Official or unofficial, I’m not sure this kind of stuff is even news anymore.
Rapport newspaper reported that at least half of the SA Schools team for 2014 would have to be players of colour. Here is a link in English.
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Quota-shock-in-schools-rugby-20140727
According to different report SARU subsequently denied it. Link here:
http://m.news24.com/sport24/Rugby/SARU-denies-quota-instruction-20140727
The SA Schools Squad:
Blue Bulls
Michael Kumbirai
Jan-Henning Campher
Sarel-Marco Smit
Aston Fortuin
Arnoldus Gerber
Embrose Papier
Marthinus de Beer
Andell Loubsher
Eduan Keyter
Border:
Jerry Danquah
Eastern Province:
Lupumlo Mguca
Junior Pokomela
Curwin Bosch
Keanu Vers
Falcons:
Marco Janse van Rensburg
Free State:
Ignatius Prinsloo
Thamaha Victor Maruping
Griffons:
Mlumzana Nkala
Griquas:
Jacobus Wiese
KwaZulu-Natal:
Ngonidzashe Chidoma
Jacobus Coetzee
Morné Joubert
Leopards:
Edmund Rheeder
Mpumalanga:
Barend Smit
South Western Districts:
Le Roux Baard
Eduard Zandberg
John Thomas Jackson
Western Province:
Jaco Willemse
Congratulations to all selected.
@GCollege86: Agreed!
@Playa: Its not a topic that I like to discuss but just my few cents on the quota issue. I think its an issue with parents and administrators in charge of our rugby. Our kids who has been exposed to all races and compete against and with each other don’t see race as an issue. However if team selections is based on quota / race it does become an issue. A good example is “Lappies” (a white Afrikaans boy) who is the Head Boy of Dale and was chosen by the scholars who is 98% non white. And then “Tango” who was chosen as captain of the Selborne 1st team. He is the only non white boy in the 1st team. Both chosen on merit. No issues with team mates and fellow scholars.
@Tjoppa: Yep. Just responded. Thank you.
@Playa: Did you get email?
@Tjoppa: Only SA team to make the semi’s
. I think even a full strength Bok team (picked on merit only) would have been in trouble against that Crusaders side in Christchurch. If by achieving you mean winning the cup – no. But they are the top SA team.
@Playa: Jake’s record with S14 better than the rest BUT with his group of players did he really achieve?
@Anti Green:
probably re-thinking his allegiance to Queens…and Selborne…2 of the most recent 3 Sharks captains have been Old Dalians…with the last Currie Cup captain leading them to winning the competition. Probably wondering why he didn’t send his sons to Dale instead 
@QC86: HAHAHAHA
I saw where you were going with it.
The amazing thing is the very people who usually scream “Let’s stop this fascination about race” are usually the first to see colour…in instances like these for example.
@Anti Green: No, no, no don’t get me wrong. Refer to my initial response to Tarpeys yesterday. I definitely don’t regard him as a token, and QC86 wasn’t insinuating that either. Just that the reality is there are people who will think he is token, and that the Sharks made the move to make a political statement. Chatting to someone yesterday, he has a theory that Jake White made this move to make the politicians take notice, and from there put pressure on SARU to re-instate him as coach. I mean, looking at the S15 teams this year, Jake has the best track record in as far as numbers and different positions are concerned. Anyway that was the guy’s take.
Below was my response to Tarpey yesterday, which is my view and belief:
“I heard in the news this morning. Big ups to him.
He’s considerably younger than me…I was 9 years out of school when he played and captained Dale in his matric year, but crossed paths frequently during his 4 year stint playing for the 1st team. Humble young man and leads by example. At least he did at school. Commanded respect amongst his peers and a true gentleman.
I know there are sceptics, but I believe he will step up to the task.”
@RBugger: Absolutely he was allocated to Toti Premier side, he played a game for Toti against Rhinos Empangeni. What a leader.
@QC86: Should have realised you were looking for kuk, thought you were a jealous Queens Old Boy. Quota systems in SA sport are never going to go away. There is tons of money and it’s all about control. I really don’t give a rats backside about quotas, if it’s going to effect my kids. Then they can go and ply their skill overseas. The same applies in the business world for them. They were born here and we can be united as one then they can be united elsewhere. How did your u15a side do this season? Some lovely boys in that side and very supportive parents.
@Playa: you thought i had lost it,hey
One more thing, when the hell is the SA SCHOOL side going to be announced??????????????????
First and foremost, Tera demands the respect of his teammates, simply through his outstanding form on the rugga field – he should have played more games for the Sharks, he is a great rugby player.
From face value, he looks like a good oke – I am sure he will do exceptionally well.
Sharks are in for a tough CC, do not be surprised to see one or two juniors (u19) playing a game or two for the CC – going to be a massive challenge for all those involved
@Anti Green: @Playa: sorry i was trying to prove a point.You see what enforced quotas do to all black peoples achievements,it cheapens all their achievements and casts doubt on what they are,so we need to do this other way ,Terra is no token in my mind,playa that knows me will see what i was trying to show and what possibly alot of people are thinking behind their smiling faces,and again i was trying to get a reaction to prove a point.Big fan of Terra
@Playa: Come on man, that was the last thing in my mind when reading that in the paper. Was quite excited for the bloke, now you have ruined it. How can Terra be a token? Give us you political view. That’s shocking to think and believe that. Know wonder all your school boys look else where to play the game. Dale should be proud 2 players have captained the Sharks.
@QC86:
tough being dark skinned in SA hey. Certainly an agenda behind the choice. There’s more to it than meets the eye. Unfortunate that Terra will be branded as TOKEN.
On the other hand, looking at the squad, considering how young it is and that no contracted Boks are part of it…take out the old dogs, he is the ‘most’ experienced youngster in the group.
To me there’s an argument for both ‘deserving’ and ‘token’. But I don’t believe he was chosen for the former.
@QC86: Shame on you and good luck in Queenstown as you must be lonely
Terra’s appointment as captain is just a TOKEN gesture by the Sharks????
@Tjoppa: Give that man a Bells!
To all the poachers involved :
“It is hard to isolate parents and the community where our learners originate from a child’s education as even the research shows that parental involvement improves the overall performance and behaviour of a child. If they do not feature anywhere in the child’s education, we brace ourselves for a disaster that outstrips even the 1976 Soweto uprising in South Africa and thus compromise the successful creation of empowering and sustainable learning environments. These are one of the key stakeholders in education and if they are fragmented so will be the child’s academic performance at school. I am always inspired by stories of learners who attribute their academic triumph to their parents’ and community’s continued support in their studies and they attest precisely to the fact that parental and community involvement in education are as significant as all other stakeholders in education.
South African parents are known for their passive roles in their children’s education and in support of this statement can be the 2012 textbooks saga in Limpopo. I do not remember seeing on television or hearing on radio any parents lodging a complaint to the Department of Basic Education or the Constitutional Court on why textbooks were not delivered on time. The only pictures that are vivid in my mind are those of the civil organisations such as Equal Education. But one may contend that maybe our parents are not as active in their children’s education owing to the fact that schools do not create the necessary spaces in which parents can be fully active members. But this reason is not compelling as we expect parents to take the initiative; the governing body meetings should not be the only time parents are present at the school. Parents should not only be present at the school when a child has failed the grade or when a child is caught with drugs—it should be a culture.
