The Sunday Times article of 19 October 2014 entitled “School rugby in crisis as hulks loom over lads” had a subheading: “Allegations that team is using an over-aged boy” which refers to a Glenwood 1st XV rugby player of 2014.
The name of the player being accused of being over-aged is known to the Sunday Times and the national paper is also in possession of a team photo of the KwaZulu-Natal Midlands B-team’s under-13 division, that the player is believed to have represented as an under-13 in 2006.
According to the newspaper the Glenwood headmaster Trevor Kershaw is on record as stating that the player is 19 and that his birth certificate has been checked.
However it’s not an uncommon practice in South Africa for a parent/guardian to apply for a birth certificate when a child is much older, making those kinds of birth certificates far less reliable as indicators of true age.
A recent IOL News article entitled “Strict screening for late birth IDs”(link), mentions the fraud being committed as a result of late registrations:
“After December next year, parents whose children are still without birth certificates 30 days after their birth will have to go through an “agonising” screening process to establish the veracity of their babies’ identities before being issued with the documents”.
In 2012 a major age audit was conducted at KZN’s leading rugby high schools. Players from the under-16 up to under-19 ages were included in the age vetting process which uncovered several age cheats. The player now in question should have been part of that 2012 audit and if he was, it means an expert cleared him to continue playing in the under-16 age group back then. This in turn poses the question of what more Glenwood or any other school in their position could possibly have done to verify the player’s age.
Although an experienced primary school coach dismissed it as improbable in the Sunday Times, it is also possible that the accused player was 11 when he represented the u13 team in 2006, which means there is a chance he is still only 19 and not over-aged for school rugby.
Cyril-John quality as always, really chuffed for the boys on Friday. It was a special win. I was fortunate enough to be a part of that huddle after the game. You could see how much it meant to the boys. So happy Warrick got to be a part of this
@CHS08: Next time come and say hi. Tian ended off the season 5kg’s lighter than he started in March. He had a wrist injury so could not gym through the season. They all busy working hard now in off season but he is still 3kg’s short of his weight he needs to be. The coach don’t want the backs to bulk too much and them possibly loosing some speed. Some of the forwards looking in good shape. Morgan’s groin is fine. Getting his cast removed from his arm on Friday.
@QC 86: He will recover and get back to his best. Good to see Grant walking again. I see him, Michael and Tiaan have lost of their size. They need to bulk up. We need Selbone to do well next year its the dream team mos! You know u need size to compete with this Afrikaans schools nationally. How is Morgan’s groin ?
@CHS08: Thanx ,Warrick has not been himself since he hurt his knee 3 weeks ago,so this break will be good for him and much needed.
@QC 86: I will come greet next time. I had a very good evening last night. CJ is an outstanding rugby player. Warrick did well. Selvyn Davids is pure entertainment. I could watch that boy play rugby all day.
@CHS08: Just big teddy bears boet,i would have enjoyed a chat.EP Kings were on fire hey! Ludz’s man CJ was out of this world.Spoke to Warrick after the game and he said Border came at them hard,but good win for EP 64-9.
I saw GCollege 86 and Q.C 86 at the Border Rugby Stadium. Got to intimidated to greet them. They looked so serious.
@Gungets Tuft: Sorry GT, I’ve been out and about most of today. I will get it.
Playa – M’lungu –
Same as Garsies but this “lightie” was almost as big as some of those
Garsies guys
Beet -TV broadcast of very poor quality – only the Premier Interschools
matches are of quality
@Greenwood:
Not to stir or anything, but was this Gwd boy of the same skin colour as the Garsies monsters? I ask because as Mr Burger correctl pointed out, this can be the case where the boy is slightly dark in complexion
@Gungets Tuft: I was being facetious. I saw you point clearly
@Greenwood: I surprised your visitors didn’t ask if that game was from the early 70’s. The visual quality was very poor.
2 things I remember this year – relevant to this subject
watched Garsies playing on telly earlier this years (think they were playing Menlo Park -not sure though ) Visitors arrived at my home , sat down & watched the game & after 5 minutes they asked whether this was a super 15 game
They were shocked when they were told this was a Schoolboy game – The Garsies boys were huge – probably the biggest , bulkiest SBR team I have ever seen – but not once did I think they were over aged – no wonder Affies came up with an excuse not to play them (maybe the screaming Garsies girls in the stands may have put them off !!!)
Also Watched Gwd U15a beat DHS – this year – Gwd had a huge
backline player way bigger than any player on the field – broke the line like a hot knife thru butter – I asked a deputy head from Gwd near me if her was kosher – the answer was affirmative – my point being my suspicious thoughts about his age … just saying
@Playa: @GreenBlooded: You guys are missing my point – which I made badly.
All these documents can be forged or bought illegally. What the Accumulated record will do is state the details, from date of first admission to school, grades, pass/fail, move to high school etc. It’s a linear dated record. An investigator or reporter can then, if the mood takes them (because there are gap years, or a kid suddenly playing U13 rugby at age 9), track the schools down and check. Glenwood are saying that they are happy with the trail, but refusing to release that detail, and then claiming no-foul based on that. The golden thread here is 2006. Just one hurdle. Run Forrest Run .. and jump just that one and it’s done.
Ou Greenblooded – go back and read my Rastus and Lisa story – sometimes you have to “haal uit en wys”, even if just enough to win the competition
And listen up … don’t you touch me on my tow-truck. We towers have feelings too bru, cut me and I bleed. Towing is harder than you think .. deciding which saaid to lift, and when to dolly and stuff. Very taxing …
@GreenBlooded: I suggested that Glenwood get hold of 2006 records that show he was under 11 at the time. You said that is not Glenwood’s responsibility, but that of the accusers. I agreed that the responsibility may fall with the accusers, but even more so with Glenwood, as it is their reputation on the line.
@Gungets Tuft: Jeez – what happened along the way? All those accolades and you wound up a tow truck driver??
But seriously – if this record card is that easy to fabricate then I guess ou Umbiloburger needn’t bother trying to get hold of it?
@Playa:
Huh?? Nothing logic about it. The burden of proof rests with the accuser – forget age-old legal principles if we aren’t talking about a court of law. It’s been said on this forum many times. But let’s see how Glenwood would go about proving his innocence anyway:
1. Birth certificate? No – that can be forged.
2. ID Book? No – that can be bought for R800.
3. Passport? Say no more – not even the Poms allow us onto Mud Island on a visa-less Green Mamba anymore.
4. DOE Record Card? Nope – can be easily fabricated.
Doesn’t seem like Glenwood can win here……….
@Gungets Tuft: You are missing Greenblooded’s logic here. According to him, it is the responsibility of the accusers to both prove his guilt and innocence. You’re gonna end up like Playa and blog to yourself at this rate
@GreenBlooded: Then it is Open Sesame I am afraid. Do what you like, refuse to reveal detail when confronted. I will show you the Accumulated record I have just done for myself which has me matriculating at College in 2010 with 11 distinctions, after attending Ixopo Primary and being Dux as well as head prefect and sportsman of to year. Without an independent audit of it, it’s good enough for me.
Your theory would be fine if there was a criminal charge laid and subpoenas obtained for the records. In your example of criminal proceedings things are forced into the open, that option is not available, so whether we like it or not Glenwoods word is not going to allay suspicion
@GreenBlooded: I seem to remember when the boy with the rolled ankle( which was an actual injury) ended up in the Sharks U19 set-up there was an outcry from the detractors that that proves nothing. I find it strange that this is now being used by some as mitigation . A further question is raised in the event that he is actually 21 about the credibility of the testing by the” independent” auditor. ( The results of which to my knowledge have never been released which further detracts from the transparency of the process). Maybe ” in house” in this case was more thorough
@GreenBlooded:
@Playa: Not really the same thing. But no, I wouldn’t because the story would have been written by professional journalists who had thoroughly researched the facts. We are talking about reputable Sunday newspapers here – not gossip rags. Plus – I could get in my car and take a drive and see for myself…..if all the president’s men would allow me access on the nice tar road that I paid for……
@GreenBlooded: If the Sunday papers had a headline saying “Zuma Builds R250m Compound in KwaNongoma” would you say “Show me”?
@Anti Green: Playa likes to play with himself sometimes
@star: Ja – I’m not sure. I know my lighty went to U12 trials (PADSSA), didn’t make it and not even sure if the team picked ever played anyone. 2006 was a long time ago. I’m not sure what happened back then – my lighty would have been 7 so representitive rugger was the furtherest thing from my mind. It’s not out of the realms of possibility though for a talented U11 kid to make a regional B team even if it was U13 (Boksmart age banding wasn’t invented yet!). What were the quota requirements back then? My overriding feeling with this whole thign is that yes, there are some suspicious signs, but the age audit after the ST issue cleared him and no Jack-Russell type media hack has published anything yet despite this story being months in the making. Just tells me that the facts don’t support the rumour.
