Here is an important extract from the Headmasters agreement (concluded on 14 March 2012).
3. The definition of bona fide school sportsmen was unanimously confirmed as:
- 3.1 Must be a bona fide full-time student i.e. in Grade 12 (or lower) and from Grade 10, registered for at least 7 subjects for Matric
- 3.2 Must not be a Grade 12 repeat.
- 3.3 Must be in the Under 19 age-group or lower
- 3.4 If Under 19, must have been a bona fide pupil of the school since Grade 10. An exception to this would be if the family had relocated, thereby making his move to the school legitimate.
Furthermore it was agreed that the definition agreed to under point 3 would apply to all sports (including chess) from the start of 2013.
Concluded between Messers Pearson (Michaelhouse), Hall (Westville), Plug (George Campbell), Kershaw (Glenwood), van den Aardweg (Kearsney), Thompson (Hilton College), Jury (Maritzburg College), Jordan (Northwood), van Blerk (St Charles), Mitchell and Goedecke (Clifton, Durban), Magner and Norton (DHS), Mesdame Vermaak (DHS).
[…] Headmasters Agreement: http://schoolboyrugby.co.za/blog/?p=1039 […]
@beet: i suggest maybe you try get hold of the school, on our behalf and i can keen to donate to a fund for these types of people
@GreenBlooded: the man needs to be honoured , i think after so much the school needs to honour the man , and the same for all these guys that put so much into the school and support , thier good names need to be upheld, ALL of them , there is plenty space in the Ivan Clarke Pav , to pay respects to these great men
Jock o Kane was a teacher in my fathers era!!
I’m sure there will be a lot bigger things dedicated to Dennis Ellis than a bench although that would be a good start. A great Glenwood man who has done much for the school.
Good Idea Beet
I noticed on the ground near the GWD scoreboard a few small plaques on the ground bearing the name of
past teachers – they may have been moved because of the new pavilion
any of you guys come accross these – I saw the name Jock ‘o Kane on one of them ?
@Beet, totally agree! He deserves to be remembered for years to come….how much is a plaque and where do we pay?
@Greenhopper: @GreenBlooded: @Greenwood: If Mr Ellis had a special bench/seat at the ground, why not place a plaque on it in his honour.
@Greenwood: i certainly think that a minutes silence in the first game of next year should be dedicated to him, i also remember seeing him around , great old man
@Greenwood: I was at Glenwood with Mr Ellis’s son Sean (he was a year or 3 ahead of me) who was sadly killed in action during his national service. I remember we had his memorial serivce at school with full military honours. Mr Ellis was a broken man after that but kept up his unwavering support of the school. Must have been a painful thing to bear – losing a son so young.
in response to “here is something real”
Dennis Ellis passing on
I remember this ballie – he was really old 80+ – bless him
I used to sit near him at matches – one thing I noticed is that he rarely sat alone – I often used to see Mr Kershaw or Mr Jordan or other Glenwood staff sitting next to him on the same bench – not realy talking but acknowleding his presence. He always wore a supporters jacket – ..funny – at the last match after he had past on I kept on looking at the empty bench he used sit on…
if one ever believes in spirits I am willing to bet he would be hovering around at matches supporting his team … rest in peace
here is something so REAL.,
http://www.glenwoodhighschool.co.za/loyal-old-boy-and-special-friend-school-passes-away
@kcob: Eish – Squeegee. Nasty memory that brings back. Nkululeko Skweyiya was his real name and I remember clearly being called into a special assembly by Mike Maher (Glenwood headmaster) where the whole school was informed that a certain school in Pretoria (Menlo Park if I recall) would not allow blacks to use their facilities where they were hosting an inter-provincial athletics meet so Skweyiya would not be able to compete (he was a sprinter if I recall). Glenwood responded by immediately withdrawing all of our athletes as did most other KZN schools. Mid to late 80’s – critical time in our country’s history!!
@beet: Neither :-)
Ian J Vynne
Was his name Vynn or Wynne?
@Gungets Tuft: I was in Form 2, at Kearsney, College vs Kearsney was the top match of the KZN Season.
Ian Vynn ran around squeegee, it was a cracker match!!!
It was e best Keasrney side until the late 90’s I think!
There was about 20000 spectators that game.
@Gungets, 41-9 loss to Bishops was huge back then. Did they get a number of SA Schools players too or were they all post matric? It seems the 2nd match against Glenwood College either played extremely well or Glenwood had injuries. From a 5 points difference in the 1st game to 36 points in the 2nd…
@Grasshopper: 1987 was a tough year with only 6 home games out of 16. It was also right in the middle of the post-Matric era, so it is tough to know what the opposition looked like, particularly the private schools, although College had 4 players back from the 1986 team, not sure if they were “repeats” or genuine returns. 6 players in Natal schools (Catterall, Godfrey, Goedeke, Reed, Vynne, Wilson). Lost in the last minute to Grey College and thumped by Bishops. DHS took them close in Durban at 7-6, terrible match blown to death by the ref. The second Glenwood game was at Kings Park, apparently a classic.
Paarl Gym(A) 16 11
Grey College(A) 12 13
Jeppe(A) 30 21
Rondebosch(A) 12 10
Wynberg(A) 24 6
Bishops(A) 9 41
Northwood(A) 18 6
Voortrekker(A) 22 8
D.H.S 19 4
Glenwood 22 17
Hilton(A) 17 3
Michaelhouse 33 12
Kearsney(A) 20 10
Alexandra(A) 13 0
Linpark 54 6
D.H.S 7 6
Glenwood 48 12
Westville 31 15
@Gungets, wow so double the 25 Glenwood had for the same period! Shows the 80’s were pretty powerful for College and those were the days they chose 15 or 16 not the squad they do these days…I think I saw in 87 College had about 10 Natal schools reps but did lose a game to Bishops. That Bishops side must have been incredible to beat a side with 4 SA Schools reps!!!!
@Grasshopper: Guess the thread died but I have been sent the names of the College Natal Schools reps between 1979 and 1989. Not going to reprooduce them here but there were 54 in all, 79, 83 85, 86, 87, 88, 89 all producing 6 each year.
@ Gungets-ala Senor- What year were you at College?
@HORSEFLY NO.1: Boetie – “weaker” .. not weak. I wouldn’t insult kids like that!!
I say weaker because of your comments on these blogs and because I think it would be difficult to match that 2012 intake of yours. S’all.
Me, Señor, I know nutting …
@gungets
Not sure how weak our 2013. Intake will be.
Its not going to be as strong yes but hey maybe you know more thann I do, share please
@HORSEFLY NO.1: Last win that I can see for DHS was 2008 when you won 29-7 at home. Last time we played twice in a season was that year – the Goldstones game was 40-14 to College. Before that was 2004 when the scores were 19-9(h) and 15-13(a) to College. DHS wins against College are dotted all over the place – 57 of them .. :-)
2016 – will be one of those then (but surprised it will not be Glenwood to keep it within the insect species??). Your strong 2012 intake and weaker 2013 against the College inconsistent 2012 intake (they have shown what they are capable of (Glenwood 12-12, Westville 22-14, DHS falling 2 minutes short of the “Mark”), and what looks to be a strong 2013 intake. A couple of years to see how that develops.
@gungets
It should be a special day then. We actually played College. Twice. All the way to 2008 or 2009 . Our last win was in the 1st game of 2008. Something like 32-8 or so.
I know College will play us in our 150th celebrations in 2016. This years u14s will be the matrics of that year.
But with the College festival which were attending we should be ready.
@GreenBlooded: Not sure I like this subject of years out of school at all. When my year arrives at reunions we have special seating, nice soft cushions and food that does not require chewing. Can we move on now :-)
@Gungets Tuft: Yeah good movies for a different reason. I also liked Beetlejuice – Wynona Ryder was in it I think but also a good movie
@Greenblooded, eish almost a quarter of a century ;-). You must remember W Groupe, T Longden, E Maree, D Richards and P. Senekal from that year. I arrived in 92 when we had Leyton Pardey and David Terblanche in the KZN side, great memories…
@GT: Grassy beat me to the answer but obviously it would be DHS as our main local rivals.
Lot of talk about 1988 – my matric year. Hard to beleive 24 years ago. Eish.
@beet: Bull Durham. Who is going to forget Susan Sarandon in that movie. Unbearable Lightness of being. Lena Olin and Juliette Binoche in one movie. Eeisch
@Gungets, I’m 33 and born in 1979 so maybe I was….
@Beet, movies from 1921, The Kid starring Charlie Chaplin, The Hustler starring ‘Snub’ Pollard, The four horseman of the apocalypse, Ace of Hearts & Adventures of Tarzan. I’m sure none of us will remeber those, just shows the history between Glenwood and College….although there were no movies when College first played Hilton, Michaelhouse and DHS…
@Grasshopper: DHS. Hmmm. Lucky I am not a cynic …..
@Grasshopper: Hmmm, our numbers don’t quite match up. Looks like yours are a little short on Glenwood wins, might not take into account the 2 games drawn this year. Still close.