It is disheartening to see a tavern in our townships playing the music loud even when the lessons in the classrooms are progressing. It is disconcerting to hear of stories of community members who rob the school of its assets and sell them for peanuts. This to me and everyone else with interest in education is indicative of the fact that education is no longer a communal but rather an individual pursuit. I am sure if parents were playing an active role in the children’s education there wouldn’t be alarming rates of disciplinary problems in our schools because teachers and parents will collaborate to think of creative ways of controlling this distasteful behaviour by learners. I am sure if most of our parents were active in their children’s education there will be few learners who come to school with incomplete home-works or assignments. Yes, there are social pathologies such as child-headed families, HIV epidemic and poverty that one may blame this parental passiveness to in South Africa and these are serious issues but what happened to the saying that it takes a village to raise a child?
As a township boy, I do not remember seeing my parents coming to watch me play soccer or participate in other extra-curricular activities. Had they done so I am sure I would have progressed to a level unimaginable. The same can be said about parents of other learners in our schools who do not seem to play an active role in our education.
Bring in expert parents in your classrooms.
Teachers should acknowledge the fact that they do not master everything and this is where we can invite one parent who is the expert in the topic that a teacher is not comfortable with to present a lesson. This way parents feel acknowledged and appreciated. Parents who are experts in decorating can come to the classrooms to help us with the classroom decoration. Parents who are experts in curriculum planning can help the teacher and the school management with how to intensify the school’s academic programs; even though the department prescribes what should be taught at schools it does not prescribe how it should be taught.
Father helping son (7-9) with homework
Parents who know the savvies of finances can train the school management team in the areas of financial planning and management in order to sustain the school’s financial position. They can even help the school think of creative ways through which it can generate extra income for when the limited funds from the government try out. These are some of the ways that parents in our schools can play active roles for their children’s better future.
Involve parents in the “Letsemas”
In black communities we have what we call “Letsema” which is where all community members come together to help one another. In the school where I was employed as the substitute teacher, Lekhulong Secondary, our learners’ parents were invited to clean the school yards as well as premises and this initiative became so successful that most parents felt they could continue to work until cows came back. It is in initiatives such as this that parents can be active participants in the children’s’ education other than in the classrooms. The only way we can inculcate the spirit of pride in our schools is if parents and communities at large played active roles in these institutions that carry hopes of our great nation.”
@Tarpeys: I heard in the news this morning. Big ups to him.
He’s considerably younger than me…I was 9 years out of school when he played and captained Dale in his matric year, but crossed paths frequently during his 4 year stint playing for the 1st team. Humble young man and leads by example. At least he did at school. Commanded respect amongst his peers and a true gentleman.
I know there are sceptics, but I believe he will step up to the task.
@Tjoppa:
No problem! I will pick yours up when you contact me then
@RuggaZ: They were suppose to release the names of 50 players and it ended up to be 55. No explanations were given for being late and for adding 5 names. If they had been transparent, they would have given the reasons, but they were mum on these facts.
Thing is, with stories like this one, a journo need the issue from one person and then confirm it with someone else before it can go to print.
@Playa: as a Dale supporter, do you know anything about Tera Mthembu as a person? I see he’s just been announced as Sharks captain for the Currie Cup.
@Playa: I asked Beet for your contact details if Ok with you. He hesitated a bit fearing I may send some characters to visit you. But after some convincing he promised to send your details.
@Tjoppa: Primary schools and we divide them into zones according to area. We have 3 zones per township. We’d love to have more zones in Khayelitsha as it is a huge township, and we hope to in time as we grow resources.
When we started it was not necessary to service the ‘coloured’ areas as the clubs there ran their own thing. Different to black clubs where no junior structures exist, which pretty much explained why WP was not keen on supporting such a venture. I’m sure you know Gerald Njengele. He immediately kicked that idea out the door, and when we jumped him and went straight to SARU, we were re-directed back to him and that was the end of that.
@meadows: 100%
@Playa: At primary schools or clubs?
@Playa:
“The WC, being predominately coloured and the EC being predominantly black would have been the perfect platform to launch an effective transformation and development platform”
I agree – journalist Liz McGregor has written a few articles on the subject bemoaning the absence of an appropriately focused and funded transformation initiative in the Border/EC region through schools such as Dale that have;
– a majority of black pupils,
– a proud rugby culture and,
– are in a region in which rugby is the sport of choice in the community.
If my memory serves the analysis even identified issues like adequate nutrition as necessary to level the playing fields as well as the obvious ones like facilities and coaching.
To my mind that is how genuine transformation will be achieved in rugby. The fact that quotas or “guidelines” are still on the agenda is IMO a clear indictment of their effectiveness in achieving meaningful transformation and may even just be cynical window dressing by SARFU to give some credibility to their performance on the transformation mandate.
The requirement for quotas implies that merit selection would not currently achieve the same, or similar, end results, something that I don’t buy. Or perhaps it is felt that that the selectors are prejudiced.
But either way, given that probably only 3% of those picked for this group will make it to the senior pro ranks, we can be sure that anyone not chosen on merit for whatever reason is not going to make it.
@Tjoppa: I reside in Tableview, work in Rondebosch, and my rugby development activities are in Langa, Gugulethu and Khayelitsha.
Wasn’t sure what you meant by situated so I thought I’d cover all bases
@Playa: Were are u situated?
@Deon: I strongly agree with you. We need to be guided by the past and not pretend it did not happen. It’s the only way to find a way forward. Quotas are not the answer. They would be a great idea if everyone was on the same footing. So let’s rather focus on getting them there first. The numbers will come.
@Playa: My personal believe is that if we started picking the best players 100 years ago our rugby would have been significantly stronger and healthier than it is now.
But we did not, now we have to fix this, but I do not think a quota system makes sense. We wont achieve this goal very soon. Twenty years are a very short time.
Instead we have a history where the captain of the first rugby team “representing” South Africa on an overseas tour, stated that his team is called the Springboks. This same captain, Mr Paul Roos, also refused to play Devon since their team included a player of colour. What message did this bring to South Africans of colour?
Many will say we should forget the past and work towards a better future, and this may be at most only partly correct since the perception established by our predecessors is still with us. In many ways this perception is justified.
If all l races in SA were motivated to play rugby, consistently beating the All Blacks would probably not have posed such a hurdle at all.
Hell, we probably would have been called the All Blacks and NZ would have been called the Silver Ferns.
@Tjoppa: I’m happy with that, thank you. I’ll be in touch. :-)
@Playa: Agree but why must we bound to history and the past. I am willing to create financial support for your efforts at ground level. You must see that work gets done. How does that sound. Lets leave the past where it is. Take hands and make a difference.
@Tjoppa: Pick the best of course. Probably for different reasons to you. You want a winning team more than anything, I care more about the player who has the brand name ‘quota’ next to his name.
Do you agree with me that we are in an abnormal situation where for over 100 years the notion of picking the best was not practiced?
@Tjoppa: The arrogance was in respect of your name calling and insults directed at Tarpey, and not because you hold a certain view.
How do we resolve the absence of Black players?
That is where my disappointment in the demise of the Border Rugby Union lies. To some extent, EP included. But that was eased down by the re-emergence of them as Kings. The WC, being predominately coloured and the EC being predominantly black would have been the perfect platform to launch an effective transformation and development platform. But I am dreaming here, let me get back to reality and answer your question.
I’ll firstly disagree with you…THERE IS NO ABSENCE OF BLACK PLAYERS. The absence is at senior level. The average rural/township black kid will pick up a rugby ball for the first time at the age of 15, but he would have watched the game since he can remember.
