The 2012 KZN 1st XV Rankings

 

When it comes to ranking the top school teams in KZN, there are any number of ways to go about it. For the purposes of keeping it simple, a pretty fair system of awarding 2 points for a win, 1 for a draw and 0 for a loss has been used below.

Also to note is that this is an attempt measure the so-called Tier 1 KZN rugby schools only. It is therefore based on how these Tier 1 teams performed against each other. It excludes results against schools from outside the borders of KZN plus it limits the number of KZN schools to just those that play at least 5 or more games against the other traditional top KZN schools. This means that it is quite possible for a situation where one team is ranked higher than another in KZN only to be reversed when looking at the overall national rankings that obviously take ALL results against ALL teams into account.

Scenario 1 includes George Campbell and St Charles, 2 schools that each played 5 games against the other measured schools. In this scenario it is necessary to use an average points per game in order to gain parity because all teams would not have played the same number of games.

Scenario 2 excludes George Campbell and St Charles, leaving 8 schools that all played against each other this season and therefore eliminating the need for averaging.

Finally with the Hilton-Michaelhouse return fixture coming up and the College-Glenwood return game set to be played next term, consideration will have to be given to how those results are incorporated into both scenarios. Here the fairest treatment seems to be one of going back and reallocating only half the points on offer to each game, i.o.w. 1 point for a win instead of 2.

Scenario 1

Scenario 2

49 Comments

  1. I agree statistically and mathematically this is correct, but like all ranking systems does not take into account other factors like if the games were home or away, the weather on the day, injuries, previously game workload etc. Glenwood, College and Kearsney have had huge workloads with regards to preseason games etc. I mean Glenwood played 11 games in 7 weeks before the main local season began. I do think Michaelhouse deserve their top ranking but if they had played more tough games against opposition outside of KZN they may have battled. One just needs to look at Michaelhouse’s biggest scalp, who was that? Kearsney? Anyway, well done to Michaelhouse. Next year is going to be interesting with the usual big 4 (College, Glenwood, Westville and Kearsney) battling it out for the top spot. Personally I think it will be between Westville and Kearsney, with Glenwood and College close behind…

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  2. Glenwood’s huge workload and crazy fixture list;

    Team Home or Away Points For Points Against W/L/D
    Westville A 9 13 L
    Michaelhouse H 14 13 W
    Noord Kaap Pukke 18 13 W
    Framesby Pukke 7 22 L
    Potch Volkskool Pukke 33 19 W
    Monument Kearsney 25 18 W
    Dale College Kearsney 24 24 D
    Queens College Kearsney 32 12 W
    George Campbell H 34 19 W
    Hilton A 19 18 W
    Paarl Gim Wildeklawer 25 35 L
    Outeniqua Wildeklawer 12 32 L
    Northwood H 20 8 W
    Kearsney H 14 20 L
    Pinetown H 74 0 W
    DHS (OB’s Day) H 34 9 W
    College H 16 16 D
    KZN Dev H
    Affies A
    College A
    Grey Bloem H

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  3. grasshopper , i agree , like how does it work now with Glenwood and PMB College in the 2nd match , means GW could make spot one maybe lol

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  4. @Greenhopper: I don’t think Glenwood can back to top spot which ever way you look at it. The best they can hope to achieve now is 3rd spot.

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  5. Rankings are subject to all sorts of variables. The problem I have is the workload of some teams and the total lack of it with others. Take away the Easter festivals (Most schools now have something) and look at the season proper. There is no doubt that Glenwood and College are at a distinct disadvantage due to the fixtures they play. MHS play absolutely no-one of note outside of the traditional KZN games. Kearsney also have a relatively easy run with St Stithians etc. Unfortunately you cannot take all this into account so are left with results. Please dont take this as an excuse, but an example is the 2 week lead up to MHS VS College. MHS have a free weekend and then a game against Hilton. College play Paul Roos, Diamantveld and KES (all away) and then MHS away. Which team is going to be nice and fresh????

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  6. @All Black: I’m not quite sure how to read this … firstly you say take away the festivals and look at the season proper and then you include Paul Roos and Diamantveld in your debate (both games played at Wildeklawer Festival)??

