Here is the link to a real good article on the website www.saschoolsports.co.za entitled Rugby: Border Schools- Fair Poaching Game?
http://www.saschoolsports.co.za/rugby/the-eastern-cape/rugby-border-schools-fair-poaching-game.html
It talks about something that has been brought up quite a few times on this website:
A “Northern franchise” uses financial incentives to get players of colour to leave their Border regional schools (Western Cape schools are also affected by this). Previously we all believed that these boys would go to schools in the “Northern franchise” region. The motivation was to ensure that the youngsters were eligible for selection to the various provincial age-group youth week teams of that Northern region. The new players would help fulfil the strict quota requirements that are in place and the age-group teams would remain very competitive as a result of these “imports”. The development of local players does not seem to be producing enough suitably talented players for the “Northern franchise” to obtain their desired results on the school rugby field.
There is however a new twist. The article talks about the involvement of a KZN school in the process. So to make it clear, we now have a situation in which it’s portrayed that the “Northern franchise” is doing business with a KZN school. Although not mentioned in the piece, there might even be more than one KZN school involved dealings with the “Northern franchise” to bring players of colour to their schools. Obviously there is a benefit to any school team that is able to acquire a quality rugby player so perhaps the small question concerning these KZN schools is why are they now doing business with the “Northern franchise”?
The BIG question is why is the “Northern franchise” doing business with KZN schools?
@Bonthuis: I have no idea, usually lower income single parent families in cheaper accommodation, has always been that way, hence to tough kids coming from there…
@Grasshopper: Umbilo – who’s still living there??
Hey all. Here is a link to the Kearsney Policy on Drugs (incl performance enhancing) rather a good read. I know my son has been randomly tested…
http://www.kearsney.com/files/MiscWebDocs/Policies/kcdrugpolicymay2013.pdf
Great to see Glenwood Old Boy Cody Chetty & Westville Old Boy Khaya Zondo smashing the Cobra’s all over the park in a great partnership!
@Oldie: agreed, the 90’s was the worst decade for rugby at Glenwood, now 13 years later it’s been our best decade. Wheels turn all the time…
@Gungets: I actually don’t have any children at Northwood or DHS, but most of my friends children are at these 2 schools. Not too sure of the “collateral damage”, but have a suspicion. I have heard lots of great things about the new principal, as well as the new boarder master at Northwood – but only time will tell.
I think Bashford will do well, as he has the talent this year and he is a good coach. DHS now just need to get their act together as well.
As with everything, the wheel turns. Those on top today might not be there in 10 years time, but those on the bottom must take care not to slip further.
@ GT- and I thought that Westville was your second favourite
Is your boy playing sport tomorrow against said school?
The issue of community buy in and support is an interesting one. It is a well known fact that people buy in Westville for the schooling. Their biggest investment is indirectly linked to the success of the schools and therefore the loyalty is undeniable. I do not think the same can be said about D/N. The same principal applies to DHSP and the link to DHS. 90 % of parents do not send their kids to DPHS because it is a preparatory school to DHS.WSPS is the complete opposite. Communities must have this deep rooted attitude and loyalty which cannot be brought easily.
@Oldie: As for the Sharks and what they do and don’t do, you have clearly not got the gist of it. Not going to rehash it here, it’s exhausting.
Perhaps Beet has it in him to put the whole thing into a single blog …
@Oldie: Nothing would please me more than to be wrong about Northwood and their recruiting. After College, Northwood has my support.
I have seen some stats about applications for admission from the Durban North community, they are down. Glenwood, Westville, Clifton and .. College .. have had record applications from schools like Northlands and Chelsea, which is not a good sign. I just suspect that there is some work to be done regaining the full support of your Durban North constituency. But, if not, great. I think Bashie and Simon are great for your school, but I hear there has been some other collateral damage which has robbed you of a committed and dedicated member of staff that Northwood are going to miss a great deal. All just my opinion, I wish Northwood all the best.
Hmmm….reading this reminds me of the saying that those who stay in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Seems to be a case of “now that we’ve got the players we needed, have become successful and can attract quality boys, let’s make a rule stopping everyone from doing what we did”.
Unfortunately, sport sells a school. A certain private school recruited shamelessly in it’s quest to become the no.1 water polo school and now they have all the top polo players wanting to go there. Another did the same with swimming and another with rugby. All have been successful.
I have no problem with DHS’s recruitment strategy, except that the EC boys (who are normally bigger in GR7) tend to be small and fade by Gr10. While some parents at DHS may be a little despondent at times, the bulk of those I have spoken to are upbeat and looking forward to the next few years (especially with water polo). This was not a great rugby year and things are unlikely to improve significantly in the next few years, unless some recruitment is done. No-one likes being hammered week in and week out (players or spectators).
I say well done to Northwood. IMHO, GT has it wrong when he says the recruitment of this year will bite them. I am friendly with a number of Northwood parents and all were unanimous that without the recruitment done, they would be in the same boat as DHS. They barely managed to field a 2nd team most times, so imagine if they had done nothing. I think that, had Swys stayed, there could have been quite a few upsets.
As for the Sharks, I am confused as to how some bloggers condemn them for doing things and then say that it’s because they did nothing that the Bulls are forging a relationship. Hmmm…..
@star: Sadly, to me (some of us dumb f’s are idealistic), you are right. It isn’t going away and currently isn’t managed at all, other than certain schools being more vigilant about preserving their ethos and value system, and it creates some what of a moral dilemma (for want of a better phrase), however, good for KZN that we at least have the HMA. GT is right, the HMA needs to be properly enforced without skirting around the edges of it.
@beet:
I think Saban is the highest paid College coach.
The rules are strict but there are ways that they get around the system – cars for parents etc. There was some controversy in Miami recently around illegal donations to players.
I like the academic requirement.
@meadows: The coaches are well paid. Nick Saban had actually left College football, struggled at Miami Dolphins and went back to College football at Alabama must surely be the best paid of the lot as his success would warrant it.
The universities also benefit tremendously with the football programme being a significant contributor to the budget via TV revenues.
Altho coaches are paid and the universities make lots of money out of it, there are strict rules in place that disallow the players from even receiving gifts of the smallest kind. Therefore there is no question about the status of the players. They are 100% amateurs. At some reputable colleges, athletes also have to keep their grades up to be eligible for selection. It’s interesting that the Sharks also build this academic achievement requirement into their junior contracts.
@meadows: MADNESS!!!
@meadows:
The highest paid College football coach would be in the top 10 earners at NFL coaching level. Top NFL coach Bill Belichick of the NE Patriots “only” earns $7.5m.
@meadows: “dog eat dog”
@Playa:
@Gungets Tuft:
College football takes shamateurism a new level – it is certainly dod eat dog but there are the odd busts and sanctions.
To put the money in College Football into perspective the top 10 College coaches all earn between $3.5 – 5.5 million per annum. There are probably another 20 earning $2.5m
@Gungets Tuft: Key features as I recall them are;
Pro franchise with the worst record gets first pick of the draft.
A franchise can contract or trade a player that they are eligible to pick.
Draftees have to be out of high school for three years.
I was once told that a player does not have to come out of the College system to be drafted but practically i can’t see how that would ever work.
I’m not sure of the numbers but college football is probably as popular as the NFL. Of the top 20 capacity football stadiums in the US 17 are the home grounds of College teams. The only NFL side in the top 10 is the Cowboys (3rd). All of them seat between 85-110 000.
@Gungets Tuft: Yeah I guess there’s a way around any law.What’s important is the framework & governance, and harsh consequences (whatever that’ll be) for those who are caught.
The real dog-eat-dog world in US sports is at college (varsity) level. Where what we see going on in SBR here in SA happens there, but on steroids. I reckon not much trading goes on at high school level because they do not have the boarding establishment culture that exists in SA. So unless the club/college is willing to relocate the whole family (which does happen) while the kid completes high school in the new chosen school, there isn’t much movement.Also, with experience and the realisation that what you are in high school is not necessarily what you’ll be after school, clubs have shied away from investing too soon in talented kids.It’s a different ball game to what we have here.Read up on it.
@Playa: I agree that they should not be able to contract them, but just because it is openly banned does not mean it will not happen behind the scenes. There are so many ways of getting around it. A draft system could get around this, because everything is on the table once a year.
