The Border schools Selborne, Dale and Queens have produced their fair share of rugby talent over the years. Usually these players complete their schooling first and then leave the region to make names for themselves playing top level rugby at other big provinces. There have been times when boys have left Border for schools in other regions under controversial circumstances. With news filtering through that the Bulls have persuaded a promising Grant Khomo Week 2012 player who also featured at the SA HP u16 training camp to move to Pretoria, this has to be classified as one of those controversial situations. In 2012, the Border Rugby Union unfairly excluded all boys that had signed contacts with other rugby unions from their Craven Week team. This punishment meted out to their best players who were just following a tradition of taking the opportunity to secure their futures careers as rugby players was bound to have repercussions. It might not add up to any sweat off Border’s brow. They stand to lose the players anyway. One has to feel for the schools in the region though. They potentially stand to lose more talented players before their schooldays are up. Perhaps now is a good time to put pressure on Border RU to re-evaluate it’s standpoint on Craven Week selection and rather focus more attention on providing a package that encourages boys to stick around after school.
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@Queenian: Ye hope you folks get it right
@QC86: Sorry misunder stood there ye agree they have alot on there plates to survive as we know them.
@Queenian: read and you will see ,i said our schools ARE in sh,not that they have gone to sh,big diffs
@Queenian: QC86 is a bit of a pessimist you see
@QC86: I cannot speak for Dale but am activily involved in the QC setup and i do not think they have gone to shi! they have there challanges but have done well in keeping up.
@QC86: HATER!!!
Look, it’s tough for the Border schools. Dale’s just doing its bit to market itself using their strengths.When I arrived at Dale Junior in 1992, Dale College had 800+ boys.When I was in Std 6 in 1996, we had 650 boys.When I matriculated in 2000, there were 350 of us.Now there are 400+ boys,but quality boys remains a challenge.Sure,there are problems at the school,and we all know them.Trouble is we need the right people to address them.That doesn’t mean the school cannot market the good that is there.
I strongly believe that a strong union of old boys from all 3 schools can help address the macro problems faced by our colleges.The Baboona are lucky they’re in EL, the Kudu lucky to be 150km away from Bhisho,but Dale are right under the department’s nose,leaving the school with very little autonomy.I would dearly love my son to go to Dale,but there is a long way to go.At least he’s only 2 years old,so there’s still time for me to do something
@Playa: playa all our beloved schools are in big shit,i just pick on Dale because every second newspaper has got some artical in ,written by some grey haired oldboy about how good Dale is,even the you magazine the other day,sis and it is all bullshit,bot was one of them on rugby365 and you know who he is
@Playa
Some must have made it on remarks. The remarks must be back. The did at least try and compete. Fighting spirit. I would have told them not to write . At least they would have been able to play first another year and prepare better. None of the Boys that failed is back at school or have some arrived back during this week.
@Rockspider: Sh1t, really? That many?WOW!That is a concern though, no matter how one looks at it.
How many matrics wrote?
@QC86: To my knowledge 6 out of 72 failed.
@Rockspider: blah blah blah
@QC86.
11 Failed. At least all grade 12 wrote the exams. It’s very hard. Remember most boys that moved to Dale in the past came from Xhosa speaking schools. Starting English at a very late stage is very difficult. Lots of them then move on a few years later with very good scholarships to good schools. 2 have left to Kingswood and 2 to Southdowns just in the last 2 weeks.
Is it true that QC Boys withdrew from final exams and a now they can do the year over at QC without the school showing a fail. Think this is the way to go .
Congrats to JP and Josh. See they made Tuks young guns sides. everyone at Hangklip and QC must be so proud. ( Queenstown) Old Queenstown residents son also made the Maties side. Inus Pretorius . He is Uncle Tokkie Dysels grandson. Insidently his parents also went to Hangklip.
@Playa: do you know how many matrics failed at Dale 2012??
@QC86: Hahahahaha!You’ve gone soft.
@rugbyfan: ask playa what their pass rate was last year,and the same is happening at Queens,more to school than rugby,can’t believe i just wrote that
@QC86: Care to give reason why not?
@rugbyfan: no
@QC86: Would you send them to Queens
@Queenian: 2 are at selborne and 1 at the sharks academy
@QC86: Were are your kids at school
@rugbyfan: Ye Selborne will be a completely different side compared to last year
@QC86: Agree with you Selborne will be a fastly improved side compared to last year
@rugbyfan: selborne are going to have a good first team this year, but my heart will always be at QC, i can assure you,if they maintain their integrity
@Ludz: @Playa: I am sure QC86 will not supporting Queens
@Queenian: @Queenian: @Ludz: LOL! You guys sound like the end of the world was near.I’m glad there’s more clarity and QC will not be losing their financial support from QC86.
@QC86: me and you both
@QC86: Mean Queens
@Queenian: nobody missing from selborne
@QC86: Is there a prop missing from the Under 13 team from last year as it looks like he is at Grey PE
@Queenian: i cannot tell you how happy i am to hear that
@QC86: Well on the Zim boys i can tell you this it had nothing to do with the normal recruit process the one boy from Zim father works for a old Queenian there who sponsered him coming to Queens so no strange stuff there the other boy i still dont have the detail yet but i can tell he was not given a busary through the normal channels.
So in no way did Queens go out and target these boys.
Since 2006 Dale college has produced SA schools scrumhalves Sihunu, Kobese, Nyoka, Rick, Tile. Not bad for a school that is being milked by these other schools.
@QC86 100% in Agreement. I believe boys should move befor under 16. It would be best if they come in grade 8 or even in junior school.
Aother question. perhaps someone can clarify.
Can someone please explain what rules Border Rugby / SA Rugby apply?
Kids that indicate sighing for another Province after School will not be considered for Border . Understand that one. Does it apply to all the Provinces?
