The latest media article on KZN school rugby recruitment appeared in the 22 June edition of the Sunday Tribune. There basically wasn’t anything new to offer on a topic that unfortunately is going to eventually lose it’s buzz the more often it gets reported on in the mainstream media. Probably the most interesting bit of information to take out of the report is that the KZN High School Rugby Association and all their affliliate schools will be formulating policy to guide rugby recruitment. It goes on to describe this as a positive attempt by rugby-playing schools to eliminate unfair practices.
Earlier this year the KZNRU HSRA in conjunction with the KZNRU or Sharks as we often like to refer to them, was unable to organise a school rugby day at Kings Park. In spite of their efforts they couldn’t get the major schools to reach agree on a date. Getting schools to agree on a recruitment policy and stick to it may prove far more challenging. In its current shape and form, the powers and independence of the KZNRU HSRA looks certain to be tested as recruitment issues have tended to be very controversial in the past. It could possibly also place the organisation in direct conflict with the KZNRU (Sharks) over the latter’s own school rugby recruitment ambitions and if anything might require a clearer definition and communication from the rugby union on where it stands on this matter of school rugby recruitment.
In addition to this KZNRU HSRA also oversees the KZN youth week selection process. For both the under-18 age KZN Craven Week and Academy Week teams, a set quota of 9 players per squad exists. This year a quick head count shows that as many as 8 of these 18 players comfortably fit he definition of “imported” player. It appears that the failure of the development process in KZN to produce enough suitably talented local players of colour has made the province dependent on “imports” to field competitive provincial youth week teams at under-18 level. KZN is not the only region experiencing this difficulty. It seems like every region North of the Cape coastal belt is finding the 9 players out of 22 per team quota difficult to comply with and still remain competitive. As a result reliance is increasingly being placed on high school recruits to overcome this lack of quality and in some instances the shortage of previously disadvantaged players in their respective regions. Here again it’s worth mentioning that there is a trend linking player acquisitions by schools to their home union’s activity in the areas where these recruits are being sourced from. So this policy does question whether it is in the KZNRU HSRA’s best interests to implement a recruitment guideline that is too strict, as it could ultimate result in the KZN teams being weakened and necessitate more of the (Sharks) rugby union’s funds to be spent on development. Recruitment is a cheaper solution that guarantees far greater success.
@hilton: The U15A result is one for the books!! College U15A recorded their first loss in living memory to House a few weeks back and narrowly beat Hilton a week or two before that after starting well and then taking their foot off the gas and allowing Hilton to almost catch up in the second half. So your lighty and his team can be very pleased with that result. Keeps things interesting.
@GreenBlooded: it was a nice day, thanks. I am a parent only and have no other or historical connection with Hilton so cannot answer on the entrance fees. My understanding is the same as CRC’s.
My day was one of “ups and downs”. My younger boy is in the 15A team, that on the day were devastating. My elder son has just had his first season in 1st team and I can honestly say, even though he is my son, that he is one of the boys that has put his body on the line not missing a single game and putting in more tackles than he would like to remember! Has played with a badly sprained and bruised ankle since College and pinched shoulder nerve without once considering missing a game. Could easily have missed Glenwood, for example, with fair enough reason, but way too proud and commited to even consider that option. But let me not continue on this trend……..
Thanks to all you guys for interesting and thought provoking comments and discussions. Thanks to all the opponent schools and their parents/supporters throughout the season. Looking forward to next year.
@Grasshopper: I am opposed to schoolboys being bought. My son has come up through the ranks and I would take issue with his school if someone is bought to take his place when he hits grade 11/12.
I accept that all schools try and attract the “best” boys coming into grade 8. Just for interest sake, all official Hilton scholarships are handed out at grade 8 level and published in the annual yearbook as I understand. I have heard rumours about old boys paying school fees for certain boys. Cannot comment about truth thereof or not as I don’t know for a fact and am not fortunate enough to be an old boy.
On yesterday’s game, congratulations to MHS and their coaching staff. Were the better team and their backline was deadly. Two players who stood out for them was Pretorius and hooker, Wiseman. Someone at MHS knows rugby. (Ryno) Wiseman converted to hooker and I for one would not be surprised to see him in CW team next year if he keeps playing like yesterday. The Hilton boys played with guts, but rugby is a team sport, will never work if the individuals don’t play as a team. I just hope Hilton have at least some pre-season planning and preparation for next season as opposed to this past season.
Well done to Glenwood, obviously the best team in KZN this season.
Good luck to the boys at CW and Academy Week.
@beet: @hilton: You are correct on SDM. He moved from St Charles for grade 10. He is from Mauritius and has a first cousin in the same grade at Hilton and an uncle who is an Old Boy. His dad is a Westville Old Boy, so we know why he chose Hilton!
@GreenBlooded: Howzit, a few years back I arrived at MHS with a cooler box and no cash, only to be confronted by the money men at the gate. I had to drive to Nottingham rd, and the one ATM wasn’t working, so had to work my magic at the local spar! I got to the game late and pissed off, so on the Monday contacted the school. Their response was quite plausible, security on the day is a large cost, along with some other bits and pieces, with the balance of funds going to charity. HILTON and MHS are in agreement on the costs and process involved. Maybe they should provide and swipe machine at the entrance!
@CRC: Thanks – that answers my question. Same as Glenwood then – but without the negative commentary. I didn’t get near the teas and eats, but nonetheless enjoyed the day immensely.
For the record – I have no problem whatsoever paying an entrance fee to watch schoolboy rugger. Rand for rand – it’s the best value for money entertainment one can get. When I went to the Glenwood vs College games at Glenwood, as a society ref I can enter for free, but nonetheless put R50 in the money-box. I watched 6 quality schoolboy matches that day at a cost of R8.33 per match (or R1.67 per match for those who paid the going rate). Who can argue with that?
@GreenBlooded: As I understand the entrance fee is used to help cover the costs of running the day. I trust you enjoyed the teas and eats, with the balance being paid over to a nominated charity. It is something that both Hilton and MHS do and is not designed to line the pockets of the respective schools.
This is something I found out a few years back and worth sharing I think.
A few years ago Koula a DJ of 5fm ran the Comrades and initiated a charity drive to go along with it. After the race when the accounts were shown to her, she said that she would never have asked people to donate had she know how little of the money collected would end up in the charity’s hands. I think it turned out to be 30c in the R1. The biggest portion went to the cellphone company (who I assume made a profit out of it) and there were different admin costs that were deducted as well. A few years late I found out from a different charity organisation official that this is the norm – the charitable cause itself only gets a percentage often less than 50% of the money people donate, yet this is still better than nothing in his words, so he urges people to continue supporting good causes as they not only help the needy but also provide jobs.
I think if you are really bothered by this and want to be certain that close to 100% of your donation ends up being used for the need, rather obtain the banking details and do a direct deposit or EFT. Don’t go the raffle tickets, gift hampers, diaries, calendars etc route.
@hilton: Eish. I have actually been told about SDM situation before but completely forgot. I’ve changed the comment from 10 to 6 now. Thanks
@hilton: Nice day out in the midlands yesterday for the Michaelhouse derby. What a turnout!! For me, to have Craig Joubert in the middle was rather fitting for the occasion. I do think that Hilton need to up their game in the war-cries department – House again stole the show with their well executed display. The game itself was not what I expected – too many basic errors – but House were by far the better side on the day and the scoreline reflected that.
I have to ask – what happens to the gate money that gets collected? R30 per pedestrian and R70 per car – I’m guessing about 8000 people there yesterday excluding the schoolboys – so R240k just on the pedestrians, maybe another R100k or so on the cars adds up to a nice tidy sum. Does this go to charity or an outreach program of sorts? Glenwood charge R10 per person (we can’t even get all the staff’s cars into the grounds) and there are always moans and groans about it even though it gets donated to the Jess Foord Foundation.
@hilton: Gouws was the Glenwood Under16A captain, ‘enticed’ to Hilton in grade 10 and Calvin Smith (No15) and captain I believe was enticed a few years ago, also grade 10…..nothing much was said by any of the bloggers, it seems only when Glenwood do it is it a problem. Northwood virtually bought a new front row and overseas kids, not much said.
@beet: Hi Beet. Are the two from Hilton, Gouws and De Marigny? De Marigny came to Hilton because of family and personal reasons as far as I know at start of grade 10. I must endorse that I am completely against players being ‘bought’ at school level.
@umbiloburger: In the case of the suspension boy I never claimed wrongdoing on the part of Glenwood, perhaps you misread. Not do I disapprove of recruiting per se, just the method, and at which stage of their career. Just as long as there is the perception that it is ok “sometimes”, or for some people, and the spirit of the signed agreement is not adhered to, the schools that believe the agreements have grey areas should just have the courage of their convictions enough to simply withdraw from the agreements. Greenmasjien seems to have summed it up pretty well – if some think they do it better than everyone else then they should have their own set of rules, just don’t expect everyone else to play along.
But, lets agree to disagree, we are chasing unicorns here. It’s not all bad, the blog will remain an interesting place for discussing each an every new arrival …
Recruitment does have its POSITIVE side.
Opportunities offered and willingly accepted have resulted in the guided growth of raw talent. This changes lives and opens doors for many young players who would never be able to do access similar coaching , conditioning and opportunities.
If you are good enough and work hard enough you will play – this is for the nay sayers that argue ” what about the poor chap that has played in that position since grade 1″
If any institution offers the opportunity , facility and financial support to develope and grow talented youngsters , well then I say WELL DONE TO THEM FOR THEIR GREAT WORK !!!!!!
Be it Glenwood / GCB / Westville / Garsfontein / EGJ.
Those who are not prepared to put their money where the talented youngsters are , or , where their mouths are MUST accept the new reality and embrace what it is that they do offer , If academics be the FOCUS and sport a friendly past time – then a well rounded balanced education with mediocre sport on the feilds is the offer.
@Gungets Tuft: May I respectfully request that we accept that recruiting is unacceptable for some and acceptable for others. Can we also accept that everyone is doing it to some degree.
If I am thinking of the same kid…The matter relating to the 3 match suspension kid again shows how wrong your information is, but based on a perception. Why not ask KGB what actually happened. If he is true to his word he will confirm that after weeks of meetings between the boys parents and that schools HM and HM’s talking to each other, he was released.
The boy went into the GW Elite program, was released to do an exchange in the UK and I believe he is now in the England U17 squad.
@GreenBlooded: hence why Glenwood seriously need to sort their PR out and get someone as an official spokesman. All it takes is one sentence in public, on the website. That squashes all grapevine and around the camp fire stories….
@QC86: You’re catching me at a good moment, I have had my dunce moments this week.
To my mind there are now two agreements in place. The HMA which governs who can and can’t play in KZN after transfers. We have had one high profile transfer (not Glenwood!!) where the receiving school exploited a loophole.
Then we have the Traditional Schools agreement, signed lat last year, which governs those signatories. I think it is a damn fine agreement. In fact, I think they are both fine agreements … but …
If schools do not respect the letter and the SPIRIT of the agreement, and rather try to find loopholes to exploit, then they might as well have printed both on nice fluffy douple ply and used it appropriately. Schools having to explain how they have manoevred around the agreement should worry.
We did see a move, from DHS to Glenwood, reversed this year (or was it last year?). How and why we don’t know, just that it was. The mechanics of it suggest that “underlings” agreed to something that was then over-ruled by people with more authority. That’s the way it should be (well, there should be no need to over-rule, but at least that action was eventually taken)
Then onto the parents …. who surely have some responsibility here. They also make decisions that affect schools. One that I know of – a kid being disciplined and being suspended for 3 games – Dad decided this was not in the kids best interests, so approached another school who took him on without skipping a beat. I wonder what the kid learned out of it …
@QC86: It’s precisely that type of prejudice that’s the problem. Guilty once therefore guilty of any charge that anyone dreams up. I prefer to look at each case in it’s merits. Is the Selbourne lad awake yet? Who from Glenwood made the phone-call? Give us a name.
@Gungets Tuft: Thanx boet,wish there were a few more bloggers like you ,then we would not have to go around and around the same bush.@GreenBlooded: I personally have witnessed 2 of the most horrendous breaches of sportsmanship committed by Glenwood, all at one festival,so please forgive me if i don’t give Glenwood the benefit of the doubt, EVER
@umbiloburger: You don’t think that episodes like Coetsee, Potgieter and King (forget some of the failed moves) formed a foundation on which the case is now being built?
I am not sure it is helpful that you point out that it is just part of a greater problem, the greater problem is what started this thread, so what is needed is solutions, not being a willing cog in the machine.
Grade 10 – while I believe recruitment there is a structural weakness contributing to the whole problem (see the Wright Gambit), is different. There are guidelines that govern that transfer as well, such as the Traditional Schools agreement, signed by all the KZN and EC schools (DHS, Glenwood, Maritzburg College, Northwood, Pinetown, Westville, Queens, Dale, Selbourne). So naturally those contacts have been made for the Grade 10 who has applied, all the courteous stuff done?
“Practices:
• We reject approaching and offering money to boys to allow or encourage them to switch schools. We believe that scholarships (by definition for high academic achievers)and bursaries (for needy children) linked to the admission process should operate at Grade 8 level only
• We believe that after Grade 8 boys should only be admitted to a high school as a result of compelling circumstances (e.g. relocation) and in consultation with the headmaster of the previous school.”
Edit – just seen I cross-posted what GB has said.
@umbiloburger: “Actually the bad name was created by perceptions, shaped by misinformation like the info you have posted….unsubstantiated….. and left for GW to try and defend.”
True in some cases – but certainly not all. The King episode being a recent case in point. That incident DID occur. Glenwood have certainly done some outrageous things and need to take some responsibility for the bad name they have. But a lot of the stories are very misunderstood and/or manufactured by those with an agenda.
@QC86: The personal insults aren’t really neccessary. What would be nice is some detail – like what was the name of the person who made the call. When? What was said. Maybe the lad can provide this detail when he’s up and about. I’ve seen myself the destructive power of car-park gossip and what happens when stories get embellished around the campfire when the 2 past eight is flowing. Not saying this is the case here – but anyone can say “I got a phonecall” and it’s very hard to dispute. That is why hearsay is not admissable in a court of law and why the burden of proof is on the accuser. Like the ‘boys on a plane’ episode – an accusation was made, there was NO evidence to support it, the were NO 3 boys at the school and another little bite was taken.
@umbiloburger: Hang on let me ask him again as he is spending the weekend with us.Now how misinformed are you boet,sorry he is still sleeping so as soon as he wakes i will get written confirmation for you idiots.Smoke and bullshit will only work for so long.
@QC86: Actually the bad name was created by perceptions, shaped by misinformation like the info you have posted….unsubstantiated….. and left for GW to try and defend.
The lad in grade 10 has applied to go to GW, which I believe has to do with the Elite Sports Academy.
Speaking of grade 10’s…..have you ever wondered how GCB take a mediocre U16A team and turn them around into a formidable 1stXV? It’s called recruiting. I have knowledge of 3 Grant Khomo players from 2012 that were approached to join GCB. It happens everywhere. Condonation or condemnation thereof is a personal opinion. I am certain that no school is innocent, including those eastern cape schools.
With the sad state of Border rugby at present, it is no wonder that the elite athletes would want to leave.
Well green give a dog a bad name and with some of the shit your mates have got up to in the past what do you expect
@QC86: With respect, how do you know this? I would imagine a certain amount of hearsay is involved unless you are the kids father who took the call personally. I’m not suggesting you are bending the truth or or are trying to mislead us in any way, but the quandry we have here is that there is this accusation and then a firm denial by who I know to be a high ranking GW staffer. You see – among the gentry on this blog, there mere suggestion of impropriety on Glenwood’s part is normally believed without a second thought because – you know – Glenwood just does that sort of thing. Like what happened with the ‘boys on the plane’ episode.