    Having said that, I don’t think you can simply discount the festivals – these are high intensity affairs with teams taking the field every 2 or 3 days which certainly puts pressure on the boys physically.

    As far as results go, I would say St Stithians and PBHS are pretty similar opposition this year (PBHS winning 17-14 in their clash with Saints), so the only real difference in the “season proper” is KES. Yes, College and Glenwood continue into the 3rd term but that is irrelevant at this stage of the season so we can discount those games up till now.

    In terms of Glenwood, yes I agree, their fixture list for 2012 was diabolical, maybe a case of poor management.

    Bottom line, the two private schools have answered their critics where it matters – on the field – there can be no further debate or excuse as to which teams are KZN’s leaders in 2012 as it’s pretty clear to see.

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  7. Easter Festivals.(Those in the holidays if not over Easter). Grey P.E., Kearsney, Kes etc. Not all festivals. Almost all schools are involved over this period. Wildeklawer is after this and during the season and does not include all teams. Not going to argue backwards and forwards. If you feel that MHS Kearsney have the same workload etc then so be it.

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  8. Also teams like St Charles, George Campbell, Pinetown for some etc. I think Kearsney played Voortrekker? Not sure of that. Anyway it all comes down to what each school is happy with. If you cannot see the difference between the scenarios then I am wasting my time.

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  9. i believe that no matter the workload the top two teams in kzn this year have to be kearsney and michaelhouse, and this would be purely based on the results of the top teams in kzn against each other. Yes some of the other teams had hectic schedules it must be agreed however when it comes to kzn results they speak for themselves.

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  10. Some suggestions for Glenwood next year
    Skip the inland Fest matches – Wildeklaver & Pukke – Go for Kearney Easter Fest – just up the road less travelling ,less fatigue etc etc
    Play home & away games against Kzn’s No. 5 Westville – We still play Affies, Grey Bloem and challenge KES for a match

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  11. Well worked out. Those who choose to play more more games do so at their own risk. The rankings can only be worked out the way you have done it. Well done Beet.

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  12. @Greenwood: 100% mate. I think we need to play the Kearsney festival and leave it at that. On the domestic scene – relegate the Pinetown and Voortrekker fixtures to staggers on the days we play the likes of Kearsney, Michaelhouse and other smaller schools who cannot field a full compliment of teams. Use these 2 days to play return matches against Westville and DHS. We should also look at playin the likes of Kloof, Hillcrest, Thomas More etc as staggers for the lower teams. I watched the Kloof / Hillcrest derby this weekend and I would say either team would be a good match for Glenwood’s 3rds or 4ths.

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  13. @Greenwood and Greenblooded. totally agree with you. I don’t think Glenwood are contracted to either Wildeklawer or Kearsney Festivals next year. Pukke may also have come to an end, so I think we will be looking for a couple of festivals to attend in 2013, maybe KES and Grey PE if we are not invited to College’s 150th festival. If we go to KES then we will get a chance to play KES, hopefully. Three festivals and an overseas tour was far too many and definitely affected the teams performances locally. The Marne and Tom debacles also unsettled things. 2012 will not go down as a memorable year unless we can beat Grey Bloem at home to end the season. 2013 will be an inexperienced side with only Rupert Kay, Corne Vermaak, Spam Ncgobo and Mazibuko returning. However, we will have some grade 11’s in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th’s coming back and combining with a decent Under16 group, so they could surprise a few. Hopefully with less expectation they will be able to relax and enjoy their rugby. I too would like a return fixture with Westville instead of playing Pinetown. Westville vs Glenwood has become the real heated Durban derby of late so I think 2 games would be great.

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  14. @All, my ideal season for Glenwood in 2013;

    1) Voortrekker/Port Natal – preseason trials games
    2) Northwood
    3) George Campbell
    4) Grey PE Festival – 2 games
    5) St Stithians/St Johns/ College 150th/KES Festival – 2 games
    6) Hilton
    7) Westville (away)
    8) Michaelhouse
    9) DHS
    10) Kearsney
    11) College (away)
    12) Westville (home)
    13) Affies
    14) College (home)
    15) Grey Bloem

    That is 17 games in a season, perfect! A down the line fixture with Pretoria Boys High or KES would be great too for all the sides