Can Foreign kids selected or can’t they. What is Borders ruling on this? Can people without South African Citizenship represent a Province within South Africa during Craven Week?
Would it then be acceptable to bring in 15 Boys from NZ, AUS, Nam, Zim and Samoa during grade 12 and select them for the Provincial Side?.
@Rockspider: i have been over this a thousand times,i don’t care where the kid comes from,but if he joins a school in matric and then miraculously plays for the firsts ,i have a problem,we are then playing boys that are not products of our school and thus is false,and we are taking away an opportunity from one of our own,and what message does that send to the boys in the lower sides.30 years ago we had boys from zim and zambia,but they got to Queens in grade 8 and left with us in matric as fully fledged old boys,i had no problem with that.
@QC86 No Jokes.
The Boys are only considering schooling in South Africa. Believe most top schools in South Africa is a better option and worth considering.
If South Africa had regulations in place to stop foreign kids from schooling in South Africa it would have been an issue. Imagine all the kids from Namibia in the Western Cape and even NTVL Schools.
Wonder how many kids in the Private Schools like St Andrews, Kingswood , Hilton etc are not South African. How many at University students are not South African. Hell my Roommate was from Zim 20 odd years ago.
The one boy that left last year after spending 3 years at Dale is at UCT this year studying Law . He was included in the Varsity Cup Young Guns side for the 2013 season. Clearly his Zim background didn’t bother the University from granting him access to study and play rugby for them. Same rules apply for schooling.
Can we call someone being pouched if he is paying 100% of his school and hostel fees? Recruited perhaps but not pouched.
@Playa: still hoping it’s a bad April fools joke
@QC86: Fair enough
@Playa: two wrongs don’t make a right,i have always believed in integrity and a school to maintain it’s integrity in times of difficulty,the school moto, to be rather than to seem to be ,and if someone in charge can make a decision like that he should be fired
@QC86: LOL! I am not glossing it at all.I am on record as saying that I am not in favour of recruiting late.However, all I pointed out was that late recruitment is a consequence of this large scale poaching that is happenning in schoolboy rugby.Schools who lose players late due to poaching are likely to start recruiting late.And Zim seems to be the place to go.As I said last year, a lot of schools will follow suit.Last year Dale got the bashing, this year both QC and Dale will get the bashing, and more schools will do it.I dont support it.In yester-year, it was post matrics, that seems to have been wiped out.This will also get out of hand,and will come to an end.
What is needed is regulation on this poaching business.Unions must stay out of anything to do with the recruitment of boys.Schools must not offer scholarships/bursaries etc to boys older than 15.
I would suggest that you dont stop supporting QC, as disappointed as you may be,but rather help out in addressing whatever it is that is missing and hence leading to these measures being taken by the school.I am doing the same at Dale.
@QC86: LOL! Im not glossing anything.
I’m on record saying I am not a fan of late recruit, however I do understand the circumstances.It is unfortunately where the game is going with all this mass poaching happening.In the old days, schools used to get post-matrics, now that that has been sort of ruled as ”illegal” schools take matrics.That said, this is unsustainable,and you are right, it is a form of cheating.In my view, poaching is a form of cheating in itself, but thats a story for another day.
I did say this last year, that what Dale did, is what other schools are going to start doing in future.It is unfortunate that it is QC that follows suit.But believe me, in 2-3 years, this is going to be the norm, unless the powers that be regulate this insane poaching of players in high school.It is even going to get worse now that unions are doing the poaching.
QC86 – lets find out all the facts first…please – u do a great job for QC and we need to keep on going. QC86 have you met the Hoof?
@QC86: yeah that’s what we’ve always stood, we develop our own talent, really not happy with this recruiting of Zimbabwean boys
@Ludz: that is crap,can’t believe QC is doing that,that is the end of my financial support,we play with what we got,i will not be like playa and gloss this over,develop young or it is cheating and i will not stand for it
@QC86: not sure what their ages are, but Loesty tells me 1 is in matric
@Ludz: how old are they,what grades?
@Queenian: I’m afraid it’s true, worried about the boys who’ll miss out because of them
@Ludz: Did you anything about the 2 Zim boys or is that rubbish
@QC86: are you gonna be at the service? Queen’s has my old email address, think I should go update my detail at the old boys office
@Ludz: Tony Greig memorial is on Sunday 20th at 10.30am school hall,got old boys e mail yesterday.spoke to grant and nobody knowes of a u16 boy that has gone to the western cape or queens
@Queenian: was there this morning, had about half an hour chat with Mr Loest in his office, he seems to know nothing about the Selborne boy, but he told me that we had lost 2 of our u13A side last year, I believe 1 is a prop, not sure which position the other 1 is
I wasn’t aware of Tony Greig’s memorial service, I will ask Mr Loest again. As for reunion, I hope I will be there, all depends on what varsity dishes up for me. If I have the time I will definitely be there.
Met the new headmaster as well this morning and we had a brief 20 minute chat, from those few minutes I could see we had a winner, he’s a top man and I can see Queen’s is in capable hands
Oh I misunderstood you Rockspider.I thought you were talking about the last year’s under 14 group
@Queenian: What ever happened to the NZ kid that was supposed to come to Queens for year on an exchange program.
@Rockspider: Are you speaking about Zim boys and what ages are the two that have arrived at Queens
@Rockspider: Tell me you’re joking
@Playa Only 3 Boys arrived already. The other 2 will be at QC this year.
@Queenian: Athi Halom (outside center) and Lutho Nomoyi (wing). Both to Kingswood.
@Ludz: I see there will be a memorial service at Queens for Tony Greig not sure when. Tony Greig played lock for Queens 1st in 1965.
@Playa: I think Dale and Queens should enter the lotto to raise busary funds.
@Playa: It looks that way what under 14 boys moved.