Of course that takes (I think??) player preference out of it, such as a player who is happy to earn 1/2 but stay close to home ..
Going to have to read up on the draft and how it works, but can bet it will not carry the sort of provincial/school loyalty we have.
@Gungets Tuft:
Ja hey!Such is life.It is what it is.
In 5-10 years, you’ll have schools that conform, and schools that don’t, playing in separate leagues, or else the playing field will just get ever more uneven, sucking the fun out of it for the boys, and sucking the life out of schools that are not in that elite league.Or maybe, this is just sceptical me speaking and this is actually for the good of SBR and rugby as a whole
either way it’s happening and there’s more.
Ja, well, no, fine. Just keep this thread open, we haven’t heard the last of player moves. As they say in the Verimark adverts .. ” but wait, that’s not all, there’s more”.
@Gungets Tuft: @beet: Wouldn’t you say Dale has fallen off the pace (though I disagree – have a look at results between 2008-2013 for example) as a result of having being targeted more than any of the other schools?This dates back to 1996 when WP placed Gcobani Bobo at Rondebosch in the middle of his Std 9 year.The current Border policy did not exist then.This has happened steadily over the years, with the Lions and Bulls being the biggest grabbers
Yeah Border are not doing the Border schools any favours with their policies, but the schools, which have nothing to do with it are the biggest losers, and there is unfortunately nothing that they can do to stop it.
Fair enough, we are now in 2013, and the status quo exists. To sound like a broken record, the problem exists because we have allowed kids to be contracted by unions while still at school…something which in my belief should be outlawed.
I totally support the US draft system as outlined by Meadows above. This policy is applied in basketball, football, hockey and baseball in the US. We could learn from this in SA Rugby, especially SBR.
@Gungets Tuft: I think Border schools have to take a few to the chin and certainly Dale, like DHS has fallen a bit off the pace and needs to catch up quickly. Selborne and Queens remain very good schools who more than hold their own against cross-border compo.
The Border Craven Week problem from 2012 was the result of union interference in the running of school rugby. At some level you have to be able to relate to this and sympathise with the schools. Funnily enough that decision to omit boys who had signed with other unions provide an opportunity for the Bulls to move in and take advantage of the situation (in the case of Fortuin). Importantly the Border RU problem is in the past.
Hopefully we don’t ever experience the same problem in KZN with CW places being reserved for Sharks Academy bound players.
@Gungets Tuft: I think that SA should have looked closely at the structure of the NFL with the advent of pro rugby.
It would be impossible to reorganise now but there are glaring flaws in the U19 and U21 Currie Cup systems.
The most obvious (and detrimental) IMO is that they are full time pros from the age of 19 and the majority will find it very difficult to complete any meaningful tertiary education between the ages of 19-21 by which time over 80% will have fallen by the wayside as far as pro rugby is concerned.
Another bizarre feature is that it only kicks off in mid July with the league stage over by mid October.
I have long thought that an amateur “College” period from 19-21 followed by a draft to the pro franchises would be preferable.
The pro franchises could maintain A and B squads -Super Rugby and Vodacom Cup only for over 21s.
The Varsity’s could play a season long Varsity Cup type tournament with an abbreviated U19 & 21 Currie Cup inter provincial tournament towards the end of the season.
The end result would be better education all round. Better crowds (and interest) watching Varsity rugby than U19/21 CC. And if an NFL type draft were in place with the prescribed squad limits a better spread of young players across the franchises.
@beet: And if the boys are just too happy to leave because of their Unions decisions, such as refusing to put them in CW teams because they have contracted outside the Union?
I reckon the EC and Border need to introspect as well, pointless just blaming others for their miseries. I know it’s a political hot potato, with the issue of the Kings (and I am a big supporter of the Kings having a franchise – I think they should have been given a 2 or 3 year deal, that’s how long it takes to even start building a local support base), but how much to you punish a promising young player?
It’s a much more complicated thing. I don’t know much about the US draft system but it is starting to sound as if it might be one way out. No recruiting by the unions at all, just some sort of draft, or bidding system, who knows. Lot’s of you more knowledgeable than me about that.
@star: You’re right about recruitment / poaching. It’s not too late to start regulating it tho. The rivalries that exist will drive this process to the point where richer schools can recruit 10-15 u16s. Schools have also allowed the unions to have too big an influence. It’s in every school’s best interests to shut them out.
Andre T famously branded our province KXN – KwaXhosa Natal coz of all Xhosa players and with that the absence of Zulu kids. KZN has for many years now borrowed from the Eastern Cape but we’ve always seemed to pick up the surplus to requirement players and it’s been proven by our players achievements after school, as none have ever managed to outperform kids from similar backgrounds who stayed in the E/C. So we haven’t ruffled too many feathers with our acquisitions in the past.
KZN schools in partnership with the Bulls (who’s disapproval ratings grows by the day in the E/C and even W/C) are now chasing the E/C big fish. The star players. The equivalents of Scarra Ntubeni, Wandile Mjekewu, Abongile Nonkontwana, Aston Fortuin, Kevin Luiters – top SBR players that got poached from Border causing drama. The schools that facilitate these these Bulls deals much expect adverse reaction to come their way.
Politically motivated T-shirts might pale in comparison to the politics of this issue. I think the Border schools have come to the realisation that keeping the peace is not going to help their efforts to retain players.
The Fakers man can because he mixes it with love! ;-)
@ McCulleys- I am no Faker I tell you- to say otherwise is treason. In all seriousness this recruitment/placement is not going to go away( a bit like prostitution.) We can live in denial or be proactive and take control and manage the process. In a way that is what College might be trying to do. The problem ( as with prostitution) is that there are continuing moral challenges hence the defensive responses from our College men.
@HM: Great response by TH on the new Westville avatar – think it could also work for Star.
@HM:
GT, great news about Waters, can it be a the HM change ie good leadership and ability to manage people? Good sign for future. How’s the hockey, cricket and polo results been since Bichet and La Marq left? Good luck filling those shoes. Bateman was also relieved quickly, how is that going?
Grasshopper, with you, College is a fantastic establishment and may it continue. Showing their cards like they did proves the point.
Beet, I wish Glenwood will show their cards and be counted. You do have your finger on the pulse, I accept that, but no real evidence that a Union placed players..I think. It will cut to the bone if it is true.
MW, you guys tend to travel south for your studies, while many live in JHB if I am not mistaken. Our boys generally don’t have the wallets or alma mater factor down South, nobody’s fault. No school can therfore automatically linked. What must make you proud is that you have by far the most pro players in the system. No real feeder etc. ie your system seems healthy and proves that Combrinck continues to box above his weight.
Westers, I fear you guys. Their is something happening at Westville, and for a change it seems positive. It will be one of us that will be crowned next year. I also sense that Bell is being prepared to take over from Bell as SE has moved to close to the pro approach.
Beet, I notice some boys at Westville are quite creative, do you want to change Westers avatar?
‘Clean hands’ ranking
1 House, can’t see why the the GK 10 would accept a bursary, no disrespect, if he was lined up at WP, must have been his choice.
2 Westville
3 College, one known case…I think. Latest revelation cost you a spot.
4 Kearsney, still offering players from schools they play against is not cool and clearly strengthen their u16’s
5 Hilton, fetching blatantly with from St Charles, St David’s, Westville and ourselves. They slip in at five because they where able to get away with it. Maybe new HM will change that culture.
6 Norhwood, quick fix Dutchies, at least the boys are still here, they had to do something
7 Glenwood, too much stink of late, we will have to ride it for a while
8 DHS, you should be concerned about the safety of those boys in the busses to th EC
@Gungets Tuft: If you are right about your assertions about College’s ability to produce “fully actualized” independent thinking humans, why was there the need for, and I quote “The only obligation that College has to the Bulls is that when the boy matriculates College, College MUST advise him that the Blue Bulls is his best option.”
@HORSEFLY NO.1: yes Horsie, but DHS had been around for 50 years by then, established and with much larger numbers…
It’s all a complete shambles really! Not liking this at all. If under handed things are happening at Glenwood or any other school for that matter it needs to stop ASAP! Looking at Glenwood’s results over the decades, we had a few close to 60% win rates over traditional opposition perfectly happy with that. If Glenwood have to resort to buying in players to gain an extra 5% then I would prefer they didn’t. I would prefer we lost more as long as the team was legit! Bring back the good old days of clean, fun schoolboy rugga. This professional era is a pile of horse manure! My passion for schoolboy rugby is waning knowing the drugs, age issues, trading of players etc is going on….especially with young boys involved….