I just wish UmbiloBurger would tell us where they are hiding these boys, because everyone was damn sure of these facts but after weeks of searching, no-one has managed to uncover them. I’ll let you into a little secret – on the top floor of the old McDonald Rd block, there is a door which leads onto the roof which can be jimmyed open with a screwdriver. Me and a few of my mates used to sneak a skelm smoke there during break. We never ever got caught. I’ll bet you a pound to a pinch of shyte that were they are hiding…..
@Grasshopper: If the story that the boys approached Glenwood is to be 1/2 plausible then Glenwood would be a Le to show that they then contacted the boys headmaster and checked it out, that is a clause in the anti-poaching contract, yes.
It also remains to be explained why he would approach Glenwood if already on scholarship and with an after school contract in place. There are many “why would they do that” questions in the different arguments, so that approach is not going to explain anything. The bottom line is there is actually very little real consequence for bending the rules in the HMA, perhaps a cancelled game here and there, but with a little creativity one can explain anything. I will henceforth call it the Wright Gambit, for reasons everyone knows. Not taking sides or drawing conclusions, just saying …
Guys, guys, guys…why would Glenwood do that? They did it with Marne Coetzee and got tons of flak for it. They certainly not going to do it again. Grade 10 recruitment is still legit within the KZN headmaster agreement so under 16’s are likely to be targeted by all schools. I smell a grapevine rat story. I bet the boy approached Glenwood and changed his story when asked. I just don’t believe the Glenwood headmaster is that stupid. Every KZN school would pull out of fixtures if Glenwood had a new recruit in grade 12, never going to happen…
@umbiloburger: If you read the whole post you will know that nobody said the kid was going,That the approach by Glenwood [phone call] to him was enough to start the ball rolling and the Eastern Cape schools now saying enough is enough.Secondly have you ever heard or seen Glenwood admit to anything that they have done.
Every year GW is pushing the boundaries
@umbiloburger: The Selborne Gr 11 kid who has a sport scholarship and after school contract is not going to GW but was contacted by GW to move there. That means they want him to move in his Gr 12 year.
As confirmed by QC86 on the blog (24June @ 9:36), I have also confirmed this with relevant parties.
@star: @umbiloburger: @GreenBlooded: Selborne kid is NOT moving, he was contacted and made an offer. I haven’t made comments on the Dale boy because I am still trying to get the facts on that one.
I misread Grassy’s question above, I thought he had missed the whole conversation which emanated from QC86’s comment so was just summarising for him.
@ Playa- I think this must be either confirmed or withdrawn with an apology. We are trying to get resolution and possible red herrings just create more confusion.
This is becoming a joke.
@Playa: Sorry playa, but I have asked key people some questions. No one knows of any grade 11 Selborne kid moving to GW. There was talk of a rugby grade 10 boy applying, but that hasn’t happened either. As far as Dale is concerned, the guys I spoke to at GW no nothing about any Dale kid moving. These are all probably just rumors again like the other 3 guys that sat next a PMB lad on a plane that were on their way to GW on 100% scholarships. Problem is that GW knew nothing about them and they never arrived there either.
@Grasshopper:
Read from here:
@QC86:
Basically, Dale & Selborne are in the process of cancelling all sporting relations with Glenwood because certain 1st team players have been contacted by the school and made offers. The Selborne boy is currently in Grade 11, on a full scholarship for cricket and has an after school contract already. Baffling.
@star: which Selborne player going where? I’m not in the know. It will be defeated Star and will apply to all schools :-)
@ Grassy- your assumption was based on certain known facts( ie the inability to play Beeld trophy ) and confirmed by the subsequent contract with the Sharks. Nevertheless the terms of the agreement were as I have reported and so the agreement was not complied with irrespective. This was dealt with clearly in Trevor Hall’s public response
@Playa- I like your comment which went is follows” kids being reeled in grade 11 to add depth to a team is absolutely wrong and kills the educational aspect of school sport. We defeated the post matric era. This too will be defeated….. AMANDLA”. This is exactly what is happening now and so we should all adopt the war cry. The agreement states ” we believe that after Grade 8 boys should only be admitted to a high school as a result of compelling reasons( eg relocation) and in consultation with the previous school.” GW is listed as a signatory last November. Let us see how this plays out in respect of the Selbourne boy and see what honor is left amongst men.
@star: Agree, my post was not based on fact, it was my assumption. I don’t know the full story. I do know that his family was originally from KZN. Do we know for a fact the Headmasters agreement says no Under19 unless been at the school since grade 10. That was probably never documented, who knows.
@star: THE TRADITIONAL STATE BOYS SCHOOLS SPORTS CHARTER signed by 24 schools.
http://blog.schoolboyrugby.co.za/?p=6905
http://blog.schoolboyrugby.co.za/?p=5901
It is interesting that Grassy brings up the Marne issue as it has important connotations to the process at hand. There was a Headmasters agreement that stated that an U19 could not play at a school if he was not there since grade 10. The intent is very clear. There was an obvious exemption in the case of the parents being relocated so as not to compromise the student by factors beyond his control. Grassy has just confirmed what everyone understood and that it was a professional move for the individuals own development. ( does anyone actually know if his parents actually ever moved-although a moot point because it was after the decision was made). Grassy states that the GW headmaster should probably have ” thought a bit more”. How about simply sticking to an agreement and when the issue became a crisis to have the decency to put your case forward in the interests of transparency and accountability. We are debating a current escalation and the solution is to get certain basic rules in place and proper enforcement of them. If certain schools show total disregard then we might as well pack it all in now. Fast forward to the Selbourne issue. Are we sure of all the facts? Is there not a public schools agreement that prohibits such advances. If so who are the signatories and when was it signed. In the Marne incident certain schools stood up while others did not and so the matter was never properly resolved. I will be very disappointed in Selbourne ( if they have a case) if they back down as they will become as much a part of the problem as the instigator. I think the line needs to be drawn somewhere. And this applies to all schools . We all need to stand tall and be counted.
@Umtata: That, my friend, supersedes logic.
@Grasshopper: I think Umtata is referring to the Selborne player
@Umtata: the boy could not play Beeld trophy or make Craven Week as he was Under19. He was genuinely kept back a year early in his schooling due to a remedial issue. His parents obviously thought about it and wanted to ensure he had the best chance to make a provincial Under19 side and maybe the Sharks really needed a tight head. The Bulls might have said we have enough props. So the boy had a year left of academics to complete but needed to keep game fit and near to the Sharks Under19 training if needed. The boy and his parents then probably looked at the boarding schools in KZN he could join. College was too far from Durban, Westville’s boarding facilities are limited. Glenwood could easily accommodate him and with relations built at tournaments with Waterkloof, it was probably a no brainer. Also, probably half if the Glenwood BE is Afrikaans home language so would help him settle quicker. The Glenwood headmaster obviously was not going to say No to a player of that calibre. But probably should have thought about it a bit more….
What I fail to understand is why a school with 1000+ boys would want to pouch a player in his grade 11 year. Same school is said to have great coaching at all levels and a good rugby program.
Yes a lot of schools are not “clean” but you seldomly hear about other schools getting SA schools players to come and play in their matric year.
@Gungets Tuft: I don’t think your comment about the boys who are coerced to join a certain club was directed at us good folk who give our time and effort to club rugger – rather at those doing the coercion so no foul on my side. There have certainly been some self-interest incidents that you allude to but as you later point out – the good far outweighs the bad so don’t beat yourself up…….
@Pedantic: Ja, I apologize unreservedly to the people who give their time and talent to club rugby. My reaction was due the situation a year back where there was self interest in some areas, and the recent uproar about kids being directed to one club. Like you said, over reaction to what I heard on Saturday at Westville. My second post would be my preferred stance
@beet: Agree with bringing the issues to everyone’s attention but that needs to go hand in hand with an undertaking by everyone to not explain their own sins away. All I see here is “Glenwood are bad bad people, I know we do the same things but in our case it’s justifiable because he had a rolled ankle / his daddy was an old boy / his parents relocated / he was from a local school so no upheaval / he was properly acclimatised type excuses.
So as long as the finger pointers are happy to keep disregarding the 3 fingers pointing back, I’ll keep myself at the ready with my “Hypocrit” stamp.
@Gungets Tuft: Yeah that previous comment was kinda out of character from you – more hearsay than fact.
As everything rugby, there will be controversy, but the good in youth club rugby far outweighs the bad and to get the KZNRU to acknowledge that took a decade of hard work from some very dedicated people.
A lot of tier 2 school talent is unveiled through the club rugby season, so much so that some high profile tier 1 schools will be on the lookout at the IPT – of that I can guarantee.
@star: The differences are not glaring – they are glaring only when you have a need to shoe-horn into a specific agenda. Both schools played a boy at the KERF who had never spent a day in the classroom at the school. It was offensive when Westville did it. It was offensive when Glenwood did it. Your attempt to explain the Westville case away using minor incidental detail is a joke. Both incidents to me show the same intentions by both schools and they are both deplorable.
@Gungets Tuft: What distinguishes the youth club rugby scene is very strong leadership and a strong umbrella body to which each member club is subordinate. With a few exceptions, issues are dealt with expediently and people are generally in it for the right reasons – although as you have noted there are a few bad eggs. We are COUNTRY MILES ahead of the schools in terms of player safety, Boksmart compliance and spectator control at the various tournaments which rotate from club to club every Sunday. Issues of discipline, both in respect of coaches, players and spectators are dealt with under the DRSU code of conduct – the same as for any senior club, and there have been many cases of coaches, players and a spectator receiving suspensions. We have all had issues with the leadership at times, as it can be downright autocratic – but for the most part it is correct and when one stands back and looks from the outside it is for the greater good. You are correct – mostly good people with their hearts in the correct place and putting in loads of energy and time into the organisation. It is fitting that the KZNRU have, after many years of campaigning, finally bestowed colors on the players who will represent us at the IPT in Maritzburg in October – these players previously played in the colors of the DRSUYCA.
@Ploegskaar: Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of really good people involved at junior rugby, they give massive amounts of time, put in a huge effort. Last thing I want to do is make out that is it a cesspool, it’s not. And by a long, long way the good outweighs the poor. Like anything there are people in it for reasons other than promoting the cause of rugby, but lots of dedicated people involved. I an NOT involved, so perhaps I should shut up and let the good men and women get on with it, quite a few of them watching this blog and trying to find out where I live ….
@Gungets Tuft: Ag nee, seems everything junior rugby related in KZN goes to poop. Fortunately, at senior level, you have had a great system in place for years: your youngsters leave for other provinces (who can blame them), while you import untainted GCB lads that are unaffected by all the politics. Has been working well, as long as you can keep your schools/junior and senior rugby separated, heaven forbid some of those creepy crawly’s at junior level slither into the upper echelons.
@beet: @Ploegskaar: You okes really know how to start a thread going again. If anything is more incestuous than school rugby it is the KXN youth club scene. Escalate the recruiting there any further and they will be harvesting body parts …. and that’s leaving out the politics and nepotism I have heard of.
Ploegie – sorry bru, just saw your follow up, must be a big disappointment ….. but school players being told that they “must” turn out for certain clubs etc … no improvement.
@beet: Is it an amateur set-up? Can they choose which club they want to represent and are there trials involved? Sounds like a great opportunity to unearth some previously unrecognized talent, in the absence of school politics, favouritism etc. How many club options do the boys have available?
@Ploegskaar:
The lucky ones get to play youth club rugby. It has actually become even more attractive now as boys stand the chance of earning KZN colours at the end of the season
@beet: Well put Beet. Parents have a freedom of choice to choose a different school for a child, for whatever reason. There could be many. If they decide to move though, they need to abide by any agreement that limits a boy’s prospects as a rugby player. That needs to be a factor when considering changing schools.
@star: Contacts made at schools, all of them, are highly over-rated. Rather go to a school with some entrepreneurial spirit (rather than old {or Nouveau riche} money), where mates get together to start something. Daddy seldom invites his son’s mates into the inner circle. If that’s your motivation for sending your kid to a private, rather save the cash, send him to a hard-knocks school and give him the balance as startup cash for a business .. .like a tow truck f’rinstance ..
@beet: What do the rugby players in these soccer schools do during the 3rd term? Can’t they be drafted in to add value at the rugby schools? I see some merit for a 3 – 4 game fixed contract burst?
@ Grassy- you maybe surprized but wealth does not necessarily equal connectivity
@ Beet- You mentioning the risks of being the first person to stand down brought back memories at school where a group of us were making a noise after the bell. When the question was asked I was the only one that responded and took the full wrath of Mr Couzen’s whip. That is when you know who your friends are
@Pedantic: nope but it well known at the privates you mixing with the wealthy…..
@Grasshopper: @Pedantic: The season is done for many KZN schools. I wonder if the father can be persuaded to share his reasons for his decision.
@Grasshopper: I’m positive he was on a GW scholarship anyways, so no saving there. Are you telling us in a roundabout way that GW old boys don’t make good business contacts ?
@Pedantic: Splitting brothers was crazy, especially leaving the younger one behind at Glenwood. The older one is now stuck in a mediocre side when he could have been in a very strong side. But it’s a tough decision, if the older one got a full bursary they would have saved R30k a year for Glenwood fees. The older boy will most likely write IEB exams and get numerous business contacts etc from his new school. Sometimes in life it’s who you know not what you know….
I also wanted to say that in anything and everything we should respect the decisions of the parents to move their kids to whatever school they see fit. This should never be restricted by any rugby rule.
However all parents also have to understand and abide by the rules of a school and any rules that oversee the game of SBR.
For example a parent can move his son to school X but he can’t decide that he wants his boy to start at 9am everyday and that Boksmart should not apply to him. In KZN that parent also has to accept the conditions of the Headmaster’s Agreement.
That’s why I believe that any rule to counter rugby poaching/recruitment should be aimed at removing the incentive to move from rugby related reasons, rather than restricting the right / freedom of choice.
@umbiloburger: At no stage did I even hint at the fact that I thought College might be squeeky clean, nor did I single out a school, unless my comment about what happened to the boy displaced by MC counts.
My comments are all generic and apply to all schools. Your’s are apparently not. Perhaps it’s just me, but in this case saying nothing is much more damaging than spilling the beans, since there is now the “horrified if you knew ..” little statement that hangs around. It’s cleverly done, because basically it is true unless refuted.
Try putting your instant outrage aside, taking a breath, and reading my comments again. I am suggesting remedies to a poaching situation, not punitive measures against anyone. Once you have read back, then perhaps argue why you feel I might be wrong, rather than just conceding defeat (it always has happened and it always will happen.)
@umbiloburger: Completely agree, I’m not sure why as soon as the poaching / recruitment issue comes up, the GW bloggers feel the need to react and defend their school – the issue is most certainly not limited to GW (Although they seem to do the most blatant things).
WRT the brother left behind – if we are referring to the same family, I have been following with interest for the past couple years and it was Glenwood who were the victim in this case.
With hindsight, I can’t help but think that it may not have been the best move for the boy concerned in terms of his rugby future, and definitely not a great family decision to split the brothers. IMO this lies squarely on the shoulders of the parents – maybe the private school carrot was too good to turn down.