@rugbyfan: Yeah. There are 2 old Dalians who had been sponsoring these boys to come to Dale.I think this particular kid was at St John’s (Zimbabwe) and they wanted to keep him,so the price must have been too ridiculous to move him.
We’ll have to make do with what we have.
@rugbyfan: Or simply call them Pansy High
@Ludz: Try and find out was there a kid who left for Grey PE and is it true that one kids has come up from Selborne.
@rugbyfan: They can try as hard as they want they will not drag Queens or Dale down.
@Ludz: You going to be at reunion this year so we can finally meet i will be there out of school 30 years this year.
@Playa: heard by the Grape vine that the sponsorship was not raised. Not sure but that could be the case.
You know it is such a great shame that every second post you see is of some boy been poached from Dale or Queens, shows you what quaility they do produce as after all this they still manage to be competive.
Just worry how long Dale can stay competive with this happening, simalar to the 12 kids over a few years that left Queens in the early 2000,s for College it took Queens years to recover from that.
@kcman: Hey your team might have to put a small Dale Badge on there right arm next year.
@Rockspider: One of these days with the amount of Queens Old boys kids at Grey PE they will have to change there trading name to Queens Talent trading as Grey PE PTY LTD
Last year i watched Grey PE teams play a lot and there were quite a few Queenian kids there even the Captain of the 1st Team.
@Rockspider: Any news on the Zim boy that was supposed to join Dale this year?Has he come through?
@kcman: I hope they do well.
Always felt Murray should have chosen rugby instead of cricket after school. He is one of the most talented schoolboy flyhalves I have ever seen.Had the size to match as well.
@kcman Interesting. They both played Border Rugby, Hockey and Cricket.
Dale always loose a large percentage of Jnr School Boys. they tried to keep this group together but it’s clearly impossible. Just start over and develop more boys for others to envy within a year or so.
QC also lost a under 14 Backline player to Grey PE. So you gain some and loose some. Selborne got all the Boys back.
@Rockspider: I heard the two Dale Boys followed Murray Ranger, who is the new High Performance Cricket Coach at Kingswood. Murray is also an Old Dalian.
@rugbyfan: 11 PLAYERS!!!!! Thats insane!!!!
@Rockspider: We’ve lost Lutho and Athi!!!!????!!!
This is terrible
@Rockspider: am I following correctly here, is a Selborne boy at Queen’s this year?
@Playa I only herd of these 3 to date. Mafu went up North, Lutho Nomoyi and Athil Halom went to Kingswood. Still a huge loss to Dale and gain to Kingswood. These Boys played Border Rugby, Rugby7s, Hockey and Cricket. Herd the grade 8 group will have good gains.
@ Rugbyfan. Under 15 or 16. Perhaps QC86 can confirm. He looked good in his QC uniform.
@Playa: I heard from a source in King that between Under13/14/15/16 Dale has lost 11 players that were there last year which is shocking how other schools can simply “rape’ Dale and Queens in this way is really disgusting.
Not sure how Selborne has avoided this but i do know that one of there Under16 of 2012 was offered a busary at Bishops not sure what happened.
@rugbyfan: I’ll try find out more about the Zimbabweans, must say it’s very new to me though
Yeah, Elano is something special
@Rockspider: How old is this Sean kids is he starting now
@Rockspider: I thought there were 4 leaving already, and then add these 2 you have just mentioned and that would be 6. I hope I am the ill-informed one.Not that it’s nice losing players in the first place.But at least there are some gains being made.
How does Selborne avoid this exodus?They need to share their secret.
Well the one Boys already started at QC ( Sean ) and my informer said another one is on his way. Dales Under 13s all went up to the College in 2012. The have also gained Boys in 2012. Only 3 have indicated that they will be going away in 2013. Thats 3 of the 8 Border under 13 players. And they are going to school in BB and EPCD Country. Loss for Border. Lets see who els will be moving around within the Border tomorrow.
@Ludz: Good to see Delano Smith still there i saw him play last year he is a Bok in the making. Pity about Ashton Fortuin he would have given the Queens pack some good grunt this year. Hopefully Queens get a chance to play Southdown and shove it down there throats.
Plz check on the Zim boy story
@Playa: Ye looks like Queens/Dale are becoming talent pools for other schools
@rugbyfan: looks like Dale has started yet another trend
@Rockspider: Zim boys joining QC?Interesting…
Mafu leaving for Southdowns???WTF????
With these under 14 boys leaving for Kingswood,seems Dale has pretty much lost everyone from the awesome 2011 Under 13A team.
You have just killed my day Rockspider.
@Rockspider: Ye speaking about that i heard the rumour the other day that there were 2 Under 16 and 2 Under 17 Zim boys going to Queens how true that is i am not sure maybe we should ask Queenian although i know he is away for a few days.
Ludz: please check on this and see if its true when i spoke to Queenian yesterday he did not say anything but said look out for a surprise pacakage so lets see.
Well u gain some and u loose some. Keep a lookout for the Zim Boys that joined QC. Pure class. I big gain for Border Rugby. Mafu from Dale College apparently also joined Southdowns. I Big loss. Border Schools Under 12,13 and 7s. Herd 2 other Dale under 14 Boys w ill be moving to Kingswood. EPCD must be smiling. Love to find out who all moved between schools within the Eastern Cape.
@QC86:
Hahahaha!
@Hustle: he would not make the team because he is to young
@Hustle: Hahahahahaha! I would fit right in there mate.
@beet: That last point is debatable. When Gcobani Bobo left Dale for Rondebosch in 1996 it was under similar circumstances, even thought contracting high school boys was unheard of in those days.WP wanted Bobo to be blooded at Craven Week level while they were interested in his long term service.An arrangement was made to place him at Rondebosch and voila!There were 2 other boys who were snatched by WP straight from Dale Junior to serve a similar purpose.
