I leveled some perhaps unfair criticism over the state of Free State schools rugby. It’s certainly not meant to be an attack on the efforts made by schools to train players and produce good teams. It’s more concern over the growing divide between the top school Grey College and the rest in terms of competitiveness. The Free State (including the Griffons) definitely produces enough talented players to ensure that several of its schools would be highly competitive from a national point of view but preventing this is the concentration of talent at just one school only. It’s now gotten to the point that Grey College’s 2nd XV, the Cherries are the second best team in the entire province. This is where the concern lies.
Although the other regions of South Africa are not free of this “problem”, the situation is nowhere as obvious as that of the Free State. There are regional “powerhouse” schools that will now badly beat schools that once upon a time provided them with stiff opposition. Yes one can say its the coaching, the rugby facilities, maybe even the academic opportunities that play a part but at the end of the day it’s down to the rugby talent drift away from smaller less successful schools to the “powerhouses” that is resulting in the growing divide. Fortunately tiers consisting of more than one school do exist in other regions. The result is that there is still a degree of even competitiveness and therefore great motivation for boys to play the sport. In other words in the Western Cape, Eastern Cape, KZN, Noordvaal and a few other smaller centres within these regions, schools are still able to get by on healthy local rivalries before they even turn their attentions to the competition outside of their regions. Case in point, this weekend sees highly anticipated clashes between Klofies and Affies (Noordvaal), College and Glenwood (KZN), St Andrews and Grey High (Eastern Cape) and Outeniqua vs Oakdale (Western Cape). School rugby followers may be able to predict the outcomes of these games up and coming matches with a measure of accuracy but over a period of time the results achieved vary from year to year because of the healthy state of competitiveness brought about by a more even distribution of talent between the schools.
In the Free State we see a different situation unfolding. In no way attacking Grey College for what has transpired or looking down at the other well-known rugby school. It’s just pointing to the facts. Grey no longer has suitable rivals within the boundaries of the Free State. This isn’t news to anyone really. It’s been like that for years now. 2013 has however revealed that matters did not stabilise there. Grey is not the number one team in South Africa in 2013 but it has become stronger relative to its neighbouring schools. To repeat, the second best team in the Free State is the Cherries.
It’s admirable that these other schools 1st XV’s agree to play against the Grey Cherries and that Grey takes the initiative to seek out meaningful challenges for all its teams, however is this situation good for schoolboy rugby in the Free State? It doesn’t seem like this will mark the end of growing gap either. There are bound to be spin-offs from a 2nd xv beating 1st XV’s. From a rugby perspective and perhaps even an overall image of the institutions, the negative rugby associations with attending Bloemfontein schools like Sentraal, Jim Fouche and perhaps even Louis Botha look certain to have a profound effect on the quality of rugby these schools are able to deliver in the years to come. Drawn by the attraction of playing for the Grey Cherries rather than the 1st XV of another local school, a further drain of rugby talent at these schools may soon see the Grey College 3rd XV taking them on.
There is an understanding that some schools will always be better than others at rugby, will have more participants and hence more depth. But does any regional powerhouse school from any other region wish for the situation that now exists in the Free State. A situation in which they are so much stronger than the second best team in the region than their 2nd team has to play that school in order to produce a fair contest. Personally I don’t think so and I don’t think it’s in South African school rugby interests as a whole either.
Where does the solution lie? Is there even a solution? Does this issue eventually pose a threat rugby being played at smaller schools at some point in the future? Is this issue being blown out of proportion?
My feeling is that the so called “previously disadvantaged” is gradually being replaced by the currently disadvantaged. Currently disadvantaged are players from smaller schools who no longer seem to enjoy the benefits of those from the powerhouses. Perhaps future quota systems needs to look past addressing the colour bar issue and reward boys irrespective of race who attend and play rugby at these smaller schools. This would be in an effort to ensure the survival of the sport at these institutions.
Your opinions on the matter would be appreciated.
The Cherries have historically been strong that just not start the last few years there wins over 1st teams goes back to the 50,s
@Woltrui: @Queenian: Be quite fun seen the Cherries kicking Queens butts
@Woltrui: Ye they could beat them i suppose.