@HORSEFLY NO.1: I can’t share the specifics but the broad outline is this: Marne’s parents and the Sharks stayed at the same accommodation in Kimberley for both Wildeklawer and then Craven Week in 2011 and got to know each other. They were looking for a solution to Marne’s problem of being u19 in matric at a school that played many u18 cup competition games. He did not have a Bulls contract. The Sharks made the offer. Destination no.1 was always Glenwood. At no stage was any other school’s name mentioned in information relayed to me (I specifically asked because a blogger had on several occasions mentioned a connection to Westville which proved to be 100% incorrect)
But I remember that M Coetzee on a DHS team list that someone posted on R365. I even contacted College to find out if Marcel Coetzee was leaving to join DHS.
@McCulleys Workshop: About the College no.8. It’s an interesting question. I went in search of this answer and was told no, he is not aligned with the Bulls. I’d like to believe that the source is reliable. This would certainly have opened a knew debate coz we had a case this year of a boy who was only in KZN for 4 months but made the Craven Week team. So it would have implied that you can be a proper KZNatalian, have gone to a KZN school all your life but because you hadn’t pledge your future to the Sharks, you were cut out of the picture whereas someone who’d only been here a couple of months could crack the nod because the Sharks were interested in signing him after school.
I was however told that a certain Westville player was totally overlooked for selection in a previous year because he had signed with the Bulls. I’m not sure how true this is and I doubt we’ll ever find out if it is the truth unless someone on the selection committee talks
@beet:
“I also want to say that I think any kid who gets free food at the tuckshop in addition to his 100% bursary is also a pro and should be excluded from SBR.”
That would stop every Glenwood A team player and a few B team players from playing SBR
As far as Marne goes, I’m still not convinced he was PLACED at Glenwood per se, I think he did have a look at other schools too. If I remember correctly he was quite close to attending DHS, so close that at one stage before he moved to KZN he was already a part of the provisional DHS team list for the following year.
Surely then he would’ve looked at other schools which would explain the WBHS dissent at the whole situation after being so close to getting an SA Schools prop and having him eventually choose Glenwood.
This also might’ve contributed to DHS stating last year that they wouldn’t play Glenwood in 2013.
Question is, was it the Sharks who guided him to Glenwood or did Glenwood offer something that nobody else could.
@Grasshopper:
Mind you, DHS only started playing rugby in 1910.
@HM: With regards to a Union placing a player, Marne is the perfect example. He came to KZN as a result of the Sharks. Obviously it was an unusual acquisition because it breached the HMA but if it hadn’t, with Glenwood having Pina, Worral-Clare and JJ Pretorius as props already, why not encourage him to look at Westville or College or one of the other schools. The ideal would have been a school with a rugby season that ends in the second term, which would have freed Marne up for the entire CC u19 season??? He might have rejected the other schools but at least it would have amounted to an attempt to be fair to all.
The only part about the Marne incident that I’m still puzzled about is why there was a need for the KZNRU to investigate the matter. I mean the Sharks knew the full story all along. This seemed like the most pointless exercise ever or perhaps it was intentionally done to divert attention and give the other schools a false sense of trust in the system???
Andre Esterhuizen is another good example of union involvement in placing a boy at Glenwood. He didn’t like it there and left after a few days. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have liked it at one of the other Tier 1 schools??? For those who don’t know AE is big centre who skipped u19 rugby this year and went straight into u21. Big things expected from him in the years to come.
I’m opposed to this kind of recruitment. I really hope some rules get introduced to regulate these kinds of recruitments. And now the well being of Border rugby is at stake. The major schools in that region are 150 years +. I really think a 24 month residency before being allowed to represent a provincial team is the way to unless there are legitimate circumstances for a player moving region (rugby should not be one of them
). I also believe that school rugby should be an amateur sport (like US College football). Typically the W/Cape recruiting involving the Bulls centres around players of colour from disadvantaged economic backgrounds being persuade to move to a new school 1000+km away and only see their families a few times a year. These’s a lot of sugarcoating that then goes on to justify the move but in boils down to just a few things, the boy’s need for money that the Bulls pay, the free education and accommodation that the school pays and in return his ability to deliver on the rugby field as a quota player. In most cases it’s little to do with him desiring to be at the new school so far away from home or how the new school can open doors for him. When Pretoria was the end destination, these kids seem like they are just tokens. Waterkloof went thru the process and thankfully they have said no more! They saw the process for what it was.
I also want to say that I think any kid who gets free food at the tuckshop in addition to his 100% bursary is also a pro and should be excluded from SBR.
I also see what’s going on in KZN and altho I don’t like the method adopted, I back those schools who have looked for new avenues that allow them to keep pace with the advantages Glenwood receives. These other schools are not run by fools. They know what’s going on. Some like myself are hoping for a change in approach with the changes that have taken place at Kings Park. The latest and possibly most important one being Straueli leaving. Hopefully one or two more follow him out the door. And hopefully those coming in have a more balanced approach. Hopefully none of the currently overlooked schools are asking for special rights. They just want FAIRNESS across the board.
IMO in KZN, dealing with the Bulls is not the way to go. Encouraging kids to sign with them after school is wrong. Let the Bulls sell their own product. The Sharks could really get mean and abuse their power to punish schools that go this route. But hopefully this approach and the reasons behind it become public information and ends up bringing about the right changes – systems that work for all KZN schools with the power and influence of unions to determine how school rugby is run or who gets picked for provincial school teams reduced to as close to zero as possible.
@HM: boet, not sure who you are but you getting a little harsh on GT & College, you seem to know quite a bit, are you a Glenwood staff member maybe even TK?
@Gungets Tuft: Yeah, I think it’s played 26, 12 wins apiece and 2 draws in 2012. Far better than the first 90 years which was like 18%!! Now can you see why Glenwood supporters get so excited…
1910 – 1939 – played 107, won 18, lost 78, drew 11 – 17% win ratio
1940 – 1949 – played 77, won 17, lost 55, drew 5 – 22% win ratio
1950 – 1959 – played 68, won 30, lost 32, drew 6 – 44% win ratio
1960 – 1969 – played 74, won 42, lost 27, drew 5 – 57% win ratio
1970 – 1979 – played 79, won 41, lost 31, drew 7 – 52% win ratio
1980 – 1989 – played 80, won 43, lost 36, drew 1 – 54% win ratio
1990 – 1999 – played 77, won 22, lost 52, drew 3 – 29% win ratio
2000 – 2013 – played 101, won 66, lost 32, drew 3 – 65% win ratio
So Gungets, you are right the past 13 years have been pretty good for us, but the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were not too bad, the 90’s were atrocious to say the least and the early years was just loses to College, DHS, Michaelhouse and Hilton who were already established. What is interesting is up to 2000, the average year had 6.2 games vs traditional opponents, the past 13 have had 7.7. Our results against Port Natal, Grosvenor, Pinetown etc take our overall win rate up to around 65% which ain’t bad really…
1960 – 2009
(next 50 years)
1910 – 2009
@McCulleys Workshop: What College will also do is turn him into an I dependent young man who will be equipped to make up his own mind when the time comes. The talk of “playing god” is laughable these days. By then he will in all likelihood have an agent who will steer him to the best deal. What the deal will allow is for him to have full independence to do what he wishes without financial commitments to deal with.
Grassy – Glenwoods performance against college since 2000, unless my maths is wonky, is exactly 50% wins. Haven’t looked for a while thought.
@Grasshopper: Are any of the school fees paid by a union, or are there any College type of agreements that GW will strongly advise them to attend a certain provincial academy?
@McCulleys Workshop: Well, that is what everyone assumes so why partner with the Bulls too. I do know about 6 Glenwood boys have gone to the Bulls over the past few years but i think for study reasons, a few to Maties and quite a few to Bloem. Maybe we in the sack with all of them. Westville, just seems too quiet to not start up something. They went through a phase of bringing Northern Natal boys and putting them in their BE (a house in Jan Hofmeyr Rd, remember a big flank called Boer in the late 90’s staying there, could barely talk a word of English)…..