@Gungets Tuft:
Don’t mean to get all Barry Roux on you here – but one only needs a get out of jail free card once one is found guilty! I don’t believe the state has proved it’s case M’Lady.
What seems to have happened here, and it might just be me, is that an allegation has been made by a person of unknown identity and credibility sitting next to a rugby field watching a club match. Because Glenwood is involved it is immediately assumed that they are guilty and need to defend themselves. That’s not really how it should work. If someone accused Maritzburg College, for example, of fielding an overage player, the simple response would be like they say in Missouri: “Show Me”.
@ Playa@ GB- allow me to be a bit more specific.
In 2009 my son played u12 PADSA( with the likes of Staples). There was no B team which would mean that the other regions would be the same( who would they play against) . Whether that was different 3 years before, I cannot say for sure but the good money would suggest not. Anyway this is a slight distraction until the full picture comes out.
@umbiloburger: Any luck on the Accumulated Record. As I see it all that will be needed is the third section on the front page which deal with “admission number”, “name of school”, “admission date and grade”, “departure date and grade”.
For extra marks a scan of the second section, ID Number, date if birth, age on initial entry to school.
Genuine “get out of jail free” card.
@Playa: You okay? Blogging yourself
@GreenBlooded: I walked past the pool on Tuesday and he was their. I will check.
@Playa: My mistake. Just realised that I said ‘midlands’ and not PADSA in my original post.
@GreenBlooded: No sir you misread. Copy and paste of what Star said:
“@ Greenblooded- my son also played PADSA U12 but my recollection was that they did not have a B team. ( therefore the above regional photo is for U13 participation). ”
Well one of us is reading the above incorrectly.
As for your second paragraph…100%. That and those documents from back then will end this fiasco once and for all.
@Gungets Tuft: Yep, I am aware as I did both. Hated swimming by the age of 15 as they burnt me out with laps at 6am. Waterpolo was much more fun, although almost lost my gonads a few times….for a swim off a quick sprinter is pretty handy. The fastest swim off guy I ever saw was Matt Bowman, he was so quick the other schools didn’t even try…
My big question for Glenwood, is why they can’t just do what they do in other sports for rugby, purchase as much as they wish at grade 8 level and then leave it there? They are building a great swimming squad that I think by 2016 could knock Westville off their swimming perch. Buy 45 provincial rugby players in grade 8, fine but STOP there. It’s not worth all the negative attention and bad name the school gets for a handful of extra players. It really is that simple. Glenwood are doing well in most other sports without buying stars after grade 8…..
@Westers: @umbiloburger:
How much time does Graham Hill actually spend coaching at the schools? If it’s anything like Seagulls Swimming Club (which also carries the Graham Hill nametag) then I would think very little. My lighty was a competitive swimmer until 2 years ago and we have family friends who’s lighty is an U10 up and coming star at Seagulls and apparently he is hardly ever there. Spends most of his time in Johannesburg or overseas.
Can’t help but wonder if he simply sells the rights to his name and simply compiles a training schedule for someone else to supervise. Certainly the case at Seagulls so can’t imagine why it would be different at the schools.
@Gungets Tuft: all that shopping up in the Big Smoke paying dividends
what is project 2018?
@Gungets Tuft: If I am not mistaken none of the top Westville swimmers were allowed to play polo when Hill was swimming coach. Not sure if that is the case now that he has left.
@umbiloburger: I am amazed, Hill is the one who refused to let his swimmers do
Life saving Which is more swimming than polo is.
I was referring to the open division. Your younger teams are very good, all part of Project 2018 …
Somebody mentioned earlier that he cant see any parent deliberately falsely registering their kids date of birth . Where do you come from ? it happens a lot . I was actively involved in jnr club rugby for many years and had many kids who had a birth certificate saying when they were born that was issued six months prior . Unfortunately a school rugby scholarship is a free education at a decent school when often the parents simply cannot afford it . This in itself is motivation to cheat ! the solution is simply – verify the date of issue of the birth certificate with the actual date of birth if they are more than three months apart ( or any reasonable period) then a full investigation is needed . It is apparent that some schools look for a reason not to investigate and some are the opposite – draw your own conclusions
@Gungets Tuft: The GW Website shows that GW beat Grey PE in both the U14A and U15A matches in Cape Town recently. Apparently both these teams are very strong though. Grey PE is a strong water polo school. I am sure their former 1st team coach is now at Northwood.
Swimming coaches amaze me. Graham Hill actually encourages his swimmers to play polo yet others discourage it.
@Grasshopper: Swimming and water polo are two different universes. A top coach will not let his swimmers do polo (ask me, that’s why stopped competitive swimming) or other non-linear swimming such as lifesaving.
@Gungets Tuft: Just imagine if Westville could convert their swimmers and rugga players into polo players….eish!
@umbiloburger: Yeah right – did you see the performance of the Grey High water polo teams in the last few festivals. Handed out swimming lessons to the KZN teams.
Rankings
1 CLIFTON
2 SACS
3 ST ANDREWS COLLEGE
4 GREY HIGH SCHOOL
5 ST STITHIANS
6 ST JOHNS COLLEGE
7 BISHOPS
8 PEARSON
9 HILTON COLLEGE
10 CRAWFORD LONEHILL
@Playa: If you re-read @star: post, what he actually said that he did not recall whether or not PADSSA had an U12B team. I don’t believe he did, or could, say for certain what teams were trotted out in another region 8 years ago.
It’s quite easy: I’m sure someone here knows or recognises one of the lighties or one of the coaches in that photo. Get one of them to confirm that it was an U13 team and that ** was there as an U13 and Bob’s your aunty.
@umbiloburger: Now you can roll your polony.
@QC86: Not sure but definitely none from the EC!!!! You guys can’t swim. I toured their in 1980 and all we got was butter thrown at us at dinner time.
@Ploegskaar: Yep, it was due to a concussion of JC…
@QC86: It’s actually even worse than it sounds, MP mostly played off the bench at the time…
@Ploegskaar: MP the only loosie in the school of 1200 boys,shit dare we play one of them and we loose that would be unbearable.@umbiloburger: anyone in the GW 1st water polo team that comes from Durban.
@QC86: No displaced no6, they had a bit of a loosie injury crises before KERF and WK (with MP out), hence (Player) the short-term fix.
@Anti Green: I have to agree with you on that…..way too many BS cases. Just checked the polo results from the weekends tournament….GW beat House in all 3 teams: U14A won 16-2. U15A won 10-0 and 1st won 6-2.
@Roger: Jan van Riebeeck
@Ploegskaar: Kit he would have got from the displaced no 6 that was in the squad,and has been training his butt off to wear with pride for the last 4 and a half years.But to hell with him as long as we win.
@Ploegskaar: Thanks to Puma :-)
@GreenBlooded: gotta admire your “glass if half full” approach – although some might say you are the proverbial ostrich
@umbiloburger: Didn’t expect you get it, as all you can see is Green and White, Green and White. Be open mined, hell how many BS cases have popped on this blog about GW. Defend as much as you want until the gates fall down.
@Ploegskaar: remind me of the story – which school was the young fella at before been shipped off to the Last Outpost?
@Gungets Tuft: Yes, his folks paid for the uniform, well some of it, like the R535 blazer, R55 tie, 2 x R100 Gibson T-shirts (one black, one white), 2 x R125 Quantec shorts (one white, one green) and a R95 black belt. Definitely did not attend class that day, looking at the time on the GW Uniform Shop Receipt. No new tracksuit though, borrowed an old vrot one from another boy and got a faded warm-up shirt from the Thrift Shop. Rugga Kit was on the house, as you said.
@Anti Green: Sorry AG… I don’t understand that one… I
must have got the drugs option at GW.
@umbiloburger: Please do
@GreenBlooded: You are right to some degree. Someone in that Midlands office needs to produce documentation that was processed back in 2006. One is likely to believe that the accusers have done exactly that, and may not have gotten any answers. What you are missing though is that the accusers have come out saying that this kid was 13 in 2006, and therefore 21 today. It should be the collective of the defense (Midlands and Glenwood) to prove that he was 11 back then. Important for Glenwood to prove they didn’t have another age cheat slip through. That is what we should have learned from the Oscar trial…if your evidence can be disputed, it will be dismissed as unreliable and not enough.
P.S. I know nothing about KZN rugby, but Star has pointed out that the midlands under 12s do not have a B team, so that is most likely an under 13 team.
@umbiloburger: More like “Custards”Land Stand. Have peri peri with that burger, don’t wipe it in your eye.