@Queenian: And imagine what the Cherries will do with the “powerfull” Queens
I will through this out there let the following schools 1st teams travel to Bloem and play the Cherries. SACS/Bishops/Grey PE/Selborne/Framesby/Glenwood/MC/Westville/Monnas/Garsie,s
If maybe 1 of them beat the Cherries i would be surprised.
Beet: I think your sentence which says it has now got to the stage were the Cherries are the second best team in the province is un healthy for SBR is not correct this would have been the same point in task say in 1967/1972/1973 and at least 40 other years maybe because of the social media we have now everybody has now become aware of this so they think it is new.
@Grasshopper: Agree with you there.
I think with school politics, coach bias etc many schools 2nd teams would beat their 1sts if they played, but that never happens, maybe just in practice. At Grey the 3rds are probably good enough for 1st tier opponents!
@BOG: And others here making statements!
I know that i throw alot of banter on this site about GCB and to Bog himself but i would like to state the following:
To think they Grey Cherries have now suddenly become good or at least the same level as other schools first teams is very far off the mark my involvement with Grey College as somebody who has played against them or watched them and who knows alot of people at this great school goes back to the 60,s and i can tell you this they have always being this good i can remember Cherries teams in the early seventies that were better than 95% of schools first teams in SA.
To say now that they beat another schools 1st team in the Free State that the level of the other schools is poor or much weaker than other provinces is far from the truth. The Cherries would at any given time beat at least 40% of the current Top 20 or 75% of the Top 50 so by them beating a Free State school does not make Free State as such weak.
Put the Cherries in EC/WP/KZN or any such province and they would beat alot of there 1st XV,s.
The gap between the GCB 1st XV and the Cherries has always been extremly close just as much now as it was in 1970 so there is nothing new in what is happening.
Bog tell me if i am not correct here.
@Djou: I must say I think Pretoria is in revolt. Club rugby is changing with the amount of disgruntled Tuks players leaving. Last year we had two Super Clubs, TUKS and Police, now both are struggling to stamp their authority. Pretoria Club rugby is in for a big change this year. Bog things are changing and rapidly. The Carlton Cup is becoming the old. The most challenging club competition in SA. And unions like the Pumas, Falcons and even Leopards can be seen during games. If the Bulls do not want them the other unions are on the prey.
@Djou: Financial realities, internationally, sooner than most realise, will force them to comply. Rugby is in for a gigantic shock, like most other sectors of society.
@Tjoppa: That is good news. I am all for recruitment, but the unions should stay out or chage their ways and view the kids as people and not instruments they can throw around as they wish. I however doubt that it will happen
@Djou: I know and understand that those score comparisons are not trustworthy and simply used them as a guideline in the absence of anything else. Something which is often overlooked, is the attitude which Grey must face or contend with, week after week. This is not meant arrogantly, but schools often approach their encounter with Grey, like a military operation- planned months in advance, because if they win, those kids will talk about that victory for decades. I agree that social engineering has always been with us, albeit in a more “sophisticated” manner. Its an evil I feel very strongly about and the reason why I was disadvantaged in both dispensations- why in some quarters, I was deemed a communist before 1994 and a fascist after that.
@Djou: Social engineering. Contact Bog. Heard yesterday that the Tuks agreement with the Bulls grinding to a slow halt. Apparently players who can not attend all practices being dropped etc. The playing field is leveling out my friend.
@Tjoppa: I surmise Pote passed the tests.
But then how do you solve the problem in the Free State with good coaches but no players!
@Djou: Just little info on Pote. He had to wright his coaching level 1 and 2 exams after been appointed at the Bulls. But yes do agree to a certain point. Waterkloof was the big problem and now Garsfontein is. I still say that Pretoria has a big enough pool of talent that with the right coaching will be competitive countrywide.
I am a believer that when you want to fix a problem start at the bottom. The top is where the rot is. I know in the west/north of Pretoria the high schools are getting involved with the primary schools coaching and only with that is stopping to a certain extend the movement to the east. And can not wait for a giant to rise.