@Gungets Tuft: Agreed, 2000 to 2013 has been good rugbywise, with probably around 65% win ratio, overall since 1910 we have just passed on the rugby front catching up in the last 50 years, the first 50 years were ugly for us!
vs Hilton (1915)
Played: 98
Won: 39
Lost: 54
Drawn: 5
% Win: 40%
vs DHS (1922)
Played: 145
Won: 54
Lost: 80
Drawn: 11
% Win: 37%
vs Maritzburg College (1921)
Played: 165
Won: 41
Lost: 109
Drawn: 14
% Win: 24%
vs Michaelhouse
Played: 84
Won: 35
Lost: 47
Drawn: 2
% Win: 42%
vs Kearsney
Played: 71
Won: 41
Lost: 27
Drawn: 3
% Win: 58%
vs Westville
Played: 47
Won: 31
Lost: 14
Drawn: 2
% Win: 66%
vs Northwood/Northlands/Beachwood
Played: 53
Won: 38
Lost: 12
Drawn: 4
% Win: 72%
Total
Played: 663
Won: 279
Lost: 343
Drawn: 41
%Win: 42%
@Grasshopper: I haven’t heard anything about this coming out of Westville. Not to say you are wrong but it is being kept well under wraps if true.
What could be really interesting is your reaction if it turns out Glenwood is the school.
@Grasshopper: And how do you exclude Glenwood from the equation, because you are already in the pocket of the shark tank?
@Gungets Tuft: Ignore him boet, he is trying to get you to pop, don’t go down to that level, I have been dragged through that mud previously. College is a great school, always will be….full stop. They have not been around 150 years through a couple of Boer Wars, 2 world wars etc for nothing. Glenwood and most Glenwood bloggers have the utmost respect for College, we just enjoying a good run against them, give it to use we only have about 120 wins to go to catch up ;-)
If it’s a Durban school, there are only 3 options DHS, Westville and Northwood. I’m putting a little wager on Westville as they and their supporters feel hard done by the KZN selections over the past few years. They don’t like that Glenwood has 2 coaches in the mix, but weirdly so does Westville. Anyway, the other 2 schools have no real motive to work with the Bulls and I don’t think the Bulls would work with too many schools……that is just my gut feeling…
@TJ: Hi TJ, I have a very strong view on this, College should not have accepted any obligation to advise the player that the Bulls is his best option post school. You are perpetuating a broken culture of hiring firing renting leasing and playing God with young impressionable lives.
@HM: The fact that this story was written about a school other than College and you are not in the slightest bit interested in who that might be is interesting. Not to worry, the new season will reveal all.
The fact is that you are trying to make this personal. Why, no ody knows except you. Rock on boet. Just remember the story about glass houses. You are getting perilously close to inviting people to comment on your school. It’s an old story of mine, I don’t wrestle with pigs. We both get dirty but the pig likes it.
And before your start your childish rant about Graeme Waters, beware. He is a personal friend of mine, he stays in my home when in Durban, I have known him for nearly 40 years. He has just been appointed head of aquatics at College, he will be a boarder master from next year.
My son is in grade 10 at College. i know a thing or two about the younger kids there, you could not be more wrong about the psyche there. So you are wrong on many points. My suggestion, let it rest. You had best wander down to your alma mater and offer some moral guidance down there, or chat to someone there, ask just how little they need scrutiny right now.
I’m over discussing this with you, but do stick around, you might have to provide a roost for some flying poultry soon enough.
Star my previous post was a crock – Guys I’m struggling to get my mind around union involvement – yes the world has changed, but why should any union be involved with the placement of players within specific schools. Why should we play against a Glenwood side which is loaded with Union imports, IF that were the case, or Northwood etc. somehow it’s doesn’t sit well as as GT said, he would rather College source the players themselves. It’s all the stuff we don’t know, what GK or CW or Sharks Academy pink ticket is offered in the background? Is the College 8th man aligned to the bulls and therefore overlook for KZN craven week, what don’t we know, and to be honest as much as schools didn’t want to play against MHS’s post matric import regime (all were funded by an old boy and not the school in the 90’s, why would any school want to participate against a union feeder set up? Most of us read the NZ Herald article about similar worrying trends in NZ, the polarization of rugby strength in 5 schools, with union interference. It sucks. And then in the college scenario to state that the schools only responsibility is to guide him towards or recommend the Bulls post school, what a crock. Young, possibly from a relatively underprivileged background (he needs to be sponsored to get there) impressionable and grateful – his only realistic option – yes Baas.
@Gungets Tuft: out of touch with what? Not with the instability of your leadership in important sporting codes or the fact that your grade 8, 9 and 10’s are witnessing and getting used to losing at the top. It has yet to be proved that a player was placed by any Union anywhere else than at College. Doesn’t that make you think? Having to rely on the arch enemy to supply players! For the life of me it would have sounded better if you found him yourself. How desperate have you guys become? Again, I often, more than often actually talk about College gees but geez, should we expect Kaptein span die seile from your stands soon. Let me put it this way, would have had College last on the list of schools that would sh.t on their own veranda. How things have changed.
@Gungets Tuft: Yep, agreed arriving halfway through grade 11 was not great, so hopefully lesson learnt by all. If it happens again I cannot defend that. Luckily the kid bounced back and is in the Under21 Sharks squad.
@Grasshopper: I had no issue about why and how Marne got there, or who paid, that is up to Glenwood ansd whether they are happy to have someone lese make their decisions for them. My sole issue with Marne was that him arriving so late in his Grade 11 year, to ligitimise the Headmaster Agreement about U19 players was cynical. I read a lot about the boy, and his distress at the whole saga, and thought he was the innocent victim in the whole deal. I am not going to rehash that, go back and read each and every posting i made about him. That saga is finished.
@Gungets Tuft: OK, so how do we know that Marne was not sponsored by an OB or another source, but was ‘placed’ by KZN Union or given a choice by KZN Union. I can bet Westville tried to get him, he declined and that is why a stink was made, not about his age that was just a red herring. He was legitimately held back as a kid due to an ear or eye problem..
@HM: Bru – that is a rant I am not even going to dignify. You are sadly out of touch, but don’t seem to worry about that getting in the way of slagging off College. Don’t start what you can’t finish, I can guarantee this discussion will say much more about you than it will me or College. I strongly suggest you do a 180 and concentrate closer to home.
@star: that is called scripted boet, it happens in TV shows all the time. The school had nothing to do with their success. Anyway, 10 years of good swimming results does not make the school great at anything, just like 10 years of good rugby results for Glenwood has not made them a great rugby school. We need to produce 70% plus winning seasons for 5 decades to do that, something Grey Bloem has done. School sports goes in circles, maybe Westville with their link to the Bulls will become an unstoppable powerhouse in rugby but then Glenwood will focus on swimming and tennis. They actually have a great group on grade 8 and 9 boys building towards a great few years in swimming. Westville’s last unbeatable team has now gone, change of the guard is near, give it 2 more years. Easier to change the guard in sports that only needs about 12 good athletes to compete, rugby you need 450!
@Grasshopper: I heard that the new Grade 12’s in the Northwood first side were privately “funded”, I actually had a name gven to me by a Northwood parent (through gritted teeth) at the College vs Northwood match. Could be wrong though, it’s not unheard of …
@Grassy- I am not sure how swimming got brought into the conversation. Maybe the swimmers broke the Headmasters agreement. They certainly have broken enough records.There was actually an interesting program on TV( Expresso) on the Westville swimmers and specifically on the current U19 team who are the fastest unit ever to pass through the school. They talked about how the school dynamics/teammates had motivated their performances and how they were looking forward to following in the footsteps of their illustrious predecessors. The question is what is GW bringing new to the table that will keep this momentum and in so doing make SA proud. From what I have heard they have thrown a little pocket money around and got the great WOB coach to switch teams. Nothing that inspires confidence in the great noble cause. ( more like the same parochial interests being served).Surely SA deserves better.
@TJ: Caps off to you Master, that’s how I know College people and that’s how one will continue to expect it.
