Nelson Mandela, the father of the nation, died on December 5 2013 at the age of 95.
A great leader who respected all and earned the respect of all.
He will be remembered forever throughout the world.
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Playa, fighting for democracy and then supporting a string of tyrants who govern their countries by force makes about as much sense as the sign language interpreter at Madiba’s funeral. Another ANC world first. It makes as much sense as f….ng for virginity.
@Deon Pitzer: No, My question was would it be fair to say they supported it on the premise that they did not speak out against it?
I cannot defend his stance on China, as he had a long history with the communist party leaders, and made the decision not to work against them, so that could well be one of his weaknesses/flaws, I agree. The fault of every other leader of a ‘democratic’ country that still works with China. The only thing I am disagreeing with you is the part where you say he supported JZ. Anyone who knows anything about the inners of the ANC know that that is wrong.
Yes Playa, it would be fair to speak out against the whites not speaking out against apartheid. I was born in 1970, and therefore knowingly and unknowingly benefited from apartheid. I have to admit that daily, I explain that to my children. Moreover, politicians, including Mr Mandela, never hold back in speaking out against those people. It is good to do so, the truth heals.
Doing business with China/Libya etc cannot be compared to openly supporting their politics. SA Government does not support e.g. Israel, and never hold back at lashing out against him. The murdered victims of the Tiananmen Square massacre is in no way different from what happened on the 16th of June 1976. Their blood is crying out against the ignorant and subjective like yourself.
@Deon Pitzer: Would it be fair that all whites who did not publicly speak out against apartheid were supporters of apartheid?
Would it be fair to say that those young men who were forced to do 2 years of service in the army (conscription) supported the notion and what the government of the time was up to?
Would it be fair to say that everyone who was part of the SAP/SADF supported apartheid?
My personal answers to the above questions are NO. I’d be interested to hear what you think.
Those in the know, know that Mandela was no fan of JZ, or the current ANC leadership for that matter. Not speaking out against these things was for the benefit of his own health, more than anything. Moreover, he was a huge believer that one’s dirty laundry should never be hung out of the world to see ( for example, he would have disagreed with JZ’s booing at FNB, as much as he deserved it). If you could bring empirical evidence that he ‘supported’ JZ, I would be most appreciative. Public silence does not equal support.
Supporting the Chinese? Name a country that does not do business with the Chinese.
You seem to believe that appearing in public with someone equals support. That is flawed. Gadaffi was a horrible man, but had some ideals that if carried out properly could have benefited this continent.
To flip the coin, there are a lot of black people who feel that his greatest mistake was coming out and preaching forgiveness and reconciliation instead of seeking revenge. A number of people, to this day believe that was a bad idea. Was that a blunder or simply a difference in points of view? My point is, you seem to disagree with a lot of things he did, and therefore consider those to be his mistakes. Be objective, and just see some of these as simply a difference in point of views.
Ludz/Queenian. I see Mr Mandela as a great man. I do not believe that when someone passes, we should honour him/her by only speaking about their virtues. The person in totality should be honoured, his/her mistakes cannot be ignored. That would mean you are disrespecting him. He was, as I said, an exceptional human being, earning a lot of respect, but not only respect. He leaves many questions unanswered. For a man who fought his entire life for democracy, openly supporting so many undemocratic dictators like the Chinese, Gadaffi-you name them… and supporting a man who admitted having extramarital sex with an HIV positive woman (knowingly), and acknowledging in court that he attempted to remedy the situation by taking a showe, it is not to be honoured. You cannot grasp that JZ he was too much of a coward to face a Court of Law, and hence he was not found guilty or innocent. Supporting a party condemning the Dalai Lama. How do you understand his struggle for freedom of speech? Supporting the Chinese who invade democratic sovereign countries and banning people, taking away the vote etc…. How then does Nelson Mandela earn only respect? If you cannot face reality, I just do not know.
@BOG: Exactly! Such stats are not reliable, and they are as blurry now, as they were back then. It’s all politics. No point in debating that matter.
And on your last point, Mandela was first to admit that he is no saint, and even publicly admitted to certain mistakes he has made when confronted. It’s people that put him on a pedestal. That is the most admirable thing about him…even more than the good that he has done. In all, there is no point in trying to ‘humanise’ him by pointing out his faults…he already did that. Look around, you will not find many leaders who are man enough to do so. Start here at home, and make your way up next door in Zim, then swim around the world…you’ll be lucky to find a handful.