The Border undertaking has definitely made things worse, especially with how professionalised SBR has become.It will only be downhill from here.
@beet: This has to be the most mind boggling ‘rugby’ move ever!Shame on the Bulls!!!!
@beet
first thanks for post, you are obviously in tune with what going on. I live far away and out of touch but love to follow schools results etc.
It will pain me to say this but was very proud of Dale results last, year and even more proud of the Queenians.
Wether it is a transformation issue, or a wealth issue, or a future issue, or a legal issue the under pinning should be to keep a happy kid, and from reading the blog this kid appears to be unhappy.
Blue Bulls should do what is right for the player, not just themselves.
Border rugby needs to take ownership and not be so flippant in there approach.
I don’t have any issues with union approaching players while still at school, and in my opinion can sign a contract but only after they finish grade 12.
Queenian don’t be to hard on yourself, I think Queens have done the right thing you have some new leadership at the helm that will pay the school dividends. Thanks for you ongoing efforts.
@ Playa I heard that you may be hitting the u14 trials this year? Any truth…ha ha 8)
@Hustle: The problem with what you propose is there are no guarantees and what RU’s want is assurances. Ploughing money into a school or even giving a schoolboy a “school contract” and paying him some pocket money does not bind him to any agreement. I found the latter out via the Stefan Ungerer example. However I have been reliably informed that if the 17yo or younger player and his parent/guardian jointly sign a contract for that player to play for a Union after school, it is legal and enforceable. I imagine that both JP Smith and Josh Stander and their respective parents signed contracts with the Bulls. Therefore the Bulls had assurances and were content.
But there are 2 things different about this current situation.
The first is new and unique to Border. If a player signs with another RU he is immediately excluded from Border Craven Week team. Also in terms of SARU’s rules if a player wants to sign with another RU, the home RU (in this case Border) has to be informed first. There is no way of keeping this kind of agreement a secret without breaking the rules.
The second is a little controversial but I believe it’s true. With the quota system in place at Craven Week and a few Union’s struggling to get the desired results out of their local development programmes, they turn to importing players of colour. The Boland has been a good source. Now they have struck gold in the EC. With a Boland recruit, opportunity exists to improve a youngster’s future prospects with better schooling and coaching (some will argue against this opinion I’m sure). However it’s hard to see how they can improve on what Queens has to offer.
So first finger needs to be pointed at Border Rugby. Other pointer finger at the transformation process.
In a sense the quota system drives development in every region but rich unions are in a position to bypass genuine efforts to develop local players by simply buying them in.
So the question is really if Border had relaxed it’s Craven Week inclusion ruling, would the player in question have stayed at his E/Cape school? Or would there still have been pressure from the rich union to move him to their region in order to boost their CW chances?
Next worry, a complete breakdown in the relations between QC and the Bulls over this matter, results in the Bulls not taking QC into consideration the next time they approach a player from the school.
Was there not another fellow in the last decade, that ended up at Pretoria Boys high, I think one of his folks was American or something like that he started at QC – and then was poached…thought his name was fudge
I think its ok, to approach a 16 year old and indentify them as a “prospect” – in other words we want to work with you, however only after they have finished there schooling……in the same way as Stander and Smith went to Bulls, after they matriculated.
If the Bull’s wants why not invest directly in Queens College, and you can have players for there union for generations…..
@Playa: It is a big WOW! I sometimes do not know whether to criticise the Bulls or praise their work. To me it seemed like the Bulls were in a race to acquire this player. There was interest from 2 other regions and it’s reasonable to believe that this other interest either stemmed from or was backed by RU support in those regions. So for the Bulls to get his signature was a mission accomplished BUT to get the youngster to agree to go from Queens College to Southdowns must have required sheer genius. I don’t want to disrespect Southdowns but it’s becoming evident that they are starting to play a vital role in the Bulls recruitment drive.
If Aston’s parents were a little more brushed up on the SBR situation they probably could have got him into Hilton College free of charge. It’s unlikely this would have come with any pocket money or post-school promises though.
@beet: WOW!
@Playa: Believed to be Southdowns
@Ludz: Which school has Fortuin gone to?
I think my opinion no matter the talent, it is still much better to conclude your schooling from where you came. At the end of the day, if the talent is that good or immense you will have multiple options – in the future. During the year this individual would have had the opportunity to showcase his skills thought tournaments, and would generate more interest.
At the end of the day, it almost feels like this fellow was stolen from QC, I am thinking that it’s the parent’s responsibility – and perhaps some coaching could have been applied to the parents….Now this guy is locked into contract, he is a Queenian….I am afraid he may just be swallowed up, by some fast talking car salesman.
Nice blog men
@rugbyfan: @Queenian: I was there about 2 hours ago, unfortunately he did not arrive, spoke to Mr Osborn and he said it was unfortunate, but we had to move on and build on what we had. Totally agree with him, it looks like Aston is definitely gone
Relieved to see a young man by the name of Elano Smith among the grade 8s today, he was too good last year, number of schools must’ve offered him bursaries
@Ludz: @rugbyfan:
Rugbyfan: Not sure been to tied up to find out all i can tell you as at last Friday Queens had not received official notification that Fortuin was actually leaving.
Ludz: Maybe you can try and find out from somebody there if he actually did not arrive today or is he there.
Rugbyfan: Sorry i dont have the answer when this whole thing surfaced a week ago it made me so negative i have just with drawn for a bit to level my head.
@Ludz: @Queenian: Any news on were that Fortuin kid has gone and seen it is first day back for Queens today anybody else missing.