@Ploegskaar: Eeisch. Poor ou (Player). He gets invited up and made promises and has to bus it back. Some other kid arrived on the doorstep like Oliver Twist with his bowl in his hand and gets flown back. Life’s not fair hey?
@umbiloburger: 3 days school, during which time he would have shifted his kit into the BE, got fitted out with uniforms (he did get a uniform, yes. With a little dryclean it could get sold as new daarso in the Thrift Shop), kitted out with his rugga kit (he didn’t buy his own), did all the paperwork for school etc. Being in the HP Academy a large part of the day is spent in the gym, practice etc, and then those small class tutoring sessions that are structured for them.
Snot all as it seems ou Burger – I suspect you are trying to defend the indefensible with this one.
@umbiloburger: Correspondence on 10/06 between SvR and (Player)’s dad confirms that he did not even receive the school bag and kit bag for which they paid man, so what classes did he attend, with what books, for which subjects? Remember, attending classes was not part of the original plan at all, GW would have paid for him to travel up by bus on Monday (14/04) for arrival Tuesday (15/04), as shown in later correspondence in June, but his dad paid for him to fly up as he would have been a bit kaput to play at KERF on Thursday (17/04).
With all due respect, a ** year old in gr10 clearly was not going to get taught, anything, by anyone, that much is obvious. As for the reason why he left, maybe being informed, after KERF, that he would only be able to play for the 1st team against out-of-province opponents and for the 2nd team against local opponents (as per the KZN HM agreement) had nothing to do with it.
@Anti Green: @Playa: Hell how right you are. But no worries. At least I try and stay positive and find the truth. I have no regrets about standing up for GW. I am very close to getting the accumulative record card. If I do I will send to Beet.
@umbiloburger: Whahahahahahaha, it’s easier to get drugs at GW than an education. Daily News was very quiet when the Waterpolo Team lost to MHS
@QC86: And take away the earphones, mouth pieces etc, it’s embarrassing.
See now Mr umbiloburger, this is why I pleaded with you to stay away from being on the Glenwood defensive and rather stick to the subject at hand.
@umbiloburger: you will learn the hard way,on this blog someone always knows the truth,so clean up GW’s act.While on the subject of cleaning up GW’s act,get your coaching staff some lakka golf shirts, and drop that undersized school blazer that makes him look like a naughty schoolboy,really.
@Ploegskaar: Not such a good time line Ploegs….and not to informed my mate. So he was fetched at the airport after disembarking Mango JE346 by a GW staff member. Three days missing mate. Did he then spend those 3 days on the beach on holiday!!! Nope, he was at school being taught. And that is why he left. He couldn’t cope with the English.
@Roger: There is a point to which you can defend your alma mater’s wrong doings but the straw has broken the grasshoppers back now. I don’t wear blinkers like some at Glenwood headquarters. What frustrates me so much is they would be just as successful without the post grade 8 poaching/buying. Both SA Schools rugby players and SA schools hockey/cricket players were there from grade 8. These newbies don’t add much they just break down what was a good team environment and displace kids mates in the A team. It builds anger and frustration amongst the kids, the parents and the OB’s……
@umbiloburger: Was TK reimbursed by the school. If so this seems a bit unfair on the existing Gwd parents who have to pay for their kids to go on tours. A boy who arrives (assuming unannounced) gets a VIP treatment in the form of a flight back to EL when a bus or taxi could have achieved the same plus whoever paid his way in the first place, should fit the bill for his return.
@umbiloburger: Attended some classes? Please don’t talk kak Mr Informed, here’s a timeline for you:
11/04: SvR sends (player)’s dad the e-mail confirming his move and what he will be offered
12/04: (Player) plays his “last” game for JvR and informs his mates his off to GW the following day
13/04: (Player) leaves on Mango flight JE346 from CT and arrives in Dbn 16:00
17/04: KERF starts, with (Player) on the bench
21/04: KERF ends
22/04: (Player)’s dad sends a fax early morning giving notice to both GW and Gibson House that (Player) will be leaving that same day, as well as a letter to SvR informing him of same with reasons. He leaves on a bus for CT that same day
@star: Agreed on all points. I think we need to clear up exactly what team is shown in this photo. And is the lighty in the photo the same lighty we are discussing? It can’t be that difficult – the lighties and coaches in that photo must still be around. It would be a simple process of asking a few questions – the wrong answers would elevate this to Siyabonga Tom status instantly given the massive interests in some quarters of seeing Glenwood’s name in the wrong sections of the newspaper. The are enough competent hacks around who would have dragged out the necessary facts by now if there was merit. This rumour has been borreling away since the 2nd term – no headlines yet. Tells me something.
I also don’t believe that Glenwood should be defending this at all. The burden of proof should be with the acuser and so far we have a photo of a Midands B team in 2006, the age group of which is not clear, and someone’s aunty’s uncle’s cousin who played in a club match who might remember him. As the Oscar trial should have taught all of us – evidence is only half true until it it tested by the other side and that hasn’t happened here. So until someone can ‘haal uit en wys’ – then Glenwood should sit tight.
As was stated in the main article: it would have been picked up in the audit that came after the Tom debacle, and it didn’t. If this allegation turns out to have merit – what more could/should Glenwood have done? Not that the haters will ever consider this of course – it wouldn’t support their cause……
@umbiloburger: Ya boet, but why was he sent back. There are a few that have definitely not been sent back, and others that were fetched.
I am aware that kids arrive on their ow … I mean parents bring their kids to the school, no issues with that, but if you think it’s all charismatic pull then you are deluded. I have, and I am sure you do given your close relationship and apparent open access to the school, personal knowledge of approaches, recorded phone calls (phone messages left on voice mail!), surprise Sunday afternoon visits to homes in Durban North. It’s not new, been going on since 2011 at least (go back to the SM debacle), right up to this year with boys are still getting veiled offers. There’s a fine line being overstepped constantly, then cloaked in this “we are so good we are fighting them off .. ” defense. Such is life I guess, all good as long as you can live with the consequences, and safely retreat to the Tall Poppy justification.
I think we’re done here … nothing new being said and I am boring myself with repeat conversations, I can’t imagine how other people feel. I am off to find a breakdown … there must be some Landy’s out there …
@umbiloburger: Explain each of these bought players to me please. You denying they were not poached or bought from other schools? Are they half truths?
Marne Coetzee (Waterkloof)
Michael Van Aardt
Warren Potgieter
James Venter
MacMillian Muller
Curtis Jonas (Swellendam)
Koos Tredoux (Waterkloof)
Ntokozo Vidima (KZN Development)
Christopher Klopper
Brandon Staples (Maritzburg College)
Peter-John Kobbie
Ruan Desmore
Jerome Bossr (Selborne)
Joseph Potgieter
Matthew Harmsworth (Fishhoek)
Kyle Westman (Maritzburg College)
Johan King (Jan Van Riebeeck, although short-lived)
@ Greenblooded- my son also played PADSA U12 but my recollection was that they did not have a B team. ( therefore the above regional photo is for U13 participation). I have to add that the timing of the article( just before finals) is not ideal and I am sure all of us would wish the young man all the best for his exams. The issue however is important enough that there must be proper closure. To me the missing ” link” year( 2007) is critical. What school was he at and did he participate in the Midlands trials that year. It would be highly improbable that an obviously talented 11 year old with the ” right” criteria would suddenly go missing the following year. Questions should be directed at the Midlands association and a response that he was injured ( as happened with my son) could be the simple/logical reply. This will provide an acceptable starting point for any accumulation record.
In the GW game against EG Jansen he was my man of the match for his defensive effort alone. However if he was a 21 year old playing against 17 year olds I would have a problem with that ( as I am sure EGJ would have as well). I do think though that at this stage we should all take a step back and allow what ever due process is applicable to run its course.
@umbiloburger: Thats not near the truth,bursary was pulled by GW as damage control after a call from Sammy.In fact the boy wants to sue Selborne for getting his freebee pulled by GW,so be for you start to polish your hallo.Yes all the negative publicity is getting through to the 3 stooges.
@Gungets Tuft: nah – not really interested in the goings on at Glenwood – I just used to enjoy getting a rise from Grasshopper but he has now assumed the John Dillinger role (public enemy number one) at Glenwood so lets see what unfolds.
Glenwood’s strategy won’t win them many friends and from a KES point of view the interaction with them has always been very limited and is not set to grow much beyond that either so good luck to them ……………
@Gungets Tuft: GT….you are right….dug a big hole for myself
I think my battery is going to die and i cant charge for 3 days!!!!!!
Are you guys aware that some cricketer arrived on their door step from East London? TK took him straight to Shaka airport and put him on the 1st plane back to East London. Cost him(TK) a small fortune.
@Gungets Tuft: just what i was thinking.