@GreenBlooded: I think this is the biggest obstacle in the way of progress. This stalemate that’s been created by first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
I seriously doubt any KZN school is willing to risk cleaning up their act 100% in the hopes that their rivals will follow suit. Progress will only be made if there is a joint agreement. Ceasefire. No more arms race.
Until then we actually need people like Star and others bringing attention to the issues.
@ Greenblooded- I would agree if the issue was black and white but it is unfortunately not. The comments above are indicative of this fact. And in this quagmire opportunists emerge and then it becomes a matter of degree. The King incident is prime example. You mentioned the Westville boy as a counter argument. However on closer inspection you will find glaring differences. King was identified at a Cape tournament ( problem as the credibility of the tourno gets compromised), gets flown up to fill a short term gap, gets ” homesick” and is back at the original school a few days later. Is he better off for the experience? Was any thought given to his needs or what effect this may have on his mindset. Or was it just GW first and bugger the rest. You be the judge. The Westville boy was from a local school( Tier 3) and therefore no upheaval. Because of the proximity he would have been gradually/properly introduced( possibly meetings with parents/other team mates. ) He certainly would not have met his teammates for the first time as he ran out on the field. The boy is then properly acclimatised and enjoys a successful 2 years at a tier 1 school which would have developed his skills to the full. Although you argue that they had both not been in a classroom before KERF can you honestly not see the difference. This is the degree I talk about and which people object to. The Marne incident was another classic example of pushing the boundary and putting pressure on the headmasters agreement. We are trying to bring the parties closer together not further apart.
@meadows: I can’t agree more with the downward spiral outcome. I can see this coming.
@star: I think that your arms race analogy is apt. At some point – hopefully ahead of the inevitable downward spiral – a degree of introspection needs to be applied i.e. “is it worth alienating schools with whom there are longstanding relationships in pursuit of a top 10 rather than a top 20 ranking?”
I can’t believe that poaching a few players in grade 10 is going to have much more impact than that so why on earth do it given the consequential damage.
I’d like to think that the reaction by the MHS community to the post matric abuse in the late 90’s that threatened traditional relations can serve as a good example of prioritisation and self regulation.
@star: But do you agree that unless you are 100% squeaky clean then you cannot point fingers? Because if you are not 100% innocent and you point fingers then it can only be a jealously thing. It can’t be a moral / ethical objection.
@ Umbiloburger- I don’t think Nick is a good example as it was an after school move( Post Matric) but it did create a bit of heat from old rivals Hilton. By the way it was 1979.
No one is arguing innocence here. But you have to ask questions of a school that is constantly in the headlines. The old saying about where there is smoke cannot be more apt. GW just constantly push boundaries and I believe now holds the national record for schools that has at some point withdrawn or are threatening to withdraw relations. At last count it was 5 ( Hilton,Westville,DHS,Selbourne and Dale). Are all these ” great ” schools just jealous of GW?. To say so is just a monumental deflection of the real facts. GW has just taken it to the next level and like in any arms race it just creates the downward spiral that we are now witnessing, And just an aside. You have gone on at length about the superior coaching/conditioning at GW( although I am not sure how you can comment on other schools). My question is then why with the top grade 8 intake matched with the best support system, does GW feels the need to top up each year. Surely that is the true test of the system that you so vigorously promote.
@Playa: largely, it will, and here lm talking “inter provincial” poaching
@Gungets Tuft: I have read heaps of comments on ethics or the lack thereof at schools and I have realized, with the utmost respect, how ignorant some people are.
You would be horrified if you actually knew what your beloved school has done in the past decade. My respect for the Red, Black and White prevents me from airing my deeper knowledge on their doings. Perhaps one day when and if we ever meet I will explain. The mildest of course is offering flights from the Eastern Cape, which never happened (poor kid has to travel by bus as his parents can’t afford the flight).
And what about the school on the hill? Top player poached from a DBN school. However what they didn’t realize is that the top player had a younger brother at school with him, who was left behind as he wasn’t of the same calibre. Without divulging to much, the poor brother is now a distraught individual battling to cope with life!!!!
And I could go on. Every school is at fault somewhere. We all disagree with poaching…..but to single out any 1 school is purely vindictive as no school is innocent in this regard. From the days of Frolic who left School for a year at MHS in 1978 until the recent 3 non-arrivals at GW, it always has happened and it always will happen.
I think a lot of the boys are signed in their standard 9 year, with the consent of their parents.
To me, you should not sign anything until after CW – reason being, your market value can go up should you excel at the competition with the result that the Unions will be out in numbers for your signature.
I personally feel there is sod all point of signing anything until the premier schools rugby competition, CW, is completed and you are in your final year of schools rugby
@Gungets Tuft: Precisely!!!
As I understand it the professional unions may not contract a player under the age of 18. It seems though that the unions use some schools as proxies and actually do the scouting and negotiation on behalf of schools with whom they have some sort of arrangement.
Schoolboy rugby is supposed to be amateur and IMO so it should remain. If a schoolboy rugby player is contracted directly, or indirectly through some sort of back to back arrangement between a school and the local union, he should be declared professional and banned from the amateur schoolboy game.
Unions and agents should not be allowed to have any contact directly with amateur players and/or their parents except for a draft “window” post Craven Week. The draft process should also be transparent and regulated – much like the NFL – to manage the transition from amateur to professional.
Perhaps if clear and transparent guidelines for sporting scholarships are legislated and aspects like “pocket money”, and unsolicited approaches after Grade 8 deemed illegal it may limit some of the behavior that is causing such animosity. Sure some unethical operators will try and exploit loopholes but if they are subject to a formal peer review and some fairly draconian sanctions for contravention they may think twice.
Genuine moves can be dealt with by exception and on their merits and I don’t believe that a boy should be prejudiced in such a situation by either not being able to play rugby or not being able to obtain financial support if it is available. The increasing “shamteurism” in schoolboy rugby is threatening to undermine the entire ethos of sport at schools level and damage relationships that are in some instances over a century old.
I saw an article written not so long ago by Tank Lanning in which he suggested that increasing professionalism at schoolboy level was in fact undermining the development of skills, through a focus on win at all costs, low risk, kick and chase rugby, and was ultimately detrimental to the skills development required for success in the professional game. He compared our schools approach to that of NZ insofar as skills development is concerned. It is an interesting perspective and not without merit IMO.
@Gungets Tuft: Just imagine if Zulu’s enjoyed rugby ahead of soccer, KZN would probably be the rugby powerhouse of the country. I remember in form 4 asking a friend of mine Victor Tsewu to start playing rugby, he was short, stocky and had powerful legs. Within 2 years he was playing 1st team prop & KZN Schools…
@Playa: Agree with that too. The intra-KZN school poaching has not involved many “quota” players. The approaches by KZN schools to the EC and Border is a search for talent, not quota’s because quota’s don’t exist at school level. Insulting in the extreme to suggest that the black players at College are quota’s, same for what I have seen at Glenwood, Westville. In the case of DHS, I think they shop in the EC because of their current inability to draw players from the very competitive (both performance and bursary point of view) schools in Durban.
@BOG: Union assisted poaching…definitely a product of the quota system. Quotas are definitely not the cause for schools’ own aggressive poaching. Fact – removing quotas WILL NOT ELIMINATE POACHING
@Gungets Tuft: Spot on!
How did my wife always say, when my kids were toddlers? Round-a-round-the -garden, up— IF EVERY SCHOOL GETS ITS HOUSE IN ORDER, AND QUOTAS ARE STOPPED, POACHING (in whatever form) WILL CEASE !!! SIMPLE!!!
@GreenBlooded: “Humans are despicable creatures. In business, sport or any other endeavour, we will do whatever it takes to survive or be better than the next guy. Or to have a swimming pool that is a foot longer and wider than the guy next door.”
Not all of us … and not you, unless I am a hopeless judge of character.
Simple guidelines about how approaches to schools and kids will be judged. If the kids and approaching schools then collude to lie about it then they deserve each other. Parents sign a legal agreement to repay scholarships if they leave, unless the school doesn’t care about it.
Then the Headmasters meetings take care of the rest, if a school acts outside the guidelines they need to explain to their peers. If shame doesn’t take care of it then the man is measured …
@Gungets Tuft: 100% ethical behavior from the schools – let’s be honest, it isn’t going to happen. When one school bends the rules by 0.5 degrees to get a small advantage, the next guy will bend it by 1 degree. Who do we blame when the sail starts luffing? The guy who did it first?
You’ll be amazed at how rugby coaches find innovative ways to bend the laws of the game to gain a slight advantage, then the laws get tweaked to compensate and before long we have an over-legislated game. Same thing.
Humans are despicable creatures. In business, sport or any other endeavour, we will do whatever it takes to survive or be better than the next guy. Or to have a swimming pool that is a foot longer and wider than the guy next door.
Your Utopian idea is admirable – I think it was sort of like that when I was at school – but in today’s world it just ain’t gonna happen. Unfortunately.
@Gungets Tuft: I understand what you are saying. I still believe that it could be regulated in some way. If you have to present a certificate from your Dept of Education to move school in the same province/ town, it will make it more difficult for schools to poach
@kosie: Legislation wont do it. Laws create loopholes. The constitution will not allow law to prevent kids moving, they will dress it up as kids exercising freedom to choose. Then, when the loophole is presented, the unethical use it as a smokescreen.
@Gungets Tuft: The only way the present situation regarding inter school recruitment will change is if there is a change in legislation that prohibits inter school poaching.
If left to schools to root out inter school/province transfers, the system will fail. Each school does what it thinks is right for its own survival. Therein lies the problem. No common goal.
Therefore until the system forbids inter school/province recruitment, the practise will continue. We are all part of the present system and the question is, do we want to change the present system or are we okay the way we do business
@Gungets Tuft: Agree 100%
@McCulleys Workshop: it’s quite simple I do not support recruitment after grade 8 at any school.
@Sinies: I think everyone knows, but find a way to water it down as “providing opportunity” or something similar. Bottom line, if a school approaches a player at another school then they have already crossed the line. Even if an agent approaches a school the first conversation must be with the management of the school, and only then the parents. You speak to a boy, you’ve behaved unethically, finish and klaar. If a boy or his family approach, you tell them that if the conversation starts, it starts with the school management involved.
I understand that boys and their parents might start looking around, they need to stop hedging their bets as well, and not negotiable if they are on scholarship, by talking to their school about their intentions.
Bottom line for me, if a school contacts a boy at another school unsolicited, it’s wrong.
@Gungets Tuft: Maybe not. If you have not defined “ethical”, you have left it up to everybody to interpret it for themselves. It seems to me that is the actual problem. There is no definition for “ethical” in this regard.
@Redblack White: Except that approach will kill the likes of House who are not easily able to play club rugby, being an hour away from a decent sized town.
And as long as schools market themselves using rugby, the competition will still be there to recruit the next level of promising schoolboy. All it will do, unless the mindset changes, is move recruitment “down” one level.
Who knows, perhaps it will deapen the pool of players, because the cream of the drop will get exposed at club level, school rugby will allow those who were previously in the shadow of the high achievers to develop.
But in the end, and we’ll never get away from it, the solution is 100% ethical behaviour from the schools. As long as there are cell phone messages left for promising boys, and Sunday afternoon visits for “chats”, this issue will remain. Everything else is just lipstick on the pig.
@Redblack White: Actually exactly the proposal I was trying to lead to. Make a professional league and an amateur league. Amateur league you can allow jerseys, boots and sack to be sponsored externally for the team, not individuals.
@McCulleys Workshop: Ja – this Ad Hominem approach doesn’t really work with me. Deal with the arguments and the issues – don’t attack the person.
I stand by what I said right at the beginning – despite being crucified by those who picked up on a juicy incidental detail which had no relevance to the point.
@Sinies: How about an alternative where SBR remains completely amateur – BUT we start professional u17/18/19 clubs. Kids from anywhere are drafted into these pro clubs but still attend school at their school of choice (or where the clubs wish to place them) but are not allowed to represent their school. What will happen is that the real hotshot pro’s to be will end up in a super league, but SBR rugby will return to its good old self. In addition, clever team sculpting will have to begin back at gr 8 level with a build up to senior level. Problem solved. The real potentials will end up being “developed” into the players of the future without tainting the image and integrity of good ole fashioned SBR. Poaching will be by the clubs from schools but will not affect the schools. Naturally your CW players will all be from the club, or else we will all know that the clubs are missing atrick or the schools are pulling a fast one. Either way, schoolboys with potential will get their chance to play at the level where they fit best , but SBR will be for SBR players, not souped up semi-pro’s.
In any event – good topic – another 600 odd comments and we will surpass the Affies/Garsies cancelled match thread – believe it okes – that one’s still going – da da da dad da – I’m lovin’ it!!!!
@Grasshopper: This is what is so entertaining about the loudest GW bloggers, you cannot see your alma maters fault, no actually you do, you confess your hatred of it, then side step (you like that inclusion of running rugby phraseology Topic Monitor?) and out rolls your semi (not the hard version) justification by crying foul as to how hard done by you are I’m confused? It’s a bit like our Oscar, Did you pull the trigger, “No my Lady” well who pulled the trigger ” I don’t know my lady” was the gun in your hand “yes my lady”. It was also Northwood my Lady, and DHS my lady, why are we being unfairly picked on, KES also tried my Lady, we can’t help ourselves my Lady, and the best, our esteemed leader would never have done anything that didn’t have some long term benefit my Lady, we just don’t know what the benefit is yet my Lady.
I have read through all the comments and agree that the concentration of rugby into a few schools is killing SRB. However, with regards to “recruiting”/”poaching” I propose a completely different scheme. I am not that clued up, but I believe it is similar to the SARB rules.
The logics behind the proposal is this: you either make rugby professional, or amateur. If it is amateur, no rewards, bursaries, whatever in any form is allowed. If you make it professional, you cannot target children under 16 years of age (child labour). Therefore any form of reward for the child or his parents before age 16 is not allowed, after that, he is fair game.
If you really want, you can limit the maximum number of rewarded children per team, but why do that if you are professional?
@Tjoppa: no, I ” where” not.
In terms of all the heated debates, all roads lead to Rome….whoops sorry Glenwood. Again nothing mentioned of Northwood, Hilton & Westville’s blatant recruitment at higher levels…
@star: Kebble example – good point. The rest – BS.
@star: crazy stuff, and all this flapping of arms and spit flying – one would think it would at least be in the interest of world domination, not hanging on to a top ten national position, nails out! Does narcissist ring a bell?
@Grasshopper: yes, you correct on boys only schools or mixed like Paarl Gim. Anyway, a gifted jnr rugby player will be targeted by most high schools. The preference of parents and bursary for school and/or hostel fees the norm, think schools should stick to that.
Unfortunately as stated earlier they do now offer clothing, pay for tours, etc and that is where some parents will change their minds on where the child must go to. Presume part and parcell of modern times, still recruitment from u13 perfect and those in the cape like bois high succeed in it, good for them. The grade 10 up is not recruitment, that’s poaching.
@Rugbyman: why not PBHS then?
@Rugbyman: From when on is Affies “outside Pretoria”. Maybe the only method to be the no 1 rugby school “in” Pretoria. Cmon Boepens this is really taking the fight to Affies.
@BOG: Where you ever close to a school?
@ Greenblooded- you state” TK is not a reckless fool who just bulldozers his way through a china shop. He would not have risen to where he is if that were not so”. Do you honestly think this is the only way people rise to certain positions. In my personal experience ( think Kebble) it was a mix of ruthlessness and self aggrandizement that were the key issues and the collateral damage was extreme to the extent that I am still picking up pieces. This is obviously an extreme example but with regard to our schools and SBR there is a lot at stake and so I put it on the table. Have you ever even remotely considered the possibility that these so called GW bigots might be trying to help GW and more importantly the bigger picture which involves a long chain and an abyss. ” We” might not be the real enemy you think we are. Especially ou Ploegie who was just being honest and forthright about how he felt. Talk about shooting the messenger.
