Following there 16-9 win in the derby of derbies, Paarl Gymnasium looked to have sealed the deal at no.1 for 2012.
| RANK | 1wk ago | 2wk ago | 3wk ago | SCHOOL | POINTS |
| 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Paarl Gim | 10.796 |
| 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | Affies | 10.550 |
| 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Paarl BH | 10.168 |
| 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | Grey College | 10.166 |
| 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | Outeniqua | 9.941 |
| 6 | 6 | 5 | 6 | Waterkloof | 9.903 |
| 7 | 7 | 7 | 10 | Noord Kaap | 9.585 |
| 8 | 9 | 9 | 12 | Centurion | 9.389 |
| 9 | 11 | 11 | 15 | Dale | 9.359 |
| 10 | 8 | 8 | 8 | Paul Roos | 9.358 |
| 11 | 12 | 15 | 21 | Boland Landbou | 9.338 |
| 12 | 10 | 12 | 9 | Garsfontein | 9.313 |
| 13 | 14 | 17 | 22 | Daniel Pienaar | 9.259 |
| 14 | 13 | 13 | 18 | Michaelhouse | 9.211 |
| 15 | 15 | 18 | 13 | Diamantveld | 9.132 |
| 16 | 20 | 14 | 7 | Grey PE | 9.054 |
| 17 | 16 | 19 | 26 | Voortrekker Bet | 8.997 |
| 18 | 17 | 10 | 14 | KES | 8.961 |
| 19 | 21 | 22 | 19 | Kempton Park | 8.933 |
| 20 | 22 | 27 | 30 | Queens | 8.881 |
| 21 | 19 | 16 | 11 | Framesby | 8.841 |
| 22 | 30 | 29 | 31 | Monnas | 8.796 |
| 23 | 24 | 20 | 23 | Glenwood | 8.790 |
| 24 | 25 | 24 | 27 | Hilton | 8.778 |
| 25 | 28 | 21 | 16 | Wynberg | 8.771 |
| 26 | 23 | 23 | 17 | Kearsney | 8.712 |
| 27 | 18 | 25 | 28 | EG Jansen | 8.694 |
| 28 | 29 | 26 | 32 | Middelburg | 8.689 |
| 29 | 35 | 36 | 29 | Drostdy | 8.627 |
| 30 | 38 | 37 | 43 | Ermelo | 8.597 |
| 31 | 31 | 30 | 24 | Maritzburg College | 8.557 |
| 32 | 32 | 32 | 44 | St Andrews | 8.554 |
| 33 | – | – | – | Pretoria BH | 8.536 |
| 34 | 33 | 38 | 34 | Oakdale | 8.499 |
| 35 | 39 | 34 | 33 | Nico Malan | 8.364 |
| 36 | – | – | – | Ben Vorster | 8.308 |
| 37 | 43 | 40 | 37 | SACS | 8.289 |
| 38 | 36 | 35 | 35 | Westville | 8.278 |
| 39 | 37 | 31 | 20 | Hugenote Well | 8.250 |
| 40 | 34 | 45 | 40 | Middelburg HTS | 8.203 |
| 41 | 40 | 44 | 42 | Transvalia | 8.193 |
| 42 | 42 | 42 | 41 | Menlo Park | 8.091 |
| 43 | – | – | – | Florida | 8.009 |
| 44 | 41 | 39 | 39 | Klerksdorp | 7.969 |
| 45 | 47 | 47 | 47 | Hentie Cilliers | 7.915 |
| 46 | 45 | 46 | 45 | Louis Botha | 7.908 |
| 47 | 46 | 43 | 46 | Sentraal | 7.653 |
| 48 | – | – | – | Hudson Park | 7.555 |
| 49 | 49 | 48 | 48 | Die Brandwag | 7.514 |
| 50 | – | – | – | Jim Fouche | 7.336 |
@Beet, the Jeppe Under14 ‘s are hot so yes they have obviously started their recruitment drive to improve rugga.
@Horsie, in my dad’s day DHS had 11 or 12 open sides, but there were no Under16’s then. Back then you went from Under 15 to Open, tough old times. With 200 odd boys per year DHS should be able to produce 5 sides per age group (80 boys) and 7 open sides at least….