GT, fact is that we are in the now, not 20 years ago and at present College would not make it near the top of a Top all round sport school in KZN. When I was in the army…, when I was at school…. when I went down for a bosk.k the buck got away. etc etc. does not cut it. You guys have missed it and it will time and money to solve. Reality is that your schools leadership have let the College down. They hire and fire rugby coaches, they cant manage Bichet, they give us La Marq on a platter. The direct result is that Rugby, Hockey, Cricket and Waterpolo took a knock. I believe that Walters, replaced Bichet as Sports Director also got the bullet? Not sure if its true. Fire two Sport Directors in your 150th? How many more passionate College men are you going to chase away. Strudwick came in a woosh Smith took over? Its hard to replace men and good leadership would have managed them. Thank heavens that people (10 min ago I would not have used people to be honest) are as passionate about College as you otherwise they would have been sitting comfortably next to Alex by now. Your loyalty and passion is recognized and saluted but TJ showed the way.
@star: Just like the swimming was getting a little to red and blue for my liking, glad that is changing asap.
@Gungets Tuft: Those Northwood imports must have been placed by the KZN Union. Other schools might have been able to sweep things under the carpet like other issues, who knows. I agree grade 8 to 10 is fair game….go for it, grade 11 and 12 absolute no no!
@Grasshopper: How could it not be seen as targeted at me, or College. No matter.
My point was always that the KZNRU only ever placed boys at Glenwood, unless there were some placed at other schools but we didn’t know about it. Even more, and I have always been clear about this, is the timing. In the last term of Grade 11, then for me, it is just trying to get past the HM agreement. In the last term of Gr 11, then repeating Gr 11, then allow my cycnicism to boil over. Not going to rehash this subject, it has been chewed to death, over and over.
Kids in Grades 8 – 10, on scholarship, why not (although I do have my personal preferences I must say, which is home grown, but is seems, sadly, that the world has moved on from there). The only difference here is that the oke was not found by a school scout but by a Union scout. Other than that, business as usual, no encumberances, no duties, no commitments, other than to the boy himself, which is everything that College has to offer all it’s students.
@ Grassy- so long as it is accountable and transparent and does not breach the rules of the Headmasters agreement. I think the issue of conflict of interest was also raised in the Marne incident. Nothing has changed on that front. I would hope that if Westville entertained any relationship with the Bulls then it would be on that basis.
@GT- I am quite happy that things are being shook up a bit as there were too many fleas on the old black and white dog and it was starting to look a little green around the gills
Amazing how suddenly all the bloggers that bleated about Glenwood taking in KZN Union ‘placed’ players now find ‘it’s good for rugby’ when it comes their way. Hypocritical I would say…….GT that is not targeted at you….
@star: Not being precious, or defensive, just making it quite clear that College controls the process, the finance, and makes the rules. If that is “collaboration”, then so be it.
I have a question though. The way it currently stands, if KZNRU had to “banish College to the outer reaches of the tundra” .. how would College know?
Hopefully the new administration at the Tank will not be too koptoe about it. I can assure you, the doors at College are open to the KZNRU, should they want to place boys at College, but the same rules would apply. Hell, perhaps they do already ask, I wouldn’t know about that.
@star: So how is Westville’s ‘relationship’ with the Bulls and taking placements?
@Gungets Tuft: Great policy to have at all schools getting placements.
@College men- You have answered my question about why College was selected. The colours have now been raised( rightly or wrongly) and there is an association. The next question is how will the KZNRU react . Will they try and curry favour or banish College to the outer reaches of the tundra ( where only GT will venture
)
And you guys must not be so precious and defensive. As McCulleys states such collaboration ( not necessarily a dirty word) should be grabbed with both hands as it can only improve the provincial standard and competition amongst schools. You guys do not need to go into detail as to why the new ” association” will never taint the College man. There are new realities at play and the outcomes are not all negativel
@Gungets Tuft: Exactly, I believe one of the reasons for this arrangement is because of the quality of player we give them. The Bulls have noticed a lack of effort on the part of the KZNRU to establish a connection with the school and have stepped into the void created.
@TJ: The main reasons I like the approach of the school controlling the financing are these –
1. College will ensure the tenure of the financing. The boy is at College to stay, no matter how his rugby turns out. That stands even if, heaven forbid, he gets hurt and cannot play again.
2. The union does not get to dictate what team he plays for, what position he plays, when and if he tours etc.
3. There is no question that he submits to all the expectations of College, as he is, to the school, just another student. College is not negotiable on that point. Misbehave and there are consequences, even if you are the shining star. It was part of the reason we have lost talented boys in the past. Take the Unions money, they think it buys the right to make the rules.
@Grasshopper: Ja, I know. The terms of HM’s little outburst pointed to more recent times, y’know, when College became the whipping boys of the region, and just lying down meekly and accepting it. It must be true, after all “Its happening and it’s for all to see”.
2000 – 2013 have been particularly notable for Glenwood though, back in 1920 you were not standing up to the like of GCB, Affies etc, so on equal measure, I reckon the last 13 years have been Glenwoods best.
@Gungets Tuft: just an FYI, 2000 to 2010 was not our glory years, we have other as successful decades, the 1920’s being one.
@HM: At the risk of revealing myself in terms of my position at College with what I’m about to say I think its a necessary risk. The boy you are referring to is D. Atembe who arrived at College at the beginning of this year from the Western Cape. He was scouted by the Bulls at the u-13 Craven Week 2 years ago and wasn’t picked up by any of the major schools in the area. The Bulls remained interested in the player and asked College if they were interested in accepting the player into the school. College replied in the affirmative and arranged for the financing of a bursary to be offered to the player. The player accepted the offer and moved here.
With regards to the Blue Bulls involvement in the entire affair, they scouted the player and pointed College in the right direction. The only obligation that College has to the Bulls is that when the boy matriculates College, College must advise him that the Blue Bulls is his best option.
What I have said here is exactly what has occurred and if you still think differently then I would suggest you lay off Durban’s finest.
@HM: Bru – I suggest you go away and do your homework, the school in the article is NOT College. At no stage did I point finger at anyone, all I said was I can understand why schools in KZN might be receptive. In fact I said I have no issue as long as it is not directly into the open age group, and then because it undermines the morale of the other kids. I prefer it to be placed and NOT funded, because I believe there is then an obligation from school and boy to the Union. College will not put themselves in that position – the boy will be a College man first, then after school can decide what he does next.
As for the rest of your post, what a load of ‘shine. “Use (sic) to the losing feeling”, care to pull up some stats, since 2000 for instance (Glenwoods glory years) to support that statement. College is stirring from what we Old Boys feel was a sleepy 10 years, that is enough for us Old Boys, and it should be enough to give you pause.
So, if my approach to examining the current recruitment practices, and that certain contracted boys getting placed (but not funded – let’s be very clear on that!!) at schools where they feel comfortable language and culture wise, is “losing moral high ground”, then so be it.
It is an interesting statement though, that somewhere in the middle of all this, there is moral ground. Perhaps that is the title of a whole new blog.
The article actually says “Durban school”. The first comment made about the article and guess who made it. You should have been upfront and should not have pointed fingers at Westville, Glenwood etc., or kept quite. College is a respected school, for all the right reasons, but they are getting use to the losing feeling. Its happening and it’s for all to see, and if you continue with this approach they will lose the moral high ground as well.
@HM: I know enough about him and why/how he got to College, via a request for the Bulls to take him in. It would be unfair to discuss the circumstances, suffice to say that it was a language and culture fit that would not have been possible where he was and also anywhere in Bulls country. It took place at U15 level which is fine in my book.
Now, since you seem to know so much about it, why not just say what is on your mind, it would save a lot of idle chit chat?
@Gungets Tuft: don’t need to but will replace the word funded with placed. Have you phoned the coach yet? Never mentioned if it’s right or wrong. You obviously know quite a bit about this player.
@Grasshopper: If it’s a charity mission does that mean there will be non-sportsmen and women on the list. I have a mate who is on the boards of a couple of NGO’s who is always looking for funding for some life changing projects.
@Grasshopper: It makes a huge difference. If a kid is funded by a Union then he is beholden to that Union, and the school somehow “has a relationship” with them. The fact that he is funded by a school benefactor means that he is free to make any choice he likes, even giving up rugby if he chooses. The same boy is getting other support from people, mostly around the social side, making sure that College is a home from home for him. Enough of that sort of stuff though, that’s all Ho-Hum, everyone does that.
