedt.
@Ploegskaar: You cannot be serious? 10 wickets? Almost as bad as that 2010 CW score between OFS and WP.
@Andre T: Cobras won by 10 wickets, you would have missed the game even if the power failure was only an hour long. Question is, is there a virus in the Bloem water, the same one that GCB and the Cheetas had this year, that’s infected the cricketers as well?
@BOG: Do you have any idea what the score was in yesterday’s Momentum One Day Cup between Knights and Cobras? We had a power failure when the score was 14/3 with the Knights batting first in Paarl.
@BOG: The FS already have two teams participating in OVS (Basically Grey and HTS LB) and the Griffons…plus the Griquas and Griquas CD…huge overkill in OFS and Northern Cape players where those teams are basically made up of 4/5 schools. If you talk quality of players then that is exactly the reason why there should be two WP teams!
@BoishaaiPa: Agree, but CW, clearly, is not just about rugby. And if its justified in the Cape, what about Johannesburg, Pretoria and even the FS? Surely, quality of players over an extended period, should also be considered.And that wont happen- so live with the one team.
@BOG: What I am saying is that if those teams can justify a CW team surely, WP with 4 times as many schools can justify 2 teams as well? It is all about exposure and to get enough youngsters to show their skills…in comparison only a very small percentage of WP players get to play CW while a much lager % in other regions get the chance…and this is to detrement of youth rugby!
@BOG: Nothing compared to that period ’77 – ’04 when the FS could not win a CC…
@Ploegskaar: Indeed, a historic moment, the first in 11 years!!
@The Beast: Yes, the CW/PRG team did underperform, but last I checked Province did very well at the u/13, Grant Khomo and Academy Week’s (and u/19 and u/21 level for that matter). Collectively therefore a very good year at junior (and senior) level for the Privince boys, won’t you say?
@BoishaaiPa: Perhaps the absence of Red Heart,the w/e, but I dont get your question.I am not advocating an additional team from the FS, but using it as a reason why the Cape region should not get an xtra team. Looking at it differently, if that region gets the xtra team, then for the same reasons, FS, Pretoria and Johannesburg, could insist on the same treatment. And let us not avoid truth- several of the CD and Namibia and Zim teams are present for reasons other than rugby.
Just like the WP were thumped this last year.
@BOG: Please explain the existence of teams like Griquas CD teams consisting of two schools and EP CD teams that get thumped most of the time at CW…
@BOG: Hoped that my comment would get your blood pumping, you or Yvonne can thank me later…
@BOG: the running of Boland in relation to WP then.
@Ploegskaar: What you are saying, is that FS has not performed at CW. Facts say something else. What it does say, is that when Grey is “weak”, then FS is weak as well.This year has proven that yet again. The provincial boundaries are not ideal, but what I am saying, WP/Winelands/Boland is no exception. They cannot expect preferential treatment. Deal with it.@beet: Its not just the Boland which is run badly- almost the whole country under SARU,is.
@BoishaaiPa: The U15s won 1 out of 3 games there. It was definitely not their finest moment
I stand to be corrected but I do not recall the Glenwood team remaining consistent in terms of player for more than maybe two games in the season and that was not due to injury. I’m looking forward to seeing what happens to them next year.
The B team in this age group lost 1 game (College at College where the game was shortened) and drew against Affies.
@beet: Agreed, something is better than nothing. With regards to the SS schools, it was not too long a ago that Bishops with a certain Swiel at the helm made a monkey of both BL and Paarl Gim, and looking at the SS age group results this season, I am sure they will bounce back. BL in fact also had a fairly poor 2011 by their standards, but came good this season, although they did have opportunities to make it a memorable one (they were only really outplayed by Paarl Gim and Boishaai). With 2 key players back next season, it will be interesting to see if they can maintain their 2012 standard.
@BOG: I think the Boland RU is the reason why the Paarl and Stellies schools prefer the WPRU. Badly organised plus pressure on the schools to play more other Boland schools. Certainly it has come up numerous times that the region’s huge talent pool deserves to be recognised in the form of a 3rd CW representative team. The system affords Namibia and Zimbabwe the opportunity to be represented at CW yet denies the equal opportunity to W/Cape kids that are of SA nationality and have more rugby talent overall. Does not make sense.
@Ploegskaar: You have to go with something. At least the formula driven system beats the thumb-suck version used elsewhere.