@Grasshopper: Jeppe another good option. Earlier this year Vleis indicated that they were trying to improve their rugby so expect them to become a lot more competitive over the next few years.
@Gungets Tuft:
yah the success of the team is kinda helping. this years u14s are quite good in almost everything beside hockey and the participation levels are also up. i do think the school needs to be a liitle bit more strict on sporting participation and not let it slide. i get that their currently trying to get the A teams right and only then will they worry about depth but still 17 rugga sides is a far cry from what the school used to have!!
I like the idea of a Grey PE fixture! OR Paarl Boys, Paarl Gim and Paul Roos maybe doing a tour here and us down there. But Beet is right, the most realistic ones are PBHS, KES and Affies. Jeppe has close to 1000 boys so should be able to put out 25 teams…..I would love to see Glenwood play PBHS and KES as annual fixtures…
@All Black: Unfortunately I’m informed that Grey PE altho above the E/Cape avg, only push out 22 teams at max. The KZN privates aim at 20 teams (4 per age group + 8 open sides) but not always achieved. So it is difficult to justify traveling 1200kmx2 for just 2 extra games probably being the 9ths and u14E’s, boys who have as much school spirit as those in teams above them but who play rugby purely for the 100% enjoyment.
Pretoria Boys, KES and Affies remain the viable out of province opposition. Grey Bloem is a good option but mainly for the A-teams. Whether or not teams like the 9ths and u14E’s will experience the enjoyment in these outings could be debatable. Some lower team games may even have to be staggered against Grey to avoid cricket scores. This is not a criticism, its a reality.
@HORSEFLY NO.1: The problem is different at College. We see a slow drift away from hockey to rugby. When the kids hit U16 (there is no U15) and suddenly have to play on grass, they lose interest My lightie still sees hockey as his #1 sport but wants to play rugby as well. Being a boarder in Clarks has something to do with it, strong rugby culture there. I agree that every kid should do some sport – chess and drama don’t cut it. The issue is that a lot of kids – and Northwood in particular have this issue, is that kids sometimes have a hours bus ride home and busses are hard to find after practices finish. Perhaps instead of busses travelling from Northwood to Essenwood each way every day, they should be going to Kwa-Mashu Section B every day??
As for the private vs government school debate, I think parents are too easily seduced into thinking that private is always better. My kid is not at College for want of money. If I thought that he was going to be advantaged in the long term by private school that is where he would be. I don’t think that, so he is where he wants to be. There is only 1 private school that made it onto his radar, as a day-boy, and they are not even strong in sport.
Just a comment on that drift away from sport. Don’t you think that the success of the U14’s this year would encourage the kids to stay on. Bluntly put, it must be hard to keep boys interested when they are being clubbed every week. Keep the success levels as high as this year and maybe that is your catalyst?
@Horsie, well those boys should be made to play a sport be it rugby, hockey, cross country or tiddly winks! You cannot have boys not contributing extramurally. Yes, Glenwood may have ‘recruited’ but there is absolutely no way they can compete with the private school offers. If I was a parent and a Hilton scout said we will give your son a 75% bursary so maintain the same spend as you have at the gov school, it’s only obvious parents would pick the private school….it’s a no brainer. Even though I feel gov schools represent real life and sometimes are more balanced. There is no way a gov school can ‘recruit’ from a private school, so whatever incentives/offers are being made they will be to boys at other gov schools, maybe even outside of the province…
@grasshopper
The problem for schools like DHS is to keep boys interested in rugby as they all play it in U14 but slowly quit aftterwards. An example is this years U16s, they had 7 sides in U14, 5 in u15 and only 3 this year. This years U14s had 5 sides and the school has to make sure that the boys play SOMETHING! Too many boys going straight home every single day!
As for the recruiting by Private schools it is a two way thing and also you shouldn’t forget. That Glenwood recruited 5 boys just. For U15 this year mate!
It’ll be interesting to see what everyone ddoes next. Though as schools will staart recruiting for next year etc…
Grey P.E. is another option for bigger schools and travel is not as onerous as Cape Town.
@Gungets Tuft: There is no easy solution unfortunately. Against Affies and Grey College, size is a also an obstacle for lower teams. Possibly opportunity exists for a league or knockout compo in the lower teams???