@Roger: No sorry roger… Only saw your post now… We have to play in the Pretoria league so those fixtures get preferential treatment… We do organise friendlies for our lower teams frequently though for schools outside pretoria like Kempton, Monnas and Affies in the old days… We also play with our lower teams against the smaller schools’ A-teams
@Rugbyman: you ignoring me?
@Anonymous: So what coach or teacher are you at DHS?
@GreenBlooded:
Thank you for withdrawing the comment the facts behind it were incorrect.
@beet: lm not close to the school or have a child there, so I’m not familiar with contractual obligations by the parents. All I can say, is that any boy who leaves gcb, with whatever offer from elsewhere, must have his head read. And as the selection of schoeman has proven, it is possible for third team players to make it into the cw side. No, I ( with my prejudices) cannot see that any school will succeed in enticing away players. Apart from post metrics and that has stopped.
@slinger: Thanks, it could also come down to parents choice over Co-ed or single sex school. I think Afrikaans schools have generally been Co-ed so some families might see that as traditional for them. It seems to be competitive everywhere now…..decisions are being made on the smallest of incentives….
@Grasshopper: Paul Roos actually not the agressive recruiter, Bois High by far. They always end up with the most u13 Cravenweek players. Paarl Gim campaign hard but not as successful as Bois High. The last 2 years Tygerberg was the most agressive in the Northern suburbs, especially from neighbours. Stellenberg also campaigning hard in jnr levels. Southern suburbs think Rondebosch on a recruitment drive.
Again, happy with recruiting from u13 levels, has always been there. To answer your question, no think Paul Roos in the middle of the pack. They do seem to get strong players and pick up CW players, but not as agressive on the recruitment as other schools.
@Grasshopper: If you go read the thread on the affies garsies story you will find a new guy complaining about garsfontein recruiting primary school boys which is 8km away… so some people even find fault with that…
@slinger: I heard Paul Roos is the most aggressive recruiter at grade 8 level, literally pulling in the best from the Northern Suburbs…correct? Again, nothing wrong with recruitment at grade 8 level so this is not an attack on Paul Roos..
FRoger: Fantastic Roger, would be sad if future derbies will be affected. Again and without repeating myself, the threat of poaching (correct story or not in KES case) is a real threat for future long standing derbies between schools.
@Ploegskaar: Whatever dude. Not interested in your rating of my reply either. For the record I thought it was above average – but that’s just me. Last response you’ll get from my unethical immoral Glenwood self so don’t bother with your tit for tat reply.
@Rugbyman: why don’t you play KES, Jeppe, PBHS etc – all those schools put out 24 teams?
@slinger: Same in Pretoria… 95% of the boys are u18… We dont have an overage problem and the post matric thing doesnt happen anymore
@beet: I think if you read the statement carefully you will see that the schools have agreed to deal with the matter internally – there will be no further public utterances from SACS or KES. Sorry
@GreenBlooded: That’s a very very average reply, you say you will not be judged and then place me “firmly” in you group of anti-GW bigots? No irony there. But you are correct, it is a futile discussion, if only for your disregard what you can’t digest philosophy.
@Ploegskaar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Kh-YycKPc
@Roger: “An understanding has been reached”, does not really say much. The known information suggests KES is guilty of assisting in poaching and contrary to what the KES letter states, it wasn’t the media or social media that found the story, it was SACS who delivered the message. Ideally for this matter to be cleared up in KES’s favour now, SACS has to come forward and state they were wrong in their initial accusations.
@Ploegskaar: Not sure how many times I have said it, but I DO NOT agree with recruitment after the grade 8 intake. I also DO NOT agree with poaching from a local school. Simples….
@GreenBlooded: Yeah, that is a tough one. I don’t see why they cannot play for their future high school team. In my day we had a couple of boys from Carmel College play for us as Carmel didn’t offer rugby. Obviously parents must have signed indemnity forms etc. Not sure how this was communicated to other schools. We even had boys from Open Air school play….
@Grasshopper: Deflecting and diverting once again. Is there a clear difference between what GW stood for pre-mid 2000’s and now? Yes or no. Are the values of GW and the memories of GW that you hold dear, still relevant? Yes or no. Having been or being at GW does not make you unethical or amoral, buying into the way they operate and condoning it does. I am not knocking your school buddy, I am questioning your morals. And that’s not about the school you attended, its about who you are today. Capish?
@umbiloburger: That’s quite interesting about GCB’s u14 age group. Considering the quality they have in higher age groups as well, it’s a surprise a few B-team players don’t move later on as well.
@Ploegskaar: Dude – quite frankly I couldn’t care less for your opinion of me. With that ridiculous hissy-fit @Ploegskaar: you placed yourself firmly in my group of anti-Glenwood bigots. I will not be judged by you. Sail on boet. All respect for you is lost.
@slinger: refer Dave Lovetts statement on Twitter, FB and the school website re: the SACS KES issue. This was not swept under the carpet and both chairmans of the GB are dealing with the issue. I believe an understanding has been reached. Not all that smells is snoek!
@Grasshopper: The U19’s not being allowed to play issue is an interesting one. There is a very similar and potentially explosive issue bubbling in Primary School Rugby which is increasingly coming to the fore – that of U14 players who are pretty much in the same boat. These are typically players who either started school a year late or who did a remedial year somewhere down the line and end up as U14’s in Gr7. Primary School rugby is age-banded as U13 – so these players cannot play, although I have found that there are some that are surreptitiously included in teams which go undetected unless the referee checks (I ALWAYS Do) or an objection is lodged.
The high school age-band was extended to 3 years (U17/U18/U19) for the same reason – a schoolboy can’t be denied the right to play rugby – but clearly this would be dangerous to do at primary school level (U12/U13/U14). So do these U14’s take a year off rugby? Do they go and play at their future High School (big issues with that)? What do they do?
@Ploegskaar: Boet, GB made a mistake by mentioning that. We are all human here. GB is a genuinely nice guy and wouldn’t say anything like that maliciously….let’s move on…
@GreenBlooded: I am casting no aspersions or generalisations about the type of pupil Glenwood produces, that’s your stuff.
@GreenBlooded: Oh yes, all boys coming out of Glenwood are immoral and unethical, I forgot about that…even the Rhodes, Smuts and Elsie Ballot scholarship winners…
@GreenBlooded: The fact that you “mentioned this as an anecdote to illustrate a point” smacks of glibness and disregard. There is no way that you can convince me that it was justified, other than that you were once again so dead set on diverting and deflecting that you grabbed at the closest straw without thinking it through. If ever you and the rest of the GW bloggers have had an opportunity for introspection, this is it. Think about all the happenings of the past few years at GW, how they responded and how it has been defended and condoned here. Don’t stake your reputation on the honour of the lady if you know she is a prostitute, it does not make you a gentleman, merely a pimp.
@McCulleys Workshop: @Ploegskaar: Look we are all human and from time to time we need reminding that things we sometimes say are insensitive to others.
I honestly don’t think the comment should be taken out of context. It was in no way intended to be hurtful but rather to illustrate a point.
Those references will be now be edited because of sensitivity.
@Rugbyman: Although they known as u19 it is 95% u18. The few boys who struggled academically along the way are 100% allowed to play without a fuss. The post matric thing few and far between nowadays in the western cape, we also dont make issues of it.
@Grasshopper: Well you wouldn’t know would you? You also went to Glenwood……
@Grasshopper: The over age issue remains prevalent and will continue until the guilty / ignorant schools are severely penalised.
Do any schools make use of external auditors to annually varify ages ?
I’m aware of four U18 boys (from 2 schools) that were found playing as U16 this season. The one found out at Kzn trials and the other three removed due to the opposing school insisting on receiving all players birth certificates prior to the game.
So at best the internal auding process not working for these schools (and most likely many other schools) and at worst they are fielding these players intentionally in order to improve results.
In both instances I am not aware of the players being penalised in any way.
@GreenBlooded: Anybody who knows you knows you are not unethical, the complete opposite…..water over a ducks back…
@McCulleys Workshop: Do you also agree that I’m a typically unethical and immoral product of Glenwood High School??? What a crock.
@Ploegskaar: I stand by the principle that local traditional derbies will be under threat if poaching of players happen. I condemn any actions by anybody who does not respect long standing relationships to poach 1 or 2 players as stated in my previous posts. That should answer your question.m
@GreenBlooded: Messianic Complex?
@Ploegskaar: Hi Ploeg, I agree with your sentiment re the *** DHS pupil – well posted.
@Pedantic: I’m not saying anything. I’m trying to rationalise what is happening and what the thinking is behind the what is happening at Glenwood and why they are doing the things they are doing. TK is not a reckless fool who just bulldozes his way through a china shop. He would not have risen to where he is if that were so. He has clearly calculated his path carefully and has big plans and visions for Glenwood. My questions are only that – questions – to try and connect his thinking to what many are calling unethical / immoral blah blah blah shenanigans.
@beet: A fact from GCB is that after their U14A trials are complete they lose several players that never made the grade to the likes of Monnas and Garsfontein and other schools in the Vaal region. Parents who feel their kid is the next bok send their kid to GCB, that’s why the have almost 45 CW players to start with.
@slinger: What is your opinion on Mr. v Niekerk and way he goes about his business?
@beet: I read your comment, but even that will be discrimination in my opinion…
Interesting fact about the TUKS series is that a motion was presented to allow u/19s again, with rules in place that they must NOT be post matric… A post-matric is someone who passed his matric exam and then goes back to school the next year… A practice of the 90s and early 2000s which is not in use anymore due to professional rugby at u19 level… The unions want a good u19 player and theres no reason for him to go back to school….
Funny that nobody in the Cape region complains about u19s… Their 1st teams are all known as u19A…
@beet: That was one of the key reasons Marne Coetzee moved, he was not allowed to play in Beeld trophy games as he was Under19, so he found a school in KZN probably offering him a full bursary.
@Ploegskaar: “They are a true reflection of the unethical and amoral depths that their school has plumbed.” Tsk Tsk Tsk. Not the sort of comment I’ve come to expect from you. I mentioned this as an anecdote to illustrate a point I was making – which was about the overage issue, not the***. Try and get a grip – maybe re-reading my original blog with a clear head would help. Frankly, you and ou Anon have drawn far more attention to this than I did and what I ever intended.
@Anonymous: Do I have proof? How would I? I don’t have proof that Tom was overage either. Or Payi. Or that Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. What I do know is that at the time, the issue was discussed here and I also received an email from a blogger and no-one disputed it at the time. If that was all incorrect then I withdraw the comment.
DPloegskaar:@Ploegskaar: For the record, I’m a big fan of Boland Landbou. As stated it does happen but not to the extend what is happening in KZN. Jaco was definately not just about rugby, Gavin and Ruan was and is much better of playing top schools week in week out than staying at Brackenfell. t. My comment clearly s from smaller schools to bigger schools who offer much more exposure in Gavin and Ruan’s case. Again Boland Landbou not in the smaller school class, therefore even the Jaco move I will never support for reasons as per my previous posts.
@Tjoppa: Tjoppa, I agree mostly with you, but I must state for a fact that our rugby numbers have increased significantly… We used to be able to field 10 teams 4 years ago and can now comfrtably field 16 and even up to 18 teams… A growth of 60+%
It is up to the rugby management at the school to ensure that the kids in the lower teams receive proper coaching and sufficient games… They need to be looked after properly and need to feel as important as the player in the a-team! That unfortunatley is where the problem lies… Many schools dont care about their lower teams and thats what causes boys to stop playing… The only school in Pretoria that can offer all our c-teams games (and I exclude Affies for obvious reasons) is Waterkloof, and even they only go to a 4th team with their seniors… Menlo could provide some C-teams and thats it! The problem is that rugby competes with many other sports and ways of entertainment which wasnt around 15 years ago.. One needs to make the sport attractive… An interesting example is Menlopark… They have most probably one of the best u/15 teams in the country and they beat our Garsies team comfortably… The interesting bit is that the Garsies u15 b-team won 48 – 0… How is that possible? Our B, C and D teams are mostly unbeaten this season and the boys are well coached and enjoy their rugby, but we make sure that the kid playing u/15 C team gets the same coaching time and attention than the A-team boy!
The professionalism in terms of Varsity Cup is here to stay… I agree with you that the unions shouldnt have gotten involved! It can be proffesional withou the union involvement… The concept of the Varsity Cup is brilliant though and the games very exciting…
Club rugby’s domise is very sad… Not sure what to do about it….
@meadows: Could be, but the 5 above are what we have on our school boards. Cody Chetty could be our next ODI cap and also Andile Phehlukwayo has a great future, either in cricket or hockey.
@Rugbyman: I said no higher than B-team for 12 months. Nothing about not playing altogether. It will be the new rules of the game and not that different in principle to u19s not being allowed to play in the Tuks-Reeks, even though they are bona vide school students.
@slinger: Geen kommentaar??
@Grasshopper: Here is the link to the actual list which has Glenwood with 3 and is supposedly accurate up until feb 2014 – Perhaps it only lists test cricketers?
http://www.schoolsportsnews.co.za/cricket/most-test-cricketers-by-school-2/
@slinger: Yep, I am aware of that. Glenwood can put out 28 teams on a Saturday and last year they didn’t play Westville (also with 28 teams), due to a stand off between the headmasters. All the boys lost out not just the 1st team…..
@Grasshopper: The KES situation prime example, long standing relationship and annual fixture ruined due to recruitment of a player. In these derbies up to 300 kids compete, not just the 1st team. Head Masters must decide if they want to ruine relationships for the recruitment of 1 or 2 players who will be in the school for 2 years, parents who offer bursaries should still be controlled by Head Masters.
@Rugbyman: Because a 19 year old is physically bigger and stronger, also mentally more mature. Glenwood’s centre Sparks Ngcobo is Under19 and running rings around opposition. He is not big, actually quite small but he just has that extra experience. There are enough clubs for Under19’s to play in, even in Durban.
@meadows: 22 of those at DHS were before 1990. But I get your point. Glenwood should be in that list with 5 cricketers;
1935 R.J. Williams Cricket
1948 L.A. Markham Cricket
1949-1957 J.C. Watkins Cricket
1989 T. Madsen Cricket
1994-1995 S.D. Jack Cricket
Jade Dernbach for England was at Glenwood a short while too.
@beet: I hear all your arguments, but what you propose to disallow a kid to participate in his new schools will most probably end up in a court… It is not Constitutional and no one can make rules that are in contrast with the country’s laws…
Professional rugby is what it is… professional… It is a runaway train that cannot be stopped… Is it a good thing? Probably not… can we stop it, i doubt it…
@Tjoppa: The state of Carlton rugby in Pretoria is truly sad… I used to coach Naka’s Carlton team quite a few years ago, but I believe that the is not nearly as good as 10 years ago… Problem is no one cares about it… There is no money in club rugby and without money it is born dead… The Bulls and SARU might tell you that they have a heart for club rugby, but honestly they dont… And to make matters worse they dont know how to re-ignite club rugby… My opinion is to get rid of the Vodacom Cup… Have the players play for clubs in that time… Then you will get a mix of professional and amateur players and a union like the Bulls might not have the problem of giving all their young contracted players game time…
It is interesting how rugby has become a disproportionate (IMO) measure of a school’s standing. Perceptions of a school like DHS, whose rugby pedigree in KZN is second only to College, have certainly been affected by their rugby performance over the last decade. Here is something I saw the other day on the production of test cricketers – a sport that DHS are well out in front in..