1988 .. yeah. Just remember that I might have been out of school before you were born …
I remember, Glenwood’s 100 year Old Boys day was against DHS, our closest rivals from the other side of the highway. Grasshoppers vs Horseflies another KZN classic…
@GreenBlooded: Tsk, tsk, tsk. Up until the end of 2012 (Remember that till 1990 DHS also played twice a year) –
DHS (1910) – played 186, won 116, drawn 13, lost 57
Glenwood (1921) – played 162, won 109, drawn 17, lost 36
Even if Glenwood played an extra match a year it is going to take another 18 years to catch up.
And as much as College value the Glenwood friendship, DHS has been going for 102 years. Tradition is important.
To further honour tradition there will be an Old Boys match between College and Hermannsburg to commemorate the first ever rugby match that College played in 1870. I won’t type up that story, it is a beaut – you will have to buy Jimeloyo for that one.
Cynics can pucker up .. sometimes tradition is more important than winning. No wait. Tradition is always more important than winning, to the extent that you never sacrifice your heritage for a single result. We will be celebrating 150 years of history, not a game of rugby. Do you even remember who Glenwood played on their 100th Reunion, and why you picked them in particular?
@Grasshopper: 1988, so long ago. Some of my favourite movies from that year were Die Hard, A Fish Called Wanda, Naked Gun, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, Rain Man, Midnight Run,Mississippi Burning
@Greenblooded
College vs Glenwood (since 1921)
Played: 161
Maritzburg College won 109
Drawn: 18
Glenwood won 34
@Gungets, gosh 1988 was like yesterday. Not even 25 years yet.
@Grassy: DHS may have played against College for more calendar years but I’m sure Glenwood have probably played more matches since they have played twice a year since day dot. Do you have the facts on this?
Some cynics will no doubt say that College need to select their opposition carefully for this big occassion given recent “Reunion Day” history. ;)
@Gungets Tuft: Just to add to that, even the 1987 fixture was a special arrangement and only the 1st Fifteen played. Being that big 1987 year, the SA Schools team played that day and College were missing Catterall, Goedeke, Reed and Wilson. Westville were missing 2 players also in the SA Schools side – I think Errol Stewart and another. Records show 8 Natal boys in that SA Schools side, 4 College, 2 Westville and one each from Voortrekker and Estcourt. Only in 1988 was a full round of fixtures played for the first time.
Above info from the esteemed Mr Tony Wiblin of Jimeloyo Ji fame. Between he and Madevu, encyclopaedic knowledge of my school :-)
Westville – first official match in 1987. I know there will be a response to this, but I am ready. The count down begins … 10 … 9 … 8 … 7 …
DHS will be ready. I hope they bring loads of spectators, it is going to be an epic day, hell an epic year, with all the plans. Looking forward to it a great deal, really happy that my son and I will be part of it.
@Gungets, it would only be right for it to be DHS, the oldest Durban school vs the oldest school in the province. Glenwood is a relative newby having played College since 1921, still decent at 91 years. Do you know when College started playing Westville, 70’s or 80’s? Yep, Old Boys on creme soda can start a lot of kak. It would sour the DHS and College relationship if that happened. Respect traditions and play DHS. Glenwood already have 2 fixtures against College a year, the only school in KZN to do so….hopefully DHS can be competitive next year…
@Grasshopper: The opposition for the 150th has been announced as DHS. They are our oldest continuous rivals and the links go even deeper considering Skonk came from DHP, the early Collehe headmaster A.S. Langley who was instrumental in banning soccer and establishing rugby at College went to DHS in 1909 (and promtly killed soccer there too). The schools play for the Skonk Nicholson trophy (a 100 year old trophy donated to the rivalry after Skonks death last year).
I have however heard rumours since them, repeated at the South Coast Old Boys dinner I believe, that it might actually be Glenwood (remember the Old Boys functions are often over catered with Fanta, so ….). But I think there are some date problems – a festival of some sort that Glenwood are committed to Saturday 25th May?
@Star, you maybe correct. Barker played for so many years at DHS I lose count. He may have played in 78 when La Marque made Natal in 5th form. Yes, I’m sure Derek La Marque was probably only 100kg and 6foot3 but he was big for that era…
@ Grassy- Mike Barker was not in the 1979 team.De Honri’s place was taken by a MHS postmatric which was a bit unfair(so I do apologise for my brother)I have a picture of the team and there were some monsters. Cliff Hopkins was from Kearsney I think and was an absolute brute. I would like to get their stats (weight,height etc) and compare it to the current KZN team. I reckon it would not be a contest.Hugh R/E was the captain although I think Derek captained SA schools.
@Gungets, thanks for that, great to see the friendly rivalry between 2 great KZN schools has not changed much since then. Goldstones is a sacred place and a hard place to win even if you are the favourites. I would love a copy of the book, will definitely buy one when back home. Hopefully Glenwood have done one for their 100 year anniversary a couple of years ago. Do you know who you playing on your Old Boys/Founders Day in 2013 for the 150th?
It’s later. The following from the excellent book on College rugby by Skonk Nicholson and Tony Wiblin called “Jimeloyo Ji”, a must have for anyone who enjoys schoolboy rugby in KZN. It is on sale at College in the College Shoppe as well as at all home games on Goldstones. Buy one, it’s the right thing to do.
————————————————
After a sever defeat at the hands of the powerful and experienced Glenwood team in the second match of the season, some pundits were openly talking about a string of defeats in the matches which lay ahead. Under the inspiring leadership of Jamieson and his deputy, Kempe, the players set about redeeming themselves, and how well they did it.
Supporters and players alike looked forward to the return Glenwood match on Goldstone’s at the end of July In a very fast and tense game, played before a large crowd, College turned the tables on Glenwood. There was little between the two sides and at half-time the score was 3-3. In the second half the College pack began to get slightly the better of the exchanges, but the Glenwood forwards were never subdued. Glenwood was forced to touch down in it’s in-goal area and, from the 22m drop out, P.M. Phillips, the College tight-head prop, drove forward with great purpose. As he was tackled he got the ball away to eighth-man J.P. Barnes, who in turn fed C.S. Mingay on the right wing. Lock forward I.I.W. Tyrer was up in support to take Mingay’s inside pass and he drove for the line with everything he had. This great try gave College a winning 7-3 lead. Rugby was the ultimate winner in this game. Over the years there have been many splendid games between College and Glenwood and this was certainly no exception. Glenwood had an exceptional side and it was highly praised for the spirit in which it played this game and the manner in which it accepted it’s defeat.
I will , later, reproduce the story from Jimiloyo Ji on the 1979 return game against Glenwood – it it well worth repeating. The College guys form that team that made Natal were Janieson, Kempe, Mitchell (who died last year of cancer), Barnes, Elkington and Phillips. Adrian Mitchell was very unlucky not to make SA Schools and later played at Fullback for Natal.
@beet: He was an uncompromising oke for sure, but I liked him. Happy to tell people to go home, they were not sick just lazy. I didn’t really want the anaesthetic either. 10 holes rather than about 8 jabs with the muti needle anyway. Saved 10 minutes for two extra painful jabs. Did quite a kak job though – still have the scar 28 years later. We were both big rugby fans… used to huddle under the little pavillion at Woodburn watching Natal try to get out of the B Section.
@Star, he was a loose forward. Probably did not make Natal Schools due to Mike Barker. The Glenwood loose trio was La Marque, de Honri and Hardie. Absolutely brilliant and well balanced is the words my dad used. I was only born that year so unfortunately never got the see them play.
@Gungets, Graham ‘Basher’ Downes was a DHS old boy who I believe played for the USA.
@Gungets Tuft: Hectic stuff. Your doctor sounded like a real hard ass. I can’t imagine you were his favourite patient after that incident. :grin:
@ Grassy- What position did De Honri play?
@beet: And that final was also burned into my brain. 5 minutes before kick off I was carving up some biltong with kick-ass big knife and nearly cut my finger off. I was willing to sit it out till after the game, my old man forced me to go to hospital. My GP, pissed that he had been called out, told me straight that he did not have the time for an anaesthetic, stitched me up (10 stiches if I remember) and ran out. I got home having missed the first 2 tries (Natal), just to see bloody Calla Scholtz twist over for the try for the lead that Natal never got back. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
The 1984 Currie Cup semi-final Natal vs Free State was one of my favour games of all times. Natal were still in the B-Section but won 26-11 against Vrystaat who I think finished 2nd behind WP in the CC A-section. The strange rules resulted in the A-Section runnersup team playing the B-Section winners instead of the 3rd placed A-Section team.
In fact, I see Glenwood (La Marque, Allen), Northwood (Reece), DHS (Hamilton??) and College (Jamieson, Stransky .. {koff} Dawson) in there. Probably more, those are the ones I know off the top of my head. Teich for Hilton later (with Fyvie). House had to wait a little longer :-)
@Grasshopper: College will claim Murray Dawson as well I think. Pretty sure he had most of his school career at College before being dispatched to Howick to finish off, he was Head Boy at Howick, unless I am going mad (don’t count out that possibility!!)
Natal 1984 side; Natal: Hugh Reece-Edwards, Des McLean, Ronnie Haarhof, Greg Hamilton, Kobus Aucamp, Gawie Visagie, Craig Jamieson, Wyanand Claassen (captain), Derek la Marque, Peter Edmunds, André Botha, Chris Faure, Murray Dawson, Rob Hankinson, Graham Downes.