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  15. Glenwood 2013 – i’ve always suggested that we play staggered matches against 2nd tier schools – wud like to see Kloof , Hillcrest , Werda, Gelofte , Porties Thomas Moore and others play GWD 2nds 3rds or 4th – some of these schools are strong – Gelofte , Suid Natal – Good for Kzn Rugby
    Glenwood shud also think about a mini Fest & get KES, PBHS & the like to play one weekend early season at the school – there are no tier 1 Fests within Durban City limits – not that I can recall – maybe GWD can do something about this

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  16. @All Black and Greenwood, all get rid of Affies and replace them with Pretoria Boys High, far more in our league, especially down the line. We can only compete with Affies at A level, after that it’s 50’s and 60’s. PBHS have the same plight so strength would be similar. Same can be said for KES…

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  17. Hopper: Got to have those big test games. Last year College got hammerd in the first game against Affies in Pretoria. On Goldstones, with a depleted side, College were on Affies line late in the 2nd half with the score 12-6. Knock on over the line resulted in a 60m try for Affies. Lesson learnt by the boys is that if you want something and you are prepared to fight for it….. College play Affies, PBHS twice and KES. Great rivalry and friendships. If you dont play PBHS then that is a must. Hosting them and Affies boys is a pleasure.

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  18. To be honest, I believe the best way forward for schools like College and Glenwood is to stop playing schools that ask for staggers for their lower teams but put so much emphasis on getting boys in for their 1st teams. If it means travelling then so be it. 17 games is good for a season, 4 festival games against Cape schools and then PBHS twice, Affies, Kes, Northwood, Westville twice, Glenwood twice, DHS (Hopefully), Monument/Waterkloof, Kearsney?, Grey. I would rather up the amount of home and away games than play staggers.

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  19. @All Black, agreed. The only 3 schools in KZN that can field more than 25 teams is College, Glenwood and Westville. Most of the other schools play staggers, especially the smaller private schools like Hilton, Kearsney and Michaelhouse. The poor DHS form of the last decade has also led to staggers against them. So to not play a school because of staggers would rule those 4 traditional rivals out, which won’t happen. I do feel for the boys playing E, F, G and H teams only playing about 6 games a season, 2 against College, 2 against Westville, Grey Bloem and Affies. The last 2 getting hammered. That is why I suggested Pretoria Boys and KES as they are the closest schools outside of KZN that can field more than 25 teams. If only the Glenwood headmaster could build a relationship with these 2 schools, we used to have one with them in athletics in the annual pentangular that College usually won.

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  20. @All Black, I also like the inclusion of a foreign team in the schedule, but they must be a strong foreign team. Glenwood used to play one every year but the results were very one sided, big wins. I think College taking of Dulwich College from the UK is great, they are a top side in the UK. Good luck to College against Affies, Dulwich and PBHS in July. The 4th of August at Goldstones will be very interesting and will be the battle for 3rd in the province, well in my eyes it’s the battle for the top considering the 2 schools fixture lists. College should be almost back to full quota with the long rest, unless there are injuries at Craven Week. I think if College had not lost Kriel at KES your season would have gone better. He is a prodigy and hopefully recovers fully to play for the Sharks Under19’s.

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  21. @All Black – I wouldn’t like to see fixtures against traditional schools get scrapped altogether – rather the staggers can be mixed with some of the smaller schools. For example when Glenwood play DHS we could have 1st and 2nd strength for stregth and then instead of letting the 3rds have a weekend off to sit on the beach we can bring in Hillcrest 1sts vs Glenwood 3rds, DHS 3rds vs Glenwood 4ths, Thomas Moore 1sts vs Glenwood 5ths etc. The same would apply to fixtures against Kearsney, Michaelhouse and Hilton where the likes of Pinetown, Kloof, Gelofte, Voortrekker, Linpark, Clifton, St Charles etc to be used as the fillers. I’m sure all would benefit from this.

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  22. @All Black: @Grasshopper: I spoke to a Glenwood mom with a son who’s a promising player in an A team. The travelling costs were hurting her pocket. Even at KERF, a Paul Roos Gym parent told me he had to pay ±R8000.00 up front for his son’s trips. Then there were costs of him and the missus to factor in: petrol, accommodation, meals etc. Personally I say thank goodness for a team like George Campbell that can double up with Clifton and perhaps another school but most importantly at least offer the first team some good resistance at an affordable price.