@beet: Perhaps that is the solution for the 2nd Tier schools. On the weekends that College, Glenwood and Westville play the schools with less depth, the slightly lower teams play the 2nd Tier A and B teams. Even as I say it I know there is a danger to that – even the small schools have a couple of big kids that could play A team at College, introducing the danger of mismatches and injury. I saw this first hand this year when my son was kicked into Mediclinic by a kid twice his size from a small school. If this does not happen then the middle teams lose out – against House and Kearsney the stagger starts at C team hockey where College D play the Kearsney and House C. The College D team don’t get to play.
@All Black: Problem is schools like DHS and Northwood also fit into the Pvt School bracket now. Many of the Gauteng schools like Klofies and Monnas also can’t field that many teams,neither can E/Cape teams like Queens, Dale, Selborne. Times have changed in SA. College, Glenwood, Westvile are fast becoming the exception rather than the norm they once were. PBHS,KES, Affies and Grey Bloem. That’s the logistically feasible market for a KZN team dead set on looking after their lower teams.It can be argued that Grey Bloem lower teams have not and will not benefit from KZN compo.
@Grasshopper: I am happy with this. Pvt schools with their one team scenario do nothing for me. I take just as much interest in the lower teams as the A teams.
@All Black, it seems Hilton have scooped a Glenwood Under16 prospect already. They did is previously with Cameron Wright from Westville and Calvin Smith from Glenwood. It’s hard for these boys to turn down offers from schools like this. Obviously after shocking seasons in 2010 for both Hilton and Michaelhouse they both are ramping up the funds and getting in the best…..a real pity because gov schools can’t compete
It might end up being only gov schools playing each other due to this…..
@Gungets Tuft: Yep. Hilton and MHS seem to be shopping at govt schools from U16 age group up.
@Grasshopper: I like that. little mini tournament. Replace smaller schools with something like this. Mega pro would jump at televising this.
@All Black, I would be happy to look into sponsoring a trip down to the Cape for Glenwood or College, maybe partnering with a big wine brand in Paarl/Stellenbosch. I know it’s not ideal for an alcoholic product to be associated with schools, but they would be more interested if it was televised and held in Paarl/Stellenbosch. A brand like Muscle Science or Puma/Adidas might be interested too. Any sort of promotion on tv via field branding is usually something big brand advertisers like. A think flights for 600 boys would be too much, but a 2 day train trip including historical aspects like learning about Simon Van der Stel etc would be good. So the Boys leave on the Wednesday, arrive in Cape Town Thursday evening. Get on buses to Paarl/Stellenbosch to stay overnight and then use Friday for sightseeing in the Winelands and captains runs. Games on Saturday and train back Sunday arriving Monday evening…..
@All Black: My opposition to the rankings is, hopefully, well observed, so normally I don’t even comment on these threads. Got pulled in because someone was trying to make sense of them, where there is no sense to be made.
I prefer the thought of a National Sevens league. Less demanding physically than the 15-man games, can klap it in a long weekend, cheaper to get around, and lends itself a little more to the ethos of the SBR game. So, I wax lyrical about how it could work, but in reality I hope it never gets off the ground. It probably will, driven by sponsors who want more (TV!!) coverage, so at that stage lets make it sensible, with the boys interests in mind. Along with that, some really strong and enforced rules about recruitment and contracting to post-school unions!
@Grasshopper: I think College would love to play GW, Westville and PBHS home and away. Dont think they would go for a double header against any other up country sides as this is just too much travel. I say again, one of the private/smaller schools is going to be a casualty in the next few years with some of the big upcountry schools keen to travel to PMB. You want to get like minded schools with similar numbers playing each other. To carry on playing schools with half the amount of boys but having a ‘bought’ 1st team makes no sense. Another interesting opportunity would be to find a sponsor or fundraiser to allow for a once every 2 year flight to Cape Town to play one of the big three in Paarl or Stellenbosch. You cant just add these fixtures so somebody will fall away. A pvt school coach told me that he says a super school system starting with all the bigger schools meeting on a regular basis. Logistics are a problem but not impossible.