@Gungets Tuft: does it really matter who funds a kids school fees? It could be a secret millionaire funding a few kids. My company is looking into this as our charity mission for the year. It’s more about the placement of kids from one province to another in a certain school they have a relationship with.
@HM: Bulls pay nothing, the boy is funded by a private scholarship. The fact that he might have the Bulls interested, same as they were in the twins and Reegan, doesn’t mean they pay for them. Check your sources.
Then, when we are finished with that investigation, let’s see how the Glenwood imports are funded.
Referring to ….There are no, NONE, Bulls funded boys at College
@Gungets Tuft: I suggest you phone your u15 A coach and ask him if it’s true.
@Gungets Tuft: Totally agree, that is why the Boks must not take Wales, Scotland or France lightly, full and proper preparation..
@All Black: Boet, not sure what you on about, it’s a constructive discussion…..is that not allowed?
@Grasshopper: Yep, even then. You don’t get to beat sides consistently by taking them lightly or getting ahead of yourselves.
I have already typed out an extract from Jimeloyo Ji regarding Glenwood, I can do the same for all our traditional rivals, including Voories, Alex, Estcourt, even Ixopo.
Laurels are for feeding to the cows, not for resting on …
@Gungets Tuft: Not worth it Bud. Just smile and wave.
@Gungets Tuft: Paywalls for websites, never going to work no matter how niche or unique their content is. They are actually a client of mine. Paywalls only work for the FT.com and B2B sites..
@Gungets Tuft: OK, even when you were klapping sides 50 plus? Hmmmm….
@Grasshopper: College have always seen their opposition as equals. Just saying …
@Gungets Tuft: It is a paid service …..
About the best school sport roundup I have seen in any newspaper. Might be Maritzburg based but they carry stories on everything, even surfing.
http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?content&global%5BcategoryISbb_content_categoriesID%5D=8
@Gungets Tuft: in my 5 years at Glenwood we never did the double (win rugby & cricket), in the past few years we have done it a few times. This year we even did the triple if you consider the hockey win at home. On the rugby front, the games are always tough and close, but this decade we have the upper hand which last only happened in the 20’s. Take it as a compliment that Glenwood held College on a pedestal for decades, we now see College as equals :-)
@Gungets Tuft: great stuff, he is feeling a little low on the rugby front, especially after the 50 point loss to Westville on hallowed Goldstones. That was unheard of prior 2000. No school has a magic wand so agreed it’s a 5 year plan. Seems all of the top 8 schools have ambitious 5 year plans. Glenwood is talking about an Olympic size pool taking over the basketball courts and an extra field down by the BE. Seems it’s an arms race between the schools and College will cover the capital and midlands. I look forward to when College is back to its sports pinnacle! Not that it’s bad now, just other schools have improved…
@Grasshopper: Tell your mate that he can safely start setting up some visits to your place on Saturday evenings, the “heydays” are on their way back. It been a quiet 10 years, it’s about to get noisy. You don’t rebuild Rome in a year or two, but the construction crew is on site and raw material is arriving steadily.
@Amalekite: can you substantiate the rumour? Do you know for sure? From what I am aware there are no new arrivals..
@Queenian: Hey boet I hear via the grape fine that your daughter is Head Girl next year is that true?
And how did little Queenian’s EP Cricket trials go.
@Queenian: Then again I think “Oom Bog” is much to old to be that boy.
@Queenian: Ye remember that boy I think his name was Bog or something.
@BOG: Actually think they caught him at Grey Bloem they had just made him Headboy.
@BOG: @Grasshopper: When I was at Queens we used to play JJS on a Wednesday afternoon I think in 1981 JJS were still based in the Old Air Force Base we took a extra Queens uniform with us after the game one of the JJS players came into our change room got dressed in the Queens uniform got in the bus with us and when got to Queens he borrowed some civies and that was the last we saw of him.
Speak about planning the “great escape” not to say that two Queens kids got into a heap of crap for it, took them 3 months to catch the kid again.
@Gungets Tuft: thanks Gungets! My mate finished at College in the early 90’s, College’s hey day so his expectations are high. Coming 2nd to rabble like Glenwood and Westville is not common to him. He is finding it tough to take that College are just average in some sports these days. My dad is a DHS old boy so it’s even tougher for him to take, losing to the scum from Scumbilo High!
@Grasshopper: Let’s give you the benefit of the doubt then, and I look forward to unqualified complimentary stuff about schools other than Glenwood.
@Gungets Tuft: It called concern for all KZN schools, just like I am concerned that Pinetown has drifted into obvilion. A strong and healthy top 10 schools in KZN in all sports makes for better competition and better overall provincial performances. A mate of mine has a kid there and is concerned a few sports are not where they should be. Now I am aware of the financial challengers all semi-gov schools have so maybe College are concentrating on core sports first with others to come later, just like Glenwood did on rugby/tennis/cricket and now aquatics & basketball. I find it a bit of a kick in the teeth if you think I only support Glenwood and it’s well-being. For me it’s about supporting the kids involved no matter what school. If I was offered a coaching job at Westville or College I would go in a heart beat..
@Grasshopper: Why it would concern you is beyond me. Explain that, then perhaps I will understand …
@Gungets Tuft: Not really mate, chill out. I certainly do not have any inferiority complex at all, especially when it comes to schools sport which is a little hobby on the side of a very busy job. I have complimented College a million times on this block. It is concerning that College have dropped off in sports it used to dominate. Maybe you taking is a little too personally. College used to beat Glenwood 90% of the time in the pool and athletics track, these days not so. I’m just saying maybe it’s an area they should look at.
@Grasshopper: The water polo was not that bad when they beat Glenwood earlier this year, and were 4th in the Top 10 behind Clifton, Hilton and Kearsney. You need to medicate, your school does just fine without trying to make other schools look bad. It’s a sign of an inferiority complex, you can get help for that …
@Gungets Tuft: Well it is a good point, not sure what happened to College’s swimming and waterpolo, used to be pretty good. Anyway, probably should have been two separate posts, I apologise…
@Grasshopper: I know, I took the photograph, my son is in the picture.
It never occured to you to just stop at “Well done to them for winning the KZN paddling champs for a 7th year in a row.”, there’s always got to be something else …. tsk, tsk, tsk ….
@Gungets Tuft: https://twitter.com/MaritzCollege/status/397292509795086336/photo/1
@Amalekite: Not heard anything, let’s hope Under18 and grade 11…what is big though. In KZN any kid over 195 & 100kg is considered big…
@Gungets Tuft: Fermented Grape! Your paddling boys obviously don’t have enough fermented grape. Well done to them for winning the KZN paddling champs for a 7th year in a row. You would hope so considering the Duzi virtually flows through the school. Seems to be the only aquatics College have sorted….
@Grasshopper: Too much grape I think.
The rumour mill has it that 2 big locks have arrived at Glenwood. Apparently they are in the open age group.
I just hope that if it is true, that it does not fall foul of the HMA, otherwise we might witness another storm in a teacup…
Perhaps someone from Glenwood can throw some light on these rumours?
I do know that the main Bulls scout is not welcomed at a number of the schools in the Western Cape and he dare not set foot on their premises. He is also seemingly not allowed to sit in certain parts of Newlands.
So the relationships down there might be different to what we have in KZN.
Part and parcel of a good education is guiding kids and providing them with the best opportunities to succeed after school. In this respect, I don’t believe that any tier-1 KZN school will stand in the way of a Union approaching one of their boys and their parents in a formal manner about rugby after school. So in this respect there is not blocking out of certain Unions and allegiance to others.
So I think we are definitely talking at two different levels. After-school level and at school level.
After for school level the Sharks have a budget the fraction of the size of the Bulls and prefer those who have money to pay them for a place at the Sharks Academy. The opportunity to join the Sharks programme is there but it might be more financially beneficial to join the Bulls. I for one wish that the Sharks could plough more money into junior rugby as this would open up more options to retain players but they have a tried and test formula that works for them. They do not chase junior trophies. Their priority is the development of players for senior rugby.
With regards to at school level, its a new ballgame where the Union identifies a boy who is well settled and going to a reasonably good rugby school but for financially beneficial purposes is easily persuaded to leave his school that has brought him to that point and move to a new school that is part of the Union’s pact. The primary reasons for recruiting him are RUGBY and quota!