To be frank, the unions (and SARU) need to stop f***ing around with children. You’re either in it or not. I have mentioned that I have a mate who now coached the Netherlands Under 17 rugby team. He worked for WP for a couple of years and left in frustration. I worked with him for years in the townships. SARU/WP at best gave us rugby balls. That’s it. We had drawn up a sustainable development plan starting at under 9 level…guess what they told us? They told us we need to focus on under 16 players. How realistic is that? What can you develop in a 16 year old? We even tried to influence some prominent business people to buy the Border “franchise” but red tape was an issue.
The problem was outlined earlier…the people at the top do not care, and are probably laughing (to the bank) reading these blogs. Divide and rule is not just a Nats & ANC concept, it exists in “private” institutions such as SARU. Do you honestly think there aren’t good coaches who are not willing to do the running around for development?
We can carry on about the different ways with which to get to the same conclusion, or we can agree that we’re in an unworkable situation. As long as we have politicians who speak ‘transformation’ as a campaign card, and we have a governing body like SARU who couldn’t be bothered….we will still be having this conversation in 20 years’ time while children (both black and white) carry on suffering.
It seems as if some folk are still wallowing in the depths of the past and feel the need to force this (quota’s) down kids throats to make themselves feel better about themselves. These “custodians” are no better than schoolyard bully’s in my opinion.
Being selected for SA Schools rugby team is not going to define how these boys turn out nor is it going to earn them a living, so let the bully’s have their place in the sun…..In time, the cream will always rise to the top, regardless of colour
I suppose the irony of this whole debate is that the schoolboys don’t see colour and just want to play and get on with it.
@beet: Beet I do respect you enough to stop this argument because it will only lead to further division. But you must make a decision that remarks to any part of our community must be done with the necessary respect and tact. If you allow one portion to show no respect the other will only retaliate in a worse manner.
@Playa: Agree once again.
That’s is why maybe the migration of guys from down south is not such a bad idea as this will bring more guys into the system as they cannot be all accommodated in the WC and EC structures at school level.
@Tjoppa:
In my own defence I’ve never called you racist.
I’ve defined your joke as a joke nothing more. It was a negative stereotype of race groups. It had to go.
With regards to Tarpeys, the topic of discussion is the quota system. We know it exists. Tarpeys did not invent the system. He is offering an opinion in favour of it. So I feel its within anyone’s right to argue that the quota system is racist but the reasons Tarpeys gives for supporting it doesn’t merit deletion of any of his comments on grounds of racism. But I accept that you are entitled to disagree.
I read above that Greenblooded, who’s own son had to experience the quota system first hand and who would IMO justifiably have reason to denounce it based solely on that waterpolo experience, is the one who said in his opinion black athletes are superior “generally speaking”. At a stretch I feel this is a positive stereotyping. If anyone else reading it is offended because its deemed racist in nature, I consider deleting it.
I’m far from perfect and have very little experience to fall back on as a guideline for this thread but I’ll continue to try my best to be objective.
@Playa: Pick them because they are PDI or because they are the best?
@MikeSt: That is the heart of my problem. This whole transformation issue should have been put to bed ages ago. But it was incorrectly implemented from the start. That’s why we still find ourselves having this discussion today.
I have lived in JHB, and I tell you, rugby was not an option. Though this was back in the 80s. Representation needs to be a realistic goal. I cannot expect the FS and Noordvaal to have anything close to the WC and EC unions in as far as representation at junior level is concerned. The numbers just don’t make sense. This is where the politicians and SARU miss the plot. I am all for growing the game, but it cannot be done everywhere. I cannot rock up with soccer balls and coaches in the winelands or the platteland and aim to grow soccer amongst the farmers’ sons. It won’t happen. Like any project, the first test is feasibility. That is the same challenge that the north faces. I guess that explains why the northern unions go shopping in the Cape. There is, however no excuse for senior representation because there is a lot of migration of players after school, and the Cape provinces cannot accommodate all school leavers.
@Playa: No I see it 100% as you do. I agree Apartheid was wrong. I agree that steps must be taken to adress previous wrongs. But we must do it in such a matter that we do not cause the country as a whole damage. We must sit down, leave emotion behind and discuss the road ahead to the benefit of the country.
Now it is to no race group’s advantage to force black players to compete on the same footing as white/coloured players at any competitive level which they are not capable of. They WILL feel as a failure and the rest will see them as BEE failures. They will never be accepted. You do see that I do not see coloured players as PDI’s as the are playing rugby from an early age and compete today on equal footing with any white boy regarding development, talent and exposure.
How do we resolve the absence of Black players? We build rugby fields in the townships. Get good coaching staff involved and start with the young ones. This is the only way real development will take place. In 10 – 15 years you will see a natural reflection of the community in representative teams.
Regarding your feeling of classism in rugby just the following. Have you ever visited the west of Pretoria where predominant white school struggle to field two teams per age group? Why because the parents see it as wasting time, because their chance to be noticed is close to zero thanks to quotas and their schools’s wealth and secondly because they can not afford the food, supplements and clothes to compete with the “better” schools. So the classism is affecting all poor people not only blacks. And unfortunately a lot more difficult to adress.
Lastly if you want to see me as arrogant it is a real shame because I think I am as passionate as you to see the Springboks win as you. I am shouting Beast as hard as you. I have the same feeling as you when a Cornal Hendricks perform like he did from nowhere. But I will not keep my mouth shut if a Black man makes a mistake in fear of being called a racist.
I care to much for my country.
I am quite sure you will find that in the Western Cape about 70% of those following rugby as their “primary” sport would be “coloured”.
@Playa: Me being unfortunately from the northern unions agree 100% in what you saying.
I however need to add the following:
1. I am aware that Northern Unions where rugby is not 10% as popular as in the EC / WC regions have for a number of years acknowledged that and have on numerous occasions made recommendations that this should be the areas for growth and transformation in the game. I have been told that there were recommendations on including additional teams from those areas and also to increase the quota nr’s in those provinces. None of these has happened.
2. Due to this and the lack if interest in the sport of rugby up in the NP we are now stuck in a situation where transformation has and will be an issue in the NP. We are in a situation where guys playing in there schools 3rd teams are forced to play fro CW teams.
My question on this is
Why has the love for the game not been developed up North?
and
What has SARU and the NP Unions and schools been doing since these guys entered schools in 2002 (current u18 group)
3. I am not against any form of development I am however against transformation 20 years later on the scale it is now been forced upon as its quite evident and apparent that the bragging rights SARU and the others are on about is not the true fact as we would not have been in a forced situation but rather on a merit situation of the millions that were spend has indeed been spend correctly.
4. I have attended a few of these so called development clinics. Its the biggest waste of time and money. How is development done? Definitely not by dishing out a t shirt and a cold-drink, throw around a few balls .
Development is done engaging and involving these guys in the game of rugby on a daily basis within the structures of schools rugby where they will be exposed to the skills and training that is on offer.
@beet: Sorry Beet, but this thread going in circles and thought trolling was a no-no
@Tjoppa: That’s a bit arrogant. You see things differently. Unfortunately (for you) Tarpey’s view is one shared by tons of black people, in varying degrees, myself included. It doesn’t help that a lot of people like you can only respond with insults. It only fuels the fire. I may not entirely agree with how Tarpey suggests we move forward, but I do not think it is realistically possible to disagree with the substance of his argument.