@Bog: I am with you on the educational system issue.
@Bog: We know by now you can’t go at scores to judge a school team. Grey’s first team coach once said: “On the day, any team can win and on another day the losing team can win. Among the top schools it is too close to call”.
Social engineering has and still is happening all over the world. For instance, pre-1994 it was impossible to get a top job at a certain bank had you not studied at a certain university. And at another bank, another university’s graduates got the jobs. The same happened at many of the Top 40 listed companies. I won’t even mention the role played by institutions such as the Broederbond. So, you can say it was informal, but it happened. As for rugby, you only need to read the history books (pre 1994) to see the social engineering applied when selecting the Springbok team – and certain provincial teams. A selector case of “I will back you on that player if you back me on my player”.
@Tjoppa: A coach can only coach the talent he has. I know Pote Human at some point coached at Garsies and if I am not mistaken Garsies lost by 100 against Waterkloof – and I regard Pote as a top coach. Conversely, Waterkloof got imports from all over Pretoria and even Brits before they started winning on a constant basis. If their coaches were so good, why then need to recruit? The answer is obvious – you need players who can compete on a higher level.
@Grasshopper: No everybody loves competition just think why they ban steriods. It gives you an unfair advantage. That is what we hate.
In Glenwoods case…its kids move…not and families.
@Tjoppa: ok, you tell me then! Jeez okes have a vendetta with Glenwood just because they are more competitive now.
Bottom line is this! The decline and collapse of the education system, is going to increase the demand for places in a few selected schools which, against all odds, have been able to maintain reasonable standards. Just like the collapse of security in SA, the demand for homes in security complexes surrounded by 6 foot walls and electric fencing above that, will increase. In 15-20 years from now, when the population and the unemployed double in size, even that will become inadequate and new requirements will develop ( like armed convoys to shopping malls, church and the movies) Those who have lived elsewhere in Africa, will know that I am not necessarily joking. So, too, will the demands for education, in a declining or collapsing society, change. Thats an unfortunate reality of the times that we live in.
@Grasshopper: 33%????? No sir.
@Tjoppa: I would say 15 of the squad of 22 would say yes. About 7 have joined since grade 8……..many schools are the same as this…..I think Kearsney is the only one who can claim the whole squad was there from grade 8. Kids and families move, it’s part of life…..
@BOG:But Bog but this social engineering might loose you a lot of rugby players but imagine the influx of attractive girls. Then your malls can also look like Menlynn and your beaches like Clifton and Durban. Maybe not a bad thing hey Bog.
I am not going to repeat everything that I said elsewhere, but going to Grey certainly involves a lot more than just playing rugby. I ask this with tongue in the cheek, but are you “closet socialists”, suggesting some social engineering plan to ensure the “equal distribution” of talent- not only rugby, but also everything else? I have asked this question before and do so again. How would these “other” schools from Bloemfontein perform against opposition in KZN, Gauteng and the Capes? They may not always win, but they would certainly not be humiliated either. This is guessing, I know, but would think that they would beat 1st tier KZN sides, 70% of the times, Gauteng and WC sides, 50-60% and EC sides abouy 70 % of their encounters. Both HTS Louis Botha and Sentraal played Waterkloof recently and narrowly lost , 3-15 and 20-25 recently. Jim Fouche, beat Sentaal last weekend. Klofies in turn, beat Garsies yesterday. So, my guessing is strongly supported by recent results. What has been a natural migration of learners in pursuit of academic excellence from every conceivable location in SA and beyond for more than a century, has now become recruitment and buying, simply because of GCBs achievements on the rugby field. Many of the learners have come from small communities where the schools have never had the same sporting facilities as in the larger centres. With the decline (some would say collapse) of education in those small towns, the situation has got worse with an increase in demand for a spot in the “bigger” schools. And its going to get a LOT worse! And this by the way, applies to all the bigger schools in the cities.Quite frankly, other reasons for GCBs successes should be looked at, on and off the rugby field- the total “package” of what Grey represents and stands for. Or maybe they should consider a kind of handicap system, like tying their boot laces together on the rugby field, forcing them to swim in winter only(in the FS) and denying the learners text books to study from.