1984 Currie Cup Final; http://keo.co.za/2010/10/28/unforgettable-finals/
When Natal and Western Province first met in a Currie Cup final it was 1984, the year that two tropical cyclones, Demoina and then Imboa, followed me home from a family holiday in Mauritius to flood Zululand.
Back then no one would ever have imagined that the singer George Michael would one day spend time in jail, for he was the lead singer of Wham back then, and they were immensely popular. So for obvious reasons was George Orwell’s prophetic book, 1984, which we matric pupils at Northlands Boys High (now Northwood College), had to dissect and mull over as a set-work.
Considering the dire theme of the book, it was fitting that for those of us fanatics who called ourselves the Kings Park faithful, it was another of those bleak winters which our team spent in the doldrums of the B Section of the Currie Cup.
To be fair, they played well enough that year to extricate themselves from rugby’s equivalent of purgatory – only it just so happened that the promotion-relegation game was in Welkom, their hoodoo ground, against their hoodoo team, Northern Free State, better known to Durbanites as the Purple People Eaters (a nickname given them by former Natal captain Dick Cocks in his popular Natal Mercury column, Cocks and Bull).
But if Natal in the B Section era had problems when asked to play against teams made up of miners and farmers, they tended to go much better against teams made up of students, lawyers, doctors and, OK, the occasional maize farmer.
And so it was that in the semi-final the week after the failed promotion attempt, Natal entertained Free State in the semi-final – in those days A Section and B Section teams played off – and they won 26-15.
Natal were helped that day by a positional switch for Gawie Visagie, who moved to flyhalf to make place at scrumhalf for a young law student whose official name was Craig Jamieson but who we knew as the Cabbage Patch Kid because of the unruly mop of hair that made him look like he might live with his surfboard in an old panel-van somewhere on the south coast and perhaps also be a Wham groupie.
WP had the stars, but Natal had a giant waterpolo star on the flank, Derek LaMarque, who was the forerunner of Wahl Bartmann and Jean Deysel as a ball carrying loose forward. Visagie always played better when out of position, and flyhalf suited his gift for putting over drop goals, which accounted for Natal’s first-half lead in the Newlands final.
As last man in a cricket match in Westville it was with great reluctance that I left the radio commentary behind in the pavilion, with Natal leading 6-3. There was no chance of us winning and playing for a draw would require over an hour of stoic straight batted resistance that was beyond my mediocre batting talents, besides which it would mean missing the rest of the final. So I lofted the first ball to mid-off, only for the catch to be dropped – and has any batsman ever banged the pitch so hard in frustration at being given a life?
By the time the cricket was ended, the final was into the second half, and WP, with Rob Louw playing a blinder, had taken control. They eventually won 19-9, but if ever there was honour in defeat, it came for Natal that day in what was to be Wynand Claassen’s last game as captain.
And so on 11 years to 1995, the season after my move to Cape Town after three years covering Natal rugby for the Natal Mercury. The Natal players found it quite amusing that I was now, in their minds anyway, in the Province camp, and before the final at Kings Park, Gary Teichmann chided me: ‘Remember, you are either for us or against us, you can’t be in between’.
WP arrived in Durban with a behemoth pack anchored by Garry Pagel and the late Tommy Laubscher. Forwards normally come into their own in wet conditions, so when it rained the night before, it seemed good enough reason to predict a WP victory.
But what have rugby writers ever known? The slippery field actually ended up suiting Natal, who had a hooker in John Allan who was a wily old veteran. Allan has always talked a good game, but he also used to play the odd good one too, and that day he was the heart of a Natal front row that outwitted their stronger opponents. World Cup-winning flyhalf Joel Stransky, then playing for WP, did not help matters for the Cape team by going walkabout behind a well beaten pack as the Sharks won 25-17.
The next two Currie Cup finals between the coastal provinces were the back to back 2000 and 2001 clashes. The first was in Durban, and there is a fresh recollection of a prominent Sharks official thanking me as a representative of the Cape media for helping drive interest for the game. That after Sharks coach Rudolf Straeuli had locked the Durban media out of his training sessions and had refused to speak to anyone from the Fourth Estate for two weeks.
The Sharks started as favourites, and dominated the forward battle, but WP scored three breakaway tries within the first half hour to effectively win the match, which WP took 25-15 before heading off to the old Bourbon Street night club to celebrate into the early hours of the morning.
The following season saw the final in Cape Town, and in some ways it was the reverse of this year in that WP had to play the Sharks in the last league match in Durban having already secured to spot on the log table.
With nothing to play for, WP were beaten easily, in much the same manner as the Sharks, who were this year’s Percy Frames trophy winners (for the team that wins the league stage), were outplayed at Newlands a few weeks ago.
In the 2001 decider WP reversed the result of the final league game, and were more comprehensive victors than the final scoreline might have suggested. Is that perhaps a good omen for the Sharks ahead of the fifth instalment of the coastal final saga set to be staged in Durban next Saturday?
The people of KwaZulu-Natal will be hoping so, for the same Sharks official who had thanked me 12 months earlier informed me on the eve of that 2001 final that ‘the Sharks have to win for the people of Durban, the city really doesn’t have much else going for it anymore’. Regardless of what happens on Saturday, at least Capetonians will still have their mountain …
@Grasshopper: Ja, I don’t have the Natal Schools reps with me, only SA Schools. Stellar time for College, assume that all these guys would have made Natal, along with quite a few others who represental Natal. All Black would know more about that era.
1979 CM Jamieson
1984 JT Stransky
1985 SR Glover
1986 JRD Thomson
1987 BW Catterall (c), UH Goedeke, DAG Reed, WG Wilson
1989 CD Mayer
College’s SA Schools players;
1974 MK Thompson
BV White
1976 PJ Lindsay
1977 PJ Lindsay
1978 DJ Mills
1979 CM Jamieson
1984 JT Stransky
1985 SR Glover
1986 JRD Thomson
1987 BW Catterall*
UH Goedeke
DAG Reed
WG Wilson
1989 CD Mayer
1994 WGA Munn
1995 PJ Dixon*
1996 RC Kelly*
1997 RF Linde
2002 PJ Grant
EA Penzhorn
B Squires
2012 J Kriel
* Captain
@Gungets, yep Derek La Marque was SA Schools Captain in 1979 for rugby and waterpolo. He even played SA mens waterpolo that year…a legend at Glenwood. He, Hardie and Mike Barker at DHS must have made a fearsome loose trio for Natal….Mike Barker is legendary and DHS, played something like 30 games for DHS, but I think he failed a few years too…
@Gungets, hahaha I knew you would have a good rebuttle (spelling?). Yes, Glenwood had a decent mid to late 80’s. Early 80’s was dire do to rebuilding after La Marque. 1984 was pretty good with 3 great players in BG ‘Big Red’ Smith (the biggest player to have played for Glenwood at the time 108kg and 6foot4), Swanepoel (Natal Schools Cpt) and Baronet (SA Schools centre). Here are Glenwood’s Natal reps between 1979 and 1989;
1979 D.R. La Marque(SA)
1979 A.B. Hardie
1979 MR. Armitage
1979 C.R.Tyack
1980 CL. Kretzschmar
1980 C.F. Haden
1981 C.E. Muller
1983 D.B. Baronet
1984 F.H. Swanepoel(c)
1984 D.B. Baronet
1984 B.C. Smith
1985 D.B. Baronet(SA)
1985 B.C. Smith
1986 T.L. Labuschange
1987 T.L. Labuschange
1987 B.W. Aigner
1987 W.M. Williams
1988 W.P. Groupe
1988 T.I. Longden
1988 E.F. Maree
1988 D.J. Richards
1988 P. Senekal (vc)
1989 D.J. Richards
1989 P. Senekal
1989 B.M. Holmes
And results between College and Glenwood;
1979: Glenwood won 33-6; College won 7-3
1980: College won 21-12; Glenwood won 10-9
1981: College won 9-7 and 19-10
1982: College won 15-6 and 19-18
1983: Glenwood won 15-7; College won 26-6
1984: College won 20-4 and 13-6
1985 : College won 25-3 and 22-6
1986: College won 29-3; Glenwood won 15-13
1987: College won 22-17 and 48-12
1988: College won 13-7 and 30-9
1989: College won 19-3 and 22-3
1990: College won 28-6 and 6-0
1991: College won 22-16; Glenwood won 16-11
@Grasshopper: Also contributed Craig Jamieson To SA Schools that year. Don’t know what the whole SA Schools squad looked like but Glenwood must have had La Marque at least in that squad. Can’t find the KZN Schools team for that year, not sure if only Craig made it into the team as well – and don’t have my school bible with me.
@Grasshopper: You knew I was going to reply to this 1979 posting :-)
The return game that year, College won 7-3. That loss to Glenwood was the only loss for College that year, with a single draw … to Northwood!!
Beat DHS twice (34 – 15 and 25 – 10) and handsome victories against the other biggies (House 27-12, Hilton 32 – 3, Kearsney only 7 – 3). Started a golden era for College where we lost 9 matches in 10 years (81 – 90). 3 losses in KZN in 10 years (Glenwood twice, DHS once).