School/ Test Cricketers
1 Durban High School (DHS) 24
2 Bishops 18
3 King Edward VII School (KES) 15
4 Grey High School (PE) 14
5 Jeppe High School 12
6 Hilton College 11
7 Maritzburg College 11
8 Michaelhouse 11
9 SACS 11
10 Wynberg Boys High 9
11 CBC Kimberley 8
12 Dale College 8
13 Grey College 8
14 St Andrew’s College (Grahamstown) 8
15 Rondebosch Boys High 7
16 Sacred Heart College 7
17 St Aidan’s College (Grahamstown) 7
18 St John’s College (JHB) 7
19 Kimberley Boys High 6
20 Pretoria Boys High 5
@slinger: So everybody, including Brackenfell HS, was very happy when Gavin vd Berg and Ruan Stander moved to Paarl Gym? How are relations between the 2 schools nowadays? Jaco Willemse was also a great acquisition from Boland Landbou, but they are of course one of the small schools that you mentioned.
@Grasshopper: yes that’s true, but it is a respect thing between schools. Head masters should respect that, the players come and go at school but the school will be there for much longer. If they dont respect it, local derbies, long standing traditions of entire top schools competing against each other not just on the rugby field, will be gone.
@kosie: I fully disagree with you on this subject… u19 rugby has always been there at school level, why change it now? Also we dont have a healthy club setup in this country, so what happens to that boy in his matric year? Does he do nothing?
@slinger: I agree and that is how it has been in KZN up until the past 3 years or so. The only problem we have is not knowing what goes on behind closed doors. It does not have to be a bursary, it could just be an Old Boy paying for a kid or other benefits like extra lessons, free kit, free tours…..so many things. Unfortunately things have been done behind closed doors since the beginning of time and we will never know the full extent of what is happening.
In the Western Cape the recruitment drive is from primary school to secondary school, ie grade 8 intakes, with Bois High the most agressive. They seem to take the bulk of the WP u13 Cravenweek players every year.
Very few players changes from Bois High to Paul Roos or to Paarl Gim. Same with the Southern suburbs between Bishops/Rondebosch/Wynberg, etc. There are a few but this 90% does not have anything to do with bursaries, etc. Mostly if the player is maybe border line 1st team in his current school etc.
There are a number of players from smaller schools who will move to the bigger schools from grade 9-11, for obvious reasons – better coaching, more
exposure, education and yes recruitment. But these players are all better off.
The poaching of players from one big or traditional rugby school to another I can not support, especially if it is poaching with the R sign. Parents relocate and have for years, that’s all fine, kids move because they are unhappy, also fine, but so called buying of players at an education level, I will never agree.
@GCollege86: Well the only way the Glenwood management will learn is if schools do boycott games against Glenwood. However they will just find other schools to play. Eg Monnas, Affies and Grey Bloem were never annual fixtures before 2000. I honestly don’t see why they should be anyway. Glenwood should be playing English speaking traditional schools like KES, PBHS, Wynberg, Rondebosch, SACS, Selborne, Dale, Grey PE, Queens, Jeppe etc…….why Monnas?
@Vra maar net: Daardie opmerking bevestig maar net weer waarom almal julle so verpes, dit getuig van ‘n gebrek aan klas en ‘n kultuur van kitssukses en gekoopte suskses. Geniet hierdie klein oorwinninkie in jou klein wêreld, maar wees verseker, jy het vandag van my Tygerberg se nommer een vyand gemaak en as jy nie glo dit sal gevolge hê nie, gaan vra vir vriend Stokman, hy ken my goed, dis altyd beter om met my as teen my te wees. Hou vas wat julle het ou maat, ek kom vir julle, van alle kante.
I refer to QC86 comment yesterday at 09:36. How do one justify too contact a boy and make him an offer if he is already on a sport scholarship (Jaque Kallis Cricket), he is in Gr 11 and already has an after school contract.
Selborne has one of the best sports programs (cricket, rugby, waterpolo, hockey ect.) with some of the best facilities in the country. People like old boy Mark Andrews visits Selborne +- every six weeks for player and coaching clinics for all coaches and teams (not only the first team).
In academics they had a 100% passrate for the last 4 years and in 2013 had the 2 top matric students for the Eastern Cape (not only Border).
For a school of 700 boys they arent doing to bad.
So why will this boy be better off somewhere else. He is at home with all the support structures around him. He can only be “used” for one season if he moved.
This might now result in Selborne and Dale never playing Glenwood in the future. I really hope it does not come to that. I met and became friends with some of the Glenwood supporters at Kearsney and Wildeklawer and they are a great bunch of guys. Hope this can be sorted out behind the scenes.
@Ploegie
Dit was darem 2 lekker verlore, veral die een met 60 punte. Jy sal meer moet borg. Hulle mors met jou geld
@Ploegskaar:
Thank you Ploegskaar.
@GreenBlooded: Agree about the business world, but I feel that 13 to 17 year old kids need not be used as commodities to enhance the rugby profile of an academic institution that they attend for education purposes. You get a fat paycheck to stay competitive in your world, what do the school kids get that is comparable?
What you’re basically saying is that school rugby should in fact be professional – dog eat dog, forget about any type of school ethos?
@Grasshopper: I agree with you regarding the U/19 kids.
My personal view is that thay should not be allowed to play. When I say this everybody is on my case because we will effectively deprive the kids of playing in their last year. My argument is that they actually play 1 year more rugby at school.
In the Noordvaal region kids start playing rugby from u/9 which usually means the kids are in Gr 3. Kids that are U/9 in Gr 2 for what ever reason, may play U/9. Therefore all kids will have the same length of time at school to play rugby. Why must an U/19 kid have the advantage of potentially playing 3 ears in the open age group? I think this is unfair on the other age kids and then they also get an extra year of playing at school. This just seems wrong!
It would seem to me that everybody here is forgetting that it is each parent’s right to choose where their son gets educated and no school or rugby union should infringe that right. Whether the boy leaves a school in grade 8 or 12 he should be allowed to play whatever sport he chooses at whatever level.
Just as much as a school has rights, I believe that the rights of the student and parents supersede that of any school or is it believed that the parents of the boys are incapable of making adult decisions.
The real question is why are the rugby structures including development in those provinces not delivering the quality and quantity of boys required to keep the provinces competitive?
I would lay the blame square at the feet of the schools ruby and the provincial union. They need to sit down and do analyses of what their structures are producing and how can they grow capacity in them, as this would go a long way in reducing the need the shop outside our own provinces but not stop the competion between schools in that province for the best boys .
Recruitment is a part of the school system whether you like it or not. Perhaps a guideline should be put in place on how it should be carried out, but ultimately it is up to the parents and their kids who should be afforded the same rights as everybody else to decide their own son’s future.
@umbiloburger: I certainly have no qualms with a parent moving their son willingly to afford them what they see as best for his development. I have qualms with a school that has all that GW has and over 150 open rugby players, and another 90 under 16 players, making an offer to a boy in grade 11 with an after school contract, who is on a scholarship at another top SA school. Despite just finding the act wrong, it does smack of arrogance wouldn’t you say?
@beet: Bud, I strongly object that this matter of the *** DHS boy has been brought into this debate. As a parent, this type of casual heartless talk is sickening. Some people have clearly lost their moral compass in their efforts to justify, deflect and divert.
They are a true reflection of the unethical and amoral depths that their school has plumbed. Fact is that they enjoy the success of their school, at any expense, and condone all their actions, despite their feeble attempts at trying to convince us of their disapproval here. The absolute crap about schools being companies run by CEO’s and survival of the fittest earlier in the thread, followed by an innocent “lot’s to think about” or whatever, fools no-one. Disgusting. Boet.
@Anonymous: hmmmm, ok. It’s far better to have independent Auditors to do it, more trust and transparency. This should be done every year at all schools. The Payi & Tom episode should never happen again, it severely dented both DHS & Glenwood’s reputation. Unfortunately other schools were allowed to sweep their issues under the carpet unscathed. I would also like the Under19 scenario sorted, they should not be allowed to play. They have club rugby to play. I think 3 years ago DHS had up to 8 under19’s playing and George Campbell about 7. Noord Kaap had about 10!
@beet
Short answer is yes.
Once the overage issue was uncovered by the then head of school she wanted to ensure that our house was clean.
We conduct the age verification tests in u14 when they come in and on subsequent boys who join the school in older age groups.
@BOG: Bog that is an interesting point. There are 3rd team players at GCB who could probably play 1st XV at many other schools with challenging fixture lists. So I wonder if anyone has ever tried to tap into that GCB market with promises of greater exposure.
One of the other things I’ve been led to believe (not verified) is that GCB has contracts with parents of players who are on bursaries. Amongst other things these make it difficult for boys to leave Grey – I assume it requires all money to be repaid???
@Anonymous: Word on the age audit from a few years ago is that it was limited to u16 and older players. u14 and u15 players were not tested. Did DHS conduct it’s own tests on u14 and u15 players?
Not at all.
To the best of my knowledge he was the right age. (he went through the same verification process that did expose other overage cheats in KZN and passed)
Please be so kind as to forward me any relevant documentation regarding his age that you may have as I am quite certain that for you to be saying this is a well known fact then you would have proof?
@Anonymous: The point was not that the boy ***. The point was that he was overage (not my belief – well known fact). Should someone be accountable for an U16 player playing in an U15 team? Hell yes!! If you are claiming “de mortuis nil nisi bonum” then I assure you that my point would be equally valid if *** which was a tragedy and for which I understand nobody could be blamed. Happy?
@beet: You and others, have often spoken of an “over supply” of talent at GCB and how this “impacts negatively/ detrimentally” on rugby and the development of players (Something to that affect) If this was true, surely, GCB would be the ideal place to recruit from? But it does not happen, or at least, not successfully. Ever wondered why? schools should rather concentrate on “retention” than “acquisition”. Create an environment in their schools which will ensure that kids would not want to leave. Its like immigration/emigration.It only happens if the circumstances in the home country encourages it and no amount of social engineering, will stop it. The more “push factors” present, the easier the recruitment will be. It equally applies to schools. Its that simple.
@GreenBlooded:
Greenblooded please can you explain what the young man *** has to do with this discussion? It is difficult to tell from your post if you believed him to be overage or if you feel that there should blame aportioned to someone in this regard? I can guarantee you that I do very much care about what happened to him and I resent the death of a 15 year old boy being used as a conversation point in this particular discussion.
@beet: If any headmasters vision is telling him there will only be one elite school left in Durban then we have much, much bigger problems that poaching of rugby players. If by Elite you mean 100% (or close) matric pass rate and 90% or more fee paying parents that is. Only 1 left, we are all doomed.
Ironically, it is more likely to be the vision that there might only be one left, and doing everything in your power to be that one, that might cause the situation to become reality. Monopolies tend to sweep all before them ….
@GreenBlooded: I think this comment hits the nail on the head. I feel the same way. Survival of the fittest is a consideration in school decision-making. Often schools fall off the pace because their headmasters are slack. A good HM keeps his finger on the pulse, has a vision of the future and sets goals in line with this vision. If TK’s vision is telling him there will only be one elite govt school left in the Dbn Metro in 20 years time, he realises today that being no.2 just won’t be good enough so he does everything he can to be no.1 and to stay there.
@GreenBlooded: Yep, he did. Left to fade into obscurity…..just like a few of my mates who decided to go the Grosvenor on the Bluff instead of Glenwood. The two of them were KZN schools material for cricket and rugby, lost in the midst of Grosvenor’s mediocrity….
@Grasshopper: The point is – the kid was the ultimate victim. He lost out.
@GreenBlooded: yep, but it was from one of Glenwood’s closest and fiercest rival….
@CRC: There was a big hoo-hah last year for exactly that reason. Talented player stuck in an average team. Old man tried to move the boy to Glenwood, Glenwood were happy to have him but the whole thing backfired when everyone cried foul. Glenwood again!!! The result – a talented kid who would have benefited greatly by what Glenwood has to offer was denied and was left to eek out his year in an average team.
In this whole debate one thing that we also need to consider is the wishes of the schoolboy and his parents. What if they want to move schools for whatever reason? The boy’s rugby ability can be marketed to get him into another school they think will serve him better in the long run. Is that wrong? Is it poaching if the initial approach is made by the boy and his parents?
@GreenBlooded: I mean Cody Chetty has just been picked for SA A team one day cricket team to your Aus, no announcement…nothing! Other schools make a huge fuss on Twitter about it….also the kid picked for SA junior athletics etc etc….
@GreenBlooded: quite simply he could squash all allegations with a decent PR strategy using social media. It really annoys me how Glenwood are literally the only school not active on Twitter or Facebook. All it takes is the marketing person to manage the accounts and be solely responsible for what is said there. Glenwood are missing a trick there. The thing TK needs to realize is that Old Boys do have a say but potentially sending their sons due to him being a closed book. Also that Ivan Clark is not the only Old Boy to keep happy. Old Boys are a huge part of a schools success, embrace them not ignore them. We are the ones passionate about the school and ensuring it succeeds in the future. He has already alienated a few Old Boys….real pity…
@Grasshopper: Hmmmm – I’m the first to admit that they could do with a little PR shakeup. But if I were in his shoes I would be equally unwilling to have to explain myself for each and every accusation that comes along. Hell – in the case of Glenwood he’d have no time to run the school. Or maybe is expecting some flak along the way and chooses to ignore it. Collateral damage. The end justifies the means? Lot’s to think about. I just don’t know…..
@Gungets Tuft: I found the survey flawed as it concentrated on two subjects perceived as they ones a kid must have. If you took into consideration all the other subjects then things would look different. Also, for me it’s not about the school average it’s about the progress they have made with each kid, so a kid going from an E to a C is brilliant! If all your kids have had to get in on an entrance exam then the absolute minimum you should expect is 100% pass rate…
@Grasshopper: Not for a couple of years now I don’t think. And that survey preceded the Elite Academic system. Perhaps Glenwood didn’t need it. You would hate to find the average mark has gone down since the EA, that would point to a systemic problem …
Sheesh, we are on dodgy ground here. Before we know it ou @Black and white: is going to be venting his spleen.
@GreenBlooded: Yep, at the Old Boys dinner he mentioned that he wanted Glenwood to become a school that produced international athletes and academics. He wants boys to believe they can be the next Shaun Pollock, Victor Matfield etc. He said it’s all in the mindset and that if boys are mixing amongst success they build belief. My aunt mentioned to me he is doing some post graduate course in Management so he certainly isn’t a fool. I just don’t like the silence. He would be liked by more if he was just a little more transparent on certain things….it just puts the flames out…..no more guessing/hearsay etc….from the horses mouth…
@Gungets Tuft: Maybe it’s going to become exactly that – a bun-fight for the elite parents who can afford to or who care enough to pay much higher school fees. The schools who have maintained their standards and positioned themselves well beforehand will win the bun-fight. The schools that don’t will go down the proverbial……. Maybe this is Kershaws thinking and why he is trying to position Glenwood for the future the way he is. He’s not everyone’s cup of tea – and he is certainly not an idiot. Maybe he thinks this is not a popularity contest but a battle for survival and if he needs to resort to slightly dubious tactics to get that well then so be it. Can’t say I totally agree or understand – but that’s why I’m a dumb sparkie and he is the headmaster/CEO of a top high school…….