@Gungets, good stuff. This is similar to what I suggested a few years ago on 365. Thinking about it, I agree the knock out phase at provincial level would be unfair and add too many fixtures. The knockout at country level would work though. Hence as you say play the 9 traditionals fixtures locally for the league (so Glenwood, College, Kearsney, Westville, Northwood, Hilton, Michaelhouse, DHS and 2 others make the Top10). St Charles, Voortrekker, George Campbell, Port Natal and others could play in the Port Natal preseason tournament for the 9th and 10th spots. There are 9 provinces in SA, the top school in each province should go to the National Schools tournament. I would probably have a WP and a Boland team, so Boland (incl Paarl, Stellenbosch etc) would be the 10th team. There could be 2 pools of 5 and they all play each other, hence 4 games. The top in each pool then play the final. So that is 9 games locally, plus 5 games at the national tournament if the school reaches the final and then the 3 out of province ‘traditional fixtures’ (KES, PBHS & Affies for College) and 2 or 3 Easter festival fixtures…..19 or 20 in total….
@Gungets Tuft: Makes sense. I do know the schools try and avoid any type of competition/league, for good reasons. Imagine the buying etc that would go on then? Best scenario is to do away with all these rankings as they are what is now being used to market schools. Unfortunately never going to happen as there will always be someone doing unofficially. In my opinion it is either open up the entire system with leagues and official rankings or do away with them all together.
@All Black: Perhaps a domestic league system, then a “travel” section where we cross borders. Then a national champs where the top 2 schools in each region play each other in a knock out tournament?
Avoids the knock out in the province (adding to the already crowded calendar) and decides this guesswork for once and for all. It will in all likelihood lead to a formal “Premier” and “1st Division” system because you would need to limit the number of games domestically to about 14 (return type so = 8 schools) then your traditional tour games (in Colleges case KES, Affies, PBHS). 18 Fixtures, then the possible Knock-out Tournament – another 3 games. Makes 21 games …??!!??
@All Black, totally agree with you. On the Kearsney getting up there, yes playing stronger schools at 1st team level only. They need to test the whole school against tougher opposition, but because they don’t have the depth it would be a bloodbath lower down eg if Kearsney played Affies for example. I think when Glenwood played Kearsney they won every game except 1st team
. So as you say, every school is different with different needs. In KZN there are only 3 schools that can put our 25 plus teams on a Saturday, College, Glenwood and Westville. Therefore, for these schools to give ALL the boys a decent number of games in a season, they need to either play each other twice or look elsewhere. College play Glenwood twice, which is great! Therefore , there coud be an argument for Westville playing Glenwood twice. College have PBHS twice in a season, KES and have added Affies too, so your Under14E side will at least have 6 games in a season (Glenwood X 2, Westville, PBHS, KES & Affies). That is the reason why Glenwood added Affies and Grey Bloem to their fixture list to give the lower side more games. That said, choosing the top 2 schools in the country to do this against was probably not the best decision. I would have asked KES and PBHS instead, much fairer and closer games. Hopefully DHS and Northwood start to put out the same number of teams in the near future to give ALL the boys a couple more games…
I have noted all the arguments and opinions regarding rankings for some time now. Whilst some people live for these rankings I personally find them misleading and very disjointed. The Currie cup etc has a home and away system that has all teams playing the same opposition and having the same travel, breaks and stress on their players. Now you can see who is the best/worst etc. Until KZN, or any, schools for that matter have the same/similar opponents with the same/ similar travel and number of games, you are guessing. It is all very well and nice to compare schools based on head to head results and ignore what happens in between but it will never be free and fair. This is why so many people frown upon having rankings at school level. Each school has a different need when it comes to sport. The bigger schools have to look far and wide for opposition that matches them team for team. The smaller schools put all their focus on the 1st team and A teams and have the odd out of town fixtures. Does not mean any school is wrong or right but just that you are not comparing apples with apples. Kearsney now playing many of the big schools and can now be judged evenly. MHS and Hilton are not even close. Westville also starting to play out of their comfort zone but not there yet.
@All Black: Agree, but it would always be that way for the teams that did not top the log, a second shot costs them nothing. Pretty sure that House wouldn’t enjoy their successful season hinging on a knock-out game.
I think the College boys would have given their eye teeth to play MHS again this season.
@Grasshopper: Going to disagree with the concept of a Semi-final and final, because I actually don’t like the concept of a “Top 10”, even in the context of our 8 KZN teams (would like to see St Charles with fixtures against all the others, possible some other Durban teams as well – Port Natal and Campbell). Nowdays the boys have enough pressure without that hanging over their heads.