That Glenwood team must have been strong during the same time. Only Grey College beat us twice, with Queens, Bishops and Paarl Gym.
@Hopper: You hit the nail on the head when you speak of Toppy teaching you about life. There was always a life lesson to be learnt from whatever he did – be it teaching English of coaching rugger. His English classes were chaotic – we would often not even take our books out for the entire lesson and we would have a long discussion about politics, sex, religion or any other newsworthy item. He managed to squeeze the sylabus in somehow and we came out of it much better humans.
@Beet again, I think Toppy’s last year was 1991. His greatest side was the 1979 side with Derek La Marque as his captain (SA Schools rugby and waterpolo captain). 4x boys made Natal Schools, Hardie, Armitage, Tyack and La Marque. De Honri was very unlucky not to make the side. The team that year played 12, won 10 and lost 2, beating College 33-6, DHS 32-4, Westville 44-9 and Hilton 53-12. They were undoubtly the best side in KZN that year and probably had the best loose forward trio to ever grace a schoolboy rugby field. Looking at those scores, the wins were massive considering a try was only 4 points back then….
@Beet, well Toppy has had a few stints as 1st team rugby coach. I remember him taking the team in the early 90’s before they handed the job to Gerry Goedeke who is now at Clifton. Goedeke was not that great to be honest, too nice! Here is an extract from the Glenwood rugby magazine in 1990;
‘Toppy’ Hortop has coached the 1st team throughout the seventies and eighties. ‘Toppy’ played his rugby at flyhalf, first at Marist Brothers and then for many years at Natal University, Durban. Since his arrival at Glenwood, ‘Toppy’ has been known for his total dedication to his rugby team and his great ability to motivate. His often-heard cry of ‘green-machine’ has become a catchword in the school and it is no wonder that his influence has seen our 1st IX become one of the strongest in the province”
Toppy coached me at Glenwood and at Varsity and can say he is definitely the best rugga coach I ever had. He taught me alot about life and sport, a great Glenwood man!
@Greenwood, if you work it out mathematically then 20,000 is probably about right. If you think that these days Glenwood has about 220 matrics and in the past alot fewer, it’s probably an average of about 200 per year over 102 years, that is 20,400 which is close enough :-)
@GreenBlooded:
True! I’m still trying to figure out how to change this mrgreen smile -> 
into a :mrmaroon:
Good for Toppy. I was hoping they’d mention more about his rugby achievements but its sometimes forgotten that school rugby coaching legends like Toppy are often wonder teachers for ¾ of the normal school day.
Does anyone know when Toppy started and finished coaching the 1st team at GM?
@Greenwood: Rob Hutchison. Been there forever. He is an Afrikaans teacher and also coached the 2nd XV in the 80’s when Toppy was the 1st team coach. He is completely deaf and wears hearing aids which we, as boys, used to cause havoc with by scraping our chairs on the ground. He always wore one in his right ear then came into class one morning with one in each ear and announced “Hutchi is now in stereo”. A real Glenwood character.
Greenblooded – who was Hutchi ? was he by any chance a Science teacher at Glenwood
Great article in Mercury especially about 20,000th boy to register at the school since inception – my son told me some time ago he is number 19207 didnt quite understand what he was saying – So this means in 102 years only 20 thousand boys have passed thru Glenwood – doesn’t sound much over this time period
@Grasshopper: Beet is a Kearsney supporter – he would have no interest in such charity ;)
Email me greenblooded88@gmail.com and I’ll send it back.
@Greenblooded, thanks boet. No chance of scanning it and sending to me? Maybe Beet could scan it and put on his twitter profile? Can’t believe Hutchi got no mention….
@Grasshopper: Full page article in the Mercury this morning about Glenwood and the ‘white beard’ teachers. Toppy featured mainly and mentioned Kevin Jordan but most remiss that no mention made of Hutchi. Toppy has some interesting views as always – ask your dad to keep it for you.
@Gungets, hahahah that made me laugh! I too pulled a fat just lifting my arm. Battling with this slowing metabolism thing in my 30’s! For me Matt was the best sportsman Northwood has produced and greats like Shaun Pollock, Hugh Reece-Edwards and Robin Smith came from there……I know it’s a huge statement, but as an athlete he takes tops..
@Grasshopper: You talk about Matt Bowman. !#$@% he is a machine. He swept everything before him at this years SA Masters Lifesaving Champs. If it was in the water he won it, swimming, Mali, ski, Taplin. Not so much on the beach. Then the next day he did that same for the Senior SA Champs till he left to go to the SA Waterpolo champs. Also pulled a Top 10 at Molokai – beaten by Oscar Chalupski who won it for about the 11th time at the age of 49!!
Shake my head at okes like them – I tore a fat cleaning my teeth this morning …
@ AB- Just levelling the field my friend as you know who I am and attacked me re the support I gave to a certain no 8.Was I wrong in that assumption and if so I will certainly apologise?
@All, great cricket article; http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/578932.html
Made me think, what could we have achieved back then? White wash everyone…
@All Black, good stuff there. Westville remind me of the UK in the Olympics, getting all excited about their achievements and blowing wind up their own asses. I live in London and it was ‘we are the greatest, the best, invincible etc’, then the next day an article in newspapers and online detailed the cost for this achievement, in the region of £4million per medal! Basically the UK bought their success and it seems all sport is unfortunately heading that way. Look at Man City and Chelsea, bought success. It seems Westville, Hilton, Michaelhouse are taking the same route with the other schools doing so to a lesser extent. It’s really sad that schools have had to get this way and become commercial/professional….
@star: You just made it personal bud. See you soon.
@ AB- Tell me AB or is it KS exactly how did College dismantle Westville.I seem to remember that it went down to the wire. PLEASE enlighten the blog with your wisdom.Just tell us who was the last man standing in the College team.Just remember it is not always from a College perspective.Talk about blind. Joke
I have also read your not so positive comments about the KZN CW team. I am sorry that Reegan did not make it as I thought he should have and went on record in that regard. But don’t take it out on the team. The MHS 8 had a very good tournament.Just say well done.
@ All – this is not about Westville- It is about acknowledgement and being the bigger person.
Last year I said that GW deserved the rugby title because they were the best team especially away from home. This year MHS( the mortal enemy of Hilton and Westville) did what they had to and I said as much. Westville swimming went where no other SA school has gone before and in the same year one of their own beats the all time great for gold and the school makes Olympic history with the number of reps. The response-delusions of grandeur and it is simple or take a chill pill.Gungets says I must look inwards. Maybe I am not the only one.
@ Grassy- Schlemmer also plays rugby at flyhalf(2nd team this year). He has a great boot ,vision and distribution.He is on the radar for Westville next year.
Thank you to my friend who read this blog and quietly sent me the following information:
2011 Cricket: College won night league and 20/20. Reached semi finals of national 20/20.
2010 cricket: won night league and 20/20 and reached finals of national 20/20. Lost by 1 run to Menlo Park who destroyed KES in playoff.
Have article ‘rating’ College no 1 in both years.
2012- College and Hilton share night league (washed out) Westville beat College in 20/20 by 7 runs and represent KZN at national 20/20. Came last after not winning a game. College beat Westville in 50 over fixture by 3 wkts.
Your comment to Gungets that College are losing their reputation (or along those lines) is strange. Add the recent soccer results, hockey results, rugby results, canoeing results and oh, the fact that College came 2nd in academics in 2011 as well. They were beaten by Westville Girls only, but I am sure that you will claim that one as well. Well done on your swimming, we concede that. Be proud.
Sorry chaps. Just had to add this to the comments. Feel a little childish but geez.
Westville this Westville that, my word, cant ruin my day reading that garbage. Time to move on.
@star: Star, as I have said before you have skin 3 inches thick. I will stick to what I believe as I also watched College dismantle Westville in 50 over game. Talk about blinded. Talk about delusions of grandeur.
@grassy
Fair enough. And. Also consider the fact that when he was in grade 7 DHS were the no1 swimming school in SA.
@Gungets, thanks mate. Shows they are both playing provincial cricket and probably trying to make a name for themselves.
@Horsie, not sure why he chose DHS. Maybe the demographic at DHS was of his liking. There are quite a boer seuns at Glenwood these days. Let’s just say DHS will always attract Asian kids due to the local area. Re swimming, I’m sure Westville give out plenty. 70 a year seems rather excessive, but a few of my mates are the Old Boys contributing all this money so they have the bragging rights. I’m sure Chad Le Clos was given a hefty bursary to go there from Penzance…..
@grassy
There’s also Vandiar and the other Amla at Dolphins from DHS.
Interestingly, Bissoons bbrother chose DHS instead.
Also a very good cricketer.
RE swimming
Westville are very aggressivve in offering bursaries for this.don’t let them fool you with their ‘we just attract them’ story. Know many boys who’ve been offered there what no other school can!
@Grasshopper: Maybe I do.
http://schoolofcricket.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/muller-help-nashua-mobile-cape-cobras-end-week-at-the-top/
@Grasshopper: Sumanth Sunkari and Sahil Bissoon – Frayed knot.