@Gungets Tuft: I think if you checked that gov survey done a few years back, Glenwood’s maths and science figures were better than College and KES, also higher avg A’s….but that was probably 5 years ago now. It’s Westville’s bible as they did so well in it. Again, who says good Maths and Science results means success.
@GreenBlooded: Impressive, to a degree. It’s not translating into overall outstanding matric results. So the academy might attract elite students (who get picked, they can’t apply), but how well do the rest do. Once again, not against rewarding the talented, but how well do the foot soldiers react to funding it with no benefit other than a vicarious thrill of being associated with success but not sharing in it. That said, success seems to be tickling down in sport with strength across the board, perhaps it will follow in academics and the arts. I have no desire to see Glenwood fail, education and schools are not zero sum games, it’s possible for everyone to do well, just as long as we don’t parasite each other.
@umbiloburger: Elite academy for academics?? Glenwood boys doing varsity maths?? Impossible – Glenwood is a rugby school……..
@Gungets Tuft: I am not sure of the entrance criteria, but I do know that acceptance is based on invitation and not application. I also have it confirmed that no player is given a bursary for the elite academy. It is very elitist. Again, what is offered must be top drawer as the results are very evident.
@umbiloburger: How many kids in total qualify for these Elite Programs, and who pays for it as it must come at a cost.
I am not against rewarding the talented and the hard workers, far from it, but I think it’s something you grow into. I am trying to wrap my mind around the limited resources to provide this to a big enough group to make sure a talented kid doesn’t get missed. Then, unless the initiatives are self funded, or sponsored outside of school fees, how do you get “ordinary” parents to fund it?
Getting off topic here, worried that the Topic Monitor is going to rock up, or whathisname is going to accuse me of ruining his daily read.
@Gungets Tuft: But isn’t that what education is about…..equipping kids to be the next CEO or MD or Dr etc etc and then let’s add pro sportsman. That is where the modern education is headed. GW are gearing their boys for the National and International sports arena. I understand that not all of them will make it, just like not all who do accountancy will become accountants.
And it is not reserved for rugby. Their Elite Academy caters for several sports like swimming, tennis, cricket and naturally rugby. Then they also have an Elite Academic Class to cater for the really bright kids. These kids I believe are doing Varsity Maths Modules in Grade 10 they are so sharp. This concept is way ahead of what other schools offer and unfortunately this is the opportunity that top athletes are after. So it is no wonder that parents want to move their sons to GW. Full credit to TK and his team.
@GreenBlooded: good point of view, SA is overly capitalist, either succeed or die! Not like socialist Europe where if you weak you get support. With this serious capitalism comes extreme wealth and extreme poverty. In SA this lesson does need to be learnt early, daddy and mommy can’t bail you out everytime. Again not sure if this is right….
@Gungets Tuft: @Pedantic: I hear what you guys are saying regarding the displaced players who don’t get to play First XV – here is a different perspective on this.
The world is competitive. It’s dog eat dog out there. I am a contractor working largely for a large quasi-government utility – have been doing so for the last 12 years. This is in no way due to loyalty – but through constantly keeping myself abreast of new technology, keeping my equipment in tip-top condition and providing a decent level of service at a decent price. If some new guy comes down from Jozi or up from Umtata and can do it better than me for cheaper – I’m out on my ear. It matters not how long I’ve been loyal to them or how hard I worked. I’m sure Gungets has the same issue in his industry – which is why he spends a fortune on mags, winch rope and exhaust pipes. It’s the same with sport. A newer fitter better player comes along – out go the non-performers. It keeps the world competitive and moving forward. Hard lesson – but maybe one the lighties need to be learning earlier rather than later. Not saying that’s my opinion – yet. Just putting it out there for discussion.
@meadows: But does it matter what happens after school. Schools are not in the business of providing the next Bok, they are in the business of school rugby. Top 10 finishes, unbeaten years, Boks on the honours boards are nice but not the aim, my opinion anyway. But if you are a rugby academy, that would be different, so perhaps that’s where we are headed.
I don’t care how talented anyone, including the boy and his parents, think a 14 year old may be, to make decisions to uproot and move across the country based on some vague hope of making as a professional rugby player is utter madness. To make a point I will use Glenwood as an example because they are the ones who seem to be coming in for most of the attacks here for recruiting.
Glenwood, for probably the last decade, have offered sports, and especially rugby scholarships to large numbers of boys in Grade 8. I remember Glenwood’s, U13 Craven Week laden, U14 team smashing MHS in 2004. Over the next 4 years the gap narrowed so that by 2008 the result was a 24 all draw, both schools got 6 players into the U18 Craven week team and both teams were ranked in the top 10 nationally that year. The 6 Glenwood players who went to Craven Week were;
Shaun Malton who made SA Schools, Frans Kleyhans, Edrich Arlow, Storm Pearton, Allen Zungu and Steen Smith.
2008 is a good example because these boys are all turning 23 or 24 this year and if they are going to kick on in rugby should be appearing regularly at Currie Cup/ super Rugby level now.
The only one that I am aware of doing so is Kleynhans who when I last saw was still involved at the Sharks.
I wonder how many of those 14 year olds that started in 2004 made their decision on the basis of rugby prospects? I suspect that the success rate is much the same now.
@umbiloburger: @umbiloburger: But the boy also got a bursary, or is he paying his own way for the privilege of attending the admittedly excellent rugby setup at Glenwood.
Then, do you think his folks would have accepted Glenwood without bursary in the face of 100% from Kearsney or Hilton. I agree that Glenwoods program will attract the top 2%, all other things being equal. I am not knocking Glenwood, but the setup is the river card, not the flop.
As for every kid getting the same opportunity, and tough if they are not good enough, also not quite the whole story. He might be good enough till te end of 4th term in Grade 11, then suddenly not because MC has suddenly arrived. Now he faces, after 4 years of grafting for the privilege of 1st team starts, the prospect of 2nds and sometimes benching. What did happen to the boy that was displaced by MC. My sources said he ended up back in Empangeni, probably facing an uphill battle to push out a kid that had been playing A team for 4 years. It’s never quite that simple, is it?
I tire, we have spoken about this so often, the conversation is cold porridge, it’s not going to change because there is actually nothing that cannot be justified somehow, and not just by Glenwood, I mean generally by all schools.
Nor do we have any answers, this will evolve despite our bleating, because rules just create loopholes. It might not create national rugby weakness either. Schools just need to decide whether they are in or out, then play that game to win.
@Pedantic: that’s an unfortunate reality. That they play 2nd or 3rds is actually irrelevant. The question is are they offered the same opportunities? They too will be afforded the opportunities to develop themselves. You see all these players start in the 1st squad of approximately 60 players. They undergo off-season and pre-season conditioning and training and will have every chance to make it into the 1stXV should they be good enough. If not they slide down to the next team.
Whether a lad starts at GW in grade 8 or in grade 10 he is still considered to be a GW boy and will receive the same opportunities.
@umbiloburger: exactly, people forget that success breeds success and attracts the best. Many of these boys moved because they had better opportunities at Glenwood. To play against the best schools in the country and compete with other good players. Mac & Curtis came because they would have lost in the Boland. The added bursary or help just makes it easier. However, bringing in a player in grade 11 to bolster the next year is wrong and not fair on the incumbents….
@umbiloburger: I have heard the same from other top rugby players parents.
The next big challenge is to ask the parents of the 2nd and 3rd team players who may have played 1st XV prior to late recruitment what their opinions are ?
Sorry PBHS formula again without > =
1 point = 1st XV player joined school after Gr.8 but was not recruited
3 points = 1st XV player recruited by school in Gr.8 or Gr.9
5 points = 1st XV player recruited by school in Gr.10, Gr.11 or Gr.12
PBHS = 0
Selborne = 0
Michaelhouse = 1 + 1
Kearsney = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 +1
Hilton = 5 + 1
College = 5 + 5 + 1
Glenwood = 5 x 8 + 3
Westville = 5 + 5 + 1 + 1 + ???
@Playa: I have a question that I posed to a parent of a top rugby player at GW: Why did you send your son to GW? His answer was simple: “GW offer my son the best opportunity in terms conditioning, coaching, nutrition and sports psychology and they offer a solid education. Their elite academy is unique and unmatched in South Africa and is absolutely brilliant.”
I guess what I am trying to get across is that any parent that would want to relocate their son to Durban & GW must surely have a reason…..and pocket money is definitely not a reason!!! Could it not be for the opportunities that exist within GW.
@Pedantic: Mail me, I think I know who you are taking about. Quite a lot has changed since then, I suspect top candidates won’t just slip through the net any more. There was a lot of stuff happening in 2009/2010, nothing is as it seems. Kearsneys dream team didn’t end up there without financial incentives. I have a list of bursaries offered around then to DPHS boys.
@umbiloburger: Wasn’t Jaco also a late entry from Gelofte ?
@Gungets Tuft: College had an applicant who just about matched your dream candidate requirements in 2010, they weren’t very interested at the time. No kidding! I guess the DOR was happy he had snagged the now UK player and felt he didn’t need the dream candidate.
I think that there should be a distinction between genuine moves post grade 8, which may happen for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with rugby recruitment, and the kind of recruiting that seems to be causing such controversy here.
Being tone deaf I’m not sure what the rationale for that was.
As far as MHS is concerned, as far as i am aware, not even the Major Open and Trust scholarships are for more than around 80% of costs. There used to be 6 sports scholarships of up to 50% of costs awarded each year, and only, to boys entering grade 8. This was across all sports and preference was given to “all rounders”. I can’t recall more than two rugby scholarships being awarded in any year. That is not to say that the odd recipient of a sports scholarship primarily for cricketing ability doesn’t turn out to be a good rugby player.
It is also a fact that there is private support network provided by OB’s and parents etc to boys deemed deserving from time to time.
It may have changed but previously the only scholarship that could be awarded after grade 8 was for music
@Grasshopper:
4 K Xaba Grade 8
6 James Venter Grade 10
7 Mac Muller Grade 10
10 Curtis Jonas Grade 10
11 Philani Ngcobo Grade 8
12 Donny du Randt Grade 9
Corrections made
@beet: Maybe we should give minus bonus points for kids from the community. Therefore if you joined in gr9 but are from the feeder area minus 1.
Almost all schools give some sort of bursary. Eldoraigne are no exception. They only give to community kids to keep them at home.
@Grasshopper: I guess that would depend on whether the parents relocated or if the boy arrived on his new school’s tour bus after a remote tour
@Grasshopper: Oh yes! What a loss for Dale. At least we got one over you nonetheless.
Can’t believe he’s still playing.
@Gungets Tuft: The formula totally went over my head
I can’t believe this is Nic, fluent in French. Playing at Narbonne in France; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZCBe83btgw&noredirect=1
@Playa: Nic Strauss arriving from Dale at Glenwood in grade 10 (1995) due to parents moving jobs….he bolstered our side enormously…
@beet:
The issue is everywhere. EC has a history of boys moving around even before rugby went professional, never due to recruitment, but due to ‘other’ reasons, which were purely parent/son decisions. For example, Luke Smith leaving Selborne for Dale, Juan van Niekerk leaving Kingswood for Selborne, Henry Mensah leaving QC for Dale, Micheal Smith leaving Dale for Selborne, the list is endless. Back then protocol was for the headmaster of the receiving school and notify them. This still happens to my knowledge. Not without its abuses of course with St Andrews sucking QC dry in the 90s, and the recent squabbles between Dale-Kingswood-Grey PE.
Point is they can be sorted out. Not to say it will not happen again, or that it is not happening now because it is. Action needs to be taken and standards need to be set.
@GreenBlooded: Any points for boys who came in grade 9 having never touched a rugby ball before then?
@Gungets Tuft: Nope. I’m also stumped.
Surely if a kid arrives in grade 10, then he would have spent half his high school career in the school, hence should be considered home grown. I remember in my day a few boys arriving from the Cape due to parent moves or even just to board as their parents split or a parent died….these things do happen.
@beet: Am I thick that I can’t make head nor tail of that? .. Towing too many diesels or something.
Just can’t see how you got to 16 …
I’ve reverted to the Pretoria BH scale. Zero if you are PBHS, 1 for every 1st XV player that arrived >= Gr10, 3 for a 1st XV rugby recruit who arrived in < Gr10, 5 for a 1st XV rugby recruit that arrived > = Gr8.
PBHS: 0
Selborne : 0
Michaelhouse : 2
Kearsney : 5
Hilton : ?? (at least 10)
Maritzburg College : 16
Glenwood: 43
Westville : ?? (maybe quite high)
Eldoraigne : 1
Kempton Park : 8
@ RRugger- why would I be sensitive about Westville? It is about the same as George Clooney being sensitive about his looks.
I have simply got a problem when flawed logic is used to attack the boys themselves who you called ” seemingly mediocre players”. Well these mediocre boys pushed GC all the way. You then stated as a matter of a FACT that the system that identified these boys is therefore also defective . A continuation of a bad theme. Maybe you are the one that is sensitive and for very good reason after this weekend. 
@ Old school- are those 5/6 scholarships solely for rugby and are they 100%
OK, so James Venter came from Port Shepstone in Grade 10…..a few more to go..
@kosie: Kempies 68.
Not sure that #9 was there from Gr8.
#10 spend 3 months in Kempton in gr8 before going to EG. He has returned to Kempton this year. he got 0 score, since he spend most of his school years in EG.
@beet: Well, I have seen blogs about Grey PE ransacking a few schools in the EC….not sure if that is true…
Glenwood gave out about 45 bursaries & scholarships in 2014, half of which are academic. So about 22 sports only bursaries and not all are 100%. They do try to get all round sportsman too so killing 2 birds with one stone.
@Ploegskaar: I’m not so sure about that Ploegie. Just after Easter Cape Town school Jan van Riebeeck acquired a top player from KZN. You might want to rethink your statement!
Jokes!
Honestly I don’t know enough about what happens in the W/Cape to comment. I was informed by someone that 3 of Paarl Gim’s star players originally attended other high schools in the W/Cape but I don’t know that for certain.
Eastern Cape has had one or two issues but they are mainly the victims.
KZN, Noordvaal and Central region seem to be where the most unhappiness stems from.
@kosie: EG Jansen 70. Not bad for a school that apparently only “buy” players.
Only #10 not there from gr8.
@oldschool: Let’s be a little careful about the generalisations. Hilton is private I believe, and I am not completely sure how Gouws and Wright got there, but they arrived very late if it was a Grade 8 scholarship. I think you will find College offer no more than 5 or 6 rugby scholarships as well. There are other academic and cultural scholarships, and some from private companies over which College has no say. We live in hope that we can find a 2m, 110kg high jumper than can do the 100m in 10.5, while singing the lead in Carmen, playing the piano and getting striaght A’s in matric. We will relax the requirement to be a chess grandmaster and a recognised impressionist painter.
In 2012 there were 3 academic, 5 Closed, 1 cultural and 10 sport, of which a number are cricket, soccer and hockey. The categories and names of recipients are published in the year book each year. From time to time we will “lose” a scholarship boy, so that is where a later recruit might pick one up – like Mr Guma who got one that was dropped by a potential England loose forward who disappeared via via.
Hole not whole….doh!
@oldschool: I don’t think that kind of scoreline will ever be repeated. 2015 is going to be a tough year for the Green Machine, losing 13 starters is a huge gaping whole to fill and our Under16A’s from 2013 were average with this years side OK too. Glenwood will be strong again in 2016….
@Grasshopper: agreed , I believe Glenwood have done a great job in recruiting rugga talent into there grade 8 intake annually …. and as you say the school should stop the recruitment /poaching of older kids as this is what is giving them a bad name ….