On the brighter side, the same formula shows that Boland Landbou have been very consistent, placing in the Top 20 for 2009-2012, which is more than can be said of the CT suburb schools.
@BOG: Of late I would actually go as far as to say we need 3 teams in the CW, with one from Stellenbosch (which oddly has been providing most of the CW players anyway), one from the Paarl region and one from the CT northern and southern suburbs. With regards to the FS, I am not familiar with the setup in the hinterland of South Africa, but it does seem that, especially after this season at junior and senior level, boys from other schools should get a fairer opportunity to represent the FS CW team, as clearly for too long being a GCB player as opposed to talent has been the selection criteria.
@beet: Hmmm, I am familiar with his “analysis”, which places Wynberg above Landbou. Not only did Landbou thump them 30-12 away this season, but the “weaker” Cape Town schools (this season anyway) played each other twice as is the custom.
@Ploegskaar: @Grasshopper: If two sides are justified in the WP/Winelands region, then the same arguments can be used for other regions as well-not only, but including the FS. Years back, there was talk of GCB sending a team and then another team, consisting of players from all the other schools.From a purely rugby point of view, such a decision could be justified because the latter side would certainly be stronger than several of the teams currently participating at CW. This applies to other areas as well. A simple solution in the Cape would be for the Paarl schools to be incorporated into Boland, as indeed they were for a few seasons, but then other considerations, including ego,becomes a problem. So, as in other regions, they just need to deal with it.CW has not only been about rugby for some time now and thats reality.And most, privately at least, recognize that.
@Ploegskaar: We have some of BHP’s regional analysis for the 2012 season here (or click on the STATS folder at the top of the page to find it)
http://schoolboyrugby.co.za/blog/?p=1124
@Ploegskaar, thanks boet. I am now living in Cape Town so looking forward to watching some good schools rugga here and in the winelands..
@Grasshopper: The need for 2 CW sides for the WP region is long overdue, but it has to be said that the Cape Town schools had a particularly bad 2012 season, hence the lack of CW players this year. BHP may be able to assist, but as far as I know they did not manage one win against the Winelands schools, with Wynberg’s 10-14 loss against Paarl Gim coming the closest. Sure they will be better next year though.
@Beet, I think the likes of College, Glenwood and Westville would do pretty well against the Cape Town 4 (Bishops, Rondebosch, SACS and Wynberg). When Kirkham came over they beat SACS but lost heavily to Glenwood. I know you can’t make direct comparisons but it would interesting to see how their A sides coped against the Paarl schools and then compare. Yes, plenty of depth in WP, but it should be split into two regions for Craven Week, maybe into Cape Town and Districts and then Winelands. Wynberg had a strong 2012 but did not have one player in the Craven Week side….madness!
@beet:
THats true but the cream of the crop(U13 CW,U16 GK,U18 CW) are not as good as the cream of WP or the Bulls which is also why KZN schools are behind. This you can see by the age group tournaments at the u13,16 and u18 level. Whens the last time any of the kzn teams ‘won’ these? But yes there are SOME really good players coming through no doubt. But then again I’m sure all of us here would love to see our schools higher up on the various rugby lists.also,W/cape schools don’t have as much competition for players as in KZN.when most schools didn’t really recruit here in kzn and GW were the only oned serious about it they were hovering around the top 5 in the country.now, everyones woken up and is fighting for players hence Glenwood dropping a bit and thebest places KZN school usually 11th or 12th these days.trust me, more and more KZN schools will start looking outside KZN for rugga talent,won’t be just GW and DHS…
@HORSEFLY NO.1: Looking beyond the Paarl Gyms, Boishaais & Paul Roos’, how do our KZN age-group teams shape up against the likes of Bishops, Rondebosch, Wynberg, Boland Landbou & SACS, not forgetting Oakdale, Outeniqua & Drostdy? W/Cape has much depth. Even if our top KZN schools are ranking 4th, 5th, 6th behind their Big 3 from the N/Suburbs, I’m inclined to believe that our SBR is still in a good place. Even so the ballgame changes after school. KZN as a whole contributes a fair number of players to junior provincial rugby. There might not be good depth but some seriously good players are coming through nevertheless.
@Grasshopper:
Very hard for KZN teams to be up there like Grey and Affies who regularly get 30 plus U13 Craven Week players going there. In KZN the school that gets the most U13 CW players is Glenwood and even they only get at most 10 so very difficult for us as kzn schools to keep up at U14 and U15 levels.