Fact is, the Bok team was chosen on a race basis for 100 years. It was never about the best players being on the field, but the best white players. There is a need to make it more representative and equalling the stakes.
On a tangent:
In the two biggest rugby playing provinces in the country, the Western and Eastern Cape, the majority of registered rugby players are black/coloured, and the most number of clubs are black/coloured clubs. The WC has the most rugby players in the country. I would like to rubbish the claims of 10% participation by people of colour. It may be 10% of the black population, by certainly NOT 10% of the rugby playing population. I will not thumb suck, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers are close to 50-50. The problem is structural. No gives a toot about grassroots rugby, and no one knows about it.
Tarpeys hits the nail on the head when he talks about the classism in rugby. Most people here are middle-upper class white people, who don’t even know that if you take a trip to the Khayelitsha Stadium on a Sunday morning/afternoon, you can catch 20 clubs playing 10 games with only 2 rugby balls in the Sunday league. The Eastern Capers can catch a similar feat in Ngqamakwhe or in the Grahamstown townships.
But as long as schoolboy rugby/Vodacom cup/Super rugby shows us only 10% participation by blacks, we believe that is gospel.
@beet:
1) My joke of the other day was exactly that. A joke. But it does also reflect the realities in the South African community. Calling the people in charge of rugby and all the PDI community lazy for not willing to take their hands out of their pockets and start working for what they believe in and want borderline? Excuse me then Beet then I am a racist. I have many a times spoken against token BEE which is the current norm in this lovely country of OURS. I have taken on Tuks because they are not willing to develop players of colour but only concentrate on the few coloured players needed to meet the Quotas set by the LAZY SARU bosses. I have spoken out against the schools and unions that uproot children from their homes just to meet quotas. I have spoken out against the people in charge who is too LAZY to go into the townships and start building a love for rugby. That is the only way we will see a representative side accepted and supported by all.
2) Secondly the opinion of Tarpeys is RACIST. To exclude any part of the community in an unfair manner due to his skin colour is racist. His believe that black people is physical superior, which is a joke, is racist. This opinion is equal to the joke I posted. Mine racist his acceptable? This is funny. You are welcome to discuss the views in the joke with the views of Tarpey’s and explain the difference.
3) ON POINTS 3 & 4 IF YOU ARE SINCERE ON YOUR OPINION PRACTISE WHAT YOU PREACH.
These are just rumours. Malicious rumours. Why are we so quick to latch onto them and take them as fact? SARU denies it but we would much rather believe that SARU is lying. Why? Is it because it gives you an easy excuse when your favourite player is excluded?
There were very few players that we felt didn’t deserve their place in the trails squad, so know why is there such an uproar when there are mere rumours of this quota nonsense? As Roux said himself, there are already plenty talented players of colour coming through that quotas aren’t needed.
Only the people who attended or watched the trials can have educated opinions on who is wrongly there and who deserves their spot in the final team. There are many ‘highly-rated’ platers who don’t perform in trials, and there are many underrated players who perform very well in trials.. You never know. We also don’t know what the coaches are looking for, or what attributes they are prioritizing.
All in all, everybody will never be happy with the 28 man squad. If you want to be sour about it, be sour. But this shouting quota thing is getting lame.
@Djou:
“The names of the 28 boys were scheduled to have been announced today. But because the info leaked out to the press, I guess their names will only be announced tomorrow or the day thereafter. And for purposes of spin doctoring, there might be 13 or 15 “quota players” instead of 14.”
The names for the extended training squad were scheduled to have been announced last week Monday, but was announced a day or two later. What is your conspiracy theory for that?
Just my two cents worth on the matter.
I don’t think any of us here want to see a player of any race disadvantaged in any way. My issue with the quota system is it’s aggressive and irrational approach to filling a specific criteria, not based on any real development by SARU prior to that quota selection. Its a lazy way of getting what you ultimately want without getting down to any real work. The black players who will make this 28 man team were not developed by SARU, they were all introduced to the game by someone who saw talent and an interest in them, and then fostered that talent in them. The quota system cannot take any credit for that. These players all go to schools where rugby is already a big deal and is taken seriously. The only thing the quota system has achieved is that it’s created an ‘us’ and ‘them’ mindset, which is exactly what you want to avoid. Ask any black rugby player what criteria he wants to make a team on and he’ll say on the ability he displays on the field, not his skin colour. If the game is developed by SARU at grassroots level believe me the ‘quota’ or race ratio of players will take care of itself during school and thereafter. I feel sorry for ALL the boys , of any race , for this awkward and tense situation that’s been created for them. My opinion on this SA schools side is that it could easily consist of 15 ‘quota’ players without them ever needing to be quotas in the first place. They all deserve it.
Old news to all of us, but still relevant today, perhaps even more relevant.
The great man said:
“Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire. It has the power to unite people in a way that little else does. It speaks to youth in a language they understand. Sport can create hope where once there was only despair. It is more powerful than government in breaking down racial barriers.”
It should unite us, and its more powerful than the government in breaking down racial barriers indeed.
The names of the 28 boys were scheduled to have been announced today. But because the info leaked out to the press, I guess their names will only be announced tomorrow or the day thereafter. And for purposes of spin doctoring, there might be 13 or 15 “quota players” instead of 14.
This is becoming ridiculous. Consider the matric pass rate. Some 1.2 million learners started 12 years ago of which only 34% passed matric and only 10% received university exemption. Compare this with 20 years ago when only 20% passed matric. So, in 20 years time the government managed to improve the pass rate by building new schools, appointing more teachers (and lowering the standards) and making schooling up to 15 compulsory. It was a process and still not there yet as the success rate is only 34%.
For transformation on the rugby fields to be successful, the same need to happen – government needs to work with SARU and SARU with the schools in order to provide and finance rugby facilities, rugby coaches and then also encourage learners (who in most cases don’t have sufficient food) to participate.
Is SARU incentivising any school (outside of the Eastern and Western Cape) to do development work? Ditto the government. I think they interpret Adam Smith’s invisible hand wrongly. Things don’t just happen.
But government wants quotas everywhere and as they admitted, will even sacrifice quality and excellence to achieve targets.
@Tjoppa:
1. your joke from the other day was racist and I tried to break that to you that in the nicest possible way because I did not think it was your intention. Your comments above about laziness are also very borderline but they may just be my opinion. No one has complained so the benefit of the doubt is yours.
2. I don’t believe that anything Tarpeys has posted here is racist. Yes some might be offended by his strong views. By offering his alternative opinion when he could well have chosen not to post anything, he’s helped to stimulate a debate about a real and sensitive issue. I’m actually really happy about the way we’ve stepped up and posted some very responsible comments on this thread. But if anyone including yourself feels Tarpeys has crossed the line please tell me exactly what it is that is offensive.
3. I believe I have expressed my position on the quota system in a couple of comments above where I’ve stated I have issues with it. But irrespective of my opinion on the matter, I’m not in the habit of censoring the views of others, so I don’t see the big hold up.
4. No! I remember explaining this to an American business consultant over 10 years ago and providing him with examples . Racism is definitely not restricted to white people only in this country nor should it ever be assumed that because a Saffa is white that he/she is racist.
I feel for those boys that won’t make the side due to this ridiculous system that is in place. The fullback from GW is up against the guy from EP, yes I believe that the chap from GW should be in the SA School side. But I will be surprised if he makes it ahead of the EP boy, especially if this report is correct. I know Hopper is going to go mad. It’s really sad to see and hear this, our kids don’t see colour. They bleed for each other on the sports field and become one when together at school. This will create division and more things like “Bokke Week” will develop, is that what we want. I don’t think so.