@umbiloburger: {grabbing a 6-pack of beers and a bag of biltong ….. } .. Bru, you’ve now opened a second argument with the “flood of applicants” claim (I assume that their applications come with the folks paying full fees and boarding ..) … Roger and the boys will be along shortly. Good luck with that.
@umbiloburger: All sounds good,so stop poaching and buying other schools hard work and let your structures do the talking. Then we will all be GW fans and none of us would have any problem getting a klap from you guys.
@QC86: Please don’t write half truths. You sounding like my other mate!!! It has already been established that the boy you refer to did in fact attend classes.
I cannot speak for them but IMO Glenwood stands for being an institution of excellence in sport, cultural and academic endeavors. TK, AB and TP have taken schooling to a different level. In sport they have instituted programs to enhance this excellence which fortunately for them and unfortunately for others, has drawn a multitude of applications from all over the country. Just this weekend, I read in the Daily News that they dominated the KZN Top 10 water polo with their U14 & U15 winning comfortably.
Hey guys. By all means express an opinion on the matter but in a responsible manner and please keep the players names out of it.
I would have loved TK to say to the Sunday Times, we in KZN had a detailed age audit conducted by an independent professional in 2012. Several age cheats from several schools were caught while this player in question was cleared therefore Glenwood has fulfilled its obligation in this regard.
The fact that age audits have not been carried out in the other provinces since 2012 until now still vexes me as I feel that many irregularities would have been uncovered in other regions.
It seems like identity fraud is being driven by those wanting to steal cash from the Govt. These criminals are not interested in the monetary value associated with free education/boarding etc. However as a result of the incentive to get hands on hard cash, the associated criminal industry to produce falsified documents has become so professional and efficient that the parents / guardians of wannabe school age cheats have the opportunity to tap into this market and benefit immensely from obtaining authentic looking documents.
We have to accept that until a better system is put in place by government, most age cheats will operate with impunity. Schools don’t have the resources to do more than basic checks conducted in accordance with the prescribed methods. Also if they are perceived to discriminate against any student they could land in hot water. Whatever they testing they apply to one they generally have to apply to all. It’s a difficult position to be in really. I believe the age audit in KZN in 2012 had to include all players belonging to the tested age groups, even though the probability of uncovering an age cheat was close to zero for a certain sector.
My feeling before was that only players in the lower age groups who were bigger and stronger than their peers should be subjected to more detailed testing, because this is where the higher risk in terms of rugby player safety lied. But even this would be fruitless now if forged documents and made up paper trails are too hard to separate from genuine ones, requiring experts to do detailed testing and then who pays for all of this?
The only thing I can think that might help is that when schools (both high and primary) scout for prospective players, that they use discretion before approaching candidates. Educators need to rely on their years of experience to make judgment calls about whether kids look suspiciously older than their documents claim they are and then don’t make offers to these players. It’s easier said than done I guess and obviously a different matter altogether if the parents apply to the school rather than the school going out to find them.
@umbiloburger: Please explain exactly what GW stands for in your mind.They buy players,they play a kid in their team at KERF that never attended a class at GW,lose 5 games this season and end up only about 6th in the country,flip you must be proud.
@Playa: I have sent a copy of the boys ID book to Beet. Perhaps Beet can cover his names and photograph and place it on the sight for all to see. The accumulative record card is somewhat difficult to get, but I will see what I can do.@Grasshopper: Where have GW deviated from anything? Please be specific. Every time you hear speculation, you construe that as fact and then post negative comments about the school, TK and his stooges. TK probably doesn’t even read this blog. i am very happy to ask questions of the school. Every time I have asked, I get an answer and I post it.
Stop worrying about who I am. Rather concern yourself about what I am. I am someone who believes in GW and the 3 stooges. I am going to protect GW as far as practically possible. That means standing up to people like you who are being untruthful about key issues.
@QC86: Quite a paradox hey
@GreenBlooded: That is a fair comment, and I agree. I am speaking to umbiloburger’s “confirmation” that he was indeed under 11 when he made the side in 2006. I presume he got this confirmation from asking the right questions to the right people as he puts it. He says all the checks have been done and appear to be above.
This is as per this post: @umbiloburger:
@umbiloburger: Not ok to name a 15 or 16 year old on a blog but ok to buy him with heaps of cash to play for your school,you confused boet.
@Playa: The player was in primary school in 2006 – nothing to do with Glenwood. I think the burden of proof needs to come from the accuser(s) here.
Did this guy make the U13B team for Midlands or for KZN? The photo above shows a Natal Midlands B team. It does not say it is an U13 team anywhere. I do know for a fact that the regional team for Pinetown & Districts (PADSSA) have trials for U12 and U13 – my son attended both – so it is possible that this photo creating all the hoo-hah is actually a REGIONAL (!!) U12 team?
Surely it would be a simple case of contacting the coaches from that time (many of them still around I guess) and asking a few simple questions. The fact that this hasn’t blown up into a full Siyabonga Tom level fracas tells me that the allegations don’t check out – Lord knows there are enough people out there who would love this to be on the front pages.
@umbiloburger: Can anyone present documents from 2006 confirming that the kid was 11 years old when selected for the side??? Can you ask the powers that be at Glenwood to just come out with that?
I am one to say that the looks and physical stature of a boy is not enough to call him ‘old’. Black boys unfortunately suffer from that discrimination. I am on record on this blog and others preaching for an end to that sort of ignorance. Being black, having gone to Dale, and still being involved with the school, trust me, if it wasn’t for the under 13 representation in 2006, I would be screaming out loud in the boys’ defence, or at least give him the benefit of the doubt.
So let us leave the Glenwood defence, and pulling the race card does not lead us to the facts about the boy’s age. Only facts will solve this puzzle
@umbiloburger: oh yes, it’s called an avatar and I am happy to change it to my real name as everybody on this blog knows who I am anyway. According to a democracy I have the right to an opinion, hence open forum’s like this.
@umbiloburger: Boet, boe, boet….I never belittled him at all, please point that out. I have actually praised him for being a great allround sportsman. The issue is with Glenwood. So you obviously know me, so I’m guessing you Rudi or one of those other brainwashed guys working at the school. Let me spell it out for the hundredth time, buying in a sportsman to replace another is called professional and does not show loyalty to the incumbent. As far as I am aware schools sport is still amateur. If Glenwood want to remove the school part from the name and replace it with Academy then that is fine, just be honest about it…….so funny how you try to deviate from the topic again by attacking me……this is a usual Glenwood tactic…..avoid and divert. My favourite saying from the brainwashed is ‘tall trees catch the most wind’, seems they are catching the most flak currently…
@Grasshopper: To belittle and shame a 15 or 16 year old in a public forum under a pseudonym…..yeah right, that list of things you stand for definitely matches up to that.
Anyway the topic here is not about you. I will pursue that when I see you face to face next time.
@umbiloburger: Just to clarify my stance I suggest you carefully read back to @Here, @here
The comments that the whole investigation is premised on race (in my case anyway) is correct onlyu when premised on my comments @here, and I quote “Given the state of “disadvantaged” medical facilities back in 1994/5 (hell, even now in many places), it would be punitive to impose rules that are impossible to satisfy because it would literally exclude anyone not born in a metropole.”
Let’s (dignify your comments and) expand a little on the basic difference with white kids. Mommy and daddy are generally supported by medical aid, they get 2 or 3 ultrasound scans during pregnancy, on memory stick now (I still have VHS tapes) with which we bore anyone unwary enough to even ask. We go to pre-natal classes, maternity wards and ante-natal classes. We have forms for child registration put into our hands before the placenta is even delivered. By the time the gynae has finished washing his hands there is a notice in all the local papers. By the next day dad is nursing a “wet the head” barbie and a devastated credit card for flowers, eternity rings and prohep. Room to manoevre for age smoke and lights … not very much. Then at age 4 the child is in pre-school, by 5 in grade 0, by the time he starts grade 1 is reading, writing and redy to rock and (school) roll, where mom and dad take is as a badge of honour to be able to say “Johnny is already in big school, and he’s only 6, he will matriculate when he has just turned 17”, quietly intimating all sorts of genetic superiority over their friends whose kids are stunted in comparison.
Lets see how ST might have fared. Midwife delivered at a rural clinic. Home Affairs perhaps 50km away, with no reason to bother at all. By age 4 is almost completely independent, doing what kids might do in a rural farming community. By age 7 is able to diagnose any common disease his family live stock might suffer from, is trusted with duties in the family home that your average city dweller watches on a TV Sitcom. The kid arrives in school and is 3 years behind his (white and urban black) peers. At that stage the school asks for an ID – so mom and dad brave the mayhem at home affairs and register the boy, not too much attention paid to the date of birth becuase it’s not important. Even better, at this stage an agent is on e the scene and sees a bit of potential and helps the process along (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more). Result, school failure and being held back. Or he is pushed through, struggling all the way (true story – ask me in private about a quite well known case making his way through the Durban school system as we speak). So a “held back” or two at junior school makes him 14 in Grade 7. (Enter an agent as before and “manages” a transition for him).