@Gungets, do you have any idea what happened to Sumanth Sunkari and Sahil Bissoon, Glenwood’s other recent SA Schools cricket players?
Linda Zondi – http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/48114.html
He is now Township Development Manager, for KZN Cricket Union
Bongani Zibane – now the Gauteng Under12 coach
@Gungets, ah ok so he won the Dolphins Junior Player of the year. Hopefully he continues to progress. I remember Glenwood had Bongani Zibane and Linda Zondi in the 90’s who won similar awards but never made it at senior level. They were 2 of the countries best black cricketer hopes….
@Gungets, I too was a swimmer in my youth. I made D&D and Natal B Primary Schools in 1991. I was accepted at Glenwood for 4 reasons, Dux of Primary school, D&D cricket, D&D/Natal B swimming and my uncle being a great Old Boy. I was just short of a sports bursary. I am all to aware of what it takes in swimming because I was driven to hating the sport through 5 x 5km sessions a week. I hated the smell of chlorine and just everything to do with swimming by 3rd form. My point was you only need 10 to 20 great swimmers in the whole school and you have a winning team. In my day we had one SA level guy in my age group, Rudi Urbach! He won every freestyle event. Others were Simon Murran, Gary Sadler, Owen Sheftz and Paul Brady. Great swimmers achieve things not just from swimming at school but at club level and lifesaving. Westville is also lucky to have a great swimming club with 50m pool in the suburb. If Horsie is right, every SA Schools swimmer at Westville is probably on a bursary…
@Grasshopper: Cricket. Google Luke Schlemmer for some info.
@Grasshopper: Going to disagree with the “simple” side of things. I was a swimmer .. till a million hours of having my face in the water got to me. You have to have the characters as well. As good as Graham is, I think the swimmers have made him as much as he has made the swimmer. There is am element of truth in what you say, but it’s certainly not that simple. For Westville to win every race they need 2 top kids in every age group and 2 above average. Not easy to achieve, but in Durban not that hard either. Scholarships, once again (no, nothing wrong with that .. {sigh}) attract swimmers because I am not sure how many scholarships are offered to pure swimmers. Don’t put polo players and surf-lifesavers in there, Mr Hill prohibits those sports for his top charges.
@Grasshopper: You could say the same thing with me regarding Stuart. I have known his mother since 1979. Saw her in October at her wedding in South Africa. I was the MC :-)
@Star, easy to do when you have the whole SA schools swimming team. Grey College kind of have that monopoly in rugby. Again, if Graham Hill worked at another school then they would have the best swimming team. These days it’s about the coaches you get because they attract the sportsman…simple.
@ beet- yes Northwood had their time. I think it was when Paul Blackbeard was in his prime(or am I showing my age)
@ grassy- Grey are the 2nd ranked school after Westville but still a way to go.In the last interschools out of 26 races Westville won 22, Grey 3 and Hilton 1.In certain galas that are almost 50 years old no school had ever won every race.Westville did this not once but twice this year and I read a quote that this was possibly the best team the country had ever known.The problem now is where to from here.
@Gungets, Schlemmer in rugby, swimming or cricket?
Funny, Stuart Meaker is a family friend, small world.
@Beet, hmmm I only remember Northwood in the 90’s and they had the best swimmer in the province then, the mighty Matt Bowman! He was just amazing in the pool both swimmming and waterpolo. I don’t think anybody could beat him in a swim off. He decided to conitinue with surf ski which he did pretty well in. That said, Northwood have always had a good surfing team which normally equates to a relatively good swimming team…..I can’t comment for the 70’s and 80’s or more recently…
@Star, maybe Westville are top so far this year, but not 2011 and 2010. Also, 2012 is not over and there is a full 4th term cricket still to play. We all know with cricket if you win the toss on a wet pitch you have a huge advantage.
@Grasshopper: And watch out for Westville’s Luke Schlemmer, and his little boet coming up.
Where did Stuart Meaker go to school (probably primary school only as he left in 2001) – born in Pmb, so probably Merchiston or Cordwallis.
@ All Black- you mention GW. I actually watched that game as my son was busy playing on the small field at the back and Westville dominated from the first ball to when rain intervened and GW who were currently going at 3 runs an over had to score over 100 runs in the last 10 overs.Westville beat DHS comfortably who in turn beat GW and so on.If you add the 20/20 championship then with all due respect I will stick to the WP scribe who put Westville at 1.(for now ) I will say though that I was impressed with the GW captain who called the top Westville batsman back over a disputed catch and the GW boarders who watched in full uniform and created a bit of a vibe which is usually lacking in those games.
@Grasshopper: Wasn’t there a time when Northlands dominated swimming. When I was at school I was pretty sure Northlands were the top guns in the pool.
@Horsie, that would be an interesting debate because College will have a claim. My dad was in second form when Barry Richards was in matric. Since then, I can only think of Richard Snell, Lance Klusener and Amla. There will be others. Glenwood have produced a handful too;
1935 – R.J Williams
1948 – L.A Larkham
1949-1957 – J.C Watkins – SA’s first real allrounder
1989 – Trevor Madsen
1994-1995 – Steven Jack
Jade Dernbach for England was at Glenwood for a while and I believe Prenelan Subrayen will be Glenwood’s next Protea in the next few years. Cody Chetty and Mthokozisi Shezi are our current Dolphins. DHS have Imraan Khan and Hashim Amla as their current Dolphins. Westville have the most currently in Cameron Delport, Khaya Zondo & Rob Frylinck. College have Dave Miller and Northwood have Darren Smit and Keshav Maharaj….
@gungets tuft
We have had about 38 or so reps which is more than any other school. Lance ‘Zulu’ Klusener is another.
We also prooduce SA U19 players almost every year. Last year we had one in the colts side.
We were once(till 2007) the best swimming school in SA.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: NW-Knight is going to have a go at you. They had some good players. College have produced few Boks / Proteas – 14 in all. We have another international represenative, name escapes me, let me send a text and see what happens … {snigger}.
@grasshopper
Nay! The best cricket school historically is DHS. Most Proteas and has been dominant for a long time.
Current protea is Amla with Vandiar being one of our 3 or. 4. Dolphins players.
@Gungets, true! DHS were the usual swimming powerhouse, followed by Glenwood and Northwood. Westville have only featured in the past decade due to Graham Hill being the SA coach and atracting all the SA swimmers there. Take Chad Le Clos as an example, he went to Penzance Primary in Glenwood so most of his primary school friends went to Glenwood, but he somehow ended up at Westville. I do know his family moved to Pinetown, so Westville was probably the closest good school to them, except maybe Kearsney up the hill. However, all the schools are upping their aquatics game and bringing in swimming experts to run swimming and waterpolo programmes. Westville will be the strongest for another 5 years but others will catch up. I believe Grey Bloem are looking to knock Westville off their perch…
I was thinking for Chess they should really insist that the Headmaster’s agreement apply in reverse for that sports/extra mural code to feel any kind of heat at all:
*Must NOT have bona fide students
*Must have repeated Gr.12
*Must by u19 or older
If not u19 or older, must have joined school after Gr.10
@Grasshopper: Except for swimming. College will concede there. I cannot remember a time when College matched the Durban schools.
@Star, that is a huge claim that. Yes, Westville won the baseball final (aka 20/20 which we all know is not real cricket) but when it comes to the real game there are a few contenders at 1st team level. DHS, Glenwood, Kearsney, Westville and College are the top 5, but like the rugby, anyone can win on a particular day. Glenwood have done the double (winning cricket and rugby) of College twice in the past few years. I know Westville have beaten College too, but unfortunately the big Westville vs Glenwood game was rained out towards the end of 2011. Glenwood were probably the best side in 2011 and this year not as good. Looking at the SA Under19 side, Glenwood had Prenelan Subrayen and College had Savage. Kearsney had the captain, his name escapes me. Overall and historically College is the best cricket school in KZN. History is something that is earned and not bought. Westville will need to win continuously for the next 3 decades to be considered anywhere near College in cricket, rugby, hockey and pretty much any sport. However, Westville are doing extremely well considering their young age and can be commended for a great sports programme….
@star
Sjoe! Take a chill pill.there’s no better school than other here.they are all different . Also, its easy to be great when you offer 70 schoolarships per grade. Juss saying
@star: You read too many newspapers. Glenwood and Hilton have got good sides but everybody seems to have had their off day. on a turning track Westville has the spinners and on a pacey wicket College would have the edge. 4th term will separate the teams. Right now I would say Glenwood based on what I have seen rather than results.
@ All black- Not too much salt. It is not good for you. I said rated no 1 and that was by an independent writer on another cricket website. I did not mention rankings (official) or otherwise.Who then do you consider in your esteemed opinion the number 1 rated side in KZN. I thought you had got fed up with all the sand in your eyes.
@Greenwood: Nice comment on College Greenwood.
A comment on Colleges’ Honours Board
during one of the breaks in the Protea’ test match at the Oval there was an insert on Kevin Pieterson and his time at College – very interesting 10 minute clip by the BBC
they showed the school and the honours board – here lies the history and heritage of College that no other Kzn school can match
As a Glenwood Old boy I have spent many minutes myself admiring many achievements by College past scholars listed on the Honours Board – to be honest with with a twinge of envy
The Glenwood SA Representives honours board whilst impressive clearly shows the age diffence between these 2 schools
There is no ranking for cricket. This is the ‘official’ opinion of Star. In the 50 over format College beat Westville at Westville. Day night league was drawn due to the final being washed out. Westville won the 20/20 competition beating College in the final. Not saying College is the best but there is no ranking. Starting to take Star’s comments with a pinch of salt.