I can never condone, justify or support reverse racism in any sphere of life, including sport, but it would likewise be unrealistic, naive and to a certain extent disrespectful to ignore 50 years of institutionalized racism or to think that there should or would not be repercussions a mere 20 years after its demise. It’s a cliche, but for every action there is a reaction, in this case maybe a correction, and white South Africans should accept that they cannot control the length of the latter process. And that’s not being defeatist, just realistic.
@Tarpeys:
Players, selectors, sponsors, everyone involved in rugby, apart from the politicians benefit directly, in many ways, also financially, from winning. Even ethnic chauvinists realise this.
Therefore everyone selects to win. They select the best players according to their knowledge, regardless of race (in general) because these players increase the chance of victory.
If available, a black player will be selected if he is the best player available in his position.
The crux is availability. Quotas won’t address shortages of black players. It will only expose those people to rugby who had already been exposed to rugby. Makes no sense to “re-expose” don’t you agree?
Some other sort of intervention, probably development and exposure at say, primary school level is required, but in order for this to be successful there must also be a will/want among community members to participate in rugby rather than another sport. Without this will/want, which probably exists, this all may be like promoting jukskei in the townships.
And rugby really has made a lot of progress, and I think we can select a 50/50 SA Schools team in 2014 already without losing out on the “excellence requirement”. I think soon a 60/40 etc team, if you just consider the superb athleticism we witnessed last night in the sevens, Senatla for instance, just stunning!
Otherwise- “Around, around the garden, like a teddy bear, one step, two step, tickle him under there” At least some are enjoying themselves! Even if the “discussions” are going in circles
SOCIAL ENGINEERS, keep it simple. Appoint Commissars as “development officers”. Round up black people in cattle trucks, take them to rugby fields and whip them until they do not only play rugby, but also enjoy it.@meadows: Those schools dont produce any more black players than any other school. The majority of the learners in those schools, are now black and they are in a region where rugby is first choice for a large portion of those people- unlike other regions. But, of course, for those who are realistic enough to identify the true problems, will spell out the dangers and consequences ahead- even when these realities are not popular.
@beet: Just wondering how my jokes was unacceptable and you allow Tarpeys to talk this amount of racist shit. Maybe it is time to tell us all where exactly do you stand regarding quotas. Or can only white people be racists.
@Playa: The difference between you and Tarpeys is that you want to see real transformation and Tarpeys is in it for cheap sensation and does not care what the end result is as long as his immediate egoistic needs are fulfilled.
Before I let this rest. The interesting thing is this that the quota at Academy Week (some players from there go on to play CW the following year) is 50-50, and I stand to be corrected that’s it also 50-50 at Grant Khomo and 8-14(22) at Craven Week. Is it that ridiculous to expect the apex of all these tournaments to produce a result of 50-50 in an SA schools team?
Very strong views by bloggers on the subject of quotas. I have always been undecided on the matter. It’s an injustice to a Curwin Bosch to be labelled a quota selection, whilst he can hold his own on a rugby field. Remove quotas however, and there will always be an argument for a better white player, judged by the arguments of some bloggers above, so the Curwin Bosch’s of this world will disappear. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
@Tarpeys: No I am certainly not saying that rugby is for white people and should stay that way but I do question the effectiveness of top down quotas as a means to either;
– grow rugby’s support base to a significantly broader popular appeal, or,
– increase black participation in rugby which I believe is happening effectively in any event through the traditional model C schools and the the removal of the apartheid era restrictions on economic and physical mobility.
If government were serious about broadening rugby’s appeal outside of the traditional rugby schools then it needs to invest at grassroots in the kind of facilities and coaching available at those institutions. Or if it is just a numbers game channel funding through schools like Dale and Queens in the Eastern Cape that have a track record of producing black players.
Rugby does not enjoy the kind of broad based popular appeal that soccer does anywhere that I am aware of – maybe NZ come closest – and i am not sure why we think that it can do so here.
@Tarpeys: You see, that is the principle I believe in, and that is the principle the powers that be totally miss. In my view, you cannot have quota targets without transformation implementation. The truth of the matter is that there is not enough transformation going on to justify quotas. A goal without a plan is just a dream at the end of the day.
At a point where the transformation process stops being the farce that it currently is.
But I do not whole heartedly disagree with you points…and I don’t whole heartedly disagree with everyone who disagrees with you. I assume you are white. It is refreshing to get such a view from a person who completely takes off their own skin colour. I’ll be the first to admit that I myself find it hard to take mine off when discussing this topic.
P.S. May I request that we revert to the words “black” or “players of colour” instead of the politically correct PD/PDI. Politics will be the end of us
@Dave41: Dave 2 comments now, no attempt made to add value ???
@meadows: Are you saying that rugby is mainly for white people and government should leave it alone? Am I understanding you correctly?
@Tarpeys: Eeek. Just for the record it wasn’t me who said anything about laziness.
I have no doubt that quotas help kids who would not otherwise have received the opportunity but it’s really just a question of whether they deserved that opportunity or not. By rewarding quality over quantity, SA senior rugby will probably be better off. And there will be a better basis for determining if we are on the right track. For all we know quota is hiding a fact such as rugby actually dying instead of growing in certain regions that have become dependent on importing players.
I’ve said for a while now that I don’t believe that any school rugby player who has attended a good school where he has been exposed to the best coaching etc is disadvantaged irrespective of race. These kinds of players should be treated as equals especially if his parent/s are able to pay the school fees of a normal old style Model C school.
No one can run away from the fact that rugby conditioning has developed to a stage where money does matter.
Never argue with a fool because then there are two………
@ROOIBUL: In junior club rugby here in KZN – there have been clubs who utilised their own funds to transport kids from the townships to practice and back for MONTHS. When the money ran out, they approached the union for some of the transformation funds so that they could continue bringing the boys to practice (plenty of them who were keen as hell). The union were not interested – no money for that. That is TRUE TRANSFORMATION – but there was no money for it. There is only money for transformation when it comes to putting on a coaching clinic in a township where a few Sharks players muck in for an hour or 2 and there are nice opportunities to get photos for the newspaper for some hot shots and a few politicians.
@Tjoppa: Soccer is a game for everyone the world over. It’s the game of the ordinary man and very partisan in its nature not in negative manner but because it is simple in many respects and has no “snobbery” traits about it. White players were never and are not denied the opportunity to play the game. Rugby is a colonial game hence it’s very limited growth worldwide that has its roots in the upper middle class. Even in England, it’s mostly played by the affluent, traditionally. In South Africa, the same is true. I’m sure it’s the same in New Zealand, Australia and Argentina. It is one of our national sports that is why education and rugby go hand in hand in former British colonies. Since most of our top schools in SA were built by apartheid money (cheap black labour being the order of the day) that embraced rugby. These are still our top schools today and rugby remains synonymous with good education.
Will we see more white people playing soccer? Yes, not because they’ll be poor or less educated but because it’s a global game and we are part of the global community more and more white people support Premier league clubs and hold good soccer conversations. When my laaitie was at Michaelhouse, they had already started to embrace that reality by reducing the rugby season and lengthening the soccer season.
@Tjoppa: Just my opinion mate – you are welcome to disagree. We can start with the 100m sprint champion and work from there. Not sure when we will see another honky win that event. Not too great in water though – wonder why there is no quota system for swimming?