@Playa: Im not in the blame game and I made that very clear, but equally, post 1994, did not become the information age either. The stats being released by the SAPS once a year, and the unreliability of it, does not make it any easier either.When we look for missing persons, we would have to go and look all over, including Angola, Zambia, Zim and particularly in Arusha, Tanzania. However one looks at the situation, its very clear that there are very few , if any, saints in politics and Im glad that Im not in it. And for anyone to pretend there are, would be extremely naive.
@BOG: By your own admission, you have speculated and used guesswork to state your conclusion…it is also interesting that you provide numbers (which don’t seem to add up from observation, but I hope you can explain them to me) of the deaths that occurred under apartheid, but merely make a statement for the post 1994 deaths, without stating numbers.
My point is, we could spend all year bringing out all sorts of numbers and permutations, just because one wants people to see their own perspective…using words like “unlikely”, “I don’t think”, “I cannot verify”. The point of my questions above was to illustrate just how much information is missing, especially in the 46 years prior to 1994…heck, one could even take it further to 1652 and during the entire period of colonialism.
A comparison of who has done worse between the apartheid regime and the current government is worth no more than a schoolboy d!ck measurement contest. All it does is it brushes egos, and eases certain individuals’ guilt. It does nothing for our current problems, and is certainly not a foundation for any sort of forward movement.
@Playa: Those that went “missing” and unaccounted for , were allocated to one of the two groups, ie govt. or ANC/PAC , depending who the missing were. I dont think it was 100% reliable, but not far off. Even the 21000, like an opinion poll, allows for a small margin of error. It would be most unlikely that EXACTLY 21000 died.
Regarding your second question, here Im relying on others. It may appear extremely high, but political violence remains higher than most people think. There are cases where govt. is directly involved and others where survivors have testified that the perpetrators were wearing items of clothing/shoes which appear to be military or SAPS issue. I cannot verify this.
@BOG: Is it safe to consider the people that went ‘missing’ during those 46 years, and not proclaimed dead as ‘officially dead’ now?
“Since 1994, more people have been killed than in the preceding 46 years.”
Are we still talking about people killed only due to political violence here? More specifically, people killed by the government.
@Deon Pitzer: Barack Obama, was spotted having a chat and a laugh with Raul Castro. An unsuspecting person would have thought the 2 get along, and worse even, support each other’s political/moral stance. So JZ rocking up at Madiba’s house with a couple of ANC big-wigs and taking a picture with him (an ailing man mind you), should not be mistaken for a support of any course. Mandela’s stance on corruption or any untoward behaviour is documented. And those close to him know very well what his feelings are towards the current ANC leadership.
“If the ANC government does to you what the apartheid government did to you. Do to it what you did to the apartheid government” – Nelson Mandela
The man was not a saint, but to suggest that he supported anything wrongdoing Zuma is alleged to have committed (by being silent), is a spit in the face of his memory.
“blogspot” and not blogsport”
@BOG: Take a peep at http://iluvsa.blogsport.com/2009/11/no-retribution-for-mbeki.html
@Ludz: Nothing was proven for the simple reason that proceedings were suspended when he gained power and it has continued ever since, right to where we are with Nkandla. @Queenian: The environment in which I was did not permit me the luxury of speculation and guesswork. One of those areas, is the number of deaths over a few decades. Here are some verified figures, which may surprize some if not many. From 1948 – 1994, an estimated 21000 people died in politically motivated killings, 14000 between 1990 and 1994. The apartheid govt. (SAP/security forces )was responsible for 7518 over a period of 46 years. The ANC / PAC were responsible for 13482 ( “black-on-black”) Since 1994, more people have been killed than in the preceding 46 years. I find that its always wise to focus on what cause a politician advances rather than the cause he opposes.It gives us a clearer picture of his “value” or true achievements.
@Deon Pitzer: so he was supposed to stop supporting the guy based on allegation, nothing has ever been proven. I feel you disrespecting the memory of such a great man based on the fact that he endorsed Zuma as the party had decided to elect him as president. Please note I am not clearing Zuma of any wrong doing, but unless it was proven. There was no way he was ever gonna stop endorsing Zuma.