Accumulative record – I will show you later today how easy it is for me to suddenly turn into a 17 year old, just watch me go ..
Is this the schools fault – possibly, but equally possibly not, because they can as easily be presented with all the required documents, in original form and perfectly acceptable. Then something like this happens – a kid plays a representative match for a … club for instance. Someone already at that club points out that he played at U13 level with this boy back in 2006. The club, or Union, is made aware and investigates. Bob’s your auntie. There’s no conspiracy, school wise or race wise.
So it matters not whether you have a problem with aq 10 year old being selected for a representative U13 side, the odds against this are massively stacked against it being likely. Even the biggest boys during the 2006 DPHS days of Mssrs Doop, Jackson, Francis, Reece-Edwards, Else, Ente, Blakeway – their 2006 U11 side, didn’t come close to U13 selection (in fact never went to trials – that DPHS team didn’t even have a point scored against them until the last match of the season!).
It’s my last word on this, hopefully. You don’t need to dig too far into these blogs to see that I have long been an admired of this particular boy, who’s approach to the game I have admired sine he arrived on the scene. It’s an ill wind that blows nobody any good, but it is not able to be ignored, because it’s a symptom of the disease that needs to be cured. I suspect that your fear of him losing his contract is not something to worry about, you will know why but I am not going to elaborate becasue it will definitely out the boy more than he has already been outed. His talent will carry him through, no question, but the greater issue will remain unresolved unless this instance and others like it are dealt with and put to rest, not papered over.
Apologies for the wordy post – but you touched me on my (race) studio ..
@umbiloburger: he has been mentioned many times before on here. I certainly do stand for honesty, transparency, democracy, equality, morals & ethos, all of which Glenwood has thrown out with all the dodgy happenings there, now being exposed by the media. Sometimes to help the ones you love you need to be harsh, in this case severe punishment is the only thing that will shake things up….
@QC86: again I am no great academic but I am sure it refers to talk being cheap. @Grasshopper: Do you really think that to use the boys name is appropriate? May I suggest you change your jersey because you certainly do not represent anything GW stands for.
@QC86: they need lots of it to buy all the new players. At the OB’s dinner we got convinced to give the grade 8 waiters R100 each per table as a ‘tip’. Not sure if they ever saw the cash, *** parents probably using it for flight money…
@umbiloburger: What is it with you okes at GW and money. [ puts his money where his mouth is ]????
@umbiloburger: yep, so do I but only for legit things, not dodgy things like the goings on at Glenwood. They would get heaps more from me and other OB’s if they were just open, honest & transparent. Admitting mistakes is also not a weakness….trust builds relationships….being quiet & devious doesn’t…
@Grasshopper: I am proud of you boet,get GW back on track.They worth fixing@Gungets Tuft: You can spin this any which way it just does not add up.
Sorry GT, not having a go at you. Stereotyping is the word I should have used. And you will notice that I used “we” because I am also guilty of doing the same thing.
I am going into the school today and will ask some of the questions you wanted answers to.
U11 at U13 Craven in the B side as a black player….yes I buy it. I have been involved in development rugby and it certainly is a possibility.
@Grasshopper:
Not sure if you think that I am GO!!! not a bad compliment as I hold him in high esteem…as do many. He has done heaps of good for GW and will continue to do so. He puts his money where his mouth is.
Sorry GT, not having a go at you. Stereotyping is the word I should have used. And you will notice that I used “we” because I am also guilty of doing the same thing.
I am going into the school today and will ask some of the questions you wanted answers to.
U11 at U13 Craven in the B side as a black player….yes I buy it. I have been involved in development rugby and it certainly is a possibility.
@umbiloburger: Seriously, that’s your view. You don’t know me from Adam but you hit me with the race and the anti-Glenwood thing in one post.
10 years old at CW U13, not buying it. It’s not even close to a 14 year old at GK, not by mile. That statement is making the claim more doubtful. As for me chasing this because my sentiments are race based, not going to dignify that.
@Gungets Tuft: He played U13B as an U11 player. I don’t have a problem with that. A lightly from GW made GK this year and was still 14 at the week, he turned 15 in September. And he is white.
Perhaps that could be the problem here. Race. Have we ever heard of one allegation about an overage white boy. I remember a good old friend who you also know (the good old sponsor for the red black white for a few years back) blurting out on Bassons about an overage wing from GW after he ran around a MC boy. I also have it on very good authority that he is involved with this matter. Because this kid is black and comes from not the normal primary school, we cast dispersions on him. And because he is at GW….. The rest is history.
@umbiloburger: no axe to grind GO, just sick & tired on my alma mater’s name being dragged through the mud. Glenwood is now notorious and not respected. I don’t give a rats about if they right this occasion, they’ve been wrong many times before and need to face consequences. As much as I would hate it, I hope more schools pull out of fixtures with Glenwood. They need a serious wake up call, recruit at grade 8 and then hands off!!! It’s really that simple…
@umbiloburger: Sorry, cross post there. The problem with just letting it go is that there is just no clarity. You say he’s a clear but there’s just Glenwoods word for it. I know how easy it is to get a blank Accumulated record card, we all know how easy an ID is (R800 is the going price). None of the dates add up, unless he was 10 at Midlands in 2006. The big issue, for me at least, is that timeline and his arrival under age for Grade 8. Passing grade 7 is meaningless unless we know what school that was. I know kids with grade 11 that can’t write their names, and the new ruling is that kids must be automatically promoted after 2 fails. Circumstances don’t add up. The boy has unfortunately become the poster boy for dodgy circumstance and the more there is no explanation for the circumstance the more suspicion is aroused. The Times is not going to leave it alone, best Glenwood have the answers at hand.
Not sure where Glenwood deserve credit …??
@Gungets Tuft: none….unless the injury we are reading about was a severe brain injury
@umbiloburger: But still no explanation of how a 10 year old boy gets selected for a representative U13 side, then get admitted to grade 8 a year younger than his peers despite being an obvious academic struggler. Does that make sense to you?
@Gungets Tuft: Sorry GT, I got to involved with someone else.
Not being an academic I haven’t a clue what happened. But he passed grade 7 so I don’t see the problem. Bottom line is I cant the problem here. Surely we can put this to bed now. Leave the poor kid alone. If he is overage, he will be found out, but everything looks legitimate here. GW deserve some credit here.
@Grasshopper: Borderline dodgy things….deviation tactics!!! Be specific. You clearly have an axe to grind with the bosses at GW.
The bottom line is that in this case, they have done nothing wrong. And that seems to really irritate you.
@umbiloburger: you may have a few brainwashed OB’s reveling in the victories, but there are many others with some brains who can see through the deviation tactics, where there is smoke there is fire. The fire is running wild across Dixons presently….
@umbiloburger: you sound a lot like GO, just adding some poetic Licence to get me off your trail. I have many insiders too, including boys there. I know the facts! The school is doing borderline dodgy things and the OB’s will win in the end…mark my words…..no individual or 3 is bigger than a 104 year old institution…..
@Grasshopper: not quite my mate….but I do have access to them and others and I use it to find out the facts. I have read enough of your brash comments about Glenwood and I honestly find it hard to believe most of what you say. I read a thread between you and your
Mates going on about a boy that left College to move to GW. You guys think you are an authority on these matters. Far from it. I will send the boys dad your contact details and have him call you. Explain yourself to him and let us see what transpires. Also substantiate your information before posting.
Glenwood is a good school. I was happy to send my son there and I am certain his kids will go there too.
@umbiloburger: So it is confirmed that the boy played Midlands Development B at age 10, then no representative rugby until 2008, in grade 8 (at age 12) when he played Glenwood U14.
Any reason why a boy who was clearly unprepared academically for high school was pushed into Grade 8 at younger than his peers (U13) when it would clearly have been in his best interests to have rather been placed at Glenwood Prep and repeated Grade 7?
@Playa: Everyone knows that you could in the recent past buy a RSA ID document. However you cannot do that with your schools accumulative record. The one for this boy is the original. I agree that should he be overage then he must be dealt with appropriately. However haven asked the right people the right questions and looking at the facts, there is nothing that Glenwood, the KZNRU or his new union have wrong. All checks and balances have been done and everything appears above. Lets work it back as per his record:
2014 Grade 12 U19
2013 Grade 11 U18
2012 Grade 10 U17
2011 Grade 10 U16 (Failed)
2010 Grade 9 U15
2009 Grade 8 U14
2008 Grade 8 U13(Failed)
2007 Grade 7 U12
2006 Grade 6 U11
I highly doubt a handful of bloggers are going to affect his contract. It was written in the Times, this blog has max 200 users. However, you are obviously one if the three stooges or one of their yes men, you know too much not to be ;-)
@umbiloburger: Just a couple of observations .. and I have spoken about the accumulative record and his ID etc being in order.