@Tarpeys: The people living in Nortern Natal are now very confused…….. Sarel Cilliers in Glencoe – Unofficial leauge winners over last ten years on average 21 black 2 white. Ladysmith the same. Newcastle 22 black 1 white ( sometimes). Vryheid landbou 20 black 3 white. Vryheid 20 black 5 white. Ferrum mostly white but couple black. Pionier mostly white but only plays against Ferrum.
Surely this means Durban schools must send more wit okes to northern natal (on their cost) so that we can also become 50/50 ?
@Tarpeys: I think that the introduction of quotas may well have played a role in undermining some of the prejudices that were entrenched in the traditional rugby establishment. If the objective of quotas was to contribute to the elimination of prejudice then I believe that it has largely succeeded. Unfortunately you will never eradicate prejudice completely and I have no doubt that in private prejudicial views about the ability of black, or even boys from private schools, to play rugby are still held but, perhaps naively, think that this is the exception rather than the norm in 2014.
If however, the objective of quotas was to somehow engineer an increase in the popularity of rugby within a wider support base i.e. the “population at large” then, notwithstanding the imagined commercial merits, it is a misguided exercise in the absence of significant investment in grassroots resources, facilities and development.
Rugby is not our national sport and nor is it a sport that is followed by a significant proportion of the population at large, far from it. There are about 280 000 boys out of an estimated 5 million males between the ages of 10-19 playing rugby in SA with a further 140 000 senior players (420 000 in total). By comparison soccer has an estimated 4.5 million players of whom around 1.5 million are registered. In a population of 53 million, 16 million of whom apparently support Kaizer Chiefs, rugby remains the preferred sport of a group of people who come through schools that play rugby as their primary winter sport. I suspect that the support base demographics for rugby in SA in the context of the population at large are not that dissimilar to many other countries in the world. I don’t believe that this is good or bad – it is simply a fact that is a function of the reality that the population at large is not an homogeneous mass. What is undoubtedly happening is that increasing numbers of young black men are being introduced to rugby by attending “traditional rugby schools” around the country.
I’m not sure why sports teams should need to reflect society at large. Aptitude for a sport is a function of a range of contributory factors including physical attributes, environment and IMO a cultural predisposition provided by family, peer group and educational influence. In concert these factors are the reason why, to use an example removed from rugby, a country like Austria, has won twice as many Olympic gold medals in alpine skiing as their nearest rival.
In my opinion any attempt to impose a requirement for (any) national sports teams to reflect the demographics of the population at large is misguided social engineering.
If a player makes a team totally on merit, we accept it. We the white rugby public love it, if any player does well in any team. His colour does not matter, we love it.
My question is; how much money did the Government or SARU invested in PD kids sins they started with transformation. Most PD kids coming through the ranks on merit not just happened, especially in areas like the old Transvaal where there are schools that recognised their talent and gave them an opportunity. SARU cannot start with transformation on 0/18 level, it’s shocking. Did SARU supported any of this PD kids (14) from a young age that they selected for the 0/18 SA team.
The 0/18 schools team has an excellent record, will it stay that way???????
What about a player that didn’t play 0/16 because of a big injury that kept him out of the game for more than a year????????
@Tarpeys: No I want to see the Springboks be the no1 team in the world. I want to see every South African to develop to his maximum. I want to see our population be able to choose what sport they want to excel in. I want to see a South Africa where the colour of your skin, bank account or status does not serve as stumbling blocks in your development. That is what I want to see, apart from cheaper whisky and nice nursies.
Just one question do you then see soccer as the sport for poor, uneducated people only played in the townships. Because you insist the increase in a black educated population to a higher number of black springboks. Interesting so what you predict is a more representative soccer team as soon as there are enough uneducated poor white people.
@GreenBlooded: Superior athletes? Really? Where do you get that from? Care to explain?
@Tjoppa: Tjoppa. Tjoppa. What on earth makes you think I’m black. We need to get over the fact of seeing less white Springboks in the future. Does the thought of having to support a majority black springbok team repulse you that much. Black people love rugby and with the help of quotas and the rise in the black middle class more and black players will wear the green and gold. What you see now is still a reflection of the unequal distribution of wealth and resources. Once that is achieved there will be no need for quotas and that will be done through education.
@ Beet, I’m all for excellence but the life conditions are still tilted far towards white players as far as making it in rugby is concerned. It not about being lazy, black people aren’t lazy. It’s about the background that most people come from which is poorer than the average white person in South Africa because of our past. Quotas help black boys to compete.
@Tarpeys: I’m all over that – and that’s where the focus needs to be, on recruiting black players into the game!! Winning black sportsman over from their traditional soccer culture is where the focus needs to be – not by inserting them into representative teams in a completely dis-proportionate ratio. Once they represent a significant proportion of the rugby playing population, you will find there will be no need for quotas. I believe that black okes are superior athletes generally speaking – so once they become a significant part of the rugby playing population they will make the sides on natural ability.
10% – in club rugby probably less. I really don’t know – but for sure these figures are very well known by the transformation fella’s in the unions. Whatever it is – it is nowhere near the same proportion as the population demographic.
@Tarpeys: You are 100% RIGHT BUT HOW LONG IS YOUR LONG RUN. You have had 20 years and what did you achieve. A handfull of deserved black Boks and the rest the laughing stock of the world. You, with that I include all the PDI people in this country, who are still waiting for the stoves to fall from heaven, or was it fridges, must wake up and smell the roses.
You are detracting from the overall opinion of black people who actually perform in the world out there. You are only interested in window dressing to make you feel better.
Rather roll up your sleeves and start working you lazy bum. The only way you will start to DEVELOP the love for rugby in the black community is to give your children exposure. Let them play rugby from an early age. But shit that will require you to go into the townships, build fields and coach. And I will bet you are to lazy for this. It is easier to force with quotas the “white” population to develop only a few.
@Tarpeys: The problem with your argument is that when numbers are reserved for whom ever it causes division.
We need to increase the rugby cake and the only way we can do that is to increase the amount of the ingrediants. You cannot increase a cake by having the same ingredients but changing the amounts of the ingredients of the recipe for the cake. If your recipe dictates so much milk and you increase the milk and not the rest of the ingredient in proportion, you will not have what you set out to bake although you might have a cake. It will be a different cake and taste differently.
That is what quotas do to rugby.
@Tarpeys: Having been around this blog for quite a while this is most stupid posting I have ever seen or come across. I am not going to argue or discuss a issue of color but do think i need to respond to this ignorance……..
“There’s a miss conception I think out there that black people love soccer because they are black and it’s like genetic thing. ”
Who ever had or created that perception can only be you as this was never an issue or perception.
All of the boys playing U18 now have been post apartheid borne. After 20 years of democracy there should not be any quota system anymore if the government of this country did what they were suppose to do and that is develop young talent.
Again all of these boys would have been n Grade 1 in 2002. Quite a number of years after democracy and the development of young talent.
I attended the trials and yes there was some excellent boys there across all races and u can assure you that a number of them will walk into any team based on merit and not quota.
“Your race has nothing to do with the sport you like.’
Once again maybe an statement of illusion…….or disillusion
“White people have no inherent right to be included in teams.”
Who ever stated that once again? Dont you maybe think that the same applies to game of soccer??????? No race has the inherent right to anything is this world in any case…………..
“It’s not forcing, it’s exposing them to rugby.”