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  23. @Beet, yep it must be tough for the parents to fork out for all these trips. I think that is where sponsorship and paying at the gate comes into the fold, to pay for these tours. That is why I agree, Glenwood should only play in 2 festivals. If they want to do all this travelling then they need proper support from the KZN Rugby Union or a corporate sponsor, maybe Puma or Sportsmanwarehouse etc.

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  24. Beet. Costs are an issue but there are ways around this. The point is that teams are not getting games when College, Glenwood play MHS, Kearsney etc. I know that Kerasney will not feature at a College reunion day again due to the 10am start and the need for other schools to be included. I am also pushing for staggers to be refused. Looking at the results of many of the staggered games, the smaller school won. Sometimes by a big score. Too many smaller schools have the money to buy a top 1st team or A teams and then stagger the rest. Not fair. You also have teams without games. You have to see it from the other side as well. If the costs can be absorbed into sponsorship etc then you are going to see a change in fixtures. Some traditional games are going to fall away against private schools unfortunately.

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  25. @All Black: I think its honourable for a school to consider the wellbeing all their rugby players and not just the elite ones when setting up fixtures. So from purely a rugby perspective if I understand you correctly College would consider dropping Kearsney, Michaelhouse, Hilton, DHS and Northwood and replacing them with possibly 2nd leg fixtures against Westville, KES, PBHS, Affies and maybe adding Grey College to make up 5 (although DHS and Northwood are bending over backwards to improve their rugby, I can’t ever see them wanting to field more than 20 teams ever again). For College this would amount to a lot more travelling and all the associated costs for the sake of making sure 9-10 teams get to play a non-staggered game. Perhaps an alternative approach is spending more money researching ways to make local staggered games work so that it becomes a case of strength vs strength, which is one of the objectives that are being sort after by playing the larger schools that have more teams.

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  26. Beet: I am not talking for the school. It is just thoughts. Northwood are getting back to a strength (and numbers) that would justify a full set of fixtures (hopefully). DHS has the numbers and one is also hoping that they get back to strength vs strength. Both schools have the ability to do this. I can tell you that staggers only help the private schools you mention and not the bigger schools. Whilst there is always the need to protect long term relationships I see things changing in the future. Once again a personal view but one I support. If a school is happy to bring in top players for their A teams then they must be prepared to perform in the lower teams as well. It is not just about the top teams. Kids are either not getting games or have to travel to other schools on a sat. When College play MHS, Hilton or Kearsney there are teams travelling to Westville or Glenwood to give both schools a game. The obvious solution is therefore to play these schools twice anyway. It does not necessarily mean this is anyone’s intent. It would be a natural process. College have brought in the ‘Maritzburg day’ that has Voortrekker, Carter etc all playing at College against varying teams. This works well as they are all local schools and all teams play at College (where possible). The point is that should a school offer a full schedule then they would get preference. With travel etc opening up it does offer the bigger schools more options.

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  27. By the way, the travel costs for a normal sat trip to JHB is not huge. It is more the festival or tournament costs for the A or 1st teams that get expensive. Most of these boys are on bursaries and hence the saving there. My thoughts are about the entire school. With hosting it is just the bus cost that needs to covered/sponsored. Works very well. Except when you travel all the way to Pretoria and get washed out by torrential rain.

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  28. beet firstly , well done on the site , it seems to be getting more and more followers , once again well done

    let see what happens with Hilton Kearsney this weekend, then lets judge

    i agree on the issue, all the boys want games on the weekends and bringing in tier 2 schools will help swell the games as well as the whole “vibe” of the day of rugby, many schools wish to play the likes of College, Westville and Glenwood and allows them to build strength as well, it also allows the boys at these schools to see where if they weren’t in that school what level they would be playing at
    If it requires three schools to come in and play the 20 odd so or teams these schools can put up , I can’t see how this is a bad thing

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  29. Greenhopper: Spare a thought for the staff at the bigger schools trying to co-ordinate these days.