I do think the College u16 side could have beaten those sides had they been at Paarl though…
@Boishaaipa, I would say the Glenwood Under15’s are top in KZN but the Under 16’s are about 3rd after Westville and College who are on a par. Glenwood results at Paarl;
Under16A’s
Affies 24-17 W
Paul Roos 10-33 L
Paarl Gim 7-31 L
They also played Boishaai losing 5-31. It seems we are 25 points away from the Paarl schools, which is not bad considering 20 years ago that would have been 60 or 70 points.
Under15A’s
Boland Landbou 8-18 L
Oakdale 7-20 L
Brackenfell 38-0 W
They also played Monnas losing 0-17 and Affies losing 5-43 in Pretoria in a very bad day out. They won all their fixtures against KZN opposition.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: Or possibly it is decisions that go against you are that much more memorable?
It did not bother me nearly as much when the Boks had 9 penalties to 2 this week as last weekend when Ireland had the same count against the Boks. It is amazing how seldom the winners complain about the ref.
It’s tough to be impartial.
@BoishaaiPa:
Haha.yes their U15s do but their U16 are only 3rd in KZN mate. College have that title being unbeaten for two and a half years.but yes,KZN teams are a bit behind it seems , think it has to do with the competition from other kzn schools to get what is a very limited source of players.
Seems like GW u/15 & U/16 teams sets the benchmark in KZN. What was their results at the 2 Paarl age group tournaments?
@Anonymous:
Yeah well they can always say they were the better team against a side that boasted 8 KZN players on Dixons hey? But yah it was quite sad indeed,don’t think a 1st XV win is on the cards next year, just a gut feel
We can only hope so horsefly. I do feel more sorry for the u16’s its the last time they’ll play together as an age group unfortunately they were robbed by a decision which didn’t go their way. Who knows maybe like the u14’s the guys going into open next year will have something to prove against GW. Maybe a 1st XV win?
@Anonymous:
Didn’t really notice him much then, but then again you tend to notice a ref that denied two clear tries more than you notice one that didn’t call a mark don’t you?
@GreenBlooded:
It wasn’t just that that annoyed me but also his handling of general play and his obvious mistrusting of his AFs was also very frustrating. His decision making in the end put down a scoreline that will always remain as a 10-3 loss to the side,their only of the season.I do have to state though that I am now a bit happy with the loss as they willve learnt a lot more from it then they wouldve in the victory.they will also have something to prove vs GW next year and will be hoping to have an unbeaten season next year which are both things they didn’t get this year and should galvanize them to have a better season next year. We could POSSIBLY have 2 unbeaten A sides next year
@GreenBlooded: Oops – my bad Didn’t read properly
I see very little is being said about the PMB refs???
@horsefly
I stand to be corrected but the ref of the u14 game was the same man who reffed the college u14 game i seem to remember a mark decision going DHS’s way near the end. I guess you win some you lose some.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: That’s a very harsh thing to say. If every ref ‘never reffed a game again’ every time he blew a poor game there would be no refs. Not sure who the guy is or what he did to annoy you but I’m sure it was not pre-meditated. The guys at that level (me included) get very little in the way of coaching and continuous assessment – nowhere near what an U14A team at a major school gets. It needs to be seen in perspective.
@GreenBlooded:
there was an obstruction and a knock on that led to the Glenwood try by M.Joubert in the u16A game. serious blunder by him, i think that at the time the score was 12-7 to DHS with not much time left…
also, do you know what happened to the guy who reffed the U14 game between the 2 schools? he should never ref a game again, not even under 9
He made a blunder as the AR in the first team match (televised) – called a ball out that was about 5m in field. Copped some serious (friendly)abuse at the society meeting the following week to wit: had to read the entire law book paragraph which defines when the ball is in-touch.
Have never heard of any controversial call he made in the U16A match so can only put it down to losers remorse.
@ Horsy : Blose also reffed the Westville/Glenwood 16 A game. He was ok, except for his one decisions, where he called 5 minutes left. The longest 5 minutes I’v ever felt in my life. The game went on 4 another 15/20 minutes. Glenwood almost scored a try which would’ve led to them winning
@CyndiAtRugby: We are talking about the U16A match Cyndi.
The advantage of having all the photos
@GreenBlooded: @HORSEFLY NO.1:
Balose did not ref either Glenwood televised games this year. He was assistance in one.