@BOG: is there anything that I could tell you about Grey that you don’t already know
@Ludz: There you have it . That an OG should teach you something about Queens. You now owe me something about Grey which I did not know
@Queenian: Thanks, I knew that my memory was not fading that fast. I just could not remember the name of the club.Apart from Swifts, did QT not also have a Villagers club? I remember the Weakly?? twins playing for Border/Swifts at centre, both OQs. Did Bull Edwards, Jnr Bok, not also play for them. He is the bloke who was murdered on the Wild Coast a few years ago
@BOG: @Ludz: Bog you are right Queens bought the REC centre only in 1986 before that they had it on a 50 year lease bases from the Border Rugby Union Swifts rugby club also used it as there base. In the 60,s this was also used as the second base for Border rugby hard to believe this was a Currie Cup field and they were in the A div in those days.
I even remember watching Border play Transvaal at the Rec in 1972.
And it has changed a lot since our days in the old days it had 2 Rugby fields next to each other that has changed it now has the Track around the one field and the Hockey Astro next to that and the Swimmingpool complex which is going to be redone as a lot of work is needed there also there is a open area below that which is currently not used which the plan is to build a staff housing complex.
Ye and with the Rec Queens now has 89 hectares which is the Junior and Senior School
@Ludz: I know that Queens have used the Rec for many years, but I am talking about OWNERSHIP. I am almost convinced that they only took ownership in recent times (20-30 yrs)
@BOG: as far as I know Queen’s were beating teams at the Rec in the 80s, when Queenian, QC86, Rugbyfan etc were still schooboys and the Rec belongs to Queen’s
@GreenBlooded: You guys are out of touch- use the pavement area. Everyone else does, even in the city!
@Queenian: Small towns like Bloem, I guess. Grey has 61 hectares in a city, a small farm almost. No, they are most fortunate having been there for 166 yrs. Bloem then, was a small town. Did Queens not only acquire the Rec in recent times?- in the last 20 yrs or so? As far as I can remember, it belonged to one of the towns clubs.I have not been there for many years, and what I can remember, is the rock hard surface of the pitch. How has the Rec changed and what does it consist of now?
@GreenBlooded: Schools in smaller towns always seemed to have bigger ground because there was no space issue
@Ludz: Not too familair with the Queens campus but yes – Glenwood has a problem with space being an inner city school. DHS has the same problem. I remember we used to marvel at the campus when we went to schools like College and the privates. Still I think we do very well with what we have.
@BOG: I saw a bit of the Glenwood-Grey game, think it ended in a draw, but the Glenwood boys were batting very well when I left.
Glenwood boys were very impressed by the facilities, kept on saying how much they wished Glenwood had all the facilities
@BOG: In that case i month they nearly 1 Billion un-accountant for this year so could easly be done
@star: Good one
@ Bog- I picked up that Westville beat both Selborne and Queens on twitter. Maybe Queenian can help get the results as I think the GW guys would also be interested. I am surprized that DHS has been dropped. Maybe it has something to do with all those marked vehicles that cruise the area. Just kidding H/F 1.
@Queenian: 250 should not be a problem at all- just appoint a clerk in Bisho as fundraiser. And your goal should be achieved in ONE year
@GreenBlooded: You wont believe that our target is to raise 250 million within 10 yrs so lets see what happens.
@star: Ye Queens has great facilities and i think with the right backing can stay a top school the last 18 months we have raised 4,8 million so far so we hope to keep things going that is why this story with Aston Fortuin blows my mind.
What school is this Queens boy going to? Why is it such a secret? Clearly it is not Glenwood or it would have been mentioned in the article.
@star: I notice that GCB is having an easy match today,
but what was the result yesterday against Glenwood? And on Saturday, they are playing Dale. Where are the results?
@ Queenian- on a completely diffrent note the Queens U15 cricket tourno is on at the moment and the Westville boys are doing really well. I was down last year watching my son and was blown away by the facilities and hospitality. I especially enjoyed the pub on the main oval with the “honor” system. After a good ten beers I am not sure how much honor was left but I can say that no money was lost on us. I cannot speak for the DHS boys though
@Playa: Could not agree with you more
@Ludz: Border, though one can understand where they’re coming from, need to have the brains to know that they must get their house in order first.Instead of jumping on the Kings’ bandwagon and using that platform to clean up their house,they resort to irrational bullying tactics.What is happening with Fortuin is only the beginning.Selborne, Queens and Dale are already battling to attract boys from outside the EC.Now they’ll be losing the relatively small pool they have been attracting.
Border need to partner schools and not alienate them.That is the only way that commercial backing will flow and therefore the means to attract players with lucrative packages.Add the prospect of playing Super 15 for the Kings (if they hang on long enough), and you can offer a bright future to a young boy.But these fools can’t think beyond the tip of their noses. That is when the big unions will pounce.This is going to kill our schools, our efforts to better our schools,but most importantly the boys affected
@Playa: @Queenian: @rugbyfan: yeah it’s sad, you only have to look a Griffy leaving to see what this is doing to our schoolboy rugby. We’ll lose more players because of Border’s stupid decision, think approaching boys in their matric year is the only solution
@Queenian: That i agree with that
@Playa: Ye after Craven Week would be the answer
@Queenian: I agree. I have always said that unions should have no business with schoolboys while at school.Boys should only be available for contracting post Craven Week in their matric year.
It is evil to offer contracts to 15/16 year olds.
@Playa: Ye Ye
@Muzi: Border were never going to match the Bulls offer, so no need to drag the kid out of his comfort zone like this.Its hectic enough trying to control inter-schools poaching,but now unions are going into this and blackmailing kids out of schools like this.Its disgusting.
@GreenBlooded: Not 100% sure that was being kept under wraps the last discusion i had with the people involved it looked like either PBH or Affies but know body is certain that was not given to us as the contract as on Monday had not been signed. The kids is fluent in both languages.