Queenian. I am not stupid enough to believe that white politicians ran a clean ship. Their inhumane actions and deeds are still sources of embarrassment for many of us, and we are reminded of these deeds so often. But what is good for the geese is not good for the gander in South African politics, and Mr Mandela refused to address these issues. By remaining silent when he should have spoken out, he actually endorsed it. Since you mentioned Vorster, I used his history as an illustration. For an offense that seems minute when compared to those of JZ, he was fired. Yet, Mr Mandela, great man he was, appeared with JZ in public, and supported the very same party guilty of covering up acts for which any one of us would have ended up in jail. This does not say that I did not admire Mr Mandela. But that is reality. The Archbishop approached these issues in a way to be expected from a public figure who was awarded a Nobel Prize
@Queenian: I traveled Scotland quite extensively- St Andrews (Even walked the hallowed turf), Inverness, Aviemore, Ullapool, Gairloch, Isle of Arran, Ben Nevis and the Hebredes and I got the distinct impression that the Scots loved the Brits
Im sure then that the current efforts to gain independence from Britain, enjoys your full support? I cannot afford to dislike them- my wife and children are Brits, although only my son was born there.
@Deon Pitzer: If we as white South African’s think that the white politian’s ran a clean ship you are very mis informed, the current Government is a bunch of thieves who openly show that without any shame and ye they need to be shot, but I promise you the old were very corrupt as well they were just a lot cleverer when it came to hiding it.
@BOG: @Deon Pitzer: Sorry gents my comment about Nazi was a bit over the top was just trying to bring in to perspective what the old regime was up to and how they fooled all of us white folks just like the Nazi’s fooled the German public.
@BOG: Ye I do realize the history of the concentration camps and how those women were treated which was shocking although that happens in war no matter how wrong it is just remember that is what Mandela was about you speak of people still harbouring hatred about the 30 000 women remember what Mandela is did was ask his people to forget about maybe 300 000 people that were killed or man handled over apartheid.
Also I would say the general saying the “British” is a bit vague what happened with the concentration camps with 30 000 people is something shocking and hopefully will never be repeated but just remember those pommie idiots killed some 3 million of my clansman over a 500 year period so in comparison it was nothing.
Does not mean I hate the English but ye I don’t like them.
Aah Dalibunga!!! Madiba omde, Sopitsho, Yem Yem, Ngqolomsila, Velebembentsele. Phumla Dlomo, isizwe kwakunye nezizwe ziyabulela Tatomkhulu!!! Dalibunga
Queenian. I am not sure how Verwoerd and Malan took part in any corruption. Their policies were politically corrupt, and this fact is acknowledge by all politicians in parliament, even the FF. None of these men are seen as heroes by the vast majority of white people today, and their faults and errors are admitted continuously. The consequences of their policies were made public at the TRC and these actions were admitted as crimes by the perpetrators. Vorster was implicated in the Information Scandal. His complicity was made public, denounced by his party, and he was fired. Eschell Rhodie had no choice but to emigrate due to his complicity in this scandal, which in no way can be compared to some of the scandals by members of Mr Mandela’s party. The main difference is clearly visible, the old perpetrators were exposed. The new perpetrators’ actions are covered up and these perpetrators were openly supported by Mr Mandela.
@Queenian: I think its still too early to judge or evaluate the performance or effectiveness of any politician of the last 100 years. But that will come sooner than most people think. Personally, I believe in the next 6-7 years. We should then see the fruit, good or bad by that done over the last century. I made my opinion clear about some of the characters who you mention, but I think that we should keep perspective. While there were certainly Nazi sympathizers , we need to be careful not to confuse anti British sentiments with being pro Nazi. For many, the events in British concentration camps, where an estimated 30000 women and children perished due to malnutrition, were just too fresh in their memories to fight alongside the perpetrators of those camps. And I say this as having British as family (in case Im branded as anti British)
This man’s greatness is unequalled in South African history. There are a lot of SA whites who owe this man there way of life he came out after 27 years after been treated like an animal by yes ‘whites” and he opted for peace which say’s a lot and not revenge.
Ye there is a lot of corruption in the present ANC setup but we still have our way of life and yes there was Malan/Verwoed/Vorster and PW who all belong in the Nazi/Hilter era although a lot of our present white population still deem these idiots hero’s.
Mandela was the “Hero for all SA people”
@Speartackle: The irony (and truth) is that I met him several times and talked to him. Also Graca. (And quite a few more) I even have a photo lying somewhere where Im standing next to him. Im saying this not to impress. Im simply saying that my opinion is based on personal impressions and all of what he said and not just that which was allowed by the spin doctors.I have always regarded the Americans, generally speaking, as ignorant regarding Africa, but after reading several of their blogs, Im convinced that they were less affected by propaganda than SAs.