@BOG: They probably have inner school gangs like Polsmoor. Jeez, that place looks crazy! What’s worse is it’s only about 8km from my house. You probably get stabbed when going through the 1st team tunnel…
@Gungets Tuft: Promise I’m not on a horse mate, maybe not yet but with College and Westville feeling so hard done by selections they might in the future. I’m not trying to stir, this was a genuine grape vine story from a mate up in Pretoria teaching at a prominent school there. However ‘genuine’ the grapevine can be
@Grasshopper: They make Boys Town look like sissies. Years ago, the younger kondossies (their nickname) congregated in the oppositions 25 (now 22) with their catties and if they got through. they used the catties on that player. And Im not exaggerating. They had a similar school in KWT (The late Al Debbo, the comedian was an old boy) but rumour has it that the Bulls recruited all their boys several years ago and they had to close. Now they all go to QC and the overflow to JJS. Their sister school is the Tempe Tigres in Bloem
@Grasshopper: ” It seems College has some sort of tie with the Bulls” – you keep saying it, but there is no substance to it. There are no, NONE, Bulls funded boys at College. Last year there were three Bulls contracted players, all missed by the Sharks. In short – get off the horse boet
@BOG: I loved my time at Boys Town, so brought back great memories
@star: Ah knew I missed another, Jacques Taylor Sharks Under21…
@Queenian: You see, you got Grasshoppers attention there. You should have told him that its an exclusive rural private school and that he should make enquiries for his kids and for his convenience, he can do it at his nearest magistrates office. His feed-back from that would have been quite interesting.
@Queenian: Ah OK, so like Boys Town but worse. I see, those kids would make great rugga players…tough as nails…
@Gungets Tuft: Basketball is looking better for Glenwood, we used to lose heavily to DHS, College, Westville and St Charles not within 8 to 10 baskets, so looking up. Cricket is on the up to with the Under15A’s unbeaten in 19 games! Waterpolo is looking rosy in the junior sides too…
@star: Again, not talking about out of school allegiances, I’m talking about in school provincial allegiances. It seems College has some sort of tie with the Bulls and Westville are ‘hacked off’ with lack of Craven Week selection so might do the same. Hence the Bulls might place talented kids at Westville in future, just a thought. In terms of Sharks representation now, Westville don’t have significantly more than say Glenwood with 5; Kyle Cooper, Fred Zeilanga, Franna Kleinheins, Wade Elliott, Marne Coetzee….maybe I missed one..
@Grasshopper: You forgot to mention the Basketball?
Ja, I must confess to being a bit irritated about the cricket. Got 2 x U14 players, 3 x U16 in the first side. The okes are damn good, I think we have 3 future Protea players in there, but I am just not sure about U14 being ready for that level. Still, College winning 13 out of 17 is OK. Seems we might be sacrificing the lower age groups for experience at 1st team level.
Water Polo – well, ja. Disappointing to say the least, they have been MUCH better than that result this year but so it goes.
@ Grassy- Why do you have Westville as affiliated to the Bulls. Westville have 3 in the Sharks set-up and 4 in the U21 team. That is significantly more than any other local school. If Westville breaks ranks and teams up with a northern province it will not be from a lack of trying or issues of disloyalty. Maybe as Gungets points out if there is perceived abuse at the CW trials then there will be fertile ground for certain schools to look at alternative options and for said provinces to take advantage. Maybe something for J. Smit to think about.
@Grasshopper: JJS even wear GCB second hand rugby jersey’s
@Grasshopper: That’s why Queenstown is so well known for there education of excellence it is not because they have Queens as such who can claim to be a top 10 school but because they know they have the No 1 kick ass/beat down reform school.
Actually known as GCB brother school
@Grasshopper: JJ Serfontein school for the bad kids (Reform school) or in other words prison for youngsters ask Bog he spend 3 years there.
@Grasshopper: A place you don’t want to send your kids to I think Westville is a far better option.
@BOG: So now you know why Queenians are so well behaved they are shit scared of getting detention.
@Queenian: JJS?
@BOG: There reward for good behaviour at JJS is they get to go to Queens and there reward for bad behaviour is they get to go to GCB.
I hear at Queens these days if you get detention you go to JJS for the afternoon, they say disapline has got much better since they started that.
@Gungets Tuft: Oh yes, I forgot to gloat about the cricket & waterpolo success vs College a week ago; http://www.glenwoodhighschool.co.za/sites/default/files/College%20results%20Oct%202013%282%29.pdf. Nice wins for the 1st and Under15A’s, Under16A’s didn’t play and the Under14A’s must have all been playing polo
@Queenian: Any truth in the rumour that Queens have poached several players from JJS ? Or is that just the normal migration of players? If its true, it should have a marked and positive impact- on QC .
@Westers: hahaha, not sure either, probably a Westville promotions site
I did have a couple of friends there and still do. All my Westville bashing is to cause a stir with them, do people really think I’m serious?
@Grasshopper: Can’t imagine what this blog would have been like if you had made the switch.
@Gungets Tuft: I’m talking about affliations at grade 8 to grade 12 level. If Glenwood got Marne Coetzee due to a relationship with the Sharks then if other schools like Westville and College affliate themselves with the Bulls then we will start to see more of this as a grade 10 level, so more Kapstok van Greunings, Baksteen Nel’s and Xhosa surnames in the sides. I do know Glenwood got Koos Tredoux from Waterkloof in grade 10, probably others. I think it’s completely fair at grade 10 and below level. The schools just need to be aware it will cheese off kids and parents where the kid has been at that school since grade8. The best policy is for the Unions to spot them at primary school level and then place them at a school from grade 8. Unsettling kids for rugby is not great. By grade 10 I had made my mates at Glenwood. We moved to Westville and my dad offered a move to Westville, which I declined and said dad my mates are all at Glenwood and I’m in the A teams from impressin the coaches. I don’t want to have to start again…
@Grasshopper: Tsk, tsk, tsk ou Grassy.
Send a mail to the Union rather, ask them who THEY affiliate with. It’s not as if the Sharks were falling over themselves to approach College boys.
College have in the past had boys go to the Sharks (Ungerer – and Baby Boks), Bulls (2 x Kriel and Smith). There were, until very recently, 2 College boys in the Sharks (James and Burden), two at the Stormers (Grant and Armand). We have had boys turn out for almost every union, so there is no allegience, just a career after school where some unions make offers and other do not. I am told the Sharks did approach the Kriels in their Matric year but they had already committed to the Bulls, so they fulfilled their obligations.
Just remember that the Sharks have a major hurdle to overcome when recruiting – a local university that has very low ratings. The Bulls have Tuks, Stormers have UCT and Stellies. Hard to play that one, but I can tell you this, if the Sharks were to offer College boys deals then they would be right at the top of the list. Perhaps they believe there is no talent to be had in KZN, which is their perogative, just don’t query it when they surface elsewhere.
By your standards above, House is a Lions union – more House Old Boys in the Lions team than any other.
So provincial affliations might look like this;
Kearsney – Sharks & Stormers
Glenwood – Sharks/Bulls & Cheetahs
Westville – Bulls
College – Bulls
DHS – ?
Northwood – Sharks
Michaelhouse – ?
Hilton – Sharks
Port Natal – Sharks
George Campbell – Sharks
Well a good example of this kind of trading is Garsfontein, never heard of them 5 years ago now with recruits from the WP they are top 10. KES have recruited from Border eg Scarra, Glenwood, DHS and others to a lesser degree in Border/EC. I’m assuming now others in KZN will join the group, so I would not be surprised if Westville start to do it with the help of the Lions or Bulls. I think Northwood did the wrong thing and brought in too many. It’s a complete gemors! It certainly won’t build trust amongst the headmasters and we will see more schools refusing to play each other. But I agree with Gungets if the brought in beginning or during grade 10 then no one can complain. By matric these boys would have integrated properly and played a year of opens rugby against older boys.
The other issue is the Bulls use schools like Southdowns to place these boys at so you cannot exactly boycott them as they are not traditional rugby schools anyway.
Not sure what Durban school they actually mean but DHS has been trying to recruit kids from the Border area now for a few years.
@Gungets Tuft: I mean “don’t arrive at end Gr 11”
@McCulleys Workshop: Boet, have you read anything I have said. I have no issue with it, provided they are in age group and they do it arrive at the end of grade 11. I reckon they should start their new school at the start of the open age group or it is unfair to the boys that have served their time. We are teaching our boys the wrong thing if we bring in imports in the last season. It’s not only about winning.