The brains trust of glenwood 10/11 years ago should be commended in there strategy to create a strong rugby culture at the school …. it is what saved glenwood from falling into the abyss !!
Just don’t give us another 85 !!
@beet: I think at this stage we can at least, with certainty, confirm that this epidemic is restricted to the the KZN & Noordvaal regions, with the WC, Boland, SWD and EC the innocent victims of the mindless plunder.
@GreenBlooded: Can other Glenwood bloggers help me here;
1 Kenny Van Niekerk Grade 8
2 Percy Mgnadi Grade 8
3 Koos Tredoux Grade 10 (Waterkloof)
4 K Xaba ?
5 Kevin Du Randt Grade 8
6 James Venter ?
7 Mac Muller ?
8 Marco Palvie Grade 8
9 Kwazi Khayile Grade 8
10 Curtis Jonas Grade 9 (Swellendam)
11 Philani Ngcobo ?
12 Donny du Randt ?
13 Sparks Ncgobo Grade 8
14 Ilunga Mukendi Grade 8
15 Morne Joubert Grade 8
16 Jaco Coetzee Grade8
17 Vidima Grade 10 (KZN Development)
@star: there is a massive difference in the way the privates do there recruiting compared to he state schools …. Kearsney only offer a limited amount of rugby specific scholarships a year , no more than 5/6 .
These fortunate recipients receive these from grade 8 and are not on any form of performance contract whats so ever and the scholarship lasts until they leave in grade 12 …. regardless of performance !
The state schools , more specifically Glenwood and Westville hand out about 50 scholarships a year mostly for sport ….BUT these are performance based …so if the boy doesn’t succeed it gets removed and they become full fee paying pupils ……
The ethics with the above can be questioned , however , it is understandable due to the fact that the schools have to hedge there bets and protect themselves in some way …..
Kearsney , I believe go about there business very ethically and never step on the other schools toes post the grade 7 hunting period …. ours is called gambling on a youngster , and not the mass recruitment that the state schools do ….
@beet: Only know about 1 – and he didn’t play on Saturday, I thought the brief was Saturdays starting 15.
If it is going to be the whole squad it will be a dogs breakfast – College had a lot of injuries this year, had a lot of players in and out. Almost all of them .. in fact all of them, Grade 8 recruits.
Start with 0 for Grade 8, 2 for gr9 to 10 for grade 12, add ’em up and divide by the number of players in the sample. Something like that …
@Gungets Tuft: What about the two Zimbabwean boys that College has made use of this season? Aren’t they also recent rugby recruitments?
@Star: You are very sensitive about Westville, too much so! KC offer bursaries to boys coming from Primary School, that I do know – but I also know that most schools do this, I do not see this as much of an issue.
I do not know of KC recruiting after GR8.
I also do not get overly sensitive about results, it is great when your team wins, but year on year, KC is not a power-house (in terms of SA SBR) but having said that, neither are Westville – no where even close to top 10 material, year on year
I think there is something amiss here, Westville have a strong feeder school system, both sports and academically with WSP, Pitlochry & Atholl Heights, quite wealthy families who want to keep their sons in the area. Glenwood’s intake has predominantly come from less affluent areas like the Bluff, Queensburgh, Umbilo etc. We all know money usually equals success. In terms of getting the best intake, Glenwood cannot compete with bursaries at Michaelhouse, Kearsney, Hilton, Clifton etc so once the cream have been secured Glenwood and the other Gov schools are left to scrap it out in a fish bowl of talent. Because of this Glenwood thought out of the box and decided they needed to recruit outside of the province. To me that was very clever. Utilise the big BE and get in the cream from other provinces. The Glenwood Under13 rugby tournament was the perfect place to start this. My only issue came in when Marne Coetzee and others arrived in grade 11. That is wrong…..Westville give out circa 70 bursaries a year so have attracted boys from DPHS and Highbury who probably would have gone to DHS and Kearsney respectively. Glenwood have just boxed clever in my opinion. They just need to stop recruitment at grade 8 and they will be fine…
@ Beet- Fruitless- I disagree because they compete in the same market place and the spend directly influences the decision making. Several potential Westville boys are lost this way because of this fact and therefore due recognition must be given when comparing apples with apples. You can’t have your cake and eat it.
And why do you call me UNM. Under appreciated maybe : 
@beet: Then College is 71 on those rules, Goi Le Roux’s parents relocated.
@GreenBlooded: The reasons are crucial though as it defines the school’s true intentions.
If for example Kearsney had identified the ex-Grey High player as someone they wanted, approached him, offered him a rugby scholarship to move, that’s a genuine recruitment. If on the other hand, the youngster’s parents relocate to from PE to KZN and he needs a new school, its the equivalent of a Gr.8 acquisition.
I will downgrade to 71 on account that the old boy’s son’s move was not essential.
Maybe the rating system should work from 0 upwards, where PBHS would be a 0 = absolutely no intention to recruit or poach or offer financial assistance to rugby players.
@star: Garsfontein? minus 20?
@ G/B – Does Cody get 5 because he was at Westville in Grade8
Then it is just Heystek and the 2 HP boys( not the norm as in the case of GW). And Beet you are right to include the squad who played first team as that will blow GW right out of the water. Were there not a few Eldorainge boys who made an appearance or 2.
I also think that GW should get negative 10 points for Mr King
@star: I know the EC guys have a different take on this because their primary schools bear the High School names and have always been regarded as part of the same entity in a way but here in KZN that same close relationship does not exist.
Also the evidence supports the notion that the later you recruit a rugby player in the 5 year high school cycle, the higher your chances are of acquiring a good player. So acquiring a player goes from high risk at Gr.8 to virtually no risk at Gr.11.
Your arguments about trying to compare govt and private schools seem fruitless unless you live in a society where everyone has is capable of making the choice between the two (finances not an issue). It would be better to compare the privates to each other and govts to each other to gain a more meaningful interpretation.
@star: Good measuring tool. I think we should ask Beet to make it a compulsory question every month for continued blogging. Like an audit.
Eldoraigne 73/75. The one boy was in a feeder primary but went to another school which is less than 3 km away from Eldo.Again, Eldoraigne dors not have a boarding facility. Even Glenwood have 2 regulars that joined them in grade 11 from Eldoraigne. I presume the food is better at Glenwood than at home!
@beet: No allowance for reasons!! If they started at the beginning of Gr 8 they get 5 points – if they started Gr 10 they get one point. New score?
Hopper or UmbiloBurger – can you do the GW team. I don’t have all the facts.
First of all I stand to be corrected on these stats below.
I’m going to score Kearsney at 75.
Over the course of the season 5 players that joined after Gr8 represented the team but 4 arrived due to parents relocating and the other is the son of an old boy. None were poached or recruited.
Glenwood I score at 50. I think 24 played for them this year. Of those 8 arrived after Gr.8 and are rugby recruits.
It sounds like Westville are in the 20’s
@star: Awaiting you audited score /75 for the Westville XV…..
Selborne 75
@RBugger- are you then saying that Kearsney do not recruit. Most probably one of the biggest. And you also have to compare apples with apples . There is a big difference to a Westville PADSA ” recruit” on a 25 % which costs R8450 to a KZN rep at Kearsney costing R150000. Maybe rather than comparing numbers we should be looking at total spend. And again you are looking at an isolated incident re the Kearsney match( even without their spend). By your reckoning the GW result last year against GC must make them the most mediocre players in living memory.
@GreenBlooded: College 67. No allowances for reasons, Le Roux was not an import, that has been sorted out already, but 4 points lost there. 1 point for Guma in Grade 10.
OK. Here is a very simple formula. 5 points for a player who started at the beginning of Gr8. 3 points for anytime during Gr9 or Gr8 and 1 point for anytime during Gr 10. No points for any late imports. Therefore the max score is 15×5 = 75 points. How ‘home grown’ were the teams who played on Saturday? Only the starting 15 to keep things equal.
@star: Some nice spin doctoring there. GW will obviously have many more out of province players than you okes because they have a MUCH bigger and more established boarding house. And forget about recruiting at feeder schools. Everyone agrees that primary schools are fair game.
@Star: What I am saying, is that, if 11 players were recruits in a first team and they lost to another first team, then yes, they would be VERY MEDIOCRE recruits – as 11 recruited players nearly make up an entire team. You would think any side with 11 recruits to be unstoppable! That is all I am saying, to make a point.
Nothing against your school
@QC86: That settles it for me. There can be absolutely nothing right there.
@Gungets Tuft: It was tongue in cheek……for some reason many thought Glenwood were getting players due to Sean Erasmus’s link to the Sharks…..no chance..
@Playa: From Glenwood
@ QC86- There are only 2 potentially recruited players in the Westville team and those are the 2 H Park boys. Also subject to correction they are the only out of province rugby boys in the history of Westville. As Beet says to fight fire with fire seems to be the only way forward and unfortunately becomes a downward spiral. Westville actually rewards loyalty and so almost all the feeder schools are accommodated at Westville and they are rewarded on a sliding scale of achievement. This is also to defend against other marauding schools. What else can you do? WSPS boys who have represented the current Ist team include Meilhon, Thambiran, Warner,Jackson,Murphy and B.Smith. The other boys would predominately come from other regional schools. If they have achieved a certain level of success that will be acknowledged. Certainly not the poaching/recruitment picture you are painting. By the way Kearsney got clapped by 74 and the average of all the teams was 42-5 . It would actually be interesting to know how many of the current GW first team players are out of province to get a feel for the proper definition of poaching. Was an EG Jansen blogger not complaining recently of approaches to their feeder school which actually shares a common boundary. What must their response be? You can now add Selboune, Dale, Jan Van Riebeck and a host of other schools. I suppose it is all about balance and what boundaries you are prepared to push. Surely you cannot be that arrogant to presume that there will not be a backlash.
@ RBugger- wow. Are you saying that one bad day at the office( Kearsney) where Westville were clearly the better team and lost by a single point( for failing to exit after the whistle) suddenly makes the Westville players mediocre. Westville’s relatively poor start was that it could not settle on combinations and when they started to get it right eg the Grey College game they were a different kettle of fish. For goodness sake in the game against GW the current CW centre did not even start for the 1sts among a host of subsequent adjustments. S…t happens.
@beet: @McCulleys Workshop: My angle was from the understanding that the phone call came from GW and not a union. If it came from a union, I can understand, as I wouldn’t expect a deadly snake to kiss and want to cuddle with me. But where my issue would strongly lie is where a school, with close to 30 rugby teams, would go and approach a kid who already has direction laid out…AND is at a top school, which matches them in everything in a
Secondly, if the boy is receiving pocket money from the union that has contracted him for after school, then that is an indirect benefit of having been at Selborne. A totally different animal to being lured to a school to up stakes.
All in all, maybe I just need clarity as to whether the offer came directly from the school, or from a union, promising to place him at the school.
@Grasshopper: I was going to stay out of this until this comment. Seriously ….
That’s like saying John Smit is going to covertly advise promising schoolboys to go to Pretoria Boys. The best I can do is assume that this was tongue in cheek.
@Grasshopper: Hopper – what are the current stats on the GW 1st team? Sure I read 12/15 started in Gr 8?? With the others starting in Gr 9 and 10? Do you have the facts? How home grown is our team?
@beet: I have stated my own view here many times. I think there should be government legislation to completely ban any form of financial incentive to school sportsmen to attend certain schools. Nada. Nothing. You go to school to get an education of which sport is a part. You play for your school and for the pride of your jersey and school badge and for honor among your mates and peers. Also the very important life skills that sport teaches kids when coached and mentored in the correct manner. There you have it!!
My post is not at all trying to say that Glenwood are not doing anything wrong – simply to point out that most of those doing the finger pointing and beating the anti-Glenwood drum are guilty of the same sins themselves. And to re-state a point I have often made here: “If I have murdered 5 people and you have murdered 25 people, I don’t get to call you a bigger criminal than me”. Either you are doing it or you aren’t. So either don’t recruit/poach or don’t whine. You can’t do both.
Surely with Butch James involved with Junior rugby then players should end up at College if they recruited from outside the province?
@Playa: @beet: Playa – what Beet is asking is important – is the union involved – and are CW “potential” places being offered, and can the post school contract be cancelled for a better deal with another union?
What is so funny is that everybody conveniently forgets about Hilton poaching two Glenwood Under16A captains in the past few years, the Westville scrummy and others. Northwood have recruited a whole front row and more. Westville too have a couple of Hudson Park boys arriving in grade 10…..it seems Glenwood is just an easy target as they are performing well…….an attitude of Glenwood just buy success they don’t nurture it….
Just to add to this debate, what we should do is list the 1st team and the year they arrived at the school. For the current Glenwood 1st team, I believe only Koos Tredoux (ex Waterkloof), James Venter (?), MacMillan (?), Vidima (KZN Development and injured most of the season) and Jonas (?) arrived after grade 8. I stand to be corrected…..but that isn’t too bad. I still do not support recruitment at any other level than at grade 8 intake….
@GreenBlooded: Kearsney’s whole 2013 team arrived in Gr8. It would have been a different story Kearsney had acquired several Craven Week quality players and a couple of Bulls u16 trialist to bolster the 2013 team.
Tom is also not a great example because he was a very high profile player to get caught – SA Schools. I’m sure that if he’d been at any of the other KZN schools they would have had the same recurring problem.
You’ve identified Glenwood as the market leaders in recruiting and done a sound job of cautioning others about stones and glass houses. For one thing during just a few years of blogging I’ve realised that taking the moral high ground is a dangerous place at times with schools coz what goes around often comes around, so I hear what you are saying. The age thing and the recruitment thing will be the same – watch! Glenwood today, someone else’s turn to be in the firing line tomorrow.
One thing that is missing though is your own opinion on recruitment and what you see happening going forward. Good schools are run as businesses these days. So we have a market leader. In business if you are a rival you try to match or overtake the market leader.
@Playa: I disagree. In comments above it was questioned if this recruitment issue was out of hand based on number of recruits. This is an opportunity to show what extreme a school will now go to to get just one top player.
Re-examine what you said and add a few things:
If you already have an after school contract you are more than likely receiving pocket money already.
If you are on scholarship, everything is paid for school fees, books, boarding, uniform etc etc.
So to improve on that sort of setup, how much more rand value stuff has to be offered. This will give us a better idea of how out of hand poaching is becoming.
@RBugger: Now we are starting to think!! Let me give you another hot topic. When I say “Overage Players” the first thing that one thinks of is Siyabonga Tom and Glenwood. But what is not remembered is the 2 boys from DHS who were caught at the same time. (reference edited reference made to another incident involving a DHS player) – also from DHS. Does anybody care about this? No! Do we see constant jibes at DHS about their ‘over-age problem’ which they don’t seem to be doing much about? No! Why? Because DHS are not exactly setting scoreboards on fire. Tall poppys. No-one likes them.
@QC86: Do you think Kearsney would have had a problem last year when they were beating everyone?
@RBugger: How long is it going to take before Kearsney gets pissed off at Glenwood after taking a 50 point klap from them this weekend,and they fielding a SA invitational side ,because that is what is happening.
@QC86: Now that brings up an interesting point, Westville!!! If this is true, it brings up two points, namely, it is not just GW who should be looked at, and secondly, who the hell does the recruiting? They should be fired or shot! If you recruit 11 boys and still get beaten by a very average KC side, then you cannot spot talent to save your life, FACT!
@Beet: Can you confirm that Westville have poached/recruited/bought players? And if so, why are these seemingly mediocre players being recruited in the first place?