@GreenBlooded:
Yes, him. His reffing was OK but the one very bad decision he made made his whole performance seem quite bad.that try led to a Glenwood victory wasn’t suppsed to be awarded …
@PaulRoosPa: Do you also know this “ref” that BHP is talking about?She seems quite popular among the Capies! Look what a good player Kitshoff has turned out to be after the lesson in discipline in Bloem in 2010. How is your secret weapon, QI ?
@HORSEFLY NO.1: The U16A game this year was reffed by Nhlanhla Blose if I remember correctly – the big black guy who looks like Beast. He did OK as I recall???? That was the game at Glenwood where the 1st team match was televised no?
@gungets tuft
That ref sounds a bit like the guy who reffed the DHS vs Glenwood U14A game and also like the guy who reffed the U16A game between the two schools.those two were the two worst performances by a ref I have ever seen in SBR. Worse is that it happened on the same day! As I was recovering from the schocking decisions in the u14 game I went into a sort of a relapse as the. Same thing happened in the u16 game.
I don’t normally judge refs, but a school who I normally judge on their refs is KES. Has 1 of the most biased/poor refs around. The bad decisions made by them are shoking
@BOG: I am with BoishaaiPa on this, the less we say the better….
@BoishaaiPa: No, no! Even knowing the name of an U15 ref,raises more questions than answers. It sounds more like the name of a skelm than a ref. What was the colour of her eyes?
@Haker: Thrilled to hear that the Boishaai boys are well behaved – 2 of my nephews are old boys there and if we were to ever move down that side, its where my son would go.
I’m amused at this same son who had a stint reffing U7 rugby and suddenly has a lot more empathy for refs. I do, however, agree that a bad ref is one thing (and should be dealt with by the union) but a biased ref is nauseating.
@BOG: You havent watched rugby in Bloem for a while it seems…her name is Marelize Jordaan ..I believe an old aquintance of Helgardt
@BoishaaiPa: @BoishaaiPa: Your problem, it seems, is optical illusion.Have you since, acquired spectacles to rectify your problem? A lady ref in the FS? Your eyes really must have deceived you. I hope that you did not drive back to Paarl in that condition!
@BOG: :grin: Yes, speechless indeed!..I recall last year in Bloem in the u/15A game a certain well known lady ref was officiating the game..As I was walking back from the Cricket Oval towards the “Dek”, I was right alongside the ingoal area when the Grey wing ran in for a try…he lost the ball while crossing the tryline..it bounced once forward and then he dived on it..Try given!
..lol..We lost by less than 5 points!…My great mate from Grey who was sitting on the Deck at the time asked me what happend because he was sure the wing lost the ball…and his eyesight is probably about on par with yours!..This is more an example of poor reffing than biased reffing in my opinion..but one never knows!
@QC86: Perhaps you were the bloke apologizing.(lol) As I pointed out, I certainly dont blame Selborne- I know the setup on the Bordarrr!@BoishaaiPa: I know that their high levels of competence and professionalism in the FS, normally leaves the visitors, especially those from the Cape and the EP, speechless.
@BOG: i watched that game,very sad,and once again sorry, and there have been many more since.Selborne College refs are appointed by Border rugby union and at the junior school they are teachers,except for the u13a game which again is appointed by border RU
@BOG: I think the less being said of Bloem refs the better…
@BOG: The toughest thing about playing Selborne in East London is beating the ref…
@QC86: @QC86: I saw that in practice in 2007 when I watched Selborne against Grey, the second teams.I certainly dont blame Selborne-it was a Border ref and the Selborne supporter next to me, was apologizing profusely. It was the yr that Grey had a very strong team and the firsts won 68-0, but I think, the Cherries was on the day, the only Grey side to loose. Each time, without exception, when the Cherries got into the 22 of Selborne, they were penalised. The one good thing that came out of that, was their impeccable behaviour and response to such obvious bias.
on the Border we apoligise to our opponents before the game starts,fortunatly our out of town visitors only have to suffer our refs once every two years,were as we suffer every weekend
With the basic inherent integrity of Free State people, no such problems exist there. Generally I dont believe in criticizing refs, QI being the exception. He is unquestionably the secret weapon employed in the Western Cape against visitors.
@BoishaaiPa: Agreed, and want to make it clear that apart from two bias refs and one poor ref (that’s 3/22 games) the standard was very good both home and away (and that includes losses away to Paul Roos and Gim).