@Muzi: Call it what you want i think there is a big enough problem between schools already now unions get involved does not help. And dont get me wrong i have know objection with this kid going to the Bulls acdemy but him having to change schools is really dumb.
What school is he going to?
@beet: Ye the problem is the Border RU and i think there could be a big list of departures in the Border schools i do know that a Under 16 kid at Selborne was also been targeted by WP wonder what will happen there what makes it worse he,s dad is a Old Queenian.
I do believe the easiest way to avid this problem is that know unions should be allowed to contract kids to there union till Grade 12 that would stop this problem getting worse. What we do about schools doing it i am not sure.
@Playa:
“financed human trafficking” is that the new term for poaching schoolboyrugby players now?
@ Queenian
This is truly one of the most tragic situations I have heard of where this subject is concerned.Now a young boy heads off to Pretoria, to play for a school he is probably only 25% keen to play for.God knows what other politics he’ll come across there (kids can be mean)…the pressure to perform as his future at the Bulls will undoubtedly be on the line if he doesnt perform.First time being away from his parents,new environment, new culture…and he still has to pass his matric.Biggest loser here is Quinton Fortuin.Absolutely tragic!!!Adults need to be adults and put an end to this financed human trafficking.
@Queenian: Give his parents a course on how the world of pro rugby operates and the kinds of things scouts will say and do. At least then they can make an informed decision. Not sure what you can do about the Border RU tho. I get the bad feeling that if a boy isn’t intent on going to the Border Rugby Academy after school, they don’t care how soon he leaves.
Now the big question will be how long will the under 14 boy Smith still be at Queens. Must be there best centre i have seen at junior school level in my life he scored 57 tries in one season last year which must be a record.
We have already had to keep the Wolves at bay
What would be nice is if on monday he actually arrive at Queens and have turned this down well miracles happen.
@rugbyfan: Thanks well not sure the plan has always been to make that decision a year before the time ye but after this it makes you wonder.
Well when this happens you just want to give up, but ye presently trying to raise money for a kid to go to Queens in 2014 so i will give it a week or two and then see how i feel.
I know people say but this is only one kid but think about this he was really talented and this year with the other lock at Queens they would have had one of the best lock pairings in SA and that will make a huge difference which they needed some decent size forwards to compete.
@Queenian: Personel question mate i know your son is not at Queens but you had planned to send him there in Grade 10 with this happening will you still do that. I watched him playing last year against Kingswood and he must be one of the better 8th mans i have seen at Under 11 level so good luck to you.
@BOG: You right about Queenstown its like going through rural Congo. I do think what has happened with this kid leaving Queens is a great shame as i have watch alot of there sport the last few years and they realy seemed to be coming back to maybe not a top 5 rugby school but say at least a top 20 school.
Funny when you look back if we were having this conversation say in 1990 and someone ask you who the top 5 rugby schools were Queens would have been there. Not saying there sport is that bad they must still be one of the top cricket and hockey schools in the country and in athletics one of the top 5 still to this day.
But as we must all be realistic things do change and i hope they can keep themselfs up there.
Just wonder what affect this has on those people who are trying there level best to keep there schools going at a top level.
@BoishaaiPa: Like so often before, you are missing the point. As I pointed out, I acknowledged that an approach was made, but after discussing it with the Queens interests, they withdrew- that is acknowledging boundaries and reflects decency. This, despite that area being within GCBs “catchment” area- for decades. The BBs have no boundaries and it would seem that WP are close on their heels when it comes to plundering the resources and talent in Boland. Another issue, is that unions are forced to do this to meet the colour requirements laid down by SARU. Its only in Border and Boland, and to a lesser extent, EP, where, among the players of colour, rugby is preferred to soccer. That is reality. When did this “pitching up in Bloem on their own accord” stop? This was certainly the case in my days. With me, were kids from all over the country and even beyond and we were not “recruited”. If Im wrong, I missed out. But I do recognize that things have changed, but within reason. I still believe that Grey receives a large spontaneous interest(And I would never question that kind of wisdom) Gungets Tuft rightly points out the “infrastructural” challenges in PMB. Has anyone passed through Queenstown recently, down the main street, around freedom square, which was the Hexagon? But its not just these two centres- even Eskom has expressed concerns about the condition of the electricity distribution networks (municipalities) and a lot worse is to come- guaranteed! Because of the vrtual collapse of the educational system, its almost impossible to send a kid to a rural school in the NE Cape or FS
@Ploegskaar: Umbilo and Glenwood have been the landing ground for criminals driven from the Point by the waterfront development. I know, I tried to track down a stolen cell phone which I had traced to a little “kuka shop” at the Queensborough Mall. Spoke to the cops, they laughed and laughed and laughed, then told me I was on my own, no way were they going down there.
Power anywhere is an issue. When I am not patrolling the highways I interest myself in standbye power stuff. The demand for generators (for standbye and to supplement peak power) is on the up, as are high end UPS solutions. Such is life. PMB had a nice big power outage on the last Monday of term, all the eastern suburbs. A friend in Paarl was out for 3 days I think.
College will survive, and prosper, but it is an active effort, not a reliance on history.
@GreenBlooded: PMB sounds a bit like Paarl, but there should be no worries about the future of MC, as both Paarl Gym and Boishaai have survived and thrived despite the fact that they are located in the arsehole of the winelands region.
@Gungets Tuft: You are right – Maritzburg is a disaster. I hear there was no electricity in the city for a few days over Christmas – difficult conditions to school under especially in summer where Maritzburg is a hot box. I have inside knowledge of the electricity supply industry (Maritzburg Metro as well) and I can tell you that things will get much worse before (if) they get better so I hope they have a decent generator with a very big fuel tank. I think a great school trying to survive in a dead and dysfunctional town is ultimately unsustainable. Glenwood are in the same boat – once a upper-middle class neighbourhood it is becoming a cess pool especially in the Clark / Moore Rd area which I think has taken over from Point road as the prostitution hub of Durban. I think it will be difficult to survive long term – more affluent parents will not be willing to send there kids into a slum even though there might be a diamond in the middle. Something tells me that the EC schools will have the same problem.