@Greenblooded. Nope, I won’t go back to that rubbish. The biggest concern was identity fraud, draconian censorship and a now rubbish blogging system where blogs get lost in a long chain and you can’t see who responds to your posts etc. There is no chronological order. Also, the type of bloggers there are just there to cause trouble and not to actually discuss proper points in an adult manner. Another bug bear of mine, and I have nothing against Afrikaans bloggers, but if it’s an English site please blog in English. My Afrikaans is not bad but I don’t know all the slang etc used. Beet has done a great job here and now just needs to start monetising the site with Ads and maybe charging a small annual subscription fee to be a Subscriber. Ads maybe more lucrative and something I can help out with…
@Grasshopper: Do you still actually blog on 365? Haven’t looked at the site in months. Beet has done a stellar job here and there is no need to look elsewhere. This thread would have possibly got to 15 postings before being trashed. At least lively debate is allowed here.
To add, KES supporters even challenged College to the number of internationals produced by College. College are comfortably on a par with KES if not better, especially considering half of KES’s international reps are in ‘sports’ like jukskei, pigeon shooting, bowls and tiddly winks.
@Star, of course I am keen to watch Westville klap KES, it would be sweet for me as you will know from 365 I detest the continuous ‘blowing wind up ones own ass’ tactics that KES and their supporters have. They seem to think KES is the only school with traditions and are the best at everything. Comments like KES have whipped all of KZN etc. Obviously for me, a KES vs Glenwood fixture would be great, but it seems either the headmasters don’t speak or they have not thought of this fixture yet. Maybe KES are scared, who knows. Therefore, Westville and College vs KES are the next best, so watch either beat KES at home next year would be great. Go Westville and go Red, Black and White against the Reds in 2013!
@ Grassy. I am sure that Westville were not happy but as I explained earlier Cameron went back to Grade 10 and was 18 at the time. Slightly different. Westville has subsequently told Hilton that they would not play them when an older boy appeared on their radar screen.
Does this now mean that we cannot meet up to watch Westville end KES’s reign of terror in KZN? Even AB has now left the sandbox so maybe it is time to turn off the lights on this subject
@star: Didn’t know there was a ranking for cricket – I like it as much as I like the ranking for rugby, but that is an aside. If you know your College history (no reason why you should) you will know there have been good and bad sporting periods, all 100% acknowledged. That this year was not a particularly good cricket year is also quite well known and it happens very often when you have had a stellar period. 2010/2011 was very good for College cricket and hockey, this year less so, but it is not over yet and the boys still have time to resurrect their season. If they don’t, then such is life. It is not through lack of trying. I certainly did not see or hear any uproar about being beaten by Westville, and if you drop me an email to gungetstuft@gmail.com I will forward you the match report that went out to College subscribers. I am sure you will find it quite magnanimous, I think we do that quite well. There is ZERO fear that we are losing “our reputation” after a loss, or 10. Form (or the lack of it) is temporary, class is permanent, College will be just fine.
As for “You keep referring to College’s reputation as the source of all things good” .. seriously? – I have been complimentary to every school in Durban. Not once, and you should quote me if you intend to challenge me on this, have I said that College is better than any other school, just that there are many good reasons why I support them above other schools.
I apologise if you felt I was denigrating your school, never crossed my mind.
I represent the school as a parent and father only. If I feel that blogging is messing with the school reputation, then .. gone. I think it might be close to that
@ All black- it was reported in the Daily News as official and has been held for a few years now.Your response is exactly why I brought it up.These things happen ,accept and move on. I think it was you and a few GW bloggers that have struggled to come to terms with it. If I have to hear one more if or but.(Blind leading the blind) @ Gungetts- you postulate quite a lot and make sense a lot of the time. Personally I think that fear should defintely not be the primary source of motivation.Allow me to pass the ball back into your court. You keep referring to College’s reputation as the source of all things good and indeed it is impressive.Reference was made to Savage(in the SA U19 team) who was a Westville boy obviously attracted to College through its cricket reputation. Is there not however a real fear that this reputation might be diminishing somewhat which was evidenced by the uproar amongst the old boys when the above mentioned cricket team thumped College by 150 runs.This year Westville’s U14A,U15A,U16As beat College and the Ists are rated number 1 in KZN.Please I say this not to attack College but to point out that nothing must be taken for granted and you do not build and nuture a school’s reputation by being blind to the realities around you and denigrating those of other schools(not necessarily you). Does that make sense. And yes while College is 149 years old and we should all celebrate its 150th birthday next year(quite an achievement), you and your son are the current custodians of its reputation and values and do represent the school.
boy
@star: Eeeisch, you are way too defensive.
1. I did NOT target Westville. What I said was (and the Westville parents are quite happy to agree) that Westville, Michaelhouse and Hilton (I could easily include Kearsney in there) have the biggest budgets. I cannot see Westville funding that from their school fees, so it must be Old Boys funding it. Some of the Westville folk are quite happy to admit it. And, there is nothing wrong with that – it is not a criticism.
2. At no stage did I say that Westville have had a poor year. I said that the funds will start drying up IF they have poor performances despite the money. My point was that the fear of losing funding can cause people to lose focus on the important stuff, and it could easily prompt a school to refuse to play against a strong team if there is a way of doing so. Westville, Hilton and House found that way. Whether it was principle or fear, I cannot say, but it has to be considered.
3. I don’t “represent” College. The school has been there for 149 years, it defends and promotes itself. If I start thinking that I am damaging the reputation of College by blogging then I am gone like a robbers dog.
Hope that clarifies things.
Just a question … “What else can I say although certain College and GW supporters kept on resisting the obvious.What is the old saying of the blind leading the blind?”. Not sure what that means??. Does it relate to those rankings which I love so much, or something else?
Huh? Official luncheon? who makes a gathering of farmers and parents official?????? What has this got to do with or discussion. This is like kids in a sand box. I end my participation here with the following: Make sure your house is clean before taking umbrage with others. The new year promises much.
@Star, Glenwood have had that trophy for the past 3 or 4 years and well done to Michaelhouse for winning it this year. It’s a far easier task when you only have about 14 fixtures in the year. Anyway, Westville seem to have this superiority complex and at times seem to think they are a private school who can dictate to others. Why did Westville have no problem playing Hilton with Cameron Wright being poached? Don’t say it was because he was grade 10, it’s the same thing as Marne. It’s double standards, I think you will find Westville are blind not College and Glenwood. It’s sad to see how desparate Westville were to get a win over Glenwood that they had to resort to underhanded disruption tactics. Anyway, let’s move on now I am bored of the debate……the schools will never agree….
@ All black- I am actually a sensitive fellow. Please read Gungets comments above where he states that love of victory(via) money is the root of all evil and how long will the old boys keep forking out for non performance. Pray tell who was he talking about. He then asks me if his uncharitable comments are wrong. Well if he is talking about Westville then he is from the Moon.Westville possibly have had the best start to a year in their history ( and that was before Chadmania ).If he wants to put it out there then surely he(and College who he represents) must do their time. I will name the two boys that you refer to as coming back next year. Khuzwayo and Jackson who will be U19 next year but have come through the ranks.What exactly is your point as as far as what has been agreed they are ” bona fide sportsmen”.And please do not use the word “possibly”. Either know your facts or keep quiet.You also refer to boys having ankle problems.As far as I am aware there was one boy and he did leave the field with a rolled ankle.When the issue of age came up he was kept out until his position could be cleared up and he played in the last game against Kearsney. That is exactly why I came onto the blogs in the first place and that was to challenge deliberate disinformation.I will however agree that Hilton is starting to worry me.They seem to have a bloodlust which will have severe repercussions.You see even as an old boy I will not be blinded. By the way at the official luncheon MHS were crowned the top KZN rugby school followed by Kearsney. College and GW were tied 3rd and Westville 5th. Did Westville deserve it? Yes as they had their opportunities and quite frankly did not perform at key moments.What else can I say although certain College and GW supporters kept on resisting the obvious.What is the old saying of the blind leading the blind?
Grasshopper – My son at Glenwood told me at the time that the Marne issue surfaced that Westville DID try and secure Marne – as I have said in 365 blogg before We live in Pinetown and the lightie has many Westvile High school friends so I hear these things – I will repeat one comment I heard from a Westville boy in my house about the Marne issue – Westville are “Whoosies” for not allowing Marne to play and the school was wrong
In reality Westville , Hilton and House were concerned GW would beat them – Westvile won on the day the other 2 lost anyway
At the 7’s at GWD on Saturday I watched a large group of parents “High Fiving” and Jumping up and down and shouting “that’ for Marne” ! everytime Glenwood scored a try against Westville – 3 or 4 tries (GWD won 36 – 12 I think)
So the cut goes deep here and whilst everyone may agree that we must move on and get over it which will happen but there is a bitter aftertaste as far as Westville’s action goes
Star; I am very surprised at some of your comments.You must have have skin 3 inches thick. You now attack College and where the boys are from? FFS, it is predominantly a boarding school so the boys wont be from PMB. College is the one school that came out of this age thing completely clean. If you want me to start naming kids at Westville we can do that. Suddenly boys have ankle problems etc? You also have one or two boys coming back next year who are possibly mature? The bottom line is that the 3 schools who refused to play GW now seem to be the ones with skeletons. College were not happy with the Marne issue and voiced their concerns. Dont jump on the holier than thou horse and start shouting about Westville and Hilton being the good guys. At present they are doing pretty much exactly what they accused GW of doing, not acting in the interests of fair play.