@beet: Hmm, if he played GK and was part of the SA u16 HP squad, he was pretty much rewarded and he received the highest honours available in his province, based on his talent at the time. What he would have received from Boland or WP after that, we will of course not know. The BBRU were prepared to gamble on his future potential with MC the interim beneficiaries, maybe his old province is just not into the gambling game, too many variables.
@RBugger: To answer that question let me tell you what i heard at your festival,and that is that 11 of the Westville squad was recruited or poached or on a bursary of some sort,and that school has 1200 learners.In my mind that is massive.
@beet: I’m sorry, but what the offer was matters very little in my view. What matters is that here is a school, throwing an offer to a boy in Grade 11, at one of the top schools in the country, with a full scholarship, with an after school contract already. In fact, I can only imagine that one can only top that offer with a little ‘pocket’ money…and therein lies another can of worms.
@QC86: Obviously this is a sore point for you and I do understand that. I have not been directly effected – for instance, if Schramm or the Doops had been poached and playing for GW last year, that would really piss me off.
Yes, there is no point in taking the boy away from Queens in his grade 11 year. I am simply trying to find out how bad the situation is in terms of numbers.
@GCollege86: I think you are getting to the crux of the criteria that I previously mentioned and setting standards for acceptable migration and unacceptable relocation:
-No relocation of scholars after gr.9
-No relocation of scholars that have already received recognition in the form of school bursaries, provincial colours or being part of the province’s Elite Squad structures
Keep it simple.
@Tjoppa: Well said Tjoppie!
@Ploegskaar: Ploegie unfortunately this does cause a few bright sun rays to shine through the dark cloud of recruitment. A boy arrives in KZN and we all cry foul because the only reason the school got him in was for rugby but they take excellent care of him plus doors open for him, things that just would not have happened if he had stayed in W/Cape.
@QC86: I think I know the player you are referring to. I would love to find out what the offer is on the table. In the above with Ploeg, we are not on about development. One player had already performed at Grant Khomo and was selected for SA u16 but whatever M/College offered him, was better than what he was getting in the W/Cape and he is a talent.
@QC86: Agree 100%. We not talking about development here. It’s a boy in Gr 11 with a scholarship and after school contract (not at the sharks) and they know that. It’s not for the benefit of the child to move him in Gr 12 or end Gr 11 and take him away from home. So who will benefit? The only winner will be the school.
I think we all miss the point here. We are fighting about the top 20 players in the school. What will the effect be for the whole school’s boys wanting to play. Let us look what professionalism has done for club rugby. Absolutely nothing before somebody woke up and said club rugby is dying. Now suddenly money is pumped into club rugby and it start to blossom again? Really only in the top level 1st teams. An avenue was opened for 20-30 players to be recognized. Have not spoke this year to clubs but know that Pretoria Police in 2013 could just field a u/19, u/21 and 2nd and 1st team. The third team was a combination of 3rd and 2nd team players. This sir is one of the star clubs in Pretoria. Why is there a lack of players – because your chance to be seen is zero nil ziltch pokol. So now everybody in SARFU jumps up and down and say club rugby is rescued. Bulldust. We are loosing a lot of schoolboy players.
Then money got their hands on Varsity Rugby. What used to be know as the hardest league in amateur rugby is now a joke. As said above if TUKS 2nds is really the best there is, then where did the other boys go.
Now money is starting to make its voice known at SBR level. The best is becoming more and more concentrated in a few TOP schools. These top schools are experiencing a drop in total boys playing. Why? Because he know he must not only compete with the boys in his own school but also with all the other boys with talent across the country. They know if the boys in the a side get injured the school will simply import a new player. So less and less boys see the value of their effort. The simply stop playing.
I predicted the end of Varsity rugby as we knew it. Now sir I predict the end of SBR as we knew it. Rugby will become the sport of a few “talented” boys. And 80% of the talent, if not more, will not be seen.
@QC86: WOW! Unbelievable!
Beet you and ploeg are talking development,i have no problem,but for Glenwood to phone one of our best players,who has already got an after school contract and has a full scholarship for cricket at our school, and our school is not floundering at the bottom of the rugby rankings.That is bullshit plain and simple.What more are they going to give that kid????
@beet: I disagree, the pool of talent is simply so big in the WC and Boland that it is impossible for the major City and Country schools to vacuum up every single one. If those that slip the net are then picked up by GarsWood or MaritzPark, so be it, and to be honest, its more of an irritation (that they were missed) that an abomination.
@RBugger: is one not an issue WTF,why on earth would a school of 1000 plus need to buy one player.
@RBugger: My point is not to pick on Glenwood though. It’s to realise that if we don’t plug the little hole soon the dam wall will burst.
@GreenBlooded: I hear what you’re saying – and we have seen the constant Glenwood bashing with our own eyes. However, I don’t think Selborne and Dale are bothered much about where Glenwood is ranked in KZN or SA for that matter. At least not enough to lead them to considering cutting ties.That’s what you as GW faithful should be concerned about.
@Beet: I do understand where you are coming from, but I also knew for a fact that this was going to be one hell of a year for GW, a dream team if you like, with what, 6 odd players returning who had CW experience.
You must remember, they still got clapped by Monument.
If each school were looking for 3-6 players, we would then be looking at, just about full on professionalism in the school boy game – which just can’t happen! It is not right.
Beet, you are very in the know, how many boys have been bought by GW?? If the number in the 1st xv is upward of 4, it is an issue.
@Ploegskaar: I’ve given my proposed blanket rule above which wouldn’t discriminate against any school or player, more or less in the same way that the age-banding rule states that an u16 can’t play u19 rugby anymore no matter how good, big or ready he is.
Also recruitment has it’s positive stories as well. The generosity of schools in KZN has helped improve the quality of lives of a few Western Cape kids who come from poor backgrounds. There is no getting away from this. W/Cape has dragged its feet in providing equal rugby opportunities to a lot of talented kids. Perhaps part of the recruitment solution lies in fixing this first
@RBugger: It’s not out of hand yet but it is causing unhappiness and has the potential to escalate.
In KZN Kearsney just got klapped by Glenwood. What if someone somewhere on Botha’s Hill is thinking if we had the extra depth of new arrivals in the form of a TH prop, hooker, lock, 2 flanks, flyhalf what would the result have been. Likewise if College and Westville are also says in addition to the two each we have, what if we had those extra players as well – how much better would our results be. The same for Hilton and Michaelhouse. So in order to compete on the same footing as Glenwood, our other schools go out and buy 3-6 players each because they realise that’s the only way they can now compete on an equal footing. Imagine what Hilton’s season would have been like with Glenwood’s hooker, TH, lock, one flank and flyhalf.
There is a potential domino effect coming as schools realise that if we can’t beat them with what we’ve got, join them in the recruitment drive
@QC86: I heard that and that is a one very poor/bad effort on Glenwoods part. But what actually transpired there? Was the boy recruited?
What I am saying, this problem is being made out to be catastrophic and I just want to find out how bad it really is?
At PBHS, we do not recruit and from what I know of KC, they do not recruit, Wynberg do not recruit… So all the schools I have contact with, do not recruit.
I just want to know how bad the situation is, based on how many GW players have been recruited from this years 1st xv?
@RBugger: It’s hyped up out of all proportion. A feeding frenzy if you will. Glenwood are not doing anything that most other schools are doing – they are just doing it to a greater degree. The tall tree catches the breeze – Glenwood are riding the crest of a wave at the moment – their rugby is consistently top 3 in the province – and people don’t like that. If the haters just took a deep breath and looked at things objectively they would know this. But if you have a preconceived idea about something it’s very easy to find evidence to support it and conversely to ignore evidence against it.
I’ve often said that the schools who find Glenwood so objectionable should form a coallition and refuse to play them. But who can cast the first stone? Not many…..
It’s an absolute shame to what some schools will do to win at all cost. In this case it’s not even about development or giving a boy a opportunity from a previous disadvantage area. This is blatantly targeting top performing players from a school from another province. What happened to the headmasters agreement from last year? Agree with you Rudi. Refuse to play any sport against these schools. Form a coalition between schools who are targeted and those who don’t participate in these practices. Let organizers of tournaments know that they refuse to play against these schools and you will see what impact that will have on these schools. I am glad that Dale and Selborne will be fighting this together. It’s about time the EC schools start standing together.
@RBugger: where have you had your head stuck up for the last 6 months,Glenwood played a boy at your festival that never attended one class at Glenwood.
Is this problem really as severe as everyone is making out? Do Glenwood really recruit as badly as everyone thinks??
I am not so sure it is as bad as what people are saying, I would be shocked if it were. How many players from this years first xv have been bought/recruited by GW, based on an actual facts?
I’m losing all respect for Glenwood!!!
@beet: Agreed
@beet: Problem is, what will the set criteria be and who will manage the Gapso-meter? If you Gaps more than five you are out, less you are ok? If you Gaps trans-provincial you are out, inter-provincial you are ok? If you Gaps PD’s you are out, CA’s you are ok?
An absolute minefield if you ask me, with many of the newly-established vigilante Gaps-Police Squad with their fingers in the cash-drawer anyway.
@beet: 100% that is the only way.
@McCulleys Workshop: That’s another problem. Everyone has a different definition of what constitutes poaching. And as a result everyone wants to keep their skeletons in the closet while disagreeing with the practices of others. So I guess first step is amnesty for past offences and draw that line in the sand now but do it together and do it loudly so that everyone can hear.
@beet: There will be no schools left to play other than PBHS
@QC86: But for as long as there’s a passive approach like discrete letter writing not much will change.
Any school that tries to fight this thing along will lose.
Not playing a culprit school is a good start but then all the schools who oppose recruitment / poaching must band together and must all boycott the culprit schools.
@Playa: only a handful of schools are the culprits and nobody will play them, it will soon stop.
@QC86: 100% behind that stance. This is the only way to go if we are to get rid of this madness.Maybe it won’t kill the process, but the more schools take this stance, festivals and tours will become less and less popular, schools will become more reluctant to send boys to Craven Week and Grant Khomo trials.Lots of long term problems that can come with this.
Imagine what the SACS-KES debacle will do for the Joburg festivals? The Kearsney Festival will suffer the same fate.Schools will just play within their regions. Of course, that won’t stop recruiters from being present there.
I heard yesterday that Dale and Selborne are drafting a letter to Glenwood to break all sporting ties with them,sounds like some of the first team players have received phone calls and offers, and the East Cape schools are gatvol of this.My feeling is that if more schools took this type of stance this practice would stop.
@McCulleys Workshop: I also can’t see it happening.
One thing is for sure stopping it requires something more substantial than a few state schools agreeing to conduct themselves in an honorable way. Whats needed is proper rules in black and white and signed off.
The schools that are resisting recruitment at the moment need to decide very quickly what they want to do. Passive resistance is not going to get them far. In fact they will just fall further behind. They need to be out there publicly pressing the matter and drumming up support for national rules. Or they need to start recruiting themselves. Otherwise the playing fields are not even, they lose matches, everyone things that the schools who are heavily dependent of bringing in the best instead of developing them from gr.8 are great, and they thing the winning school somehow has the best facilities, teachers and academic results as well.
In the absence of not being able to establish national rules, establish rules amongst your traditional rivals and then don’t play anyone outside that circle.
I’ve mentioned this before. The hard and fast rule should be when changing schools education is a priority so no student should be deprived of receiving the best academic opportunities however involvement in rugby must be restricted in order to avoid a greater evil from consuming the school system and encouraging schools to spend a disproportionate amount on rugby. Therefore in relation to rugby even if a student changes schools for rugby related reasons and not academics, a residency rule should apply before he qualifies to enjoy the benefits of what the new school has to offer him in rugby: 12 months of playing no higher than a B-team and 24 months before he can represent the new province if he is from outside the region. Make it part of a Boksmart qualification for schools if possible.
Effectively any u16 boy arriving at a new school from a different province after the July holidays forfeits the right to play at Grant Khomo and Craven Week. But he’ll probably get the opportunity to have a great education, sound rugby training and 1 year of 1st XV rugby (2 years if he’s u19)
@beet: Hi Beet, what or who would stop this polarisation in School rugby? I can’t see it. As long as the current culture/ego play, of the importance of a world dominating 1st rugby side continues, and as long as parents make education decision based on that criteria (does the school have a strong rugby/sports program) then the concentration at a fewer number of super schools will continue. And so will the fees escalate for the non scholarship kids to fund those on scholarship – simple. It possibly hits a cross road with a financial crisis at a point?
@Tjoppa: There are already a few schools who see the path forward for powerhouse schools is a super league which would include just a few elite schools. So the mindset does exist out there that the SBR system should be shrunk to be more elitist sport. I say rather look after the overall health of SA rugby which has been achieved through a strong school rugby system that spreads the talent catching net wide by encouraging many to participate.
@beet: Two seasons ago there was talks that Fezelas or TUKS 2nds will also participate in the Carlton Cup. This reasoning was supported by the massive margins achieved by Fezelas against the other top club’s second teams. But it is very sad to say Fezelas does not have the players anymore. What the solution is, only the bravest and the Bulls will be able to tell you. But varsity rugby like I knew it is gone forever and my biggest worry is that this is going to happen to SBR. Rugby is fast moving to a game for the few fortunate “performers”. And thereby losing out on a massive pool of talent.
@Tjoppa: Tjoppa the rugby environment in South Africa is unique and probably changing at a faster rate than anywhere else in the world. One thing that can’t apply is trying to use old models to solve modern day problems. What we need in restructuring that takes current and future needs into account.
The rugby unions want rugby players ready for pro rugby at the speed McDonald’s is able to serve a customer. They are prepared to manipulate any system they can be it club, varsity, school to achieve this goal. Somewhere in the modern day rugby model a place has to be made for the sit down and eat restaurant goer, who’s prepared to wait a lot longer for a quality product. IOW we need a different rugby environment created for players either are not mainsteam or who develop at a slower rate but have the potential to reach the same end goal as the fast food processed player.
Anyway any system that hopes to be a success needs a good motivated leader at the helm. Not much can be achieved if the leaders in rugby spheres can’t keep pace with the changing times.
For this Tuks issue, to an outsider like me the restructure seems simple enough. Don’t call them Tuks 1 and 2, come up with other names that don’t suggest one team is superior to the other. Then find a way to redistribute players between two teams and let them both play in the Carlton Cup. That way there are more places, more incentive for the non-Bulls students and fewer will lost to rugby due to disillusionment
I reported a while ago my feeling that rugby at Universities is going to die due to Varsity Cup and the professionalism it brought. Well I saw it this weekend. The kombi attended the Carlton Cup games between Naka and Tuks. And the Fezelas, being TUKS 2, were lucky to beat a few overweight toppies and underfed youngsters. What makes this astonishing is that the Fezelas used to be part of the Carlton Cup and talks two seasons ago was to re allow them participation in the Carlton Cup. Definitely not anymore. They were hopeless.
The first team full of the Bulls wannabees still had a comfortable win. But my oh my. Then starting to talk to boys next to the field. And this is their story – the biggest walkout of players was experienced this year due to the argument that they can be as good as any “Bulls” players available but will simply not be picked due to the control the Bulls have over selection of Tuks 1. These players, that joined the other clubs, resulted in better competition at first team level but also led to a lot of talented players stop playing rugby. Professional rugby led to the demise of smaller rugby unions, then club rugby, and now varsity rugby when will somebody listen and do something to save rugby for the ordinary people. The next “victim” will be schoolboy rugby. Rugby is supposed to be played by all.