If the Sharks U19 guys did their homework (Point 5), and the union to which he is contracted to next year have done their homework (Point 6) and are certain of his eligibility to play at U19 etc, why would his contract be in jeopardy (Point 7)?
So either the Unions couldn’t give a rats about this discussion, or this discussion has raised doubts. Which one is it?
Edit – if the press won’t publish his ID, give it to Beet – I am sure he will be willing. After all, nothing to hide. Beet might miss some traffic to his blog, but in the interests of fairness …
@umbiloburger: Are there any records from 2006 that show his age to be 11? That for me would be the starting point of his defence. The stuff you have mentioned above are follow ups to make things add up. This is not me saying he is guilty, just that I think historic empirical evidence would be key considering the improbability of an 11 year old being selected for an under 13 provincial side.Freaks of nature are a reality, but let the record reveal his age in 2006, and I think all the sceptics will move on.
@Grasshopper: I have been reading and asking questions regarding the chap. Let me ask these questions:
1. Has anyone checked his DOE accumulative record card? Answer : Yes
2. Is it in order? Yes 100%
3. Has he repeated in high school? Yes Grade 8 & 10
4. Has his ID document been given to the press? Yes but they won’t publish it because it will take away sensationalism the article has created.
5. Did he represent KZN u19 after the school season in 2014? Yes so he was obviously cleared by the KZNRU.
6. Does he have a contract for 2015? Yes but not in KZN so obviously that union too have done their homework.
7. Is there a chance he could lose his contract because this speculation? Yes. There is certainly a chance
8. Is he aware of what is going on and being said about him? No. He is focussing on passing his matric.
9. If he does lose his his contact and with it a chance of making a career out of rugby, and if he is of the right age, will any of you stand up and help this young lad? Doubt it?
@Cappie: Well Glenwood should be sanctioned for a year, it’s the only way TK will wake up….
We are far into the 21st century, and we cannot sort out learner’s ages. Schools should be made unconditionally aware of age restrictions, and they should take complete responsibilities to control it. It is not the duty of the opposition or the authorities to show it out to them. All first and second team players should be U’18. If you are 19, you should still be allowed to play in the 3nd team and downwards. At 20 you should not be allowed to play schools rugby at all.
U’16, u’15 and u’14’s say what it say, and you need to play in your age groups. A school that is guilty of playing elder pupils in the labelled age groups should firstly officially be addressed, followed by sanctions against that school.
@Buffel: So is it now a fact he was overaged or not?
Had my issues about the boy in question for a number of years now. Mature in the face and very physical – should be playing open rugby. Open meaning seniors, not u19 or u21. He scored in the game SHARKS U19 V EP U19 on the Park. Luckily they didn’t get through to the final or they could have lost all the points generated while he was present.
@The Head: Alright, hear you loud and clear. Let’s wait for the outcome.
@Anti Green: That’s why I said since this boy made the KZN craven week, then the KZNRU should have checked all ages especially the year after Tom.
I think all schools must come up with a solution, to protect the integrity of schoolboy rugby. 1 incident alone is one incident too many.
@The Head: Yes you are correct with my choice of word, Obama says anything is possible. How is it KZN has this age problem? We all want this to get sorted once and for all.
@Playa: It was my opinion and I understand why everyone is worried especially coming so soon after the Tom scandal. I just think we should look at it from angles of possibility.
True, maybe he was 2 years younger.
I too hope to find the truth and I hope the school assists where needed to end all confusion
@Anti Green: Firstly I don’t think we should use the word impossible, especially in sport. This situation could be described as improbable, and yes it is very possible that he got an injury. Like I said I am not saying he is not an age cheat, I’m just saying that there is a possibility that his timeline adds up. We must also remember that making the B team the one year doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed a spot in the “A” team the next year.
We must also remember that in primary school rugby, black kids tend to dominate and seem bigger than the other kids. But by the time their in grade 9 and 10 the other kids catch up in size and maturity (ball skills).
Once again I will say that I am not saying this guy is the right age or not, all I am saying is when it comes to such serious matters we need more proof than just a picture. It raises suspicion, yes. But then reporters must do their homework before making it public, the school must also be transparent and provide the necessary documents. Let’s not make accusations based on a picture, but the picture should make us raise our eyebrows and dig a little deeper into the matter.
I hope the truth comes out!
@The Head: Thanks for the bit of clarity.
Not to sound like I am jumping to conclusions, but if he was 11 in Grade 6, in order to play with his classmates he would have played under 12 and not under 13. Unless what you meant to say was that he was 11 in Grade 7; i.e. 2 years younger than his grade.
@The Head: That talented at that age, impossible. What happened after u13B selection? Injury?
With regards to this boy, when I started grade 8 in 2009 he was in his 2nd year of grade 8 (he had started school early meaning he was 13 the first time around). He again failed in grade 10 meaning he was now a grade behind for his age.
This is not an attack on anyone and is my own opinion.
In grade 6 he would have been 11. Which means if he wanted to play with his class mates he would have been playing u13, and as his position is not one that requires size it is quite possible that he could have made the team as an 11 year old.
He has also made KZN after the Tom incident so I doubt that KZNRU would not check ages thoroughly the year after Tom was caught out.
So I doubt he is overage but in today’s world you can never be sure as the officials we in trust are at times involved with all this, but I hope this whole matter can be cleared
@Tang: In this particular case a very reliable person has sight of documents that absolve the school – if all that is required is going by the book. I have long said that there should be a list of criteria that schools have to comply with and it would appear that it is intact in this case. It’s difficult to add a last criteria of “you should have noticed something”. Introduce a subjective measure and you introduce a loophole that makes the rules redundant. So, you have the Accumulative Record from the boys day-1, you have an acceptable ID Document that has not been changed (which implies a birth cretificate accepted by Home Affairs). Given the state of “disadvantaged” medical facilities back in 1994/5 (hell, even now in many places), it would be punitive to impose rules that are impossible to satisfy because it would literally exclude anyone not born in a metropole.
The annual ladder I posted looks damning, but might be explainable, and would it be the responsibility of the school to run around and check?. I don’t know the answer, but I also prefer to remain as objective as I can. When it comes to accepting the (agreed) evidence presented, all schools face the danger of falling foul.
Perhaps the answer is a standard for checking, a committee that sits at the beginning of each season and vets new arrivals (mainly Grade 8 ) in A and B teams, and all mid season arrivals. Any doubtfuls get referred to an independent spook for checking at the schools cost. No independent check, no play.
If you think that the late registrations of birth have had a negative impact on rugby, can you imagine how many (millions) illegal foreigners are in SA- “legalized” by late registrations. Thousands of Cossas, from Mozambique, have become Khozas after their arrival in SA and the payment of R500+. One , was supposedly born in Kuruman, while in fact, he was born in Curumane in Mozambique- he and his family of 6. He had never been in Kuruman. I even know of a SA High Commissioner/Ambassador who was in actual fact an illegal from the country where he became SAs representative.
@meadows: Can you imagine how talented he must have been? Making the B team aged 11 and then disappearing only to be found in the Glenwood 1st Team years later. Cold Case
@Gungets Tuft: Unfortunately the heads of many schools attend the meetings, agree to the standards and then immediately break the rules since there is no sanction.
This is why the schools who have taken action deserve to be applauded. They have put principle before tradition. It is too easy to overlook the offense since many of the offenders are traditional rivals.
The headmasters meetings should not only list actions they deem unsavoury, they should also list consequences for schools who break the agreed rules/ principles/ guidelines.
@Tang: In all three cases of schools refusing to play Glenwood, and Westville last year, there was no mention of the age issue, it was about poaching and professionalism, leaving …………… (insert your school name of choice here) to interpret it as the fact that the other schools can’t keep up. It’s the problem we have not yet managed to solve – to prove that the school knowingly broke the rules (age). It’s too easy to break the rules and to escape sanction – let’s call it the Nkandla Defense (How was I supposed to know, others acted on my behalf ..).
I think it might take another 2-3 years to work it’s way through the system, where schools will no longer have any excuses, now that the Modus Operandi of the perps is known. The only thing standing in the way of stopping it is agreement in word and deed from schools. That is where the prize is – unequivocal support from the Heads. I won’t be holding my breath …
@Gungets Tuft: I think you raise a very important point. There is no sanction for schools who misbehave so why change the behaviour? If a school was sanctioned for an offense they would not continue to offend.