Otherwise read that very good piece by Bertus Preller on the school, which I suggested.
@Grasshopper: Do a simple test. Ask the boys in your 1st fifteen to raise their hands if the were in Glenwood in 8th grade.
@Djou: As I previously said I am opposed to child trafficking. I do not see this as the answer.
Garsfontein is performing because of two reasons (1) Imports and (2) COACHING. I also think if the coaches are honest they will admit three years ago it was substandard. I am going to make a prediction tonight – Garsfontein WILL be one of the best rugby schools in Pretoria for years to come, without their imports, because of the current coaching staff.
So the answer is jack up your coaching staff it is working, and cheaper. We all know what happens if you sell your soul.
@Tjoppa: one kid, not sure who the others were or are……?
@Grasshopper: Fact is you still are the school the Sharks send their signed schoolboys to. And fact is not healthy for SBR in your region.
@Tjoppa: Normally you make very good points, but on this one I must disagree with you. Up to the late 1980’s you always found three to four teams in the Free State who provided some stiff competition to Grey (not always winning but also not losing by a big margin). However, the situation deteriorated a lot. Ask me, as a schoolboy, we did not look forward playing Grey because there was no enjoyment in losing by 50 points and the game being stopped early. In fact, it was so demoralising you did not want to pitch up for rugby practice. Therefore I am a proponent for more schools of strength as it will only benefit the game. I can understand why Garsfontein and Glenwood did what the schools did. Or would you prefer them continuing to lose by 50 to 100 points. The alternative would have been to also not playing Klofies, Affies, MC etc. So, if this situation was to be applied across the country, you would end up with 8 to 10 strong rugby schools in SA. And therefore not a lot to choose from for the professional unions. Now, schools such as Garsfontein, Glenwood and Menlo Park preferred to go a different route and I congratulate them for that. Because they gave boys from other regions a chance to participate at the highest level – opportunities they would not have received had they stayed where they came from. A win-win situation for both and at the same tiime increasing the number of schools of strentgth which also benefits SA rugby.
And another point, don’t forget, Waterkloof became strong precisely because they followed the same route Garsfontein, Glenwood and Menlo Park is following now.
And I am sure you are not that naive to think that Waterkloof’s newly build hostel is for boys in the Waterkloof vicinity? Waterkloof might have said no to the Bulls, but they are recruiting for sure – from outside Pretoria – and therefore they also have as you call it “imports”. In the same way Affies has imports and Grey has imports and Monnas has imports.
My view is the other schools in the Free State will have to go the same route by initially recruiting from outside their regions (imports) if they want to become competitive again – just like Harmony Sports Academy did. If not, rugby will die a slow death in the Free State.
@Tjoppa: boet Glenwood is not a start up school who recently got good at rugby, it’s 103 years old and had gone through strong and weak phases. In fact in the 1920’s they beat Maritzburg College many times and were probably the strongest in KZN for a few years. Please don’t lump and old traditional school like Glenwood with a new school like Garsies. Glenwood have had a max of 4 players brought in by a union in the past 3 years, we all know about Marne and hopefully that never happens again! That said, on this story the Glenwood, Westville, College and Kearsey 2nd teams could probably beat a number of schools 1st teams including Port Natal, George Campbell and DHS…..
100% Beet. What you left out is that this situation will only worsen, until the unions stop interfering and placing students at certain schools. In Pretoria we already saw schools like Affies and Waterkloof said no to such placements. Unfortunately the unions involvement will cause “powerhouses” like Garsfontein and Glenwood to rise and only the strong schools, financially and morally will be able to counter this. Lesser schools, like Eldoraign, will fall to the wayside and be lost.
I am not knowledgeable with the situation at Grey and Free State. Therefore can only express my views what is happening in Tswane. And there the Unions is the biggest reason for the lesser schools to stop playing rugby. A disgrace if you ask me.