Even if I ever got used to the concept of a Top 10 (in other words if Black and Scholes can come up with a formulae for calculating it even 1/2 correctly!), I don’t believe that a league system should be reduced to a lottery at the end. A team ends top of the log – then they are the best, finish and klaar. Imagine being unbeaten the whole year, having your one bad game in the Semi and the whole season crashing down. Nein senor.
@Gungets and Star, I second your ranking, but if there was a semi-final and final that would make things more interesting as it will be knock-out rugby. The semis this year would have pitted House vs College and Glenwood vs Kearsney, maybe at Kings Park…
Gungets- Bang on the money. At the end of the day any result that went the other way eg Westville hanging on for 5 minutes preventing 2 converted tries against MH would have changed the picture drastically. It was that close and that was what gave the season its dramatic edge.
@Grasshopper: Shame man, sorry to hear that!! .. I escaped corporate life after 15 years of sticking pins in my eyes, I know what it is like. Hopefully it will not be for too long!!!
OK – I did the numbers, only because I could drop it in to a spreadsheet and pivot it. And even then it is not as simple as it looks, due to the return fixtures between College and Glenwood, as well as Hilton and House (not fair on the others to double those points, so I halved those). My records as follows, Beet will check my numbers.
School Won Drawn Lost Points
House 6 0 2 (div 2) 11 (Only one game against Hilton counts so / by 2)
Kearsney 5 0 2 10
Glenwood 4 2 2 9 (only 1 game against College counts)
College 4 2 2 9 (only 1 game against Glenwood counts)
Westville 4 0 3 8
Hilton 4 0 3 8 (below Westville because they lost to Westville)
DHS 1 0 6 2
Northwood 0 0 7 0
@Gungets, totally agree. We need a league system with points and a trophy to win each season…simple. I am hopefully going to be running a big business in SA later this year when I return and I will definitely like to sponsor something maybe with a few co sponsors….
@Grasshopper: Yet Hilton beat House, Westville beat Glenwood. Then College beat Westville, Hilton – and lost to Kearsney. Then Kearsney lost to Hilton.
And we try to make sense of it all. In KZN there is only one way to do it – a league system with 2 for a win and 1 for a draw. I couldn’t be assed to do it but I thought Beet has already made some headway with it.
@Ludz, yep but the opposition was not that strong this year. You have to admit Selborne were not at usual strength. Can you list the 17 you played?
Breaking news! Grey Bloem vs Glenwood cancelled due to closure of the N3 due to snow. A real pity! So funny in Europe 3cm of snow would not stop a thing….anyway….
@beet: The formula used by SAS penalise a team that loses to a side in a lower category.
@ boxkick- I think 2013 will be just as competitive and unpredictable. Kearsney and Westville on paper are strong. Hilton are on an buying spree and so who knows where that will end. College have at least 9 boys back that played last Saturday and will always put their best foot forward.GW have great depth this year (2nds and 3rds) and if they can get past the issues that complicated their structures this year(selection/strategy),they will be a real threat as they bring these boys through properly. DHS will have a competitive U16 through next year and will be able to challenge. MH will be able to dominate upfront although there might be a few gaps elsewhere. They do seem however to have the knack of filling positions from nothing. I think we all cannot wait for next year.
@Grasshopper: hopper do you even know what happened after you beat us at Kerf,we’ve won 7 more thereafter losing twice and a draw,our season in that context looks a bit like this
Played: 17
Won: 11
Lost: 05
Drawn: 01
We’ve had a pretty good season,Kearsney Festival was a bit of nightmare though and 3 game slump midway where we had the 2 losses and the draw,1 loss though was a game we deserved to win against Dale,2 more matches and 2 more wins(hopefully :-D)
@Beet, yep that is the fundamentals/basics of stats. There are just too many factors to consider to get a ranking system right (home or away, injuries, previous games, schedule, weather etc), hence the only way to determine an overall ‘winner’ is to play a league and then have knock-outs eg Beeld Trophy, Super 15 etc. Until this happens in KZN it’s all subjective especially in a season where it’s been so close and all the schools have lost a game. If Michaelhouse had gone unbeaten then they would obviously be top. My gut feel is, taking only KZN results, is Michaelhouse 1, Kearsney 2, Glenwood 3, College 4, Westville 5, Hilton 6, DHS 7, Northwood 8, George Campbell 9 and Port Natal 10…
@Greenhopper: BUT! The key with any ranking system or when analysing results is to not look at results in isolation eg. Westville beat Glenwood therefore must be ranked high) but rather to look at individual results in the context of how they fit into the whole big picture (eg. yes Westville beat Glenwood as well as Hilton, DHS, Louis Botha and EG Jansen but they also lost to Kearsney, Michaelhouse & College + Paul Roos, Dale, KES and Grey Bloem).