Imagine if a school was banned from playing for a season? As long as we allow school boy rugby to go unregulated, there will be schools who will take advantage.
Hilton, Selborne and SACS are the only schools who have applied punitive sanctions against offending schools by refusing to play fixtures them. One could probably argue that Affies have done the same thing. Perhaps we should be making a much bigger deal of the above schools who have had the courage to take action.
@Gungets Tuft: Given the physical development that takes place with the onset of puberty I think that it is highly unlikely that a 10/11 year old pre pubescent boy could compete physically with 12/13 year olds. There are cases of early onset puberty in boys as young as 11 but this is the exception rather than the norm. The timing of puberty is IMO the major problem in predicting future rugby performance from the U13 age group. Many of those that stand out at that age are simply “early developers” who are then outstripped in their teenage years.
It is quite amazing how these stories continue to surface and make headlines. It must take quite an effort to find the information, verify the information and then break the story through a credible channel.
It is highly improbable that Glenwood are the only school to field over age players (unknowingly).
I can understand how Glenwood feel persecuted since they seem to be the school most often in the firing line.
One can only applaud the parents, educators in KZN who take the time and effort to report and follow up on these serious issues in school boy rugby.
If other provinces waged such an active campaign against known offenders, there would be far more chance of eradicating the behaviour and getting SARU to begin regulating school boy rugby properly.
Ya, covered that ground, but that’s just clouding the issue.
The bottom line is that the parents and kids don’t set out to defraud – what parent back in 1994 decides to delay the registration of their boy for 3 years so that he can be a pro sportsman. What kind of a long shot is that. Delays in registration only become “useful” when the size, aptitude, attitude, opportunity planets all line up later.
Apparently the documents of this guy are, from a school point of view anyway, all 100% in order. If that’s the case then perhaps Glenwood need to show them to a credible reporter. It’s important for Glenwood, KZN and schoolboy rugby that the situation gets clarified.
Anyway, private mails that I have been sent over the last 2 days seem to show that the boys high school career was actually 7 years long (failed 2 grades) so the picture as more like below. Still some unexplained events, like playing KZN Invitational B at the age of 10 or 11 (remember he’s not a big kid, even now). If I do my numbers then this was around the time of the Doops, kids like Matt Jackson, Michaels Dicks DPHS Dream Team, all seriously sized guys. Was a 11 year old going to survive that, given that he is only about 75kg now?
2006 – KZN U13B – age 10 or 11
2007 – ??????????????? – age 12
2008 – Glenwood ???? – age 13
2009 – Glenwood ???? – age 14
2010 – Glenwood ???? – age 15
2011 – Glenwood ???? – age 16
2012 – Glenwood 1sts – age 17
2013 – Glenwood 1sts – age 18
2014 – Glenwood 1sts – age 19
@Gungets Tuft: I think a couple if the ‘kids’ in the Glenwood Under14A need to be checked too….
@Gungets Tuft: just like that poor ‘kid’ at Westville who rolled his ankle a couple of seasons ago
@Playa: He would have been 10 years old at those trials (May) as his birthday is after July. Must have been quite something to keep out all the 13 year olds.
@Vleis: I don’t have details of the matter myself,just heard in passing and that the boy was cleared.That’s why I asked.
@Gungets Tuft: Must have been a tough year kids wise for KZN to have 11 year olds at under 13 trials.
@Playa: To be fair to Hudson, I didn’t see their side. I just heard about them from my son’s mates (at KES and Hilton) and their parents. Perhaps I shouldn’t have mentioned them, as it is not first hand experience. Bennies, on the other hand, is quite different, as I have plenty of first hand experience of watching them.
@Playa: Or just have two IDs. One that you use to get scholarships, play rugby etc, the other one to get into clubs. 3 years apart. True story.
Just doing some numbers with our current case
2006 – KZN U13B – age 11 (or 13)
2007 – ??????????????? – age 12
2008 – ??????????????? – age 13
2009 – ??????????????? – age 14
2010 – Glenwood ???? – age 15
2011 – Glenwood ???? – age 16 (or 18, just making it into CW)
2012 – Glenwood ???? – age 17 (or 19)
2013 – Glenwood 1sts – age 18 (or 20)
2014 – Glenwood 1sts – age 19 (or 21)
Possibility of an 11 year old being picked for the KZN team, or even being sent to the trials?
Snot adding up John, not at all ..
@Vleis: Was the Hudson kid not cleared?
You have hit the nail on the head with officials.I once said a similar thing here.In the 90s,there were stories floating around about IDs and birth certificates being doctored,especially for boys to get into the Border Development sides.This gave them exposure to the colleges and therefore a chance.
Two schools that have recently appeared to field overage players are St Benedict’s and Hudson Park – both in the current u16 age group. Both schools had lethal u14A teams, but only decent u16A teams…as the kids of others schools slowly catch up in maturity. Perhaps they had a bunch of players that matured very, very early…but the likelihood of that is at least a few std deviations from the mean.
That said, nothing has been proven as the boys have not been tested. When a friend called the Gauteng Rugby Union last year to ask what he could do about the problem, they said that it must be sorted out between the schools. Well…that’s not going to happen is it!? Interestingly, my friend called on a ‘no names basis’, but the Union official asked what age group he was concerned about. When my friend replied “u15”, the official immediately responded with the following question, “Ok, are you referring to St Benedict’s?” Clearly the officials know what is going on but do nothing about it.
Age cheating will continue forever (particularly by boys from a humble background) given that the rewards are so huge – e.g. scholarships from great SA schools, admittance to top football academies, etc.
By the way, a friend who played for College at a similar time when Tom played for Glenwood said that, “everyone knew that he was way too old.” Sounds just like the situation at Bennies.
@meadows: It is so easy to check up on dates. Data is openly available on facebook, hoewever strange when you start looking for data about someone which you are suspicious about, you will not find his birthday there.
@Grasshopper: My understanding of the events that exposed Payi initially and then Tom (perhaps others?) was that a few fairly simple cross checks were done by someone at DHS – long form birth certificates etc – that quickly exposed discrepancies. This was, if i recall correctly, in the lead up to CW trials and so all participants were asked to provide the additional documentation. Tom was duly exposed. These were not errors or mix ups but deliberate and fraudulent efforts to cheat certainly on the part of the individual and whichever agent brokered their moves.
Frankly, I find it inconceivable in the wake of those events that a comprehensive due diligence on any sportsman applying for, or being offered, funding is not carried out. That is negligence at best.
But then I also find it inconceivable that school and junior provincial coaches around the country continue to turn a blind eye to, and perhaps even encourage, the blatant steroid abuse that takes place.
@Playa: everybody missed the overage issue as they both made provincial & national sides along the way. Glenwood would have trusted the ID docs they were given. I’m sure a few coaches might have questions though. They might have turned a blind eye not wanting to make it a race issue…..not sure, don’t have the facts…
Glenwood and bad publicity, can’t be good for the school’s image.
@Grasshopper: Did these okes hide their true ages or was it a known thing, but allowed anyway?
Why I ask is because my dad matriculated in 1972 aged 20 together with his older brother at 23 at Healdtown – I presume you know that this is the same institution where Nelson Mandela went to. Probably comparing oranges and apples I know, given the time and that different rules ‘white’ and ‘black’ schools
P.S. They started school late
@meadows: OK you didn’t get my point. There are probably many players who were overaged in the years prior to Tom and Payi-gate. With checking those players could have been stopped…..that was my point. Auditing of all schools sportsman should be mandatory and we should not just rely on a schools blogger or headmasters word……trust has been broken, all must be checked…
@Grasshopper: The difference then was that unless they played U15 when they were 17, for example, they weren’t “cheats”. There was no cap that I can recall on the open age group so there were plenty of 19 year old’s in 1st Xv’s as well as Craven Week and SA Schools sides. Remember also that this was at a time, in the 70’s, when if you progressed through school normally you matriculated in the year that you turned 17. Boys that were selected for SA Schools at 19 such as your own Dereck La Marque in ’79, DHS’s Mike Barker in ’78 and even the great Danie Gerber in ’77 (his 3rd year SA Schools) were not cheats as it was done with full disclosure and within the rules governing schoolboy rugby. The U18 limit at Craven Week was only introduced in the last decade.
@Playa: there have been age cheats since age groups were introduced, it’s just more important now as more is in the balance. In the 60’s and 70’s there were boys aged 20 plus playing school rugby having failed many years.
@Grasshopper: Ok, you’re not ignorant of the EC.