@Gungets Tuft: Ye Queens is simalar but what does not help us is what just happened with this kid as we do have quite a large draw area which we share with Grey Bloem being the Southern Free State and North East Cape which they are winning hands down. Was actually with a Old Queenian the other day who live near Bethulie thats next to the Gariep dam who has 3 youg sons who is now cosidering sendig them to Grey Bloem.
So ye thats what happening and the more things like this happen the harder it is to convince those people to send there kids to Queens.
@BoishaaiPa: Agreed there i am activily involved in recruiting for Queens and keeping kids at the school.
I just think it is way it is done that needs to be looked at, the push at Queens is currently to get Old Boys kids back to the school and to recruit sportsman from schools who do not have rugby as there main sports objective. I will go as far as to tell you there are currently 10 kids at Queens that are on Bursaries that have been recruited in 2010 and 2011. Of these 5 are son of Old Queenians and 5 are from mainly black schools in the boarder area except one who was recruited from George from a township school.
Of the 5 boys recruited of Old Boys sons 1 was at Selborne Juinor(Grade 8) 2 brothers from Grey PE ( 1 x Grade 8 1 x Grade 10) 1 from i think St Davids in JHB in Grade 8 and 1 from Burgersdorp. Also 2 busaries have been given two 2 kids who were at Queens Junior to block offers from other schools.
We also have started a “Bring Them Home” campain which is aimed at trying to get at least 5 boys back a year who are son of Old Boys. This was started last year as we realised that in the period 2008 to 2012 there had been 28 sons of Old Boys playing for 1st teams of other schools like Selborne/Grey PE/Kes/St Andrews/Grey Bloem and even 1 at Bishops
So i think with a clear plan in mind recruiting is not bad but when it becomes hey there 5 million go and bye the best team that is shocking.
@Queenian: Perhaps, and to a degree. Nobody is going to be able to verify the extent to which the Sharks are actually placing kids in schools, or influencing the parents decision. I do know that recruiters from schools are happy to point out that if your boys is in Durban then their chances are better of getting noticed, and some even go so far as to point out that they are closely aligned with the Sharks and therefore able to influence. On the other hand, you could argue that College hockey has the advantage of having a national selector as a 1st team coach. Hockey is different to rugby because there is no money in hockey so selectors, coaches and players all need to have day jobs to survive, but the theory stands. College has the other downside of being in PMB which lurches from disaster to disaster socio-politically, industry is shrinking, the available pool of talented people is doing the same. I think it is probably true to say that the more affluent (to a limit) families produce the more talented kids. We can start a little anthropological thread to discuss that one – starting with parents having time for development at an early age, money for specialist coaches, simple stuff. In a shrinking town .. well. College is not going to change those circumstances, they are changing their modus operandi, it is better than moaning about it and at least gets things done. The upside is that College is the single drawcard school for miles and miles, so it is a focus of Midland talent that cannot afford Hilton or House and do not get offered bursaries.
By all reports this year is going to be an interesting one. The beginning of rugby season is going to start a sh#tstorm when teams are announced. Look what the arrival of one or two did last year … might just turn out to be mickey mouse compared to 2013.
@BOG: re the “poaching”..you must stop living like an ostrich and get your head out of the sand!…Dont believe that everyone just pitches up in Bloem out of their own accord! I can introduce you to OG’s who are actually activly involved in recruiting…There is nothing wrong with it, just stop denying it happens beacuse it does!
@BOG: Agreed there about the two schools always had a lot of pride and mutual respect me coming from a family that has members who have been to both schools.
There were at least 3 RU’s after this boy. None of them seemed like they wanted to take the chance and wait til he matriculated. 2 things that stand out tho are:
1. Parents not understanding the situation properly – even if the Bulls offer expired, they were bound to put another offer on the table.
2. The Border RU’s Craven Week policy which will continue to drive aspiring young players out of the region until it’s changed back to what it was before.
I hope the major schools in the region treat this as the final straw and make decisions based on their own best interests. The RU has clearly let them down.
I encourage all parents of players thinking about giving a career in rugby a shot after school to educate themselves now. Find knowledgeable people you can trust to get sound advice. Then share your newly found knowledge with other parents who are or will be in the same boat as you. Soon you’ll be streetwise and no one will be able to fool you with lip service. If an RU approaches you, do yourself a favour, hire an agent but make sure he has integrity and is not some sleazy liar just out to make a quick buck.
I am very pleased that an agreement was reached between GCB and Queens on this issue. There has always been a mutual respect and a healthy competition between the two schools. They share the same feeder area, NE Cape, ie Molteno,Burgersdorp, Tarkastad, Barkly East, Lady Grey. Elliot and Ugie and although many went to one or the other school, they always seem to remain good friends. In my case, my brother-in-law too, is an old Queenian. Even though I believe that the Blue Bulls, with the schools as their accomplices, are crossing the clear lines of basic decency, ultimately, the Border Schools union has created this mess by refusing to select players who have committed themselves to another union after school, and they should accept responsibility.But I doubt if that will happen and sadly, I dont think that Queens will be allowed to affiliate to either FS or EP. Kick out the fools who are in “control” of Border Schools!!
@Queenian: I agree, think it’s time to say goodbye to Border and join up with EP Rugby for us, someone last year said that this would happen, now it’s happened and the only losers are gonna be the schools who will lose all their quality players after u16
@Gungets Tuft: I think MC has suffered a bit of the same thing being away from the main centre of there union.