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  30. @All Black: For sure. Should have made my reply clearer. It’s just your proposal and not necessarily the line of thinking of the school.
    Obviously from my view, I’d prefer it if the lower teams could be accommodated locally at their 1st team venue on matchday, mainly coz I don’t want the rivalries to change. But having played in a lower team myself, I don’t recall ever having to travel to another venue or miss a match coz the opposition couldn’t field a team, so I can imagine how kak and left out some boys must feel on certain Saturdays in the season.
    I also think the Northwood and DHS programmes will be centred around quality and not quantity in the immediate future and therefore there is likely to be non-staggered healthy compo between them and the private schools amongst lower teams.
    The other thing that you have touched on that is important, is that the rugby landscape is changing all the time and being proactive is certainly way better than being the last to respond to changes and then having to play catch-up.

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  31. @All, in my day (mid 90’s) Pinetown used to be very competitive and used to have over 1,400 boys. What has happened to them? Along with Northwood I think they were the biggest boys only school in the country. Have all the quality Pinetown boys now at Westville or up at Kearsney?

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  32. Beet/Hopper: Yep, when College played Hilton and MHS our attendance for the afternoon games was noticed by opposition supporters. It had to be pointed out that boys were playing in Durban etc due to the lack of games and couldn’t get back in time. On Reunion day all boys want to play at College. Unfortunately there were games at St Charles etc and other games against St Patricks. A Hilton coach had a frank discussion with us some time ago and the view is that schools will have to decide if they are ‘Super schools’ or happy to contest one level down. His opinion is that the situation will only get worse with all schools now competing for players coming out of Primary school. If DHS and Northwood start attracting boys on a large scale then Kearsney, Glenwood, Westville etc will be affected. College as well but to a far less degree. Hence numbers will be more evenly spread which will affect the smaller schools and their depth. Instead of the problem improving, it will get worse. The Super school scenario is about overall participation and not just performance of 1s teams. As it should be.

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  33. Just heard Kearsney travel to Bloem Stadium and take on Grey Bloem on 4 August…hope that satisfies some of you who have been whining that Kearsney don’t play nearly as tough as opposition as you do,despite having already played, queens, Selborne, Affies, st stithians, Paul Roos, nico Malan….

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  34. @ All Black…sure he is. He just needs to put on about 40kg’s…it’s going to be an expensive off season, groceries wise!

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  35. @All Black: When the same opinion is hammered time and time again it’s construed as whining ;)

    I’m sure if the College Reunion Day result was reversed, we wouldn’t be hearing these opinions.

    Just my humble opinion :)

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  36. @kcob: But but KCOB – they played all those teams under “festival” conditions so it don’t count ;)
    LOL .. ridiculous.

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  37. I think there is merit in it.i really do feel sorry for the college and Glenwood blokes. It’s a hectically long season and the body is sore. Lest not forget these guys are youngsters and got exams etc. I was horrified at the prospect that Kearsney are off to Bloem to play grey 4 aug, when our last match is somewhere at about 16 June…with cricket, choir, and soccer tours in between. MHS, despite what we all say, probably managed their schedule better than anyone and despite them playing less games or less tougher games, walk away feeling very stoked with their season season, and good on them!

    Cheers guys, till next year…or until All Black says my son is playing LOCK next year…:)

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  38. KCOB – what about the Independent Schools 1st XV Festival in Nelspruit? I believe Kearsney are participating there.

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  39. I saw 2 of the GC games. Loved their fighting spirit against Glenwood. They did well. I think them being bottom of the list does not tell the full story. If they work harder and introduce pre-season training with all the age groups, they will do better. I find it painful to watch their games at u14 level. – most of them only starts playing rugby in Grade 8. The boys always seem to be good athletes but lacks ball skills.

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  40. @SMEAGOL: The GC Under 15 team is an interesting one – from what I see, they have several VERY good individuals in the team after aggressive recruiting in 2010 (aggressive being relative in this case). The problem is, they play as individuals and as a result cannot compete – with all due respect something is not right there … at least 5 of their U15’s played representative rugby at U13 level which is a lot more than the Kearsney U15’s, yet they still play Kearsney B’s and lose – strange.

    I’m hoping the shift to Under 16 will see them with a coach who puts some structure into their game plan and forces them to play as a team … they could surprise us all in a couple years time.

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  41. Pedantic : no worries. I do like to bait a few people I know here so a lot is tongue in cheek.

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