Very good read, and interesting that it is presumed to be the Bulls. Could this not be the handiwork of the Lions? I believe AK Nela from Glenwood arrived there after competing for GK for border, having attended Selborne. He was in negotiations with the Lions for next year, but they didn’t want to cover his tertiary education so he is going to Pukke.
@Gungets Tuft: @Grasshopper: You guys are being a little narrow minded, like a Russian pole dancer refusing to dance to Fleetwood Mac! Any collaboration that improves the rugby of our respective schools and province must be grabbed with both hands, even if the players are sourced by the Bulls (because they are dead eyed Dick with their recruitment skills) and even if the players secure a Bulls contract in advance for post school. Let them use our quality schools for their stomping ground, after all we want to win.
@Grasshopper: I think if anything the previous Northwood management helped make it clear just how much a school can profit from close ties with the a Union, in their case the Sharks. With then Sharks Academy coach Swys de Bruin’s help they acquired players that under different circumstances would not have considered the school a viable rugby option.
So Unions can potentially play a big role in school rugby success stories and contribute to failures of those that fall outside their realm of concern – Border region being a good example of this and I think a couple of KZN schools feel the same way about how they are being ignored.
@Grasshopper: No idea. Plenty of change at Northwood in the last few months, going from bad to worse in my mind, other than Grant Bashford taking on the 1st team coaching, which I think is a great move. I am not sure what the relationship will be like with the Sharks with MK gone and GB there. I would
like to think the Sharks can lend a hand there but only time will tell. I think the recruitment last year was a massive blunder that will put them back 4 years, but time will tell.
@Gungets Tuft: So Northwood are not getting any boys from Gauteng or other areas for the Sharks or have not in the past?
@Grasshopper: It’s not Glenwood getting the heat, it’s a question being asked about a Durban (KZN) school taking on Bulls contracted players. There are several explanations, my first one being the smallest adjustment for the boy himself, culturally and language wise. Beyond that, boys being brought in from Gauteng by the Sharks are only going to one place, fact, but it is actually another school (I assume not Glenwood, why would they if they get the Sharks boys) that is attracting attention for their Bulls boy. If he is in Grade 10, why the fuss, except of course in the Eastern Cape where they do have cause for concern because of the plundering of their talent.
@Gungets Tuft: agreed, but then Glenwood should not be the only ones getting heat. I think John Smit will have a plan for schools here….
@Gungets Tuft: they must do, I’m not defending it, it’s wrong. Why is rugby not the sand as cricket and hockey with a coastal side and a inlands/country side? I was extremely uncomfortable with that many. I would rather 10 get invited and all 10 make a side, that way all the finger pointing would stop. Also, would prefer less coaches involved, maybe just Sean…
@Grasshopper: Bit of a stretch there, nobody was saying other schools don’t support the Sharks just because they might take a Bulls contracted boy, any more than Kearsney should be seen as supporting the Stormers because MRE accepted a contract from them. But if the Sharks are going to snooze their lives away at Kings Park, or bring contracted players into Durban schools from Gauteng, then there should be no surprise when Durban/KZN boys run out for the Bulls or Stormers. It’s called building a career, not disloyalty.
@Grasshopper: I have read your various posts, but you seem to forget that with 30 Glenwood boys at trials meant there were a lot of boys who did not even get invited. It goes beyond the final picks. Tell me that Glenwood don’t use that “invited to trials” number as marketing.
So who is left in Durban, DHS, Northwood, Westville, George Campbell, Port Natal and Kearsney. Kearsney supports the Sharks, so it can’t be them. DHS couldn’t expect more selections. Same with Northwood, Campbell & Port Natal, so it can only be Westville. Very interesting if it is…
And my reference to the Pastoral Care directorship at College was simply in response to the original article which expressed concern about taking kids away from their homes and surroundings. College is becoming much more aware of the role they have to play in the boys lives, even more so in the BE. Whether other schools are doing the same is neither here nor there.
@Gungets Tuft: you obviously never read my numerous posts where I agreed too many Glenwood boys were at trials and in the Academy side. However the boys selected in the A team were there on merit. I think Tredoux and Vidima were lucky. You having said that, I’m thinking other felt hard done by might be hooking up with the Bulls then….
@Grasshopper: 30 boys invited to trials, all on merit, your whole second side, some 3rd team, all better than 1st team players at other schools 1st side players. Of course. Not going to rehash this, I reckon you must be one of the few around that believes that Glenwood is not being advantaged by the Sharks, so the fact that other schools are open to approaches from the Bulls should come as no surprise.
@Gungets Tuft: all schools have that rhetoric, all rounder, balanced young man etc, so that ain’t unique. It’s one of Westville’s claimed USP’s, the most ‘all round’ education. What irritates me is people complain about too many Glenwood players picked, but honestly there were maybe 2 boys in the A team that were lucky, the rest were there on merit. Glenwood can’t help they have more previously disadvantaged boys that get picked to make up the quotas…
@Grasshopper: the Kriels and Reegan Smith were contracted at the end of their U16 year, way before the selection issue last year. Given that all 3 featured prominently in the U19 Currie Cup campaign is, I hope, a source of introspection for the dwellers of Kings Park. Perhaps the changing of the guard at the Tank will ring a change, for the sake of schoolboy rugby in KZN, I hope so.
And no, no middle finger from College, it’s not their style. But would College decline an approach for a union, Sharks, Bulls, Free State, no, I doubt it. The new structures at College are perfectly suited to providing an all round education for a scholarship boy. One thing would be crystal clear though, the boy would not be there just for his rugby, he would have to buy the whole College experience, including the social mentorship which is being put on turbo from this year with the establishment of a Directorship and staffing to drive what College call Pastoral Care. So if a boy does arrive at College on scholarship from wherever, be sure that the school will be focused on developing the whole man, not just the rugby player. When his career is over one day, he will be a College Old Boy first, then a rugby player.
@Gungets Tuft: agreed! So why have the rule at grade 10, why not once in at grade 8 the can’t leave only if family is relocating, especially for those on bursary. Otherwise all schools will do is recruit at Grant Khomo level which is still unfair to those boys who have played in the school colours for 2 almost 3 years already…
@Grasshopper: I don’t care what school it is, as long as the kid is playing in the right age group and arrives before the end of grade 10. Karrent like end of grade 11 as it is dispiriting for kids that are just a year from perhaps playing 1st team just to have an import take their place.
The Eastern Cape is going to be a hunting ground as long as it is an economic backwater plagued by socio-political issues. It’s not a new thing, eastern Cape boys have been moving to bigger unions for years, they are now doing it before they leave school, transformation quotas driving that migration. The people pushing the current transformation agenda via quotas should look up the meaning of “unintended consequence”.
So the only question to ask about the boy, what grade is he going into ..
College seem to have a convection to the Bulls with the Kriel’s and your 2012 No8 captain, forget his name. Do you think this is a middle finger to the Sharks for not picking enough College boys in the Craven Week side?
@Gungets Tuft: well we all know for a fact DHS and Glenwood have recruited from the Eastern Cape, hence the age bust. Also, Glenwood recruit from Pretoria at grade 8 level, not sure after that. Marne Coetzee & Koos Tredoux were from Waterkloof. As for recruitment by the Bulls only Carel Swart, Ferdie Horn, Dean Moolman, Shaun Adendorff and Jacques Taylor have gone up there that I am aware of so no previously disadvantaged players. In fact a couple boys from 2012 went to the Free State, Mkhabala and Xabi. So I don’t think it’s Glenwood but you never know….
The article actually says “Durban school”.
As for why the Bulls might be dealing with KZN schools, the one reason I could think of is the language barrier. Black kids from the Eastern Cape are most likely to be Xhosa speaking, black kids in boarding establishments in KZN most likely Xhosa or Zulu, and the smallest cultural gap would exist. Pretoria is more likely to be Sotho, a bigger cultural and language change.
Of course, the other reason the Bulls might deal with KZN schools is what many might see as fertile ground. Many of us KZN people believe the Sharks have narrowed their recruiting view to just Durban, and even then just Glenwood. It might be a wrong impression but the invites to trials and eventual selections do nothing to dispel that impression.