@Gungets Tuft: Ye agree there have been i think 4 kids at Queens in the last few years that were signed to play for the Bulls the only issue is i think what the Border union has done as atually, falling in to these big union hands and now even get the kids at grade 11 stage.
The other option would be that schools like Queens ask to be part of say Free State or Eastern Province instead of Border as it is the same distance from all 3 cities basically.
@Queenian: Sounds a little to me that certain schools are at risk of renaming themselves “Blue Bulls Academy Preparatory High School” .. or “Sharks Academy Prep”.
Shaky ground that – I can see more and more schools declining to play against the manufactured teams which can be seen as “junior academy”. It will lead to another league completely – academy vs academy, where it is well known that academics are secondary to the rugby career choice (don’t argue – we already hear about cases where folks blackmail schools to “pass” their kids or they will take them to another school).
All just an injury away from the welfare queue. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
@Queenian: Hey that is a bummer so schoolboy rugby has another dark moment what are thoughts going forward.
Now who loses in a case like this:
1. The Kid himself when he cannot live out his dream of playing for Queens he also stood a very good chance of being Headboy
2. Queens this kids was a big part of there make up for the next two years and recovery to been were they should be.
3. Border by him not representing there craven week team for the next two years.
4. The Kids family who will now be far away from him.
5. A kid at the school he now goes to will miss out on 1st team rugby
The only people that gain is the Bulls and the School in Pretoria which i have know confirmation yet who it is the Kid is fluent in English and Afrikaans so this could be one of few schools.
@rugbyfan: @beet: Well to say that this is a disaster is putting mildly.
So here we go without letting emotions get in the way this is how this all came about. Firstly this kid was offered a full busary to attend GCB which was sponsered by one of there old boys which after a discussion between GCB old boy and us this was settled like gentleman so thanks to GCB for showing that they are an insitution of honour. Secondly there did arise an issue with a certain Durban school which i will not name which was matched and all looked well. Thirdly and here in the problem when this boy was at the Grant Khomo week he was approached by the Blue Bulls about attending the Bulls Academy after he finished school so all well till that point, now the problem when the contract arrives in late Dec the offer only lasts till the opening of school 2013. Now according to the Border Rugby union a kid must give them first choice to match the offer which in all fairness i doubt they could. But what happens when this kid(Who is a great kid very humble and i really feel sorry for after being put in this position) gets a contract which he cannot say know to and is given 3 weeks before the offer expires when the Bulls know full well the Border union will drag there feet and the contract states that a performance objective is playing at Craven Week. And all of a sudden a busary at a Bulls school suddenly pops up.
What could we do we can give him a full busary to stay but we cannot tell what the Border union will do. Now were else would an aspiring young lock go Border or the Bulls that is a know brainer.
So the result is we have firstly the Border union completely disgracefull and secondly the Bulls union for knowing that Border would not and could not react in that time. (Shame on both of them and the school involved)
The Bulls could have given the whole process more time as Border would not have been able to match this so it smells of more than them just wanting the boy for there academy but there schooling system.
And is this confirmed ye looks like a 90% done deal.
All this kid ever wanted to do was play for Queens and the Bulls and can tell you he aint that happy at the moment.
In one sentence all i can say this makes me sick to the bone.
@The Beast: If he was a “poach” as you suggest, he would not be heading back to PE. He would have been committed. Being a member of the SA U16 squad, will not guarantee him a spot in the first, or even the Cherries side. I have seen provincial players arrive there, and ending up playing 4ths or 5ths. I must say that I dont know about this case or the circumstances because I am not in Bloem. Where did you hear about this?
@Grasshopper:
Yeah but we didn’t touch him. I think. Haha
@Grasshopper:
Yeah but we didn’t touch him. Haha
@HORSEFLY NO.1: Jeez – I’m still guessing. Never heard of a KZN school in Pretoria.
@Horsie, wasn’t there a DHS branded vehicle spotted making the rounds in the Border and EC region recently…..
@beet:
No need to guess which kzn school that is…
Know the boy personally, he arrived at Queen’s when I was in grade 11 in 2010, watched him grow significantly as a player at Queen’s over the last 3 years, was so chuffed for him when he made the SA u16 HP Squad and 1st XV debut last year. Thought he’d play a massive role in the 1st XV over the next 2 seasons
Really disappointed, because he’s a very nice boy, likeable young lad. Would’ve never imagined him leaving Queen’s anytime before matric
@BOG: Seems as though your poach from Grey PE, is headed back to Grey PE.
Flanker……. SA U16 Squad…..
I am certainly not condoning this, but if there is no deep rooted loyalty, this sort of thing will continue to happen. I may sound naive, but I cannot imagine this sort of thing happening at GCB, certainly not in significant numbers. Not even from the “lower” teams.
@rugbyfan: It’s sad coz just last week, from Queenian’s point of view that had seemingly achieved the desired goal of keeping the talent at the school, barring one KZN school that kept on pursuing the player.
I have said this before and I will say it again…professionalism has no place in the schoolboy game.This is just appaling!!!
Our schools and the boys are still going to be great losers the way things are being handled by the “adults” in suits sitting in cosy rugby union offices
beet@ Well i gave Queenian a call and to repeat what came out of his mouth would not be good he said he would post a comment tomorrow morning.
Well this must really be a low point and i him personelly, i know what he personelly has done over the last few years to try and stop the flow of talent out of Queens and the work under way by him and others to keep Queens boys at Queens.
The danger with this type of thing is that here you people trying there hearts out to preserve a great schooling instetution and they just get blown out the water by greed and money and people who cannot think further than there nose.
Beet@ You must be speaking about Forntuin who was at Queens i am sure Queenian will have something to say about this.
If it is true i think this is shocking thing and hope this type of thing ends.
I will give Queenian a call and see if i can get any info i know he was personelly involved in trying to keep this kid at Queens.