I did not say that they are not done, I said that I am not aware of them being done.In simple English maybe they are done, maybe they are not. Further, to that KZN schools did not do them either until PayiTomgates. so there goes your 10 years audit experience. By saying they have not been unnecessary, I am saying we haven’t yet had an Agecheatgate, so I can understand why they wouldn’t if they don’t. As for age audits being mandatory, I agree, especially now that the great Glenwood is leading the way in producing age cheats
What am I doing?I think this is when I go to my employer and ask for more work…I am clearly under-employed…
@Playa: boet that is the dumbest argument I’ve ever heard. So because no one has been caught they shouldn’t be checked, wow! I worked in auditing for 10 years, if we had done that people would have got away with plenty. Age audits should be compulsory countrywide. Secondly I’m not ignorant at all about EC, having parents living in St Francis Bay. I have recently drove through EC & Border a few times visiting a few of the schools, some of the boys certainly don’t look like boys. Anyway, I’m not supporting Glenwood here I’m on your side….
@Grasshopper: You see now, this is called speculation. having blogged with you for some years, I have realised that you are very ignorant when it comes to anything about the EC. But let me entertain you.
I am not aware of any age audits that have been done because it hasn’t been necessary. Neither am I aware of any standard steroid testing…because it hasn’t been necessary. Can I say with certainty that there are no age cheats and no steroid users in the EC schools? NO. I can tell you though that the standard age verification process is followed when admitting boys into the school. I don’t like to speculate, so I will tell you a fact. None of the mainstream (co-eds included) Border schools have had cases of over-age boys.
Age audits were introduced in your region because you have cases of ‘boys’ being bust. Just as with steroid testing in KZN and Gauteng.
I am super glad that this is a case of a kid from KZN, worse of all, a kid who has represented the province at junior level. Because I was very interested in what you were going to say after the last conversation we had on his subject where you portrayed this as a problem with EC boys coming to KZN.
Interestingly, this was Kershaw’s response when asked where the boy came from:
“We picked him up a some festival, and we checked his birth certificate”.
We trusted that Glenwood was clean until the Tom Saga. Trust that OUR schools are clean, unless you can provide something of substance that could prove otherwise. For now, you are speculating. Or would it be fair to say that KZN schools don’t have their houses in order? Just because Glenwood and DHS have had instances? Come on
@Grasshopper: The okes weren’t born too old … so where they are from hardly pertinent. It’s common knowledge that child registration in rural areas is not the top priority for parents before social grants became a reality, so Tom and Payi would have been born in about 1992 or so, 2 years before it became evident that birth registration might be worthwhile. The actual point is, with that being common knowledge, that checking of documents and supporting documents needs to be more rigorous. I can produce pre and ante-natal records, bills from the hospital and doctor, innoculation records, newspaper announcements, birth registration (birth certificates). Distil that lost down and make the right documents a requirement for any sport at school. If an agent arrives at a school with a boy in tow, make the document pack a requirement.
A statement of “we saw him at a festival and have been looking after him ever since” doesn’t wash when the boy was photographed at a U13 festival and then 3 years later was playing U14.
Add the detail – what festival was he picked up from, because if it was the DPHS U13 festival in 2008 then the answer slaps you in the face.
I know he won’t, because it appears the DILLIGAF defence is the order of the day, but why does the leadership of Glenwood not invite a journalist of repute in for a full disclosure. Produce the boys admission records, the bith certificate they are legally required to have on file. Explain the sequence of events that lead to him being offered “help”. If it’s all above board there is nothing holding them back. In fact, the absence of full disclosure almost seems like an admission of guilt.
@Playa: no they didn’t come from your schools, but we must trust that your schools are clean? Have any schools down there had a proper age audit? Should we just trust your word? What checks do EC schools do to ensure it’s not a problem? Genuine questions not stirring…
@Grasshopper: They didn’t come from Dale nor Queens. And I will quote you as reference:
“Not good, but really funny coming from schools and supporters where they probably don’t have their house in order either”
Which schools are you referring to? Because at that point in time it was myself, Ludz, Queenian and QC86 who had commented.Do you know something about our schools and age cheats that we don’t know about?That is my question.
@Playa: where did Siyabonga Tom and Payi come from originally?
@Grasshopper: @GreenBlooded: I don’t think anyone doubts that this could be happening at many other schools. What was cynical is Grassy’s first response.Pretty juvenile to throw stones sitting in glass house. A negative headline on Glenwood, and his first response is to throw one at someone else.If Grassy knows something we don’t, he must put it on the table.
@Anti Green: LOL! All was verified my man, don’t worry. It was just the programme that was missing the info.
@Grasshopper: Care to provide reasons/explanation as to why you’d say/ask that?
Relax guys
I hear that Tom and his side kicks from the Gwd 2013 team moved into Tafta , no doubt they have a welcoming party planned for most of this years
1st team….swapping their rugby boots for tiddlywinks and Bingo – I’m sure
they will slot in seamlessly
It’s a dogs breakfast!!! Almost run out of energy to care anymore. Sent plenty of emails, had calls etc and I don’t even have a son yet. If the powers that be are that autocratic I’ll leave it until through natural attrition they are gone. By then any goodness left in the school will be gone. If i do have a son one day he certainly isn’t going to Glenwood whilst Hitler, Goering and Goebbels are in charge…
@Grasshopper: I don’t know if there will be repercussions. What really happened after ST and MP, nothing really. The players are gone but the matches played during their time stayed on the record, no master or headmaster had to account, no agents walked the plank, nobody had to pay back any money. Loads of huffing and puffing but no blow the house down. Hardly a consequence to make people think twice next time or to really tighten up controls. 2 or 3 schools refuse fixtures, the local one is vilified as scared and hypocritical, but still no meaningful consequence. I reckon it’s going to take a hard line at refusing to allow kids to play unless they satisfy a set of criteria that eliminates the possibility of age cheating. If there’s doubt you are out. But can that be made to stick … constitutionally speaking. Eeisch …. Covering all the same ground again. Can’t be bothered. We all know this stuff …
@Grasshopper: Hope so too, good luck GW.
@Anti Green: the OB’s are led by a TK yes man, tough to do. Many OB’s have their heads in the sand! Hopefully this new story wakes them the F up…
@GreenBlooded: Thanks, well then the Old Boys need to grow a set of steel balls and get him out that school.
Lot’s of cynical comments here from the usual suspects. Perhaps some of you need to consider what is probably the most important sentence in the article: “This in turn poses the question of what more Glenwood or any other school in their position could possibly have done to verify the player’s age.” Difficult question that – much easier to just post cynical rhetoric.
@Anti Green: If you haven’t realised this by now then let me spell it out: Kershaw listens to NOBODY. Not Old Boys, not staff, not parents – NOBODY. He truely DOES NOT CARE what the opinions of him are.
Do they have family rooms for married borders?
@Knight_CHS07: not shifting blame at all, actually have a petition started against Glenwood at the moment. I can’t have two or three people ruin my beloved school. I’m just saying everyone is quick to point fingers when are they 100% sure they are clean too. The past has indicated most overage players coming from the EC/Border area, I’m sure it’s just the tip of the iceberg!
Surely the players know exactly what’s going on. Plain and simple cheating. The players should get banned. Wonder just how widespread this really is .One has to feel for kids that are kept out of representative school teams by over age cheats, let alone the risks of injuries they may cause. Time for strong action . Just go watch some of the u14 and 15 games and you are left wondering……………
@Ludz: Hoppers not insinuating that you don’t, it’s a generalised statement.It is getting ridiculous that GW are getting caught with their pants down most of the time, when other schools are doing the same thing. Must be hard to be an Old Boy and this keeps erupting, maybe its time for the Old Boys to bring out the sword for TK to fall on it.
@Grasshopper: Quick to shift the blame aren’t we Grassy?
@Greenwood: I think that’s a question we won’t need to answer – it will all be clear soon. I can’t imagine the newspapers leaving it alone now.
@Grasshopper: Who told you we don’t have our house in order?
Not good, but really funny coming from schools and supporters where they probably don’t have their house in order either…..have any of the EC/Border teams had age audits?
Flipping Hell, when will this stop? One thing it has done is highlight how important rugby is at school level. It seems to be with sports where size counts. Not sure if this happens with cricket and other sports? What about water polo? Playa tell me the guys from Dale got birth certificates?
Thats not including Griffy and Mr Turner. One year at the KERF festival not one player from Dale had a date of birth in the official programme. Maybe the programme was printed to early 
@Greenwood: How does that “Fool me once, fool me twice” saying go again?
Fair enough – the “Same School again”
but do you guys really think that the management at Glenwood are that stupid to knowingly include an over aged player after the Tom episode ??
I don’t thinks so ……………….
Glenwood involved, what’s new?
Not an EC ‘boy’ this time…
@QC86: Ye looks very funny when its always the same school
Why does the same school keep cropping up?? just asking