There parents and schools they attend should have exposed all of the players since Grade 1 being the year 2002……
@Tarpeys: When the issue of quotas in sport became relevant, I was very much for it. In addition to a way of establishing demographically “correct” sport teams representing SA , I reasoned quotas were a good way at “paybacking” some bigots-very selfish of me in retrospect, I have to admit, and also cruel towards deserving boys who would lose out.
Soon I realised that the will to have your team be victorious triumphed the bigots’ intention in the end. There are more than enough selectors selecting players to win, regardless of race, to completely cancel out those whose selections are based on bigotry.
The players of colour going to Afrikaans schools you mention, well, many of them are recruited, but not because of their race, because they happen to be excellent athletes and can help the particular school win more rugby games. Educate yourself in this regard, like I did, with great effort. Best example I know of : Garsfontein. Have a look at players at their “Cape Imports”. Regardless of how much I detest aggressive recruiting practises, I was forced to admit that those “PD” boys AND THEIR FAMILIES , had become part and parcel of the school community, even though their families live about 1500 km away. Schoolkids support them fanatically, not because they help the school meet some fat politician’s quota requirement, but because they are match winners and friends.
Quotas made sense initially, but the human will to win negated whatever merit there was in quotas.
@Tarpeys: That is a sizable chip you are carrying around with you.
@GreenBlooded: There’s a miss conception I think out there that black people love soccer because they are black and it’s like genetic thing. Your race has nothing to do with the sport you like. It’s all about exposure.if your dad played soccer because the apartheid government did not allow him to play anything else then of course you’ll play soccer because that’s what you grew up watching and playing and the same is true with rugby. If you think about more rationally than emotionally, the spinoffs of increasing the pool of talent in South Africa by promoting black people to join the ranks (by unfortunate means maybe) can only benefit SA rugby in the long run. Yes it might mean less opportunities for white people but so be it. It will just mean that the really really good white players will out do the other white players to get into these teams. White people have no inherent right to be included in teams. Is the total amount of black players really 10%? I doubt it.
It’s not forcing, it’s exposing them to rugby.
My goodness me- and all these “political discussions” and “negativity”? Or did you think that if and when these issues are ignored or avoided, that they would simply disappear? That the liers of SARU would somehow be overcome by compassion for those who are willing to compromise on principle and be “positive”? SARU lies unashamedly- they have NO shame. Mention is made here of “PDI”.Can we be given details of a person of “colour” who was disadvantaged in the last 20 yrs? Only the “govt” can be responsible.
@Tjoppa: “Ons identifiseer die skolegroep reeds by die nasionale o.16-week en hoewel daar mettertyd enkele spelers bykom en wegval, bly die kern van die groep dieselfde,” het Roux gesê.
What a load of crap ! Only 20 of the 55 players was part of the 2012 / 2013 u/16 HP groups. If this is true, shouldn’t it at least be double that ?
I know some boys from the 2012 group who has never heard from SARU again after the National week. All sorts of promises and monitoring plans were made, but nothing came of this.
@Tarpeys: I just worry that some sort of social responsibility is replacing the pursuit of excellence.
I’m not so sure the unions are actually sponsoring anything of note with regards to schooling. Sure unions are partnering with schools by identify talented PDIs through various mechanisms but the schools fit the bill. The schools seem happy to do this for 2 reasons : hopes of better rugby results with the injection of better players and better marketing if/when their players make the age group provincial teams – so here quota does create a spinoff that helps kids get better opportunities. But at the end of the day many of these same kids lose out to kids from the W/Cape and E/Cape after school anyway, so perhaps the only thing being gained is a creation of a culture for rugby amongst non-traditional rugby communities rather than good long term players.
Affirmative action in the workplace has led to a growing middle class for that population group. More income means the new middle class can provide their kids with better educational opportunities by enrolling them at better schools where they are exposed to rugby. So to me it would seem that economics is helping the merging of society and even the transformation in rugby along but perhaps not at the desirable pace to please politicians.
The problem I have with quotas is that although their primary objective may be to encourage/speed up transformation, they’ve become a distortion of reality. You no longer have a true measuring stick of actual progress/improvement eg was 10% 5 years back now 15%. It also creates a new inequality – players who are not the best in their positions are afforded opportunities while those that are the best in those positions are denied opportunities. If Craven Week and SA Schools selections become based on merit selection like just like school 1st XV rugby, those who are tasked with overseeing transformation in rugby would get a far better idea of where the challenges lie and the progress being made and where an acceptable level actually lies – somewhere far below 50% for now I’m sure.
The only regional where I’ve heard bloggers say that their Craven Week team is based on merit is Western Province. I can’t help but believe that most other regions would field stronger teams if quotas were dropped.
I guess the flipside of the debate is the answer to where would the genuinely good “black” senior rugby players of today be if quotas had not been around.
Also something I mentioned above touches on an important challenge facing rugby amongst poorer communities – today unlike 20 years ago, you need money to succeed at rugby. Unless a player is a scrumhalf or maybe a fast wing, chances are he won’t get far without funding to help him get bigger and stronger. Quota helps to overcome this challenge for sure. The redistribution of talented E/Cape and W/Cape players to well-off schools around the country means these kids are given a a better chance to succeed at school and after school
@Tarpeys: I wanted to be funny or sarcastic. But all I could think to respond was “Klontkop”.
@Tarpeys: Yes – but rugby teams need to reflect ‘rugby society’ not national society. If 10% of the number of registered players in the country/province are black then yes – ideally 10% of the representative team must be black. If the vast majority of the black population are soccer loving people, we cannot force them to play rugger. Asking for a 50% non-white representation in a national schools team where only 10% (and this is just a thumbsuck figure) of schoolboy rugby players are non-white then that just goes against the law of averages.
@GCollege86: 50/50 sounds about right. After all the truely challenging decisions that our officials face are…. Johnny Blue or Moet and how to tackle the smorgasbord , so no time for real grass roots development.
Correct decision. Knowing a few people in the coaching circles, this decision is correct. I agree with quotas. With the introduction of quotas one of the things that has happened is the increased number of black and coloured kids going to former Afrikaans school mostly sponsored by the unions. Black and white kids need to play together to build a multi racial society. Rugby is our national sport and needs to take the lead. The reason why black players are coming through at such a rate now is because provinces have been forced to advance black talent. We need to see black and white parents in the stands supporting the same team. We cannot take the lead from other countries because this is a uniquely South African problem.
Rugby needs to reflect society and it make commercial senseas we’ll.
Braced for a massive backlash
In terms of the country’s Constitution, there is no difference between a male and female as all are the same.
I expect the amalgamation of the men and womens rugby teams shortly. There will be a period of transition and the team will consist of 15 men and 15 women. The world will understand that SA will field 30 players because it is a transition period as we are very progressive. After the transition period the team will comprise 8 female players and 7 male as 52% of the total population are
females. The rugby powers will not be prescriptive as to who should play where but if 5 women are forwards then 4 men must be backs or the other way round!
There will be no distinction with regards change rooms as there is no need.
All these rules, that are not rules according to SARU, will be explained at a rugby gala evening with hosts the Department of Statistics!
Rugby should be administered by rugby people as they understand the game the best!
@RBugger: Yurik Thamberin of Westville.Lock/flank – Grant Khomo 2012 and final trials for CW this year. Plays for Collegians in the club competition.Seriously talented.