Sorry if this sounds obvious but one has to avoid looking just a single result.
This has come up plenty of times, I would suggest to Glenwood , next year play one game against Port Natal score 65 point or more for and 0 against and claim top spot from April, play no other games as the formula will work for you
Come on this formula makes mockery of rankings , what needs to be considered amongst the rankings is or somehow needs to work on who is played and number of games, I am sure it will be hard , but would certainly be more accurate than the rubbish published here
As For Natal Rankings , I agree with Greenwood, as to the TOP 2, slightly flavored in GW favor , sorry when considering that GW beat the school that beat ALL of the schools, they need to be weighted as still the Number 1 , when all I s done and dusted , They beat the team that beat everyone, yes they lost to some team but those teams lost to the MHS and Glenwood piped them on the day
@star: In my mind Michaelhouse are also the top KZN team in 2012. Not just on paper, from what I saw on the field as well.
@ star – yeah, with approx 50% less games…to me, its been a long time since SBR in general has been so competitive and unpredictable…well done to ALL the boys and coaches for giving us another great season of entertainment…long may this continue!!!!
Guys. There are no ifs and buts. Westville had a 12 point lead against MH(14) with 5 minutes to go and blew it. They lost to Dale(11) by 1 point when the kick head the pole. The book says they lost and there is no comments column.Also you play what is in front of you and things go in cycles. Why should a school be downgraded because of GWs crazy season?
The wins for the KZN top 8(against each other) are as follows:
Northwood 0
DHS 1
Hilton 4
GW 4
College 4
Westville 4
Kearsney 5
MH 6
MH are the top team in KZN for 2012. 50 % more wins than both College and GW.
@Grasshopper: Tied at the top works for me, but for GW and College to claim #1 just don’t work out, even considering their tougher season schedule.
@Pedantic, Kearsney played 17, lost 6 and won 11. Hmmmm, not sure if they could be considered the best in KZN, especially after last weekend. Congrats on your 3 SA Schools players, 2 of which are extremely talented but do not make a team, that can be shown from last weeks result. All of the top 4 have lost to each other so in my eyes it’s tied at the top between Michaelhouse, Kearsney, College and Glenwood based on KZN results…..
@Greenwood: Yeah and Kearsney beat them both convincingly
Add to that 3 SA Schools players and it’s pretty clear who the #1 KZN SBR team was in 2012!
Archie’s rankings are formula based. I think with all the ranking systems incl the one BHP does for another site, there is not enough emphasis on losing. IOW a school is rewarded for beating another but not marked down for losing a game (minus points).
Do me a favor. How can Hilton be ahead of College and Glenwood? Really makes a mockery of how a season actually is. Sorry but this just does not work.
Another decent Top 20 with some proper stats behind it; http://www.saschoolsports.co.za/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=683:rugby-rankings-for-the-4th-of-august-2012&Itemid=19
Pretty accurate, although Queens College should be lower. Glenwood dismantled them at Kearsney. Dale look a little high too considering they drew with Glenwood after being down by 20 odd points at half time. College look a little low to me, they should be mid 20’s and above Hilton. Hilton and Michaelhouse have played very few games so % win is higher. Glenwood have played 23 games and College 18, so should be rewarded for playing more against higher ranked opposition. Any school can play 12 easy games and go unbeaten or close to unbeaten. This is where ranking does not factor in things….
Glenwood & College Kzn’s Joint No. 1
This taking into account how many games were played and where
Michaelhouse played far fewer games mostly in Kzn and those played outside KZN were against weak opponents
So Green and White and the Red Black and white are unofficial Kzn champs AND 2 draws show a tie here!