@star: Well, I was the one that said it was uncharitable, but am I wrong. How long will the Old Boys carry on ponying up if the teams do not perform.
And I stick with my point. I cannot vouch for PMB not producing cricketers, but at least 5 of those A team boys went to Merchiston, then to College. Should they rather go to their local township school. The rest are boarders, they chose College for reasons other than sports scholarships because I can only see one who has a scholarship in the A team. Remember that cricket and hockey at College are like swimming at Westville – the boys come because College is consistently top of the heap.
Want to compare the number of scholarships at College and Westville?
@ Gungets- when I talk about mercenary I would be referring to the A teams mostly.I was surprised with regard to the team in question that a city such as PMB could only have one representative and even his father comes from the FS.I don’t think there are any midlands boys and only one son of a WOB(everyone can have a blind spot now and again).Interestingly the U15 team with the most scholarships is neither Westville nor College but DHS.The point being that you were a bit liberal with your earlier uncharitable comments.With regard to your later post Hilton has a large intake from JHB(40-50%).(MHS to a lesser extent) The schools have identified the need to improve the old boy percentage to around 20 %. They have also both introduced a wiener(is that the correct term for small cow) project where the proceeds can fund/assist the sons of old boys.There is defintely a balance that needs to be achieved to ensure that core values and loyalties are retained. That is why you must commend John Allan and Connor for choosing GW.
I have a feeling Westville lost the struggle to enrol Marne, hence it was sour grapes. I’m sure Marne looked at all the KZN schools and had offers from them all. Hence Michaelhouse, Hilton and Westville thought they would ‘punish’ Glenwood. Marne probably chose Glenwood due to a number of Afrikaans speaking boys in the 1st team and in the BE. It would have been easier to integrate with these boys. Also, Waterkloof were at similar festivals to Glenwood and he might have made friends at Glenwood whilst at Waterkloof. @Star, I believe Marne’s parents did move back to KZN, but I stand to be corrected. This seems a stupid rule considering schools like Grey Bloem and Glenwood have kids in the BE from around the country. KZN can’t operate in it’s own bubble and kids move around…..it’s a hard one to police..
@star: Just one other comment on this “home town” discussion – does anyone have a count of how many Michaelhouse and Hilton boys are local, or Kearnsey (which is probably slightly higher)
Thumbs up to the 3 schools that had the balls to take a stance which directly resulted in an agreement that hopefully will bring about better cooperation and transparency. Thumbs up to Mrs Vermaak not DHS who did what others had turned a blind eye to.Likewise thumbs down to GW for only acting when the writing had been on the wall for ages and everything was out in the open anyway.
@ Greenhopper- Westville does have boarding +/- 100 boys and these would be the boys in the A teams.Not as mercenary as some people might think.Westville is primarily built on community and area and therefore the reference to glory through money is a bit disengenious.The MHS first team had 6 or 7 boys who were the sons of old boys. Were they all brought or were they following in the line of the fathers?
@star: No, it is not mercenary at all. How many of those boys in the A teams were on scholarship, compared to the number in the Westville team. How many were from the KZN Midlands area and go to the closest decent shool that has a BE that can accomodate 80 boys in each grade. How many from Durban who regard College as a better option for their boys than the Durban schools. Intersting that some of those boys have dads who are Westville Old Boys, begging another question altogether. Can’t blame College for having a reputation to attract boys, you will need to look inward for Westvilles inability to do that.
I will publish, since it is public information anyway, all the current Grade 9 boys with scholarships (7 in total for sport, plus 6 “closed scholarships” which are offered by outside agencies like the Jacques Kallis foundation), if you do the same. You up for that???
At least 2 of the schools had decided to play against Glenwood on the first weekend, on the day that Westville played Glenwood – I have already detailed my conversation with Tony Jordan where he just said that they had 2 boys under 19 and didn’t see what the fuss was about. College never had it in mind not to play, but a lot of us didn’t like Mr Westman appearing. The boys did not have an issue – they are friends (but never brothers!!!)
Tell me though – if Westville did not have success on the sportsfield, do you think the Old Boys would carry on funding the school, especially in sport?
@star: goes without saying that most Westville boys are from the Highway area. That’s always going to be the case for a school that doesn’t have boarding so that arguement falls flat.
@ grassy- do you know how to follow a line of argument. You raised the issue of relocation. I argued that you had misinterpreted the intent of the exception.(supported by Beet).You then go off on a tangent about beating dead horses and subjective opinions about manipulation.You also mention ” a few other players’ that were covered up(and do not refer to Buthelezi who you have already referred to as having failed and being U19 which I do not think is contary to the above agreement.)Do you have their names? Westville also did the honourable thing and volunteered to withdraw him from the GW game to appease GW.
@ Greenhopper- Blimey man where did I say anything about the terms of the above agreement. I went to Westville and Hilton and so know how to read.I simply stated that Westville had taken a principled stance in terms of a previous understanding,gentleman’s handshake (whatever) and have subsequently been vindicated by the new arrangement.GW cannot say so as their position has changed and therefore were not being true to the spirit of co-operation as was previously intended.You must remember that the spirit of any agreement is always more persuasive than the letter which you bang on about.I still do not have a satisfactory answer why Kershaw did not state his case.He was in the firing line and needed to do so.It is as simple as that. Is that clear enough?
@ Gungetts – we certainly do not need lawyers. I think that is the whole point. Hall refers to robust debate amongst men with integrity and proactive objectives.Hopefully this will happen in the future.Also as mentioned previously the only common link betwen the 3 schools mentioned where that they were the first three.You refer to the mercenary nature of the schools.I find it therefore stange that when my son played College at cricket(U14/15 A) there was only one boy from PMB and I don’t think one son of an old boy. Is that not the defintion of mercenary?On the other hand almost 100% of the Westville boys were from the highway area.Makes one think does it not.
So the rugby season has ended and the worms are still coming out the can – good and valid points made by all and at the end of the day money in persuite of honour and glory rules
Thumbs down to the 3 schools who refused to play Glenwood – Thumbs up to DHS and Glenwood who acknowledged overage issues and acted swiflty –
Not so to the other school who continued to play a 23 year old who “Rolled an ankle” and a big up to Beet for allowing an open debate here
@beet: i have to say , note was made , aplenty , that they were relocating , to comply with agreement, like i said the same was noted about Warren, and this has to stop,
Comments on on this blog “its all history”
History has an effect on all that follows
@Greenhopper: Everywhere that there are agreements, there are loopholes and the determines will find and use them. The other headmasters, certainly the few I spoke to, were concerned about the apparent breach in the agreement, but remember it is not a contract. For that you need lawyers, then you need Doom for crawling insects as well :-)
I am going to uncharitable here and say this. I find it interesting that the 3 schools that refused to allow Marne to play are also those schools that are quite open about the money they spend on getting their sports teams to the top. Is it not possibly that they were not only trying to get keep their teams as competitive as possible, but mostly trying to ensure a nice ROI (return on investment) for the Old Boys who were funding it?
The love of victory (via money) being the root of all evil?
Now, all of you, please stop looking after your cars so well (Beet – you are excused here – the PMB heavies seem to do it for you!!), so that I can tow you, make more money, and donate it to my school ..
@Greenhopper: I don’t think his parents ever relocated anywhere. They just wanted to give Marne the best opportunities rugbywise which is why they looked at Affies and Glenwood. Like Hopper said, his then school Waterkloof play knockout compos in the old Transvaal region which are strictly u18, so he would not have been allowed to play. Despite all the controversy he still benefitted in terms of game time by being in KZN, missing only 3 games of the entire season.