I happened to play with a Mr.Govender at Berea Rovers in 1984. He got the shyte kicked out of him but came back for more. Voted player of the season at our annual dinner. Don’t know what happened to him but am sure that he has fond memories of that year.
When will the squad be announced ?
@GreenBlooded: This happened last year at Border Waterpolo trials in my sons age group:
Boys got invited to trials. Border had to have 2 PD in side. 4 non white players rock up at trials and all got selected for A and B team (2 per team) but the farther of the one, lets call him John refuses that his son is registered as a PD player. On merit John was probably one of the top 5 water polo players in Border and was one of the top players the previous year at SA’s.
John then gets demoted from A to the B team as a merit player. The boy who gets selected in John’s place in the A team don’t even play for his school’s A team. Afterwords it was explained they did it to get the selection spread amongst schools right.
John and his parents have since moved to NZ. I informed Border Waterpolo that my son wont be participating in Border water polo trials this year.
@BuffelsCM: I think these people do not know what is going on at school boy rugby at all. They do not know that certain schools control the majority positions for CW selection. They know nothing about “agents” promising places at cw to their preferred children. Also they do not know provinces promising places in CW. What do they know. Mind you do they actually care?
I think it is only fair to have a minimum of at least 7 Indian Players in the SA Schools Side
Even in the Durbna area, you will be hard pressed to find even 1 Indian playing first xv rugby, if playing at all.
We have enough players of colour who are good enough to make it – quotas must go now
@Mike: I totally agree with you.
@Tjoppa: Tjoppa I have read those comments of Jurie Roux too. That is really laughable (it is actually much worse). Obviously I can’t mention names but quite a number of forwards in WP’s GK team of last year (first choice players I may add) did not make any of the 2 “senior” teams this year. Players from outside the group of 2013 were picked…………and they were in the Western Province last year but were considered not good enough. They were not “a flash in the pan” as described by Jurie Roux but have shown why they should be picked.
Roux has really not done himself any favours with those stupid comments.
@vatikaki: @beet: Like I said what do they care their salaries are paid. Maybe their salaries must also be performance, on the field, based. I think even Jacob Zuma will look good next to these farts.
the boys of colour can compete on an even keel with the currently disadvantaged boys.. I could pick a team that would be very competitive and would go as far as saying win more times than not. One must just make sure that they are of correct age which has been a huge problem in the past.
The one thing they got wrong this year wasn’t the colour issue but they did not include the boys that deserved it. There were glaring omissions IMHO.
Jantjies and Ward spring to mind.
@Tjoppa: That is really pathetic.
For rugby the longer you can keep the net out there the better the chances are of catching the really big fish.
Even in rugby in the thee years after school I think so much more should be done to keep youngsters interested and playing on a large scale to make sure someone destined for greatness does not slip through the cracks
@Tjoppa:
Iesh that is really really stupid if he did say that.
Soooooo many players who wouldn’t have been clear stand-outs at U16 level, but by the time they are in matric they might be the best schools player in their position.
But I suppose it’s one of those “what do you expect” moments when you put businessmen in charge of a sport they don’t have a feel for, and expect them to improve it.
Maybe one-day we can get some competent people in at SARU and actually do what should have happened long ago – become clearly the best rugby nation in world rugby ahead of New Zealand.
Played MUST BE PICKED ON MERIT!!!!!
No surprise really. It is done in all other representative age-group sports. As some post elude, quotas is starting to become a devisive policy more than an inclusive one.
Perhaps they should apply 50/50 quotas to the “administrators” aswell. 8)
What is even more interesting is this part of SARU’s statement and I quote
Rapport.
“Jurie Roux, Saru se uitvoerende hoof, het vroeër die afgelope week volgehou die keurproses is “lank en weldeurdag”.
“Ons identifiseer die skolegroep reeds by die nasionale o.16-week en hoewel daar mettertyd enkele spelers bykom en wegval, bly die kern van die groep dieselfde,” het Roux gesê.
“Die dae van ’n flash in the pan-speler van wie ons nie voorheen bewus was nie, maar wat in die Cravenweek beïndruk en dan gekies word, is verby.”
In short boys who did not form part of the u/16 GK squad pick will have a very slim chance to being picked for SA Schools. It will not help even if you stand out during CW. So now SARU is picking the Springboks at U/16 level?
Who are the farts handling schoolboy rugby? This explains a lot why SARU is the laughing stock of the world and its own people. A lot of idiots are doing the “thinking”. Rugby was run 100% better as an amateur sport than today. No leadership just a lot of farts filling their pockets while it last.
@GreenBlooded:
So just like how our Springbok side supposedly doesn’t have quotas, but there was a rumor about a 33% benchmark. And every time a Springbok side is announced, exactly 33.3333333…. of the players are ‘PDI’.
Bunch of idiots in government.
@Mike: @kwartlyn: Indeed!! There are many players of colour who are deserving of selection purely on merit but are tainted with the ‘quota player’ tag which is totally unfair.
Only 50%, I reckon about 60% could be on merit, now labelled….disgusting….
I really hope SARU did not instruct such a thing, and this is just a malicious rumour. Absolutely no need.
@kwartlyn: The greater majority of those 14 players or however many would have made it anyway and deserve it fully. Pity SARU will put all these players in the same bracket now. Takes away from a massive honour and achievement for them.
@Mike: Stem 100% saam met jou wat n klap is dit nie, al die seuns is in 1996 gebore in die nuwe SA ek kan jou verseker dat die jong seuns geen kleur sien nie hulle wil net rugby speel. Dit is net jammer dat saru meer met die politiek speel as om na die rugbyspelers om te sien. Glo my dit is die begin van die einde vir rugby soos ons dit ken.
@Deon: What a slap in the face to the players of colour that would have made it anyway.
@kcob: But of course they do! It’s one of those Orwellian doublespeak things – like everything else…….
Saru denies it!
http://m.news24.com/sport24/Rugby/SARU-denies-quota-instruction-20140727
@Deon:I really have no problem if the whole SA schools team is of colour. For me it is about the team.
However what makes me annoyed is the fact that the powers that be want to manipulate a team’s composition. Team members that are included in this way feel the pressure on them. This I feel is unfair on the individuals.
With this sort of inteference we could very well have a team that might nit have the selfbelief in themselves
@GreenBlooded: Weird thing is that in many years PD boys can make up AT LEAST 50% of this squad based on talent and performance alone, not race. Most followers will welcome this. No need for the “Trotskyists” to interfere. PD boys fight their own way into sides and if any one of the “Trotskyists” would care to follow blogs like these they will learn that most sbr supporters forgot about race long ago.
Wrt the waterpolo issue: What a sad farce!
@Deon: My lighty went to KZN waterpolo trials last year. A quota of 4 pdi’s had to be chosen – exactly 4 pitched for trials and were duely selected by default. I hope they had lifeguards on duty cos the one boy could hardly swim never mind tread water or handle the ball with one hand.
Johannesburg – At least half of the SA Schools rugby squad will feature players of colour in a move to implement quotas at schools level for the first time, according to Rapport on Sunday.
The newspaper said the SA Rugby Union (SARU) had instructed 14 of the 28 member team be drawn from black, coloured or Indian players.
According to sources, it would be the first time quotas were officially enforced at schools level.
The news comes after the SA School trials were held in Kempton Park on Saturday, where 55 school rugby players were competing for the 28 spots in the team.
South Africa are scheduled to play Under-18 teams from England in Stellenbosch, France in Cape Town and Wales in George, during August.