Spear, not everybody, only some people.
Now all of a sudden everyone has met him in person. As a child I once walked past Prof Johan Claassen and its a day I’ll never forget
I met him in person in 1991 as a guest of Nusas at the University of Stellenbosch. I was overwhelmed by the man. He surely was a near perfect human being, and his integrity can never be doubted. It is a day I will never forget. He stands out head above shoulders above the other incapable, fraudulent leaders of his party. It is a pity that Mr Mandela never spoke out against these utterly delinquent members of his party, and instead showed support to the party.
24 June 1995 was one of the greatest days in my life. The morning I had a meeting with The Great Man in his house in Houghton. Although a business meeting, he gave us a lesson in life, and then on how to approach business in a sound fashion – and to this day I still try to follow his advice. He also said that even if you disagree with someone, try to see and understand the point in contention from the other side. This will bring people closer together.
And that afternoon we were all privileged to see him lifting the World Cup with Francois Pienaar.
I had the privilage of meeting the great man in 1990 just after his release with his visit to Bisho..I was doing a post army camp at that stage and was part of the security detail that had to secure the area around Bisho and extract the old Ciskei goverment of Lennox Sebe when Oupa Gqozo took over…We took over the whole of Bisho Sun and stayed there while our headquarters where the KWT Town Hall…Interesting times!..
nTweet vandag van n bekende afrikaanse gedig,. “Stil broers. Hier gaan n man verby…” RIP Madiba. Dankie vir die geleenthede wat jy vir ons kinders gegee het. Ons gaan jou mis!!
@Gungets Tuft:
mlungus were safer in Voslo in those days. My dad being a doctor, and our house was like a hospital.Once had a crew of IFP manne thirsty for blood calling or my dad.Luckily, one of them recognised him as one of the doctors at Bara and they had to let him go. 2 days later I had to be shipped off to live with my aunt and uncle in Alice, while my folks were pondering a move to the EC…something that only happened 2 years later in 1992, when the violence had ended.
@Woltrui: Exactly, Wolla, and it became clear within a week of his release from prison. More of a man than anyone of us could ever wish to be!
@ Gungets- You seem to cause kak wherever you go
My abiding memory was the crowd chanting Nelson before the 1995 final. The ABs were done there and then.
@Playa: Vosloorus, eeisch. I was traveling to Botswana in about 1990, ran short of petrol and had to pull off the N3 at Vosloorus. Bloody hell. We had been at the filling station for 2 minutes and there was trouble. I threw R20 at the attendant and I left on a hurry. I thought it was just the mlungu they didn’t like…
I dream of a school rugby system where everyone is in peace with itself
RIP Tata Madiba!
For me, it is one thing that this man came out of incarceration with a smile and full of forgiveness, convinced Black folk that violence was not the answer, thereby preventing a civil war. The remarkable thing is that while doing that, there was another war brewing, which he simultaneously played a HUUUUGE part in nipping in the bud…the Zulu-Xhosa clashes in the late 80’s-early 90’s. As a young boy in the township of Vosloorus at the time, it was like a magic wand had been swept across when one day one couldn’t even leave the house to go to school, and the next day Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho, Tswana alles were cleaning up the streets together.
What an inspiration!
Let us not forget the day Nelson Mandela, together with Francois Pienaar, lifted the Rugby world cup in 1995..A memory that will never be forgotten. At that very moment, there was not a more united and proud nation in the world..If only South Africa could stay that way in that very moment we experienced..
A legend had been laid to rest. Rest in peace Nelson Mandela #True Legend@>– Salute
@Speartackle: Obviously, and a few more- on both sides.
Madiba calmed the waters – there was a potential for a civil war
we owe him a lot RIP MADIBA !
@BOG: And what about Verwoerd?
As an opponent of apartheid, I found it difficult to mourn the passing away of John Vorster. I could of course, plunder my conscience now, and sing the praises, pretending that nothing published beyond the media, existed. But that would require compromise. As a non-communist, I am now faced with the same dilemma. In “How to be a Good Communist”, NM said: ” We, the members of the communist party, are the most advanced revolutionaries in modern history. The enemy (non communists) must first be wiped off the face of the earth, before a communist world can become a reality” But what I CAN do, is to forgive them, and only because I was forgiven.
Great great human being. For me his ability to forgive was remarkable.
Lets hope that never ever one will be oppressed by another again
RIP Tata Madiba he was a great man his legacy will live forever!!
RIP Comrade