@Ploegskaar: I think we must distinguish between a poor ref and a biased ref. a Poor ref I can still handle because he will make mistakes going both ways and it is part and parcle of the game…a biased ref is just plain skelm and can cause major problems on and off the field!
There is a ref that regulalry blows at College that we know starts College with a 12 points deficit. I am sure All Black would know who he is – I pay no never mind. The way I see it the refe still knows more than me, is closer to the game, and should have no interest in cheating.
That said – there is a ref at Wynberg who refs U13 games that is diabolical. It is well known that the Wyngerg junior team never loses. I think the DPHS Dream Team managed to beat them but simply scoring faultless tries by running through them. If you try and scrum or maul them close to the line you have no price. Might even be their Director of Sport.
@BoishaaiPa: Well, I have seen the same guy blow 2 poor matches at SBR level this year and he was rewarded with a few 1st Div. CC games if I recall correctly. I do not think he is bias, I just think he is poor.
@Haker: It’s still a mystery to me that Mr Bateman is the new headmaster at Gim. I wouldn’t say KHS went from strengh to strengh rugby wise and is way behind Wesvalia academically……opposite direction actually and his handling of the Andre Esterhuizen incident also a bit shaky.
Have to mention that I can’t recall any problems ever against Boishaai. Certainly our favourite fixture of the year. Decent children and parents. Nightmare games are against Paarl Gym, for reasons other than referees. Don’t know if the new headmaster will introduce mass discipline.
Never experienced a problem with ref’s op die Plaas at 1st team level. In the last 5 or 6 years of all the games played in Boland and WP, I can actually only recall 2 blatant instances of biased refereeing where Boishaai was involved and it was mostly at 2nd team and age group levels. We did not experience what other teams complained of at Trappespark, Oakdale or Outeniqua..maybe because they usually get a fair deal when playing at Brugstreet?
@PaulRoosPa: Agreed, the lower teams are where the fun and games really happen. Understand your point on refs from other provinces interpreting the laws differently as well, but when they do seem to have a completely different rulebook just on the other side of the Hugenote Tunnel, I am concerned…
@Ploegskaar: Teams in WP use the same refs for 1st team games. The problems start when you leave your province, maybe the refs in other provinces interpret the rules differently? The lower teams are where the major issues occur!
@Andre T: Like I said, I am very surprised by the comment and have only had positive feedback from our fiercest rivals over the years. This year we were very fortunate that Kaplan officiated in quite a few games (I rate him anyway) and in one of the games, against SACS, the first scrum was only awarded after 30 minutes! That’s application of the advantage law and SBR at its best. Having said that, we were also unfortunate enough to have Quintin Gimmelman ref the game against Rondebosch and I seriously thought he was going to end up 6 feet under the Alfons field until, with 10 minutes to go, he suddenly remembered and blew the laws of the game.
@Ploegskaar I never knew that Die Plaas was also a suspicious venue. From what I’ve read on 365 is that Oakdale and Outeniqua were a bit shaky places with hometown refs.
@Ploegskaar: Let’s leave it at that as I’m sure there will be a lot of referee discussions next season specially after Grey PE,Oakdale and BL games home and away. They always seem to be the major complainers when referee calls were in doubt. But let’s rather discuss more interesting things than referees although I’ve been to many a games at the schools mentioned above where most calls always went to the home team.
@Haker: I would rather that we do not discuss the state of refereeing in SBR too much, becuase if you get me started about the general quality of refereeing experienced in the SWD region and the Boland (Drostdy comes to mind) over the years, I will not cover myself in glory. Fact is that your home patch should be a fortress, as the Farm has been over the years, and I would like to think the quality of Landbou players, the big packs of forwards over the years and the passionate crowd (especially the chanting Landbou boys in the pavilion) always makes it a though outing for the opposition. Yours is in fact the first complaint of this nature that I have heard in a while, apart from sour Oakdale grapes, but maybe BoishaaiPa, PaarlBok and PaulRoosPa can assist with their objective opinions on how they have experienced games on the Farm over the years.
@Ploegskaar: It has been a lifelong struggle to beat Oakdale and Landbou away for any team. I have a lot of respect for those 2 schools but it always seems as if the referees share that same sentiment. It’s almost like in boxing where a overseas opponent needs to knockout the SA boxer just to get a points decision.