@beet: what isn’t clear here, is if this is the agreement that was reached as referred to here, the only side making such proclamations, smoke and mirrors I think, making everyone belive it existed, I am sure if it existed and was applicable to last year , more headmasters might have made comment and Kershaw would have made noise, but I think Westville jumped in creating speculation and muddying the waters on the issue, BUT they were the only ones making noise about it , the other 11 odd schools weren’t
@beet: are you saying that Marnes Parents didnt relocate after all of that media stuff sayoingthey were, here is a relocation for teh sake of the Kids Rugby career?? a major no no???, I would like to see if Warrens Parents relocated as well ,
@Greenhopper:
Here’s the newspaper extract from 10 March, the day of the Westville/Glenwood game. It seems to point to there being an agreement of sorts in place before the match took place.
http://twitpic.com/8ud4tb
@star: please , it is clear from the wording of this , that the agreement comes into force 2012, and discussed in March 2012 , Marne was already enrolled at GW meeting ALL of the requirements, hence they Westville and ALL of them were simply unethical , that can’t be debated
it doesn’t note that this forms part of an existing agreement or arrangement and seeks to clarify , it states that AT THAT TIME, points of agreement were reached and when it was to be enforced, I see no reason why Kershaw had to answer for something that wasn’t in effect, blimley man, its pretty dam clear what is written there and the defined terms of the agreement , not hearsay or other supposed issues, it very dam clear
@Star, it’s like beating a dead horse with you. Westville seem to think they are angels in this debate, let’s just say they manipulated the scenario to suit them. For the record and mentioned hundreds of times, I don’t like imports and hope it stops for 2013. However, I do support something if it seems right and the Marne inclusion was right, as most other schools agreed. Marne missed 3 games in a total of 25 so it seems Westville, Hilton and Michaelhouse were the only ones. Funny though, it’s pot calling kettle black, because Hilton & Michaelhouse are now the biggest recruiters and Westville had an Under19 kid who had failed a year in their side and then also covered up a few other players in the age debate by claiming one was injured and then having an internal audit, not an independent one. Seems like Westville like to brush things under the carpet and not face the music publically..
@ All black- Cameron is in grade 11 this year at Hilton. He joined Hilton last year after the rugby season and I was told went back into grade 10.
@ Grassy- the exception of relocation was clearly to deal with the situation where a parent had to move and take his kids with him.Then the move would be legitimate.As you quite clearly point out the move was prompted by the fact Marne could not play Beeld Trophy and therefore was done for rugby reasons. This was further complicated by the involvement of Erasmus with KZN U 19.I am not sure what the fact that his parents are originally from DBN has to do with anything other than to make the move easier to handle.According to you the agreement is nul and void because all you have to do is relocate to legitimise the deal. Surely not the spirit in which agreement was reached.
@Pedantic: I think without having any further info available, the agreement above disqualifies Cameron Wright from participating in 2013 unless as Star suggests, that he arrived half way thru Gr.11 from one of the best academic schools in SA and was demoted to Gr.10 again. I will try to find out what ruling applies to him. The good news is Cameron is joining the Sharks after school and even next year he will be a key member of the Sharks u19 team.
@Grasshopper: I have never felt that it was fair for Marne to be victim of something he and his parents were probably never aware of at the time but for the purpose of your argument above to succeed, Marne’s parents had to have relocated, which I don’t think happened.
I don’t think your statement about the E/Cape is controversial at all. I would have thought the region would have welcomed the opportunity to clean house. A good place to start would have been Ithemibelihle School outside PE where 2 over age KZN players originally came from.
@Ludz, I heard Queens had a good game on Saturday. Good to see the character shown by the Queens side. Having an average start to the season they finished well. Glenwood should have klapped that Dale side too, if only they kept the ball in the forwards. Anyway, it’s a genuine concern. I think the whole country needs to do an annual age audit..
@grasshopper,you should see a photo of their no8 this year, that comes from zim,must be 25,but the school features in every local newspaper as hero’s,every grey haired old boy writing articles about how good their first team is,glad QC gave them a good klap
@all, this may come across controversial, but have the Eastern Cape rural based sides been checked for age eg Dale? The reason I say this is that is where the 2 main culprits in KZN came from.
Where there is a will to find a loophole, there will be a way. It’s a culture thing, and all about reputation. I have no doubt the agreement will be tested in the next couple of years, each school supporter defending the schools position.
As for the Dale College position – yeah, well .. that sort of behaviour generates more of the same. They will struggle to attract any sort of talent in Gr8 because every kid will realise that he is expendable – would you encourage your boy to go to Dale when you know that he will be replaced by a foreign player in a heartbeat??
All it will take to become the powerhouse in that region is for the school to make it plain that they support loyalty and tradition.
@Star, “An exception to this would be if the family had relocated, thereby making his move to the school legitimate.” – in Marne’s case this was a genuine move as he would not have been able to play Beeld Trophy for Waterkloof and his family was originally from KZN. Therefore, Glenwood complied with the agreement and Marne should have played. Simple! Hall just wanted to disrupt the game and cuase animosity.
somebody should forward this agreement to Dale college in the Eastern Cape,heard they have signed 6 more Zim u19s for next year,as they had this year
@All Black: Does that mean he falls foul of the agreement for the 2013 season, since he wasn’t at Hilton from Gr10 ?
@All Black: If your a talented rugga player, its a brave decision to repeat a grade out of your own and/or parents will. I haven’t seen an u19 school leaver make it at junior rugby level in a while. Marcel vd Merwe is only name that comes to mind of the good u19 schoolboys and he was a while back now. You definitely want to be u18 coming out of school these days to place yourself in the best possible position to succeed in rugby.
@star: Repeated a portion? Surely you either repeat or you dont? He started school with the current Grade 12’s but repeated grade 11 at Hilton so that they could get some mileage out of their investment.
@beet- Westville’s position before the GW game has now been agreed to by all parties after the game. They have been consistent in terms of what is in the best interests/spirit of the game.I am just responding to greenhopper and other GW bloggers who accuse the Westville head and coach of acting unethically. In fact is it not their head who has changed his position and at no stage considered it necessary to be transparent and defend the position of GW and Marne.
With regard to Cameron, I think he repeated a portion of Grade 10 at Hilton and therefore would not fall foul of the “agreement”
@beet: Interesting scenario Beet. What this means is that U16 players are now going to be the boys being targeted for moves to schools who are buying. Isnt this what has just happened to a Glenwood boy? Schools are going to have to watch out for the ‘Private school shopping spree’ that is being talked about. Watch out Glenwood, College, Westville an DHS.
@star: “…headmasters have had a change in attitude and therefore have been inconsistent and a little bit unethical” – is this asking about before or after the Westville vs Glenwood match???
@Gungets Tuft: I learned that from reading blogs, so this info sharing is really just the beauty of blogging at play :smile:
@All Black: There are all kinds of exceptions that might have to be made along the way. For example a future case like Rencken’s might be one. I think as long as they are honest and transparent, no one will have an issue.
I just wonder where the agreement places a player like Hilton’s Cameron Wright now. He was not at HC in Gr.10 and will be u19 next year. I wonder if existing players are exempt in terms of the agreement.
What rule have they put in place to stop MHS and Hilton poaching players in Grade 11, keeping them back a year, and playing them as U19’s in their final year?
In the best interest /spirit of the game has been subsequently and unanimously defined and ratified by this agreement which was effectively the Westville,MHS and Hilton position.The simple question is which headmasters have had a change in attitude and therefore have been inconsistent and a little bit unethical.
@Gungets Tuft: Yep, Marcel can play in matric. He arrived at College in Grade 8 as an U15 boy who had either started school late or stayed back in junior school. Not sure which. What is important is that he has not stayed back just for grade 12. Malelokoe (Spelling) College centre for 1st and 2nds this year was the same. U19 but started school late. Can accept that as the U19 rule is there to help these kids. It is not there to allow for U19’s to be brought in to bolster a team for 1 year.
@beet: See, that’s why your have a schoolboy rugby blog and I tow broken down cars for a living, cosYcos you can see past the obvious. Quite correct – I had forgotten about the Craven week and SA Schools thing. I will be quiet now :-)
@Gungets Tuft: The incentive to fail a grade and stay in school longer for sports purposes has disappeared with the same 2007 national agreement that also eliminated post-matrics. An u19 no longer qualifies for Craven Week or SA Schools selection. Furthermore a player entering junior rugby at the u20 level is severely disadvantaged, having a) lost out on a year of next level full-time development and b)not qualifying for u19 Currie Cup rugby (he has to play in the u21 age group)
I have added a little more content. This meeting took place on 14 March 2012, 4 days after the Westville vs Glenwood game.
It lists the parties present. Very good that the heads could come together and minute the issue.
This is obviously a new agreement, the old one was a gentleman’s agreement and was therefore probably not in writing.
@All Black: Does this then allow Marcell Coetzee to play in his final year at school where he will be U19 but has satisfied all the other criteria?
I am pretty sure that these clauses were all in the last Headmasters agreement but because it was an “agreement” and not a contract (which it still is not, from the look of it), it left the way open for confrontation.
It still leaves the way open for a kid to fail Grade 11, turn 19 on 2nd January, and run out for the school. In my mind, the kid should not be allowed to play if he is 19 on match day and has repeated a High School grade. It caters for the late starters (8 years old in January of grade 1) but also eliminates the possibility of manipulation.
In the spirit of the game – you would hope that it would be all that is necessary.
@Greenhopper: I certainly do not wish to pass judgement on either party as it is history. All I can say is that there was an agreement in place prior to 2012 but the main clause was that all schools would act in the best interests of the game. Perhaps both schools pushed the boundary here. Whatever the opinions, perhaps it is time to move on and ensure that this does not happen again.
so , one might actually exist, but didn’t when the issue of Marne was about ?? we can conclude that the Westville head and Coaches acted unethically ,So on need for Kershaw to stand up and defend himself like it has been stated , the agreement by the looks of it is only effective in 2013, and wouldn’t have applied to 2012
what we need to establish is who compiled